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GailT
10-29-2012, 03:55 AM
We currently have 113 FMS test results from Finland (including the samples from the 1000 Genomes Project). It is interesting that there is very little diversity in the Finnish U5 distribution, especially when considering U5b. Nearly 40% of the Finnish U5 are in U5b1b1a (the "Saami motif"). This subclade is also found in eastern Europe and might have arrived in Finland by an eastern European route (perhaps along with haplogroup V as suggested by Tambets et al., 2004 (link) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181943/). In that paper they refer to the Saami motif with 16144 as "U5b1b1".

23% of the Finnish U5 samples are in U5b1b2. This group seems to have a more western origin with 3 samples from Ireland or England and one each from Germany, Norway and Sweden. It might have arrived in Finland by a more westerly route. Perhaps some of the diversity in U5b was lost by bottlenecks and drift, although perhaps migration and replacement by eastern European and Asian mtDNA haplogroups are partly responsible for the lack of diversity in U5b in Finland.


Finland 113
U5b1 0
U5b1a 0
U5b1b 0
U5b1b1a 45 39.8%
U5b1b2 26 23.0%
U5b1c 0
U5b1d 0
U5b1e 0
U5b1f 0
U5b1g 0
U5b2a 11 9.7%
U5b2b 0
U5b2c 0
U5b3 0

U5a1a1 3 2.7%
U5a1b 8 7.1%
U5a1* 0
U5a2a1 15 13.3%
U5a2b 3 2.7%
U5a2* 2 1.8%

J Man
10-29-2012, 11:19 AM
My father's direct maternal line os from Finland and he is U5b1b1a1 according to 23andme. His maternal line ancestors came from the Isojoki area of Finland. It seems that U5b1b1a1 is quite limited to Finns and the Saami people.

DEM
11-15-2012, 07:43 PM
[QUOTE=GailT;2418] Nearly 40% of the Finnish U5 are in U5b1b1a (the "Saami motif").

I am completely new to this, having received my results from 23andme only recently. My mtDNA is U5b1b1a.

My mother's parents were both from Norway and are Norwegian for many generations. Does the fact that I have the Saami motif mean that somewhere along the maternal line, I have a Saami ancestor?
Thank you

GailT
11-16-2012, 04:41 AM
My mother's parents were both from Norway and are Norwegian for many generations. Does the fact that I have the Saami motif mean that somewhere along the maternal line, I have a Saami ancestor?
Thank you

I don't think we can answer this question yet. U5b1b1a is found at large percentages among the Saami, but it is also found throughout Scandinavia, and also at low percentages in eastern Europe. The key question is how did it arrive in Scandinavia - did it arrive with the Saami? Or did it arrive by another route and was then adopted into the Saami? I think the latter explanation might be more likely, but ultimately I hope testing of ancient DNA will provide a more certain answer.

One thing is certain - many of the early conclusions about mtDNA haplogroup origins that were based on present day distributions were overly naive and, at least in some cases, almost certainly incorrect.

GailT
11-20-2012, 05:22 AM
There is extensive ancient DNA testing in NE Europe/NW Russsia, and also an 18th century Saami cemetery, from a PhD dissertation just made available (link) (http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/74221).

What remains uncertain is whether U5b1b1a is found exclusively in the Saami, or if it is found throughout Scandinavians. It could have been adopted into the Saami from the non Saami population, and then become dominant among the Saami from population bottlenecks and drift. The western migration seems unlikely because the other present day reservoir of U5b1b1a is in eastern Europe, so perhaps a migration from eastern Europe via the Baltic region is more likely.



