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newtoboard
03-28-2015, 06:48 PM
To start off the discussion anybody have any info on the original SW Iranian language of Balochistan?

DMXX
03-28-2015, 07:20 PM
Excellent question. Firstly, is there anything for us to assume the language spoken in Balochistan (either in the Iranian or Pakistani side) was a SW Iranic language?

As there's evidently shared genetic heritage between Balochis and other southern Iranian or Indus groups, one would assume some linguistic continuity also took place. The proposal that Balochi completely replaced the dialects spoken in Iranian/Pakistani Balochistan is hard to accept.

I'll briefly read up on the linguistic components of the Balochi language later to see if there's any clues (morphology, vocabulary etc.)

Arbogan
03-28-2015, 09:20 PM
I wonder if there is a connection with khorasan. I've yet to find anything informative about the origin of balooch language. We only know that it was carried from the zagros range, considering it's NW and vocabulary similarities with Kurdish.

newtoboard
03-29-2015, 01:13 PM
I read about the name for this language a while ago (Lari? can't remember).

But I have some problems with the Zagros theory. NW Iranian languages were spoken as far east as Turkmenistan (Parthian). So why does the Zagros theory sound better rather than a migration from somewhere like Semnan, the Northern portion of North Khorasan or Southern Tukrmenistan. Encyclopedia Iranica seems to agree with that theory too.

Kurd
03-29-2015, 03:29 PM
Here is an excerpt from an article written by Professor Naela Quadri regarding Baloch history http://www.cpp.net.pk/2013/06/24/story-of-the-baloch-by-professor-naela-quadri-baloch/:

"The great Kurd nation is the ancestral or mother nation of Baloch. Kaldani, Adargani, Naroi, Brahoi, Zangana are the major ancient Kurd tribes that have multiplied and developed as today’s Baloch nation. Balochi (Brahoi, Rakhshani, Sulemani and Makurani) dialects are also spoken by Kurds till today. Few hundred years ago a famous Baloch scholar Akhund Saleh wrote a book ‘Kurdgal Namek’ that contains all the details of these Kurds and their fabulous ameers who lived in a very organized, united and respectable manner from Makran to Central Asia. Kurd ancestors have left their cherished memories as Gabrband the catch dams for water management,

Miri the Kurd forts and Karez the underground irrigation channels, these are found all around Makran, Jhalawan, Sarawan, Rakhshan, Sibi and Derajat. Khuzdar and Kalat always have been the capital of Balochistan. Baloch country has always been a welcoming homeland for all Kurd Balochs from Halab Syria, coast of Caspian Sea, and Mount Alboorz whenever they had serious problems with their neighbor nations.

Arrival of these Balochs strengthened local Kurd Baloch’s defensive and economic systems and contributed new shades of culture in the existed rich Kurd Baloch culture. This migration is of internal nature; Kurd Baloch people had issues in their habitats they migrated to Balochistan for a safer life with their own Balochs in majority and stronger position but sometimes historians mistakenly assume any one of these great migrations as the whole Baloch history that needs to be corrected. Balochs are living in Balochistan for thousands of years in a proven sequence of all ages pre Neolithic that is before stone age, Neolithic chalcolithic age when humans domesticated animals and started agriculture, till today’s scientific age, and in all these ages we have created almost same geometric designs as motifs, paintings, embroidery, rugs, carvings so it is not only a proof that we are the creators of Mehrgarh, but it is also a unique journey of creative art for eleven thousand years by Kurd Baloch women that is mostly made with geometric shapes and permanent colors these colors become more prominent on the rocks when rain falls on these paintings even today.

These red and black colors are used in pottery painting in Mehrgarh and many thousand years after in painting of Kurd Baloch heroes and same kind of symbols on rocks in the mountains of Balochistan and Kurdistan. Treasure hunters are busy in digging and destroying the archeological sites for greed they sell our history for few pennies they must be stopped, anywhere you find such thieves stop them; there should be a punishment for such thieves by community elders, because they are depriving us from our national pride.

