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View Full Version : YFull verifies that earliest offshoot of I-l161 is Polish



lgmayka
03-28-2015, 08:38 PM
The new version of YFull's I-L161 haplotree (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L161.1/) clearly verifies that the earliest offshoot of L161 lacks the S2639 SNP. Both samples of this early offshoot belong to a single Polish surname. The early offshoot clade has been named I-Y13330. It branched off roughly 6800 years ago.

Mul
06-07-2015, 08:37 PM
The two samples belong to the same family name . They also are L1498- and PF4135- at the I2a project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults . This tells me that the others mentioned within this group at the I2a project will be the same .
These other names come from Spain Germany Bulgaria England
My guess is that I-Y13330 is the same as L1498- and PF4135-.
What this suggests is that we are not sure where I-Y13330 originated . I have a file with some from Italy Turkey also .

lgmayka
06-08-2015, 01:26 AM
They also are L1498- and PF4135- at the I2a project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults . This tells me that the others mentioned within this group at the I2a project will be the same .
That doesn't follow. The real question is whether the others are positive or negative at S2639.


I have a file with some from Italy Turkey also.
These are known to be L1498- PF4135- ? Can you persuade them to order the Big Y, or at least to test S2639 ?

eastara
08-08-2015, 03:07 AM
The 3 Bulgarian Turks L161 have an origin from Komuniga, East Rhodope mountains. Now a YSEQ STR test has revealed a Pomak(Bulgarian Muslim) from South West Rhodope mountains belonging to the same cluster.
http://dna.kumbarov.com/

The Turks were tested as L161+, L1498- only, but I hear that the Pomak will order the YSEQ I2 downstream. Then we will now if they are Y13338+ and belong to the same branch as the Poles. For now an autochthonous Thracian origin is suggested, but could it be a Slavic connection?
Anyway, these are not descendants of Crusaders or Saxon miner as used to be the explanation for old I2b1, for example.

gravetti
08-08-2015, 07:08 AM
eastara:"For now an autochthonous Thracian origin is suggested..."

Is there any autochtonus Thracian aDNA?

eastara
08-08-2015, 08:46 AM
There were several old Thracians from Bulgarian territory tested, but unfortunately no Y haplogroups were reported, only mtDNA and low covarage autosomal DNA.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-08-2015, 09:03 AM
Many more are on the way, including the famous cemetery from Varna (although it's Copper Age, thus not really "Thracian").

eastara
08-08-2015, 09:25 AM
I hope so, I also heard Haak and his team are preparing a new study with more samples form the Balkans, including Greece.

Kale
08-08-2015, 01:06 PM
There were several old Thracians from Bulgarian territory tested, but unfortunately no Y haplogroups were reported, only mtDNA and low covarage autosomal DNA.

I fairy remember someone analyzing the raw data and getting the y-dna that way. This is the same study with specimens P192.1 and T2g2 right? I remember 1 was H2, another was E, I think one might have been female, and the last G/I.

brygian
08-08-2015, 02:09 PM
The 3 Bulgarian Turks L161 have an origin from Komuniga, East Rhodope mountains. Now a YSEQ STR test has revealed a Pomak(Bulgarian Muslim) from South West Rhodope mountains belonging to the same cluster.
http://dna.kumbarov.com/

The Turks were tested as L161+, L1498- only, but I hear that the Pomak will order the YSEQ I2 downstream. Then we will now if they are Y13338+ and belong to the same branch as the Poles. For now an autochthonous Thracian origin is suggested, but could it be a Slavic connection?
Anyway, these are not descendants of Crusaders or Saxon miner as used to be the explanation for old I2b1, for example.

This is YSEQ kit 1384 and I am the owner of it. I would like to thank eastara for donating funds for testing this kit deeper. Expect the results in the Haplogroup I2a group: https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=80

brygian
08-13-2015, 06:33 PM
1384 Y13338 ChrY 18948775 18948775 G+

https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=80

lgmayka
08-13-2015, 10:54 PM
1384 Y13338 ChrY 18948775 18948775 G+

https://www.yseq.net/group_alleles.php?gid=80
Great! Now we need a Big Y or FullGenomes test, in order to determine the TMRCA of #1384 and the Polish family.

Mul
09-23-2015, 09:41 PM
brygain It looks like you kit 1384 is positive for Y13338.


Edit
Just noticed this second page and do not seem to be able to delete this post

inaler
09-26-2015, 12:17 PM
Ancient people in Thrace(Mountains) was called as Thracian and lineage was Dinaro-Nordic. So, they came from North just after bronze age. And, their culture was Unetice. That is why if you read articles about ancient skeletons from Tumulus in Macedonia or Thrace, most probably these skeletons does NOT belong to Thracian lineages. And they are most probably Macedonian. Thracians usually burn dead bodies because of their culture. They do not burial bodies.