Genetic continuity with modern-day Saami was evident for the 18th
century A.D. (200 yBP) Chalmny-Varre individuals. The widespread modern-day
distribution of U5b1 and V lineages makes it difficult to identify the places of origin
for the founders of the Saami (Tambets et al., 2004). Despite its clear association with
Saami ancestry, the ‘Saami motif’ has also been found at low frequency (below 1%) in
a wide range of non-Saami populations of Europe. This justified sampling ancient
populations of NE-E such as Uznyi Oleni Ostrov/Popovo, and Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov
in the modern-day homeland of the Saami. The absence of these lineages in ancient
populations of European foragers suggests that the migration(s) that brought U5b1 and
V north occurred later than the Bronze Age or that their genetic impact on the
surrounding populations was weak. Another possibility is that these lineages reached
Fennoscandia from western Europe along the western coast of Norway, hence in
isolation from the post-glacial populations of east and north east Europe (Tambets et
al., 2004). The only way to test this hypothesis and track Saami-specific lineages is by
sampling ancient populations along the proposed alternative western migration route
into sub-arctic Europe. This would also provide insight into the demographic history
of the Saami that is difficult to reconstruct on the basis of modern genetic data alone.
Saami mtDNA diversity has supposedly been strongly influenced by founder events,
multiple bottlenecks and reproductive isolation, probably in response to the
challenging conditions of life in the subarctic taiga/tundra. Unless changes in their
genetic makeup are followed in temporally sampled populations, the origins and
population history of the Saami will certainly remain veiled with mystery.

J Man
11-21-2012, 02:53 PM
There is extensive ancient DNA testing in NE Europe/NW Russsia, and also an 18th century Saami cemetery, from a PhD dissertation just made available (link) (http://digital.library.adelaide.edu.au/dspace/handle/2440/74221).

What remains uncertain is whether U5b1b1a is found exclusively in the Saami, or if it is found throughout Scandinavians. It could have been adopted into the Saami from the non Saami population, and then become dominant among the Saami from population bottlenecks and drift. The western migration seems unlikely because the other present day reservoir of U5b1b1a is in eastern Europe, so perhaps a migration from eastern Europe via the Baltic region is more likely.

Very interesting stuff Gail indeed. Thank you for sharing. Do they give the frequencies of U5b1b1a1 and V in these Saami samples from the 18th century cemetery? Also do they break the subclades down to the level such as ''U5b1b1a1''? Or are they just listed as U5b?

Iraqain
10-18-2013, 06:32 AM
I am U5b1b1a from Iraq.

GailT
10-18-2013, 06:40 AM
I am U5b1b1a from Iraq.

If you tested at FTDNA, you can join the U5 and U5b FGS project, and I can check to see if you match any of the project members. U5b1b1a is also found at low frequency throughout eastern Europe. It's interesting that were not U5b1b1a samples in the recent Danish study which includes 164 U5 samples. That might also indicate a relatively recent migration from eastern Europe.

Iraqain
10-18-2013, 06:47 AM
I tested with 23andme not FTDNA. I got 0.4% Finnish on my Ancestry Composition.

Iraqain
10-18-2013, 06:50 AM
If you tested at FTDNA, you can join the U5 and U5b FGS project, and I can check to see if you match any of the project members. U5b1b1a is also found at low frequency throughout eastern Europe. It's interesting that were not U5b1b1a samples in the recent Danish study which includes 164 U5 samples. That might also indicate a relatively recent migration from eastern Europe.

I tested with 23andme not FTDNA. I got 0.4% Finnish on my Ancestry Composition.

Alessio B. Bedini
10-18-2013, 09:22 AM
My mtDNA is U5b1b.
My maternal ancestors have always lived in Italy since at least the sixteenth century
I want to know when they came to Italy ...

Rathna
10-18-2013, 09:49 AM
Hi Alessio. Being your U5b1b the ancestor of U5b1b1a and U5b1b2 and finding we one Tuscan in the 1KGP with a very ancient U5b1a (with T7028C but not T15097C) and being this the situation in Finland

Finland 113
U5b1 0
U5b1a 0
U5b1b 0
U5b1b1a 45 39.8%
U5b1b2 26 23.0%

perhaps you should ask when your haplogroup came out from Italy and not when "came to".