Kalat was the capital of the Kurd Baloch country centuries before the Hakhmanshi dynasty of Faras. According to Kurdgal Namek the great Med Kochak Kurd is the great ancestor of the indigenous Balochs of the present Balochistan from his line eight Kurd Baloch brothers are the ancestors of the main basic Baloch tribes Adargani Kurd Baloch lived in Makran, Naroi Kurd Baloch in Seistan and Rakhshan till Nimroze and Hirat, Brahoi Kurd Balochs in Sarawan Jhalawan, in Kachhi they lived jointly for a stronger defensive strategy. Zangana Kurds lived in the north of Balochistan now in Afghanistan.

Another great Baloch tribe is Rind from the line of eminent Kaldani Kurds lived in Halab Syria. One of the grand migrations in Baloch history is of forty four Kaldani Kurd tribes collectively called the Rind in the leadership of Mir Jalal Khan migrated from Halab to Makran. The brave Rinds are living from Makran to Sibi and Derajat as one of the prominent Baloch tribes playing leading role in today’s Baloch independence movement as Marri and Bugti.

Around eight hundred years ago a brave Kurd chief Amir Kambar Rais put the foundation of the present Baloch dynasty. Amir Meero, Mir Omar, Mir Hammal Jiand Hote, Mir Chakar Rind, Noori Naseer Khan, Mir Mehrab Khan earned the status of great Baloch rulers in history".

The consensus is that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language.

alan
03-29-2015, 03:48 PM
I believe that the main P297 branch headed straight through south Siberia or the northernmost edge of central Asia/steppe corridor to the Urals and into the European steppe. R seems to originate in south-central Siberia, was there during the LGM - Mal'ta-and then appears in eastern Europe in the Mesolithic.

However, it stands to reason, given that R was not an arctic or far north lineage that at small part of it could also have passed west from Altai by a more southern route fusing what would later be trade routes along the north side of the mountain fringe of central/inner Asia and from there could have passed into India and also SW Europe. The latter probably explains the very upstream branch off from R and R1b in those areas. In general the desert zones east of the Caspian would have forces the choice of heading west on a latitude of either the north or south shore of the Caspian.

I do believe that the spread of pressure microblades may demonstrate this split actually happened because c. 9500BC this Siberian technique appeared simultaneously in the Urals and in Iran. The spread through eastern Europe was gradual c. 9500-7500BC and it appears to me that this technique was not far enough west c.9500BC for the Iranian examples to have come via the Caucasus. It seems much more likely to me, due to the deserts east of the Caspian that both the steppe corridor to the north and the Tarim kind of route were simultaniously used with the two groups parting around Altai. It all ties in rather well.

parasar
04-06-2015, 03:44 AM
Here is an excerpt from an article written by Professor Naela Quadri regarding Baloch history http://www.cpp.net.pk/2013/06/24/story-of-the-baloch-by-professor-naela-quadri-baloch/:

"The great Kurd nation is the ancestral or mother nation of Baloch. Kaldani, Adargani, Naroi, Brahoi, Zangana are the major ancient Kurd tribes that have multiplied and developed as today’s Baloch nation. Balochi (Brahoi, Rakhshani, Sulemani and Makurani) dialects are also spoken by Kurds till today. Few hundred years ago a famous Baloch scholar Akhund Saleh wrote a book ‘Kurdgal Namek’ that contains all the details of these Kurds and their fabulous ameers who lived in a very organized, united and respectable manner from Makran to Central Asia. Kurd ancestors have left their cherished memories as Gabrband the catch dams for water management,

Miri the Kurd forts and Karez the underground irrigation channels, these are found all around Makran, Jhalawan, Sarawan, Rakhshan, Sibi and Derajat. Khuzdar and Kalat always have been the capital of Balochistan. Baloch country has always been a welcoming homeland for all Kurd Balochs from Halab Syria, coast of Caspian Sea, and Mount Alboorz whenever they had serious problems with their neighbor nations.

