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MitchellSince1893
03-29-2015, 06:28 PM
Just wanted to share some of my thoughts on this branch based on Yfull's SNP dating and release of combBED area data for individuals
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=76588#post76588

Yfull currently dates Z150/Z12222 as
formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybp
This would be during the Bell Beaker period
4204.
Which is compatible with the current distribution in Britain, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Italy, and Spain.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zzYgXMi2ZzXQ.kzlK_c6TtbRw&msa=0&ll=51.013755,-0.571289&spn=16.196212,43.286133

FGC12378/79/80/81/82 (aka Y3140/42/43 and Y10987 on the Ytree) is on the Ytree as
formed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 3600 ybp
For comparison, using my specific 167.77 years per SNP mutation and starting with Z150/Z1222 date of 4530 ybp, I get 3523 ybp for this block of SNPs...so slightly younger than what is shown on the Ytree.

FGC12383/Y3140 currently has members from Valencia, Spain, Netherlands, and England. Ytree doesn't currently recognize this branch, but Richard Rocca's U152 tree does.
http://www.r1b.org/docs/Full_Y-Chromosome_U152_Samples.xlsx

Using my 167.77 years per SNP gives a date of 3356 ybp or ~1400 BC. I'm wondering if this branch might be associated with the Urnfield Culture (1300 BC – 750 BC), which shows coverage in these same areas.
4205

Continuing with this line of thought; my terminal branch is FGC12401/02/03/04/05 (aka Y9080/Y10984/Y10985/Y10986/Y4272/FGC12403 on Ytree); which I currently share with another individual with British ancestry. Again using the 167.77 years per SNP method gives a date of 2517 ybp or 567BC.
As the Urnfield culture was followed by the Hallstaat, I wonder if this branch might be representative of the iron age Hallstatt D culture in Britain.


Hallstatt Culture Roots

At the end of the Urnfield stage of the Late Bronze Age, ca. 800 BC, the central Europeans were mostly farmers (herding and growing crops). The Hallstatt culture included an area between central France to western Hungary and from the Alps to central Poland. The term includes many different unrelated regional groups, who used the same set of material culture because of a strong network of trade and exchange. By 600 BC, iron tools spread into northern Britain and Scandinavia; elites concentrated in western and central Europe. The Hallstatt elites became concentrated within a zone between what is now the Burgundy region of eastern France and southern Germany. These elites were powerful and located in at least 16 hillforts called "seats of power" or fürstensitz.
http://archaeology.about.com/od/ironage/qt/Hallstatt-Culture.htm

Just thinking out loud here; and recognizing my desire to get to a Britain specific sub-branch may have biased my thinking.

R.Rocca
03-30-2015, 12:12 AM
Just wanted to share some of my thoughts on this branch based on Yfull's SNP dating and release of combBED area data for individuals
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=76588#post76588

Yfull currently dates Z150/Z12222 as
This would be during the Bell Beaker period
4204.
Which is compatible with the current distribution in Britain, Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Italy, and Spain.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=zzYgXMi2ZzXQ.kzlK_c6TtbRw&msa=0&ll=51.013755,-0.571289&spn=16.196212,43.286133

FGC12378/79/80/81/82 (aka Y3140/42/43 and Y10987 on the Ytree) is on the Ytree as
For comparison, using my specific 167.77 years per SNP mutation and starting with Z150/Z1222 date of 4530 ybp, I get 3523 ybp for this block of SNPs...so slightly younger than what is shown on the Ytree.

FGC12383/Y3140 currently has members from Valencia, Spain, Netherlands, and England. Ytree doesn't currently recognize this branch, but Richard Rocca's U152 tree does.
http://www.r1b.org/docs/Full_Y-Chromosome_U152_Samples.xlsx

Using my 167.77 years per SNP gives a date of 3356 ybp or ~1400 BC. I'm wondering if this branch might be associated with the Urnfield Culture (1300 BC – 750 BC), which shows coverage in these same areas.
4205

Continuing with this line of thought; my terminal branch is FGC12401/02/03/04/05 (aka Y9080/Y10984/Y10985/Y10986/Y4272/FGC12403 on Ytree); which I currently share with another individual with British ancestry. Again using the 167.77 years per SNP method gives a date of 2517 ybp or 567BC.
As the Urnfield culture was followed by the Hallstaat, I wonder if this branch might be representative of the iron age Hallstatt D culture in Britain.


http://archaeology.about.com/od/ironage/qt/Hallstatt-Culture.htm

Just thinking out loud here; and recognizing my desire to get to a Britain specific sub-branch may have biased my thinking.

Your 167.77 was based on Big-Y coverage, correct? I think the Full Genomes estimate averaged 122? The link to the spreadsheet is broken.

MitchellSince1893
03-30-2015, 01:41 AM
Your 167.77 was based on Big-Y coverage, correct? I think the Full Genomes estimate averaged 122? The link to the spreadsheet is broken.

Fixed the link above but is here the hyperlink to the post containing the spreadsheet (I guess it changed after I posted it above). See the link to the excel sheet in post #5 http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4067-Age-of-Z251-Based-on-YFull-SNP-Rate-Constants&p=76468&viewfull=1#post76468

Yes my 167.77 is based on my specific BigY test. However, the average for all BigY tests is 160.46 years. I went to my Yfull statistics page and got my
Length coverage for age: 7269144 bp This statistic was just added a couple of days ago.
4211

I then used the spreadsheet and changed the default value of 7600000 for all BigY tests to my test's 7269144, and entered my novel SNPs along with my public SNPs below Z142, starting with Z12222.

Here is a screen shot of the spreadsheet with some columns I added for SNP names and dates, and borders to better identify my branches. My Novel SNPs begin with FGC12384
4212
The spreadsheet automatically determines the adjustment for my particular test and adjusts the SNP count to only include those located in the combBED area. The ones with the yellow 0 cell in column D are outside of the comBed area and not counted.

MitchellSince1893
03-30-2015, 01:52 AM
For those of you who are currently confused or saying what the hell is a "combBED area"; go to this link and start reading posts 865, 869, and 870. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2573-New-DNA-Papers-General-Discussion-Thread&p=75225&viewfull=1#post75225

The addition of the new "Length coverage for age" statistic on the Yfull analysis members's page allows one to determine average years between SNPs for your particular test.