Alessio B. Bedini
10-18-2013, 09:53 AM
Maybe you're right ..

jewelsie
12-06-2013, 07:23 PM
My father's mtDNA is also U5b1b1a1 and his entire family is from Finland. We don't know the area but your post helps! Thanks!

newtoboard
12-06-2013, 07:35 PM
Gail do you have more information about the U5b found in South Asia? Do you think it represents pre IE ancestry from the Kazakh steppe that some have speculated on or the movements of IE speakers (whether they be Tocharians or Indo-Iranians)?

GailT
12-06-2013, 09:45 PM
I tested with 23andme not FTDNA. I got 0.4% Finnish on my Ancestry Composition.

Anyone who tested at 23andMe can upload their results to James Lick's mthap tool to check if there are any "extra" mutations that might show a closer match to subclades or individuals in the U5 project project. If you send me the list of extra mutations, I'll compare the results to the project and GenBank. In some cases, 23andMe mtDNA results will be inconclusive because the full genome is not tested.

Iraqain - it is interesting that your U5b1b1a is in Iraq. It shows how highly mobile our ancestors were. U5b1b1a is also found widely distributed Scandinavia and in eastern Europe, which is where I would guess that it originated, perhaps around 3500 years ago.

GailT
12-06-2013, 09:59 PM
Gail do you have more information about the U5b found in South Asia? Do you think it represents pre IE ancestry from the Kazakh steppe that some have speculated on or the movements of IE speakers (whether they be Tocharians or Indo-Iranians)?

I don't have any more specific information on the place of ancestry for this person. Here is what I wrote on the U5 project page summary: "We have two U5b2* FMS results, one from England, and one from India with 8 extra mutations that is consistent with an age estimate of about 20,000 years for U5b2, and this could represent a branch of U5b2 that migrated to south Asia during the ice age. It would be very, very interesting to see more U5b2 test results from south Asia."

Behar et al 2012 estimate the age of U5b2 to be about 20,000 ybp. Given that no similar samples have been found in Europe, I would guess an LGM migration is possible for this lineage of U5b2.

Also, we now have two closely related U5b2* samples for the lineage from England. (They differ by one HVR1 mutation). So this shows that extremely rare lineages might remain to be discovered within Europe. And I have not yet given up on the possibility of a surviving Neandertal or Denisovan mtDNA lineage. It seems extremely unlikely, but given that we are still finding new lineages that date to 20,000 ybp, perhaps it is not impossible.

GailT
12-06-2013, 10:39 PM
My mtDNA is U5b1b.
My maternal ancestors have always lived in Italy since at least the sixteenth century
I want to know when they came to Italy ...

Alessio - did you test at FTDNA or 23andMe? If you tested at 23andMe you can try using mthap to check for extra mutations.

The greatest diversity today of U5b1 is in the Iberian peninsula, and I think it is likely that it originated there during the LGM. Of course it is possible that U5b1 could have been more widespread at that time. It would be interesting to see your full mtDNA genome results to see if you cluster with others from Italy or elsewhere.

Among nearly 170 FMS U5b1b samples, only one is U5b1b* (GU296644 from Russia published by Malyarchuck et al. in 2010). All of the others are either U5b1b1 or U5b1b2.

Gail

Alessio B. Bedini
12-07-2013, 08:29 AM
Hello Gail, thank you for your information
I tested my mtDNA with Geno 2.0 but not with FTDNA because in U5 Project i don't have seen U5b1b people as me.
We'll see in 2014 if it will come out something interesting ...

Baltimore1937
12-09-2013, 01:48 AM
As for my U5b2/U5b2b2 group, it looks like at least some of them went north from their LGM refuge via an eastern route; around the east end of the Alps and then up into Czech/Poland. I have some scattered HVR1 matches in that eastern region.

Titus Valerius
12-27-2013, 01:53 PM
Hi,
my son is U5a2b, I'm H1c4b,
we are from Italy