Arrival of these Balochs strengthened local Kurd Baloch’s defensive and economic systems and contributed new shades of culture in the existed rich Kurd Baloch culture. This migration is of internal nature; Kurd Baloch people had issues in their habitats they migrated to Balochistan for a safer life with their own Balochs in majority and stronger position but sometimes historians mistakenly assume any one of these great migrations as the whole Baloch history that needs to be corrected. Balochs are living in Balochistan for thousands of years in a proven sequence of all ages pre Neolithic that is before stone age, Neolithic chalcolithic age when humans domesticated animals and started agriculture, till today’s scientific age, and in all these ages we have created almost same geometric designs as motifs, paintings, embroidery, rugs, carvings so it is not only a proof that we are the creators of Mehrgarh, but it is also a unique journey of creative art for eleven thousand years by Kurd Baloch women that is mostly made with geometric shapes and permanent colors these colors become more prominent on the rocks when rain falls on these paintings even today.

These red and black colors are used in pottery painting in Mehrgarh and many thousand years after in painting of Kurd Baloch heroes and same kind of symbols on rocks in the mountains of Balochistan and Kurdistan. Treasure hunters are busy in digging and destroying the archeological sites for greed they sell our history for few pennies they must be stopped, anywhere you find such thieves stop them; there should be a punishment for such thieves by community elders, because they are depriving us from our national pride.

Kalat was the capital of the Kurd Baloch country centuries before the Hakhmanshi dynasty of Faras. According to Kurdgal Namek the great Med Kochak Kurd is the great ancestor of the indigenous Balochs of the present Balochistan from his line eight Kurd Baloch brothers are the ancestors of the main basic Baloch tribes Adargani Kurd Baloch lived in Makran, Naroi Kurd Baloch in Seistan and Rakhshan till Nimroze and Hirat, Brahoi Kurd Balochs in Sarawan Jhalawan, in Kachhi they lived jointly for a stronger defensive strategy. Zangana Kurds lived in the north of Balochistan now in Afghanistan.

Another great Baloch tribe is Rind from the line of eminent Kaldani Kurds lived in Halab Syria. One of the grand migrations in Baloch history is of forty four Kaldani Kurd tribes collectively called the Rind in the leadership of Mir Jalal Khan migrated from Halab to Makran. The brave Rinds are living from Makran to Sibi and Derajat as one of the prominent Baloch tribes playing leading role in today’s Baloch independence movement as Marri and Bugti.

Around eight hundred years ago a brave Kurd chief Amir Kambar Rais put the foundation of the present Baloch dynasty. Amir Meero, Mir Omar, Mir Hammal Jiand Hote, Mir Chakar Rind, Noori Naseer Khan, Mir Mehrab Khan earned the status of great Baloch rulers in history".

The consensus is that Balochi is a northwestern Iranic language.

A few points:

I have not come across any Balochis from Aleppo or Mount Elbruz.
Caspian Sea perhaps - if we follow Shahnameh's scattered account.

If we go centuries before the Hakhmanshiyas, the concept of NW Iranian loses all geographic significance.

Linguistically NW Iranian is often closer to Indic that SW Iranian is.
Some examples -
knowledge: gyan/jan (Indic) zan (NW Iranian) dan (SW Iranian)
son-in-law: jamatar (Indic) zamat (NW Iranian) damad (SW Iranian)
iron: ayas (Indic) asin (NW Iranian) ahan (SW Iranian)

To me the connection between NW Iranian and Indic looks to be from the Parthian/Pahlavian period.

In the often incoherent accounts of Shahnameh too, there is an inkling of a Parthian connection. Jaguda (Zabolistan) was the homeland of Parthians. While Ferdausi also brings in the Kays/Hakhmanshiyas into the picture, the Kays were well before the Parthian period, though perhaps their name had survived in lore.

While legends have their place, there is no denying the fact that the first historical mention of the Pahlavas is in Rudradaman's Junagadh inscription.
"the minister Suvishakha, the son of Kulaipa, a Pahlava, who for the benefit of the inhabitants of the towns and country had been appointed by the king in this government to rule the whole of Anarta and Surashtra"
http://www.sdstate.edu/projectsouthasia/upload/JunagadhRockInscription-of-Rudradaman.pdf

newtoboard
04-06-2015, 11:07 PM
I believe that the main P297 branch headed straight through south Siberia or the northernmost edge of central Asia/steppe corridor to the Urals and into the European steppe. R seems to originate in south-central Siberia, was there during the LGM - Mal'ta-and then appears in eastern Europe in the Mesolithic.