So ,when you'r trying to find something about this topic(Thracian) please notice that,
---Skeleton from tumulus most probably Macedonian. which is completely different paternal lineage...
---For a Thracian lineage, Unetice Culture must be considered. I share a link for Unetice paternal lineage below and many of results are L161+.(I-L161 is the only candidate with old TMRCA of Haplogroup I and it is a subclade of Dinaric haplogroup I2 ). And L161 was detected in Thrace. However, M223 also must be considered.
---And also consider Dinaro-Nordic paternal lineage. Here, again L161 is important since it came from Northern parts of Central Europe. It could be called as Dinaro-Nordic subclade easily.
Unetice DNA Results are below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByJ3Y3dfyhDlTVYtZ0tIOEhaeG8/view?pli=1

Here's a summary list of clade ages back to their MRCAs in y haplogroup "I" : P37.2/M26 --- 7500 years---------old tmrca but not related geographically
S31(xM253xP37.2xS23) --- 7200 years
P37.2/M423---L161-Isles-B --- 6600 years----------------old tmrca and proper
M223/P78-Continental-3 --- 6000 years
M253-ASgeneric --- 4000 years--------young, not possible
M253-Norse --- 3000 years------------too young
M253-NuN14 --- 3300 years------------too young
M253-uN1 --- 3150 years------------too young
P37.2/L233-Western --- 3000 years------------too young
P37.2/M423---L621-Dinaric ---2550 years------too young( mainly Slavic lineage)
M253-uN1315 --- 2100 years------------too young
M253-uN2 --- 1700 years------------too young
M253-uN2a --- 2200 years------------too young
M253-Bothnia --- 2100 years ------------too young

inaler
09-26-2015, 12:21 PM
Ancient people in Thrace(Mountains) was called as Thracian and lineage was Dinaro-Nordic. So, they came from North just after bronze age. And, their culture was Unetice. That is why if you read articles about ancient skeletons from Tumulus in Macedonia or Thrace, most probably these skeletons does NOT belong to Thracian lineages. And they are most probably Macedonian. Thracians usually burn dead bodies because of their culture. They do not burial bodies.

So ,when you'r trying to find something about this topic(Thracian) please notice that,
---Skeleton from tumulus most probably Macedonian. which is completely different paternal lineage...
---For a Thracian lineage, Unetice Culture must be considered. I share a link for Unetice paternal lineage below and many of results are L161+.(I-L161 is the only candidate with old TMRCA of Haplogroup I and it is a subclade of Dinaric haplogroup I2 ). And L161 was detected in Thrace. However, M223 also must be considered.
---And also consider Dinaro-Nordic paternal lineage. Here, again L161 is important since it came from Northern parts of Central Europe. It could be called as Dinaro-Nordic subclade easily.
Unetice DNA Results are below:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByJ...eG8/view?pli=1

Here's a summary list of clade ages back to their MRCAs in y haplogroup "I" : P37.2/M26 --- 7500 years---------old tmrca but not related geographically
S31(xM253xP37.2xS23) --- 7200 years
P37.2/M423---L161-Isles-B --- 6600 years----------------old tmrca and proper
M223/P78-Continental-3 --- 6000 years
M253-ASgeneric --- 4000 years--------young, not possible
M253-Norse --- 3000 years------------too young
M253-NuN14 --- 3300 years------------too young
M253-uN1 --- 3150 years------------too young
P37.2/L233-Western --- 3000 years------------too young
P37.2/M423---L621-Dinaric ---2550 years------too young( mainly Slavic lineage)
M253-uN1315 --- 2100 years------------too young
M253-uN2 --- 1700 years------------too young
M253-uN2a --- 2200 years------------too young
M253-Bothnia --- 2100 years ------------too young

Barellalee
09-30-2015, 07:06 AM
Is the current opinion still that L233 Western (3,000 ybp) started off in the Germany area and-or in Germanic tribes? My paternal line is from Yorkshire, England and I'm I2a Western, but there still isn't much info.

lgmayka
09-30-2015, 09:38 AM
Is the current opinion still that L233 Western (3,000 ybp) started off in the Germany area and-or in Germanic tribes?
YFull estimates a TMRCA of only 1950 years (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L233/) for the I-L233 samples seen so far.

Barellalee
10-02-2015, 02:18 AM
Thank you. So by these Haplotypes, and its age, it still does appear that L233 began somewhere in the Germany area, and ended up in the Isles afterwards.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-02-2015, 05:15 AM
Thank you. So by these Haplotypes, and its age, it still does appear that L233 began somewhere in the Germany area, and ended up in the Isles afterwards.

I don't think it's possible to make any solid conclusions based a modern sampling. On the whole L1287 groups and their derivatives were spread widely (but probably thinly) in pre-Neolithic Europe .

lgmayka
10-02-2015, 10:15 AM
On the whole L1287 groups and their derivatives were spread widely (but probably thinly) in pre-Neolithic Europe .
What evidence do you have for this very specific bold assertion, given that L1287 is today represented only by L233 (with a TMRCA of only 1950 years) and a handful of mostly German/Prussian L1287+ L233- (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=yresults) ? Have any ancient examples of L1287+ been found?