Also Dave_V the author of the spreadsheet discusses it here http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4064-YFull-s-New-Rate-Constant-for-Y-Chromosome-SNPs-based-on-Full-Sequence-Data&p=76572&viewfull=1#post76572

The above discussion is related to the paper Yfull released explaining the SNP dating methodogy. Link to the Yfull paper is here http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/151/175

MitchellSince1893
04-10-2015, 03:32 AM
Tonight I placed the STR results for the 28 U152 project members of the various Z150 branches into a spreadsheet, in an attempt to find a combination of off modal STR values unique to my branch, U152 > L2 > Z49 > Z142 > Z150/Z12222 > FGC12378/79/80/81/82 > FGC12383/Y3141.

I found DYS446=14 and DYS549=13 only occurs in the two current members of my terminal branch. They are both 111 marker STRs

Using this:
1. I looked for this pattern in the other main branch of Z142, R-Z51; and no kits did. That's a good sign that I might be on to something.

2. So I looked at all the Z142 folks that haven't tested below Z142 and one matched: 102977 William Hill (bef 1742 – bef 1785).

3. I then looked at all the Z49 folks that tested negative for Z142 and 2 had this combination; so that is a problem. If you add the requirement that DYS390=24 then it weeds out these two false matches

4. I then looked at the Z49 folks that haven't tested below for Z142 and one kit had DYS390=24, DYS446=14 and DYS549=13: 223609 Thomas Augustus Swaysland, b. 1797 and d. 1841.

5. I then looked at all the L2 folks that haven't tested below L2 and one kit had DYS390=24, DYS446=14 and DYS549=13: 8185 Daniel Grass b 1774 Pa d 1836 IN.

6. There was one L2+, Z49- person that was DYS390=24, DYS446=14 and DYS549=13, but he had 10 markers that didn't match my terminal branch modal values.

Based on this experiment Z142+ Hill (10297), Z49+ Swaysland (22360), and L2+ Grass (8185), have the right STR combination to potentially be on my terminal branch.

delegz
04-10-2015, 04:33 AM
Swayzland (22360) is very likely DYS385a/b = 11/13.2, though he didn't respond when I suggested he contact FTDNA to confirm. Langley (31971) and Mason (136311), who are confirmed 11/13.2, have DYS446=14 AND DYS549=13 according to FTDNA, while I, also confirmed, have results from FGC of DYS446=14 and DYS549=12. At the same time, unlike our distant Z150 relatives we all have DYS481=24 instead of DYS481=22.

Still trying to recruit at least one other 11/13.2 for FGC Prime or Big Y. Which reminds me, how does someone qualify for a Big Y coupon?

MitchellSince1893
04-10-2015, 11:34 AM
If Swaysland (22360) is DYS385a/b = 11/13.2 then that potentially shoots a hole into my experiment...oh well...back to the drawing board.

FTDNA coupons are typically offered twice per year and you get a notification. Next one should be near father's day. Even if you don't get one, someone else can donate one. I tried to give one away last Christmas but no one contacted me wanting it before it expired.

MitchellSince1893
07-13-2015, 11:49 AM
I just added a SNP from my current terminal branch Y9080 on Ytree and FGC12401 on Rocca's tree to the YSEQ.net wish list. One day later it's available http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=12199

MitchellSince1893
09-14-2015, 10:27 PM
It's been out for a month but I just noticed this new feature at Yfull, the "age estimation" feature.

If I understand it correctly the unrounded and rounded ages are based on my specific data. The "age by all samples" is literally that. The Y9080 age is based my and another individual.

The dates based only on my data and the "age by all samples" dates are pretty consistent until you get the top two most recent dates.

So maybe my terminal is younger than originally listed...SNP 2400 ybp (450 BC) instead of 3000 (1050 BC).

5918

MitchellSince1893
11-23-2015, 06:23 AM
On Richard's latest tree

U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12378/79/80/81/82/83 now has at least 3 branches and probably more

The Vidaillet/Lincoln Branch (17909529(G/T), 22440780(A/T) )
The Mitchell/de Riccio/Roberts Branch (FGC12401/2/3/4/5)
The Brace branch (no matches yet)

Plus A Spanish individual (Hg17777) and 2 Dutch individuals (GoNLx2) may each have their own branches too.

Also de Riccio and Roberts now have their own sub branch of FGC12401/2/3/4/5, while I'm on another (no matches yet)

Shamash
11-24-2015, 07:36 AM
On Richard's latest tree

U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12378/79/80/81/82/83 now has at least 3 branches and probably more

The Vidaillet/Lincoln Branch (17909529(G/T), 22440780(A/T) )
The Mitchell/de Riccio/Roberts Branch (FGC12401/2/3/4/5)
The Brace branch (no matches yet)

Plus A Spanish individual (Hg17777) and 2 Dutch individuals (GoNLx2) may each have their own branches too.

Also de Riccio and Roberts now have their own sub branch of FGC12401/2/3/4/5, while I'm on another (no matches yet)

Hi Edward, where can I find Richard's tree? And what does it mean for the TMRCA of Roberts and myself? I thought we three share FGC12401/2/3/4/5? On the U152 project page there are more than 200 links whithout any explanation just the paths. What a bad way the new Beta Project Pages look like!
Thank you very much!

Shamash
11-24-2015, 10:00 PM
Hi Edward, where can I find Richard's tree? And what does it mean for the TMRCA of Roberts and myself? I thought we three share FGC12401/2/3/4/5? On the U152 project page there are more than 200 links whithout any explanation just the paths. What a bad way the new Beta Project Pages look like!
Thank you very much!

Finally I found Richard's tree you are referring to and as far as I understand this tree Roberts, you and I share all FGC12401/2/3/4/5. Roberts and I in addition share only one more SNP 16387379(A/G). Now I understand you, Best, Marco

MitchellSince1893
11-25-2015, 12:43 AM
Finally I found Richard's tree you are referring to and as far as I understand this tree Roberts, you and I share all FGC12401/2/3/4/5. Roberts and I in addition share only one more SNP 16387379(A/G). Now I understand you, Best, Marco

My bad, I assumed the location of "Richard's tree" was common knowledge. Here it is for those not familiar with it http://www.r1b.org/docs/Full_Y-Chromosome_U152_Samples.xlsx

Here is the page it's on. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/results Just click on this link on that page.