However, it stands to reason, given that R was not an arctic or far north lineage that at small part of it could also have passed west from Altai by a more southern route fusing what would later be trade routes along the north side of the mountain fringe of central/inner Asia and from there could have passed into India and also SW Europe. The latter probably explains the very upstream branch off from R and R1b in those areas. In general the desert zones east of the Caspian would have forces the choice of heading west on a latitude of either the north or south shore of the Caspian.

I do believe that the spread of pressure microblades may demonstrate this split actually happened because c. 9500BC this Siberian technique appeared simultaneously in the Urals and in Iran. The spread through eastern Europe was gradual c. 9500-7500BC and it appears to me that this technique was not far enough west c.9500BC for the Iranian examples to have come via the Caucasus. It seems much more likely to me, due to the deserts east of the Caspian that both the steppe corridor to the north and the Tarim kind of route were simultaniously used with the two groups parting around Altai. It all ties in rather well.

Are we sure the desert zones were there back then? Didn't the Aral sea still empty into the Caspian back then via a large river? If I recall Michal said this was a very fertile forest steppe like region back then which is what lead to his original (I guess now disproven?) theory of R1b originating near the SE Caspian.

Rukha
04-09-2015, 10:03 PM
From the following book:

https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=1135797048

http://i.imgur.com/LRQrbmK.png

Parachi is still spoken in parts of Panjsher; it was probably more widespread in the past. It's interesting that it shares features with Northwest Iranian language groups.


Geographical distribution. Parāčī is an Iranian language now spoken northeast of Kabul in the Šotol valley, north of Golbahār, and in the Ḡočūlān and Pačaḡān branches of the Neǰrao valley, northeast of Golbahār. The names of the Šotol villages have been given by Farhādī as Sang-e Laḵšān, Māra (“the pasture”), and Deh-e Kalān (G. Morgenstierne, “Istālif and other place-names of Afghanistan,” BSOAS 33, 1970, pp. 350-52

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/afghanistan-vii-paraci


But from early times, the adjacent (Shotol and Hazara) and upper valleys (Paryan) joined the "front," even if their inhabitants did not call themselves Panjshiri (in Shotol they were even from a different ethnic group whose language is Parachi, not Persian).

https://books.google.com/books?id=TmMJnaMVN6oC&pg=PA90&dq=%22But+from+the+early+times,+the+adjacent+%28Sh otol+and+Hazara%29+and+upper+valleys+%28Paryan%29&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sismVc2IDoLRsAXgnoF4&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false



It is fascinating that both of these languages show many features in common with Persian, and they have been designated as southeast Iranian relict languages.34 Unfortunately it is not possible to determine when the ancestors of the Parachi and Ormuri speakers arrived in the mountains of Afghanistan, and exactly what relationship they had to the Pashtuns. If the relations between their tongues and New Persian could be clarified, the proto-Parachi and Ormuri speakers might have been an intrusion from the west in historic times. Or they might have been the original Iranian invaders into a Dardic-speaking area in very early times. A few concurrences in vocabulary between these languages and Brahui, Baluchi and Pashtu indicate little more than geographic proximity and complex borrowings which cannot be tied to historical events or even to the movements of peoples.

https://archive.org/stream/TheHistoryOfAncientIran1983/Frye1983TheHistoryOfAncientIran_djvu.txt

Arbogan
04-10-2015, 11:36 AM
From the following book:

https://books.google.ca/books?isbn=1135797048

http://i.imgur.com/LRQrbmK.png

I disagree with parthian having a signficiant influence on the local dialects of west-iran. It's which's value has been thrown around.

parasar
04-10-2015, 07:01 PM
I disagree with parthian having a signficiant influence on the local dialects of west-iran. It's which's value has been thrown around.

What is your opinion on Avestan and Pahlavi?
There is nothing in the Gathas (songs) that is geographically from modern w-Iran. I'm not sure if even the concept of poet kings - Kavis - ever existed there.

Arbogan
04-10-2015, 10:18 PM
What is your opinion on Avestan and Pahlavi?
There is nothing in the Gathas (songs) that is geographically from modern w-Iran. I'm not sure if even the concept of poet kings - Kavis - ever existed there.