Gravetto-Danubian
10-02-2015, 10:46 AM
I thought YFull date L1287 to c. 18 kya ? (Ie formed, not the TMRCA of modern groups).
Are some of the Swedish HG, and possibly KO1, L1287* ?

lgmayka
10-02-2015, 02:35 PM
I thought YFull date L1287 to c. 18 kya ? (Ie formed, not the TMRCA of modern groups).
I-L1287 split from its sibling I-L158 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L1287/) over 18,000 years ago. But of course, we don't know where that occurred, nor where they wandered in the many succeeding millennia.


Are some of the Swedish HG, and possibly KO1, L1287* ?
Genetiker asserts (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/y-snp-calls-for-the-motala-genomes/) that Motala-9 is L1287+ . But even if that is correct, it does not tell us whether L1287 was once "spread widely."

Barellalee
10-03-2015, 09:40 PM
We don't know where L1287 occurred, I agree, however, I am L233, so I suppose this is what I was referring to by I2a1c. As we know, L233 is relatively young, and seems to appear mostly in NW Continental Europe and the British Isles. Of course, more Brits are Testing than Germans, etc. So when I was asking if I2a1c was still thought to be a Continental "son", and perhaps a Germanic transmit to the Isles, I meant the young L233. All of my traceable Paternal Line was from Yorkshire, England, and our original surname was Brooks (pre Boer War).

Gravetto-Danubian
10-04-2015, 12:28 AM
I-L1287 split from its sibling I-L158 (http://yfull.com/tree/I-L1287/) over 18,000 years ago. But of course, we don't know where that occurred, nor where they wandered in the many succeeding millennia.

Genetiker asserts (https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/y-snp-calls-for-the-motala-genomes/) that Motala-9 is L1287+ . But even if that is correct, it does not tell us whether L1287 was once "spread widely."

I have a suspicion that some of the Hungarian samples deemed P37 might be L1287 (source tba). And given the open networks of foragers, my statement that L1287 might have had a wide but thin distribution in pre-Neolithic Europe appears appropriate ....:)

gravetti
10-04-2015, 06:27 AM
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2015-10/1443815038

Ken Nordtvedt:

Seems today the BigY for an extremely early L161 branch is reported out?
And interesting place of origin--- Turkey!

Krasimir Sakaliev:

I found the following SNPs in his VCF file which he shares with the two
Polish guys at http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y13330/

Y13576 8366419 G A
Y13577 8507893 T A
Y13578 8561878 T C
Y13580 8594972 G A
Y13583 9003284 C T
Y13585 13988450 C G
Y13592 15691096 T C
Y13593 15828757 A G
Y13573 17670241 G A
Y13335 17956828 G A
Y13594 18706051 A C
Y13338 18948775 T G
Y13600 21727526 A C
Y13601 21822782 T A
Y13603 23326756 C T
Y13605 23957180 T A
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2015-10/1443888005

Gravetto-Danubian
10-06-2015, 10:17 AM
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2015-10/1443815038

Ken Nordtvedt:

Seems today the BigY for an extremely early L161 branch is reported out?
And interesting place of origin--- Turkey!

Krasimir Sakaliev:

I found the following SNPs in his VCF file which he shares with the two
Polish guys at http://yfull.com/tree/I-Y13330/

Y13576 8366419 G A
Y13577 8507893 T A
Y13578 8561878 T C
Y13580 8594972 G A
Y13583 9003284 C T
Y13585 13988450 C G
Y13592 15691096 T C
Y13593 15828757 A G
Y13573 17670241 G A
Y13335 17956828 G A
Y13594 18706051 A C
Y13338 18948775 T G
Y13600 21727526 A C
Y13601 21822782 T A
Y13603 23326756 C T
Y13605 23957180 T A
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2015-10/1443888005

He's not Turkish . He's Bulgarian

Gravetto-Danubian
10-10-2015, 07:12 AM
It looks like Neolithic Anatolia had haplogroup I also (in addition to C)
Let's see which specific clades they were ....

lyakh
05-04-2016, 04:36 PM
In Yfull we have now one sample from Bulgaria (I-Y13331*) and two samples from Poland (mentioned in first post in the topic) - I-Y13330 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y13331/).
It is interesting who bearers of this haplogroup were about 3000 years ago. I suppose that they might be members of "Pre-Slavic" population.
TMRCA of I-Y13331* and I-Y13330 is much larger (about 1600 years) than TMRCA of very popular I-CTS10228 (https://yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/).

joeflood
08-16-2016, 11:35 AM
It is always a mistake to say 'earliest offshoot'. It usually means 'least studied offshoot' or 'offshoot with the least branches'. This one actually has a much more recent TMRCA than the main S2639 and is Bronze (4000bp). It is generally eastern European - Poland Bulgaria and Germany. It is a bit of an anomaly

lgmayka
08-17-2016, 01:15 PM
It is a bit of an anomaly
That is exactly why some people call it an offshoot--because it is not the most populous, most studied, or most commonly expected branch. In colloquial terms, it appears to be "a branch that grows on one of the main stems (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/offshoot)."

The splitting of L161 into Y13331 and S2639 is indeed the earliest branching of that clade. Such branch points on the haplotree can be very useful in tracking (or at least hypothesizing) prehistoric migrations.