U152 and Subclades Phylogenetic Tree by Richard Rocca *Continually updated*

Here's a picture of the that tree section...I added the names so it would be easier to follow. Yes Richard must have found a SNP that you and Roberts share that I don't.

6701

Position 16387379 isn't in the CombBed area so the TMRCA date won't change from what it is on yfull. SNPs outside the CombBed area aren't used by Yfull to calculate dates.

Shamash
11-25-2015, 11:13 AM
Your help is very much appreciated! Thanks a lot!

Shamash
12-27-2015, 01:08 PM
Our sample has been added to the Yfull-tree: ID YF04703

Shamash
12-27-2015, 01:17 PM
Our sample has been added to the Yfull-tree: ID YF04703

MitchellSince1893
12-27-2015, 04:51 PM
Our sample has been added to the Yfull-tree: ID YF04703

Yes I've been checking periodically to see when your sample would be completed. It still hasn't added your data to the estimated SNP date yet. Maybe that won't happen until version 3.19 is out. In about 3 months we should have another member of this branch...my closest STR match FTDNA # 86098 Joseph GUESS (c1790 Orange NC).

And then a couple months after that my FGC Y Elite 2.0 results should be available.

Shamash
12-27-2015, 07:25 PM
I guess that the TMRCA will drop as Yfull reports 10 Best Quality SNPs and only 7 Acceptable ones which make 17 altogether. That will shorten the timeframe. I follow the formula used by Yfull:
17/8030861x8467165=17,92 SNPs (=formula to corrected SNPs number) while 8030861 is the coverage of our sample

17,92x144,41+60=2648ybp

(2415+3375+2648)/3=2813ybp

So the new TMRCA for our subclade is about 2813 years before period!

That date parallels the beginning of Hallstatt-Culture (Hallstatt C). So it might be an educated guess to associate it with that Culture. Maybe we can narrow this association down to the Western Hallstatt Culture sphere. My ancestor could have been a Lepontic speaking Celt from Umbria. Lepontic insciptions have been found as far south as in Terni in Umbria in Central Italy (the Terni culture is very similar to the Hallstatt and La Tène-Culture) which is not very far from Molise. I have quite a few ancestors that came from Umbria to Molise so that remains a possibility...

Lepontic inscription from Todi in Umbria:

https://books.google.at/books?id=kKGY91xdI54C&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=stele+di+todi+museo+gregoriano&source=bl&ots=fIHbjxjxTZ&sig=UxU3LZ8bdTODepYYtEqQcKzVTYg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHnvOWgP3JAhXJZCwKHV3CBG4Q6AEIUzAI#v=on epage&q=stele%20di%20todi%20museo%20gregoriano&f=false

https://books.google.at/books?id=j7VteteTkmYC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=lepontico+umbria&source=bl&ots=DsfH9YV_tI&sig=IPFJcYklkyoC182HscVEuBg0R7w&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivktLN-fzJAhVLEiwKHTFOAekQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=lepontico%20umbria&f=false

MitchellSince1893
12-28-2015, 09:24 AM
I was thinking the same thing. What culture existed around 800BC that ended up in Britain, France, and Italy?

Hallstatt. Maybe our branch will eventually be tied to this culture. Exciting stuff.

MitchellSince1893
01-07-2016, 03:54 AM
I guess that the TMRCA will drop as Yfull reports 10 Best Quality SNPs and only 7 Acceptable ones which make 17 altogether. That will shorten the timeframe. I follow the formula used by Yfull:
17/8030861x8467165=17,92 SNPs (=formula to corrected SNPs number) while 8030861 is the coverage of our sample

17,92x144,41+60=2648ybp

(2415+3375+2648)/3=2813ybp

So the new TMRCA for our subclade is about 2813 years before period!

That date parallels the beginning of Hallstatt-Culture (Hallstatt C). So it might be an educated guess to associate it with that Culture. Maybe we can narrow this association down to the Western Hallstatt Culture sphere. My ancestor could have been a Lepontic speaking Celt from Umbria. Lepontic insciptions have been found as far south as in Terni in Umbria in Central Italy (the Terni culture is very similar to the Hallstatt and La Tène-Culture) which is not very far from Molise. I have quite a few ancestors that came from Umbria to Molise so that remains a possibility...

Lepontic inscription from Todi in Umbria:

https://books.google.at/books?id=kKGY91xdI54C&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=stele+di+todi+museo+gregoriano&source=bl&ots=fIHbjxjxTZ&sig=UxU3LZ8bdTODepYYtEqQcKzVTYg&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHnvOWgP3JAhXJZCwKHV3CBG4Q6AEIUzAI#v=on epage&q=stele%20di%20todi%20museo%20gregoriano&f=false

https://books.google.at/books?id=j7VteteTkmYC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=lepontico+umbria&source=bl&ots=DsfH9YV_tI&sig=IPFJcYklkyoC182HscVEuBg0R7w&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwivktLN-fzJAhVLEiwKHTFOAekQ6AEIHzAA#v=onepage&q=lepontico%20umbria&f=false

I saw on Yfull's U152 group http://www.yfull.com/groups/r-u152/browser/

Where, like Richard Rocca, they also show you and Roberts are the only ones that have derived G values for position 16387379.

YF02596 G (Roberts)
YF01489 A (me)
YF04703 G (you)

MitchellSince1893
01-11-2016, 04:19 AM
Our updated branch is now available, and Yfull has given the Roberts/Riccio branch the name R-Y19291.

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3140/

Shamash
01-11-2016, 07:43 AM
Our updated branch is now available, and Yfull has given the Roberts/Riccio branch the name R-Y19291.

http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3140/

Thanks, interesting that Roberts and I share exactly one more SNP that you are negative for!

MitchellSince1893
01-23-2016, 05:02 PM
Thanks, interesting that Roberts and I share exactly one more SNP that you are negative for!

Have you considered sending your file to Alex Williamson's Big Tree?

It's free and already he already has Roberts on his tree

http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=28

Pigmon
01-24-2016, 03:02 PM
Mark,

It would be interesting to see "Joseph Hobbs, born ca 1775, Somersetshire, England" on Williamson's Big Tree.

Do you have any idea how I can contact him and encourage him to upload his info?



Have you considered sending your file to Alex Williamson's Big Tree?