Parthian was just a localized language of north-western iran. Orginating in todays Turkmenistan. I think it's hardly influential, if it had not been for the success of the parni tribes with filling the power vacuum left by the seleucids. Probably was more like an elite language than an actual influential language in the Iranian plateau. There were several north-west Iranian languages in the zagros range, before the modern ethnogenesis.

newtoboard
04-10-2015, 10:51 PM
Does anybody have a map depicting the spread of West iranian grey ware?

Arbogan
04-17-2015, 02:21 AM
https://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstream/handle/11222.digilib/127149/1_LinguisticaBrunensia_14-2013-1_5.pdf?sequence=1

(Page 51)



Clean your inbox, good sir.


[
Does anybody have a map depicting the spread of West iranian grey ware?


grey ware?

surbakhunWeesste
05-15-2015, 12:38 AM
This is a nice Balochi song and folk music from Balochistan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0A1WFBoBV4

Magnetic
05-15-2015, 03:12 AM
main baby doll ? :D

surbakhunWeesste
05-15-2015, 03:28 AM
main baby doll ? :D

ahahahah, Ikr. So there is this bollywood punjabi song which sounds similar but the lyrics ain't the same. Its a catchy tune tbh. I sing it often now :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkBDIxFlj2E

Magnetic
05-15-2015, 03:30 AM
lol but the baloch men dont sing such text right ? :D

like " yeah baby dance" etc

surbakhunWeesste
05-15-2015, 03:43 AM
lol but the baloch men dont sing such text right ? :D

like " yeah baby dance" etc

They are singing an old folk balochi song. The lyrics is basically the man declaring his love for her, how she looks and what he can do for her and other stuff.

The bollywood version is uber commercialized lolz with totally different lyrics.

redifflal
05-15-2015, 04:12 AM
Hey so is the Balochi version the original song? I thought they were remaking the Baby Doll song in Balochi traditional instrumentation. I think I actually hear the words "Baby Doll" when these guys sing it. By the way, there is no reason to think that the people making traditional folk music are not doing improvisations and looking to remake pop tunes with desi sounds. Those are also living and organic musical lines and they are not stuck in time unlike the general impression.

surbakhunWeesste
05-15-2015, 04:44 AM
Hey so is the Balochi version the original song? I thought they were remaking the Baby Doll song in Balochi traditional instrumentation. I think I actually hear the words "Baby Doll" when these guys sing it. By the way, there is no reason to think that the people making traditional folk music are not doing improvisations and looking to remake pop tunes with desi sounds. Those are also living and organic musical lines and they are not stuck in time unlike the general impression.

If you know bollywood, you would know how them muscians get "inspired" by songs from all around the world. I don't know if these baloch decided to improvise from a bollywood song. You can find ethnic baloch playing old hindi songs but new, I doubt it, not that its impossible. Throughout the song I don't hear any "babydoll" it would be interesting if you can point it exactly when. The song pretty much is like a story telling of him and this girl, love, weather and other stuff.

If you know anything about Balochis from Balochistan you would understand how they thrive to retain their own identity, culturally ethnically, many ethnic baloch from Baluchistan don't even acknowledge the country they live in. How is their music desi influenced?

Varun R
05-15-2015, 05:12 AM
"Inspired?" You are really being too kind, Zahra. Thanks for sharing the link. Will definitely share it with my brother.

redifflal
05-15-2015, 12:40 PM
If you know bollywood, you would know how them muscians get "inspired" by songs from all around the world. I don't know if these baloch decided to improvise from a bollywood song. You can find ethnic baloch playing old hindi songs but new, I doubt it, not that its impossible. Throughout the song I don't hear any "babydoll" it would be interesting if you can point it exactly when. The song pretty much is like a story telling of him and this girl, love, weather and other stuff.

If you know anything about Balochis from Balochistan you would understand how they thrive to retain their own identity, culturally ethnically, many ethnic baloch from Baluchistan don't even acknowledge the country they live in. How is their music desi influenced?

My bad, I thought I had heard "Baby Doll" when I had heard this Balochi song months ago. You're right they don't have it in there. Well, I for one hope that this is a remake of the Bollywood version. People for some reason think that these traditional musicians are "stuck in time", when they are also taking and remaking tunes according to their musical tastes.