It's free and already he already has Roberts on his tree

http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=28

MitchellSince1893
01-24-2016, 05:36 PM
Mark,

It would be interesting to see "Joseph Hobbs, born ca 1775, Somersetshire, England" on Williamson's Big Tree.

Do you have any idea how I can contact him and encourage him to upload his info?

No but Richard Rocca might.

MitchellSince1893
05-10-2016, 12:31 PM
Via BigY matches, just got a new member of this branch 308506 Strickland.

MitchellSince1893
05-11-2016, 04:12 AM
Using all 9 of the known FGC12378 individuals, I created a "Universal STR values" haplotype. It worked to 53 out of 111 markers that are shared by all FGC12378 men so far.

1. If you go to this tool http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

2. Cut & paste these values in the "Paste haplotype or setup data here:" window


Universal Values for FGC12378 13 24 14 12 12 9-10 11 15 11 9 8 10 8 10 10 12 10 12 12 8 22 11 11 12 15 9 16 12 19 12 11 12 10 9 12 10 11 11 12 24 10 10 15 17 12 15 12 18 14 17 9 11
*NOTE: The 3rd value "14" isn't a universally shared SNP but I couldn't get the tool to work without a value here.


3. Then copy and paste row(s) from a FTDNA y-classic str project page into the same window.
4. Click execute, and you can see if they are a good match.

My own conservative criteria for saying an individual has a good chance of being FGC12378 is you need to have a green value in the second column of the "Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (Years)" section as seen inside the green rectangle below (all the men below the red rectangle are from the FTDNA U152 project...the ones that made the cut after testing several hundred individuals from the L2, Z49, and other pertinent sections).

Because it's conservative there are going to be individuals out there that are FGC12378 and aren't exact matches. As they become known I will alter the haplotype accordingly. Conversely there may be individuals that closely match the FGC12378 Universal Haplotype that turn out to be negative for this SNP.


9234

The individuals inside the red rectangle are known to be positive for SNP R-FGC12378. The ones below IMO have a good chance of being FGC12378 positive. These all are from the FTDNA U152 project and have at least 67 markers. Obviously there is no point cutting a pasting individuals from branches that aren't in branches directly above FGC12378 e.g. no point in testing Z36, Z56, L20 etc. as it's already known they aren't going to be positive for FGC12378.

This technique isn't limited to the FGC12378 haplotype. You could use it for any haplotype if you have enough samples.

MitchellSince1893
06-03-2016, 09:59 PM
New member of the U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12378>FGC12383>FGC12401 branch

209466 Thomas Wheatley, b. 1725; d. 1789 Pitt Co., NC Unknown Origin

That's the 5th person that has tested positive for the branch.

Other members in FTDNA U152 project
E14371 Giovanni de Riccio, 1511-1591, Isernia, Molise Italy
249822 Edward Leopold Mitchell b 1893 (NPE) London, Eng England
268283 Horatio Sylvanus Roberts 1822London-1910Sydney NSW England

A 5th member confirmed via YSEQ SNP test.

According to http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

209466 Wheatley and 268283 Horatio Sylvanus Roberts are pretty close matches. Genetic Distance=9 at 111 markers, with MCRA estimated at 540 ybp.

Wouldn't be surprised if they share additional SNPs forming a new branch.

MitchellSince1893
06-03-2016, 11:52 PM
...

According to http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

209466 Wheatley and 268283 Horatio Sylvanus Roberts are pretty close matches. Genetic Distance=9 at 111 markers, with MCRA estimated at 540 ybp.

Wouldn't be surprised if they share additional SNPs forming a new branch.

From what I can see on FTDNA and Yfull,

They share the following 17 SNP mutations (none of which I share with them)

14230975 A C High
14320116 G T High
15441051 T A High
16387379 A G High Y1929
16745980 G A High
16807881 C T High
17365147 T G High
17434374 G A High
18698655 T C High
20137768 G A High
21331013 A G High
21467509 T A High
21785275 G A High
22118815 G A High
23794953 G A High
27995238 C T High
8659512 C A High

Yfull estimates age of R-Y19291 (one branch below FGC12401), formed 3300 ybp, TMRCA 3300 ybp.

At 167 years per SNP mutation that would be 17x167=2839 years. 3300-2839= 461 ybp which is within 80 years of what I got using the STR technique in the post above.

MitchellSince1893
06-04-2016, 09:53 PM
Richard Rocca found a couple more (in bold)


...

14230975 A C High
14320116 G T High
15441051 T A High
16387379 A G High Y1929
16745980 G A High
16807881 C T High
17365147 T G High
17434374 G A High
18698655 T C High
20137768 G A High
21331013 A G High
21467509 T A High
21785275 G A High
22118815 G A High
22476861 G A High
22941997 G A High
23794953 G A High
27995238 C T High
8659512 C A High

MitchellSince1893
06-08-2016, 06:28 PM
On the updated FTDNA U152 project page it appears the 3 other FGC12401 matches have abandoned me and are now on their own branch R-BY5698 aka R-Y19291.

This turn of events has made me want to launch into song

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o22i_gqAf_o

As my friends up North would say "She's Canadian eh"

MitchellSince1893
06-15-2016, 07:16 PM
Got a new member for the FGC12401/02/03/04/05 branch. My closest STR match FGC Y elite 2.1 results are now available.

We've known since last July via YSEQ that he was positive for FGC12401. He ordered the FGC Y Elite back in Sep and the results are in.

More to follow as I weed through it.

MitchellSince1893
06-15-2016, 07:28 PM
I'm going to create a new thread for this new branch.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7479-New-branch-under-R-FGC12401-FGC12385

Needless to say that I can't stop singing "All by myself" now (see post 2 above) :)

MitchellSince1893
07-07-2016, 04:12 AM
I guess that the TMRCA will drop as Yfull reports 10 Best Quality SNPs and only 7 Acceptable ones which make 17 altogether. That will shorten the timeframe. I follow the formula used by Yfull:
17/8030861x8467165=17,92 SNPs (=formula to corrected SNPs number) while 8030861 is the coverage of our sample

17,92x144,41+60=2648ybp

(2415+3375+2648)/3=2813ybp

So the new TMRCA for our subclade is about 2813 years before period!