I like this song of Sabaz Ali Bugti. Around 8:00 minutes, they incorporate a bit of Lal Meri Pat Rakhiyo melody into their song. It fits in very well to the whole melody.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsRNDKujw7g

I would consider traditional Balochi music within the realm of desi music, of course within the Indo-Iranian continuity frame.

surbakhunWeesste
05-15-2015, 01:35 PM
***"Shahbaz Qalandar" written by Bulleh Shah for Shahbaz Qalandar and the modified qaawalli by Noor Jahan and Nursat fateh ali khan is praisworthy to listen to as well.

EDIT: ***It was originally written by Amir Khusrow for Lal ShahBaaz Qalandar!

Farroukh
06-13-2015, 06:54 AM
Part of Baloch people origin from Levant - Anatolia. There are carriers of E-L792 subclade among Balochis. (E-L792 is typical fro Syria/Anatolia region).

parasar
08-20-2015, 04:02 PM
True, the relationship is there, both linguistic as well in some oral traditions and accounts.

The direction I could never figure out. The account of Ferdausi is very confusing to me, but the best I could figure out was that Baloch soldiers had gone to the Caucasus and Caspian with the Parthians/Pahalavs. Others consider the direction to be reversed, though some of the reasons are suspect. For example, Balochis had a tiger banner. Folk have considered this as an indication of a Caspian (tiger) origin (as if the tiger was not known in Balochistan!).

Posting this here, as I did not want to derail the Gedrrosia12 thread.
Extracts from Shahnama that I was referring to in the post:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main?url=pf%3Fauth%3D68%26work%3D001


Next came shrewd Ashkash,
Endowed with prudent heart and ready brain.
His troops were from Balúchistán and Kutch,
And very rams to fight. No one had seen
Their backs in battle or one finger mailless;
Their banner was a pard with claws projecting....

With tymbals, elephants, and many troops,
All eager for the fray, and mighty men
Brought from Kashmír, Kábulistán, Nímrúz,
All noble and the lustre of the world.
He had a banner like his valiant sire's—
That Rustam who could be surpassed by none—
With seven heads, “The heads as of a dragon
That had escaped from bonds,” thou wouldst have
said.
In favour like a fruitful tree he came,
And uttered many a blessing on the Sháh,
Who with a heart that joyed at Farámarz
Gave him much prudent rede and said to him:—
“The nursling of the elephantine chief
Will be pre-eminent among the people.
Thou art the son of wary-hearted Rustam,
Thou art from Zál—Sám's son—and Narímán.
Now is the land of Hindústán thine own,
All from Kannúj up to Sístán is thine;
...



The Sháh approved all that Ashkash had done As ruler of Makrán, and chose a chief, Bestowing on him many gifts and blessings. When with the noble chieftains of Írán Khusrau had left Makrán and drawn toward Chín, Came Rustam, son of Zál, the son of Sám


While Ferdausi is clearly off on his sequence of events mixing different eras, it appears that he is talking about the Ashkanians and their wars in the Caucasus as the Alans are mentioned.

khanabadoshi
08-20-2015, 04:52 PM
Posting this here, as I did not want to derail the Gedrrosia12 thread.
Extracts from Shahnama that I was referring to in the post:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/main?url=pf%3Fauth%3D68%26work%3D001




While Ferdausi is clearly off on his sequence of events mixing different eras, it appears that he is talking about the Ashkanians and their wars in the Caucasus as the Alans are mentioned.


The story I've heard is the reverse, as you've mentioned: Kurds + Baloch = one people ---> Mythical progeny of Hamza ibn Abu Talib and a Fairy before his death at the Ghazwa-e-Uhud ---> Fought in Karbala for Ali ibn Abi Talib against Yazeed and end up in Halab, Shaam (Allepo) ---> Major disruption or war (with Persians? Mongol invasions?) forces a split of populous to defend eastern and western borders OR to flee to safety (no one says which consistently) ---> Kurds end up where they are today; Baloch end up in Sistan then eventually Makran after fleeing from another leader called Abdulshams. This is just a story, oral tradition. In the tradition of the Baloch: Kurds are Baloch and Baloch are Kurds -- at the very least they believe the Kurds to be their closest relations. The belief is time and distance is why they are 2 groups and why the languages are different. Most Baloch believe Kurdish and Balochi was the same language, evolving over time into divergent identities.