That date parallels the beginning of Hallstatt-Culture (Hallstatt C). So it might be an educated guess to associate it with that Culture. Maybe we can narrow this association down to the Western Hallstatt Culture sphere. My ancestor could have been a Lepontic speaking Celt from Umbria. Lepontic insciptions have been found as far south as in Terni in Umbria in Central Italy (the Terni culture is very similar to the Hallstatt and La Tène-Culture) which is not very far from Molise. I have quite a few ancestors that came from Umbria to Molise so that remains a possibility...
...

With the addition of two more FGC kits to the R-Y9080/FGC12401 et al. branch, and using the "Yfull based SNP block Age estimator" spreadsheet it's looking like this branch is about 3300 years before present.

From R-Y19291 branch:
YF02596 = 3848 ybp (from https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9080)
YF04703 = 3105 ybp (from https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y9080)
Average is 3476.5 years before present (ybp)

From the R-FGC12384 branch (should appear in version 4.06 of the Yfull tree)
YF01489 = 3210 ybp (based on FGC Y Elite results imputed into Yfull based SNP block Age estimator in lieu of old BigY results)
YF06431 = 3049 ybp (based on FGC Y Elite results imputed into Yfull based SNP block Age estimator)
Average is 3125 ybp

(3476.5+3125)/2= 3300 ybp/1350 BC or around the start of the possibly Proto-celtic Urnfield culture.


Urnfield Culture (Proto-Celts)
c.1300 - 750 BC

The Urnfield culture (Ha A and Ha b) is the label given to the earliest recognizably proto-Celtic group in Europe. The culture arose gradually in Central Europe, to the north of the Alps, between Bohemia and the Rhine, forming from earlier-arriving Celto-Ligurian groups. This rise included the Upper Danube regions of Austria and Bavaria, and it rapidly spread to the Swiss lakes, the Upper and Middle Rhine valleys and, ultimately, further north and west. It gained its name from the cremation remains that were found in large urns.

The people of this culture had a well-developed Late Bronze Age warrior strata to their society, something that would also feature strongly in later Celtic society.
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianCelts.htm

My guess is our branch would be from those that spread into Switzerland and eastern France; who later went into the British Isles, Iberia, and Italy.

MitchellSince1893
07-20-2016, 07:59 PM
Thanks, interesting that Roberts and I share exactly one more SNP that you are negative for!

At the rate he's going, it looks like your results will be on Alex Willianson's Bigtree around the 2nd week of August. You are #46 on the to do list.
http://www.ytree.net/ToDo.php

Hopefully when he updates yours he will also do Wheatley and Guess as all 3 are on the same Y-10984 branch

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1082

MitchellSince1893
07-22-2016, 10:17 PM
At the rate he's going, it looks like your results will be on Alex Willianson's Bigtree around the 2nd week of August. You are #46 on the to do list.
http://www.ytree.net/ToDo.php

Hopefully when he updates yours he will also do Wheatley and Guess as all 3 are on the same Y-10984 branch

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1082

You're now up to 24 on the to do list.

MitchellSince1893
07-24-2016, 06:49 PM
You're now up to 24 on the to do list.

Alex has sped up over the last few days...you are #6 on the to do list

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2016, 02:13 AM
Double post

MitchellSince1893
07-28-2016, 02:16 AM
Alex Williamson has added all 3 individuals (Riccio, Wheatley, Guess) to his tree a few moments ago.

Alex Guess and I now form a new branch, sharing 43 SNPs. (Alex Williamson is calling this branch FGC 12385)

10670

MitchellSince1893
07-31-2016, 10:06 PM
Double post

MitchellSince1893
07-31-2016, 11:05 PM
Triple post

MitchellSince1893
07-31-2016, 11:06 PM
Updated R-Z150,Z12222,Z26720>FGC12378 et al Branch. Data derived from Yfull, FTDNA, Full Genome, BigTree and other public sources.

This branch has really grown since it was first discovered 2 years ago. From two individuals (1KG01777 and Mitchell-249822) to 15, with potentially 8 branches.

Dates are from Yfull or derived from Yfull methodology.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0b/c9/12/0bc912fdb94be1f83fbfc141d7017440.png

Higher resolution version here https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/0b/c9/12/0bc912fdb94be1f83fbfc141d7017440.png

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2016, 08:45 PM
Updated based on Ytree version 4.07.

This chart provides an illustrative comparison of BigY vs Full Genome Y Elite 2.1

Branch R-L368 has two BigY tests results while R-FGC12384 has two FGC Y Elite 2.1 results.

While each branch is roughly the same age (1000 AD =/- 100 years), the L368/BigY branch has less than half the SNPs compared to the FGC12384/FGC Y Elite branch.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/1b/c0/aa1bc0c3dde3706fc0d9a33edffe59d7.png

Higher resolution version here. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/aa/1b/c0/aa1bc0c3dde3706fc0d9a33edffe59d7.png

MitchellSince1893
09-18-2016, 08:01 AM
Just got a new member of the R-FGC12401 family. Welcome 335362 Gergely Daku, from Hungary.

Hungary is quite unexpected. The previous 5 samples have been from Western European countries. 4 from Britain, and one from Italy.

One level up at FGC12378 et al, the previous 15 samples have also all been from Western European countries; 10 from Britain, 2 from the Netherlands, 1 each from France, Italy, Spain.

There is another sample from Hungary 3 levels up at R-Z142, but he hasn't tested below this level.

Of the 90+ Z142 samples, other non Western European samples include one from Greater Lithuania (present day Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine areas), and 1 from Finland.

Shamash
09-18-2016, 07:52 PM
Just got a new member of the R-FGC12401 family. Welcome 335362 Gergely Daku, from Hungary.

Hungary is quite unexpected. The previous 5 samples have been from Western European countries. 4 from Britain, and one from Italy.

One level up at FGC12378 et al, the previous 15 samples have also all been from Western European countries; 10 from Britain, 2 from the Netherlands, 1 each from France, Italy, Spain.

There is another sample from Hungary 3 levels up at R-Z142, but he hasn't tested below this level.

Of the 90+ Z142 samples, other non Western European samples include one from Greater Lithuania (present day Lithuania, Belarus, and Ukraine areas), and 1 from Finland.

Yes quite unexpected! Rich clustered him in his U152 project with our Italian Riccio/Ricci lineage and to tell the truth our haplotypes look quite similar sharing a few motives like slow mutating DYS 438=13.

I would love to see how many more SNPs we two share!

Richard do you know if he ordered BigY?

Shamash
09-18-2016, 08:06 PM
This seems to be Gergely Daku's genealogical and ethnical background:

http://www.family-heritage.org/blog/daku-putting-the-hun-in-hungarian

They originally come from Tiszabezdéd in the most eastern part of Hungary close to the Ukraine and Slovakia:

https://www.google.at/maps/place/Tiszabezd%C3%A9d,+4624+Ungarn/@48.3675561,17.6716125,6z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4738e5dcf5752459:0x400c4290c1e75 20!8m2!3d48.3633432!4d22.151102

MitchellSince1893
09-18-2016, 08:39 PM
This seems to be Gergely Daku's genealogical and ethnical background:

http://www.family-heritage.org/blog/daku-putting-the-hun-in-hungarian

They originally come from Tiszabezdéd in the most eastern part of Hungary close to the Ukraine and Slovakia:

https://www.google.at/maps/place/Tiszabezd%C3%A9d,+4624+Ungarn/@48.3675561,17.6716125,6z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x4738e5dcf5752459:0x400c4290c1e75 20!8m2!3d48.3633432!4d22.151102

I was telling Rich in a PM that I may need to revise my hypothesis that FGC12378 originated in Eastern France/Southwest Germany/Switzerland area based on this new sample.

Although, that location in the extreme NE corner of Hungary, is still within the Urnfield cultural horizon and Celtic expansion area of the 1st millennium BC.
11727
11726

Shamash
09-18-2016, 09:12 PM
Do you think that FGC12378 could be a Hallstatt culture marker?

MitchellSince1893
09-18-2016, 09:36 PM
Do you think that FGC12378 could be a Hallstatt culture marker? I added some additional info about the Urnfield culture to my post above.

I would more inclined to say it could be linked to Italo-Celtic. According to Yfull dating, FGC12378 appeared at the end of the Bell Beaker period with a MRCA living around 2300 BC. The branches below this 7 SNP block began life around 1850 BC (according to Yfull).

Our FGC12401 block of 7 SNPs would have been living in the period (1850-1450 BC) between the Bell Beaker and Urnfield Culture (1300 BCE – 750 BCE); that is during the Unetice (2300–1600 BC), and Tumulus culture (1600 BCE — c. 1200 BCE). After this the Hallstaat Culture came on the scene.

Once you have a match below BY5698 on your branch with 1 or 2 SNPs, you will then be close to the beginning of the Hallstaat culture (1200 BC).


The earliest archaeological culture that may justifiably be considered as Proto-Celtic is the Late Bronze Age Urnfield culture of Central Europe from the last quarter of the second millennium BC.[1] By the Iron Age Hallstatt culture of around 800 BC, these people had become fully Celtic.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic_language

MitchellSince1893
09-18-2016, 10:53 PM
Do you think that FGC12378 could be a Hallstatt culture marker?

Added some dates to my previous org chart to go with the discussion above

11731

MitchellSince1893
09-19-2016, 12:56 AM
I've found a couple of maps showing "Early Celtic" (yellow area in first map) or "Proto Italo-Celts" (Red area in 2nd map)
centered on Hungary/Eastern Carpathian Basin.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/MIGRATIONS.jpg

http://herebedragons.weebly.com/uploads/6/3/2/7/6327404/2791823.jpg?825

So there are at least two possibilities.
1. FGC12378 originated here and his descendants spread westward with Urnfield, Hallstatt, and La Tene.
2. FGC12378 originated further West with some of his descendants (e.g. a branch of BY5698) spreading east into Hungary as part of the Urnfield or the Hallstatt culture.

Or 3. He had nothing to do with any of these cultures.

MitchellSince1893
02-02-2017, 02:18 AM
Reading Michal's thoughts on SNP based dating in this thread:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2420-SNP-based-TMRCAs-for-R1b-U106-and-subclades&p=37495&viewfull=1#post37495

and this one

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1716-R1b-and-IE-branching&p=23493&viewfull=1#post23493

I'm wondering if FGC12378 et al and it's subclades may have also had an "incubation period" as Michal calls it, for several generations in a pre/proto Celtic core area before expanding to present locations in Iberia, Low Countries, Gaul, Italy, Hungary, with Urnfield culture and then later to England from either France and/or Rhine Delta area.

According to Yfull, the FGC12378 SNP block (called Y3140 at Yfull) MRCA lived around 3700 years before present ybp or ~1750 BC.


By the end of the 2nd millennium BC (i.e. 1000 BC), the Urnfield Tradition had spread through Italy, northwestern Europe, and as far west as the Pyreneeshttp://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803114926384

For argument sake let's assume Yfull is correct that TMRCA for FGC12378, Y3140 et al lived circa 1750 BC and he had 2 sons and each of them had 2 sons and so on for 450 years/15 generations (start of Urnfield Culture in 1300 BC); and that they stayed pretty stationary in a core area (near the origin of the Urnfield Culture in Central Europe) during this "incubation period". By the end of this period there would be almost 33000 male descendants of TMRCA of FGC12378. Resulting in the various subclades of FGC12378 being intermixed among each other before expanding mostly to the West, North, and South.

In another 300 years (10 generations) their descendants reach Spain, the Netherlands, France, and Italy (looking at the current members of FGC12378 et al and where Urnfield has been found).

From Northern France and/or the Low Countries they later spread into the "Anglo Celtic Isles" via the Hallstatt Culture, with more waves arriving with La Tene, Belgic tribes, and Gaulish refugees escaping Roman conquest of their homelands.

All the above is just a hypothesis based on reading Michal's ideas on the spread of other halpogroups and should be treated accordingly.

MitchellSince1893
06-08-2017, 06:29 PM
Got a new BigY result for U152> L2> Z49> Z142> Z12222> FGC12378 et al.> FGC12401 et al.> BY5698 branch

He is our sole Hungarian member, kit# 335362, on his own branch.

The other 2 branches of BY5698 have 1 Italian on one branch, and to Brits on the other (BY12085)

Shamash
06-14-2017, 04:44 AM
Got a new BigY result for U152> L2> Z49> Z142> Z12222> FGC12378 et al.> FGC12401 et al.> BY5698 branch

He is our sole Hungarian member, kit# 335362, on his own branch.