Obviously, the beginning of the story is made up -- as many Muslim groups tend to make up a fantastic origin stories to make them more "Muslim". However, the mention of Halab is very consistent, the mention of the Caspian, the mention of Kerman and Sistan, and the mention of Abdulshams and his demand of a girl from the 44 bolaks. That's pretty much it. Even upon arrival to Makran much is shrouded in mystery -- all Baloch epics begin with Mir Chakar Khan Rind and his wars with Mir Gwahram Khan Lashari in the 15th century -- when they crossed the Indus. Everything before is rather conjecture. Mir Chakar is why there are Baloch in the Eastern Hills and Southern Punjab and Mir Lashari is why Baloch are in Sindh. These specific stories are very much apart of Makrani, Brahui and Baloch songs in Pakistan. However, I don't know to what extent they are prevalent in the the less populated areas of Sistan, as Irani Balochistan had a very popular revolt under Mir Dad Shah Baloch in the 1950s and it seems to me that much of their cultural reference refers back to him. Even many present day tribe names in Iran are based of his lineage. Either way, the detailed stories are from much later time periods; and while the main story is consistent, there is little historical proof of it. The only other consistent story is that of Mir Jalal Khan Baloch, first King of the Baloch, who united the the tribes into a confederacy in the 12th century. He had 4 sons and 1 daughter; Rind, Lashar, Hooth, Korai, and Jato -- Jato married his nephew Murad and almost all tribes claim lineage from these lines. (ie. Lashari, Jatoi ect..) After this time an accurate account of lineage began.

There is not much sense of time given in any story, so it's hard to even guess when to look for clues in history.

parasar
08-22-2015, 03:16 PM
...
Fought in Karbala for Ali ibn Abi Talib against Yazeed ...
There is not much sense of time given in any story, so it's hard to even guess when to look for clues in history.

A version of the first story is even told among Brahmans, so if nothing else it was popular! https://books.google.com/books?id=opBkfYKBOjsC&pg=PA175

As far as Ferdausi and his story about Ashkash, it dates to the Parthians. There is no contemporary notice of the early Parthians. Firdasusi put them in the era of Kaynians (the Kavis - preGreek) which to me appears wrong. For some reason the period after the war between Seleucus by Chandragupta is totally blank - nothing in Greek, Persian, or Aramaic sources from the period.

Even the Parthian empire may be a misnomer, as no non-western source uses that term. Arrian (in Parthika), along with others, who is writing about 400 hundred years later does in a way show this confusion on their origin.

The question is who was Arsakes? Ashek? Arshak? Ashkash?

Let's examine the historians:

1. Strabo
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/11I*.html
Strabo, about 250 years after Arsakes:
"Arsaces, a Scythian, with some of the Däae (I mean the Aparnians, as they were called, nomads who lived along the Ochus)"
"They say that the Aparnian Däae were emigrants from the Däae above Lake Maeotis [Azov]"
"others say that he was a Bactrian"

So essentially Strabo is not clear. Arsakes could be from north of Azov-Oxus, or Balkh.

2. Arrian
Two brothers, Arsaces and Tiridates, the descendants of Arsaces, the son of Phriapitus
or alternatively, Arsaces and Tiridates, satraps of Bactria, descended of Artaxerxes

So the account attributed to Arrian is also dubious.

3. Armenian Moses of Chorene
Writing about the Arcasid dynasty of Armenia about the first Arshak: Arshak ruled from Bahl Arawavtin in the land of the Kushans.

4.[B] Mirkhond
Who states he was not able to find anything on them so wrote based on prevalent stories calls them mulk at tawaif.

5. Ferdausi
Admits he has little knowledge and essentially was filling a historically dark period.
https://books.google.com/books?id=An3f1IvSbXUC&pg=PA529


Nevertheless, the consensus seems to be that Arsakes/Ashak was ruling Bactria, revolted against the Seleucids, and forced the Seleucids out from Persia.

This seems plausible since another Arsakes is also mentioned by the Greeks preceding the Seleucid period:

"At this time Arsakes,3 ruler of the country adjoining the dominions of Abisares, together with the brother of Abisares and his other relatives, came to him, bringing presents such as the Indians consider the most valuable, and some thirty elephants sent by Abisares. They represented that Abisares was prevented from coming in person by illness—a statement which the ambassadors sent by Alexander to Abisares corroborated. Alexander, readily believing that such was the case, made Abisares satrap of his own dominions, and moreover placed Arsakes under his jurisdiction."

khanabadoshi
08-23-2015, 02:05 AM
A version of the first story is even told among Brahmans, so if nothing else it was popular! https://books.google.com/books?id=opBkfYKBOjsC&pg=PA175

As far as Ferdausi and his story about Ashkash, it dates to the Parthians. There is no contemporary notice of the early Parthians. Firdasusi put them in the era of Kaynians (the Kavis - preGreek) which to me appears wrong. For some reason the period after the war between Seleucus by Chandragupta is totally blank - nothing in Greek, Persian, or Aramaic sources from the period.

Even the Parthian empire may be a misnomer, as no non-western source uses that term. Arrian (in Parthika), along with others, who is writing about 400 hundred years later does in a way show this confusion on their origin.

The question is who was Arsakes? Ashek? Arshak? Ashkash?

Let's examine the historians:

1. Strabo
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/11I*.html
Strabo, about 250 years after Arsakes:
"Arsaces, a Scythian, with some of the Däae (I mean the Aparnians, as they were called, nomads who lived along the Ochus)"
"They say that the Aparnian Däae were emigrants from the Däae above Lake Maeotis [Azov]"
"others say that he was a Bactrian"

So essentially Strabo is not clear. Arsakes could be from north of Azov-Oxus, or Balkh.

2. Arrian
Two brothers, Arsaces and Tiridates, the descendants of Arsaces, the son of Phriapitus
or alternatively, Arsaces and Tiridates, satraps of Bactria, descended of Artaxerxes

So the account attributed to Arrian is also dubious.

3. Armenian Moses of Chorene
Writing about the Arcasid dynasty of Armenia about the first Arshak: Arshak ruled from Bahl Arawavtin in the land of the Kushans.

4.[B] Mirkhond
Who states he was not able to find anything on them so wrote based on prevalent stories calls them mulk at tawaif.

5. Ferdausi
Admits he has little knowledge and essentially was filling a historically dark period.
https://books.google.com/books?id=An3f1IvSbXUC&pg=PA529


Nevertheless, the consensus seems to be that Arsakes/Ashak was ruling Bactria, revolted against the Seleucids, and forced the Seleucids out from Persia.

This seems plausible since another Arsakes is also mentioned by the Greeks preceding the Seleucid period:

"At this time Arsakes,3 ruler of the country adjoining the dominions of Abisares, together with the brother of Abisares and his other relatives, came to him, bringing presents such as the Indians consider the most valuable, and some thirty elephants sent by Abisares. They represented that Abisares was prevented from coming in person by illness—a statement which the ambassadors sent by Alexander to Abisares corroborated. Alexander, readily believing that such was the case, made Abisares satrap of his own dominions, and moreover placed Arsakes under his jurisdiction."

You have delved much deeper than the knowledge I have off the top of my head! I will have to research and study before I can actually comment. Almost everything I write on this site is based on the culminations of books I've read almost 3 years ago...or my own personal observations and experiences... also from years ago... safe to say, I'm a little rusty. :)

Aceharlock
04-03-2017, 06:30 PM
Part of Baloch people origin from Levant - Anatolia. There are carriers of E-L792 subclade among Balochis. (E-L792 is typical fro Syria/Anatolia region).

Interesting.

Mingle
02-01-2018, 04:47 PM
Before Balochi, Persian (Southeast Iranic) was most likely spoken in Balochistan based on the geography of the region and what I recall hearing before. It borders Kerman (Carmania) which was described as a Persian land since antiquity. There's not any reason why Northwest Iranic would have been spoken in Balochistan before Balochi. Balochi is the first NW Iranian language in the region.