The other 2 branches of BY5698 have 1 Italian on one branch, and to Brits on the other (BY12085)

Is that so?

We share 19 novel variants:

14236879 A A High
14403973 T C High
16018726 C C High
17329844 T C High
17599534 T T High
18146894 C C High
18162467 G G High
18180367 T T High
21610585 C C High
21779257 A A High
21898355 T T High
21900946 T T High
22445399 G C High
22478082 A G High
22478089 G T High
22478105 G C High
22725125 C C High
6737738 G A High
8684839 T T High

Have you already analyzed Daku's data and we don't share any more SNPs than BY5698??? That would astound me...

MitchellSince1893
06-14-2017, 01:29 PM
Have you already analyzed Daku's data and we don't share any more SNPs than BY5698??? That would astound me...

For some time now, in depth analysis is done by Alex Williamson at BigTree. We encourage all U152 project members to send their bam files to Alex.

Probably redundant from what you already seen but here is the link to the U152 SNP page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp

Shamash
06-14-2017, 03:18 PM
For some time now, in depth analysis is done by Alex Williamson at BigTree. We encourage all U152 project members to send their bam files to Alex.

Probably redundant from what you already seen but here is the link to the U152 SNP page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp

Does Alex Williamson also make a TMRCA estimate?

MitchellSince1893
06-14-2017, 07:10 PM
Does Alex Williamson also make a TMRCA estimate?

Not currently, but yfull does. I try to get my close matches to load up at both Bigtree and yfull.

Shamash
07-16-2017, 06:01 PM
Is that so?

We share 19 novel variants:

14236879 A A High
14403973 T C High
16018726 C C High
17329844 T C High
17599534 T T High
18146894 C C High
18162467 G G High
18180367 T T High
21610585 C C High
21779257 A A High
21898355 T T High
21900946 T T High
22445399 G C High
22478082 A G High
22478089 G T High
22478105 G C High
22725125 C C High
6737738 G A High
8684839 T T High

Have you already analyzed Daku's data and we don't share any more SNPs than BY5698??? That would astound me...

According to Alex Wiliamson's analysis Daku and our lineage share 7 more SNPs below the BY5698 node:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1808

I'm looking forward to Yfull's TMRCA calculation! :)

MitchellSince1893
07-17-2017, 03:51 AM
According to Alex Wiliamson's analysis Daku and our lineage share 7 more SNPs below the BY5698 node:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1808

I'm looking forward to Yfull's TMRCA calculation! :)

Based on the number of SNPs you and Daku share that are in the combBed region (5), my estimate would be your shared ancestor lived in the last half of the 1st millenium BC

160.46 years x 5=802 years after Yfull's date for R-Y9080/FGC12401. So how old is Y9080?

Using my branch of Y9080 (FGC12384) TMRCA is dated at 2545 ybp (595 BC)
Using your branch R-Y9080/FGC12401 (Y19291) TMRCA is dated at 3611 ybp (1661 BC)
Yfull's average of TMRCA of our branches places R-Y9080/FGC12401 at 3078 ybp (1128 BC)

But because Yfull's date for your branch of Y9080, R-Y19291 is 3331 ybp, they can't have the parent be younger than the child. Therefore they place the date for Y9080 at 3300 ybp (rounded to the nearest 100)

All that to say TMRCA of Y9080 is probably somewhere around 1100 BC +/-500 years, which would mean Daku and your ancestor probably lived ~800 years before then or around 300 BC (800 BC - 200 AD).

It's just a guess but I'd say there's a good chance your shared ancestor was of the Hallstatt or La Tène culture which was in Hungary and Northern Italy during that period.

Celtic expansion reached the Carpathians in the beginning of the 4th century BC. According to a Livy, perhaps based on Celtic legend, the Celts that migrated to Italy and Illyria numbered 300,000.[16] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Shamash
07-17-2017, 07:04 AM
Based on the number of SNPs you and Daku share that are in the combBed region (5), my estimate would be your shared ancestor lived in the last half of the 1st millenium BC

160.46 years x 5=802 years after Yfull's date for R-Y9080/FGC12401. So how hold is Y9080?

Using my branch of Y9080 (FGC12384) TMRCA is dated at 2545 ybp (595 BC)
Using your branch R-Y9080/FGC12401 (Y19291) TMRCA is dated at 3611 ybp (1661 BC)
Yfull's average of TMRCA of our branches places R-Y9080/FGC12401 at 3078 ybp (1128 BC)

But because Yfull's date for your branch of Y9080, R-Y19291 is 3331 ybp, they can't have the parent be younger than the child. Therefore they place the date for Y9080 at 3300 ybp (rounded to the nearest 100)

All that to say TMRCA of Y9080 is probably somewhere around 1100 BC +/-500 years, which would mean Daku and your ancestor probably lived ~800 years before then or around 300 BC (800 BC - 200 AD).

It's just a guess but I'd say there's a good chance your shared ancestor was of the Hallstatt or La Tène culture which was in Hungary and Northern Italy during that period.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Thank you Mark!

I found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Eastern_Europe

It's just an educated guess of mine but our two lineages in Italy and Hungary could be the result of the Celtic migrations from Central Europe to South- and Southeastern Europe in the 4th century BCE. That TRMCA could point to that. Interesting that I live in Austria now where part of our journey seems to have started... :)

Shamash
07-19-2017, 09:23 PM
The Boii were a Celtic tribe attested in the 4th century BC in Italy and later in what is modern Hungary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boii

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianBoii.htm#Boii%20Dispersal

MitchellSince1893
07-24-2017, 02:41 PM
Thank you Mark!

I found this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_settlement_of_Eastern_Europe

It's just an educated guess of mine but our two lineages in Italy and Hungary could be the result of the Celtic migrations from Central Europe to South- and Southeastern Europe in the 4th century BCE. That TRMCA could point to that. Interesting that I live in Austria now where part of our journey seems to have started... :)

FYI: Iain McDonald date for y9080/FGC12401 967 BC (1802 BC — 211 BC) That would put your branch in the 1000 BC to 600 AD range with a mid point of 165 BC.
http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

This range overlaps with the Yfull date range I came up with earlier for your branch (800 BC to 200 AD).

Shamash
07-25-2017, 10:27 AM
Thank you! Family tradition has it that our branch of the Ricci family once lived in/north of Florence in Tuscany before being banned from the city and migrating to the kingdom of Naples. That territory in the north is much closer to where once the Celts settled in Italy, the Emilia Romagna. Anyway it's very nice to see that the TMRCA could correlate with the Celtic migrations to Italy!

Shamash
07-28-2017, 11:02 PM
Beside the Boii also the Taurisci (Teurisci) both settled in Nofthern Italy and the Upper Tisza river in Hungary where Daku's line comes from.

http://en.m.wiki9pedia.org/wiki/Taurisci (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teurisci

The Teurisci IMO best match the likely ancestral tribe as they reportedly settled in the Upper Tisza river valley where Daku's lineage is rooted (Tiszabezdéd):

https://www.google.at/maps/place/Tiszabezd%C3%A9d,+4624+Ungarn/@48.3675562,22.119015,13z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x4738e5dcf5752459:0x400c4 290c1e7520!8m2!3d48.3633432!4d22.151102

MitchellSince1893
08-17-2017, 12:26 AM
All known FGC12378 men ancestral locations...well all the ones known to me.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1v1uXxJh_AcVwcMVlopfJqVLKAtE&usp=sharing

MitchellSince1893
08-21-2017, 03:39 AM
Got a new member of FGC12378>S20376. Added to map above. Earliest paternal ancestor I could find was born in 1647 Leiden, Netherlands and moved to Otterberg Germany where they were member of the French Reform church. So this line may have originally been in France.

FGC12378 is rather international in membership.

In summary:
65992: Unknown
584950: Unknown
HG01777: Valencia, Spain (human 1000 genome study)
GoNLx1: The Netherlands (Govt of the Netherlands study)
GoNLx1: The Netherland (Govt of the Netherlands study)
147513 Adamthwaite: Brough, Westmorland, England
406563 Atherton: Atherton, Lancashire, England
N115212 Brace: London, England
335362 Daku: Tiszabezded, Hungary
315500: Fordney Fortineux: Leiden, Netherlands
86098 Guess: Probably shares common paternal ancestor with Adamthwaite in the last 500 years
130589 Lincoln: Norfolk, England
249822 Mitchell: Fulham, England
E14371 Riccio: Isernia, Italy
268283 Roberts: London, England
306012 Smith: Essex, England (not in U152 project)
308506 Strickland: Westmorland, England
B5886 Vidaillet: Haute Garonne, France
265992: Wilkins: Hertfordshire, England
H1732/209466 Wheatley: Somerset, England

MitchellSince1893
08-21-2017, 11:17 PM
With the addition of the 10 Fordney/Fortineux men the FGC12378 branch has grown by over 55%...from 18 to 28 members

Shamash
09-20-2017, 07:15 PM
A surname autosomal DNA match popped up recently on our 23andMe account: we are related to a U152+ Ricci line from the city of Benevento in Campania. I strongly suppose it's our own lineage as we are the only U152+ Ricci lineage at the moment. Benevento and Isernia where my ancestors come from are not very far from each other.

MitchellSince1893
09-28-2017, 11:45 PM
Just got a new FGC12378 match today. I've made him aware of this thread. He's already an FTDNA U152 project member.

Stephen Brace who has been stuck at the FGC12378 branch for about 3 years finally was able to form a new branch below FGC12378 with this new match 681447 Henry Schaider from Germany. Good for him.

Brace and Schaider form the 3rd branch of FGC12378, currently known by the SNP position 8485930

The 3 known branches
FGC12378 et al.> 8485930 et al.
FGC12378 et al.> FGC12401 et al
FGC12378 et al.> S20376,BY5702

There will be at least 1 more branch based on Strickland's BigY results.

Here is an updated geographic center point for FGC12378 using a single pt for England based on the the geographic mid pt of of all the English samples. Mid pt is currently in Erlach, Switzerland

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4e/29/7d/4e297d17fa6bf2256f921b027583384b.png

MitchellSince1893
10-27-2017, 10:55 PM
Alex Williamson's Date info for FGC12378/Y3140 branch

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/13/aa/47/13aa47282aa60b9745a52a082ca97c13.png
http://www.ytree.net/BlockInfo.php?blockID=780

So Alex has TMRCA date as 1319 BC (95% CI 1970-728 BC)
YFull currently has a TMRCA of 1650 BC (95% CI 2650 - 750 BC) https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y3140/
Iain McDonald has TMCRA of 1460 BC (95% CI 2284 BC — 702 BC)

MitchellSince1893
11-29-2017, 04:36 AM
A new FGC12378 et al.> S20376,BY5702 member today. 131654: Based on public family trees I'm guessing his paternal line ancestors were from Dorset, England area.

MitchellSince1893
12-30-2017, 06:24 PM
Updated the map with the latest geographic mid point for FGC12378. To reduce the British Isles testing bias I got the midpoint for all the British results (all in England) to create this map.

Located 4 miles west of Bantzenheim, France; 5 miles west of the Rhine River/German border in Alsace France, 18.5 miles North-northwest of the point where France, Germany and Switzerland meet.


http://www.geomidpoint.com/?ml=47.83195&mn=7.47277&l=52.416658|52.205022|49.872825|54.165709|47.61468 4|41.596041|39.469908|43.4008&n=-1.122|4.880913|8.651193|12.212177|20.750447|14.233 161|-0.376288|1.13536&a=Lat:+52.416658+Long:+-1.122|Mijdrecht,+Netherlands|Darmstadt,+Germany|Ni ederhagen,+18182+R%C3%B6vershagen,+Germany|Tiszaf% C3%BCred,+Hungary|86170+Isernia,+Province+of+Isern ia,+Italy|Valencia,+Spain|Lat:+43.4008+Long:+1.135 36&cl=47.32573&cn=9.81422&z=4&x=1&c=0&p=1&r=1&w=0

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1v1uXxJh_AcVwcMVlopfJqVLKAtE&hl=en_US&ll=49.43955681526288%2C5.756835625000008&z=4



No way to prove, it but I wouldn't be surprised if FGC12378's homeland was within 250 miles/400 km of this point.
https://i.pinimg.com/564x/3d/f7/d0/3df7d0aeb2b2e7151a9e2e4af246f410.jpg

Ytree's date for FGC12378 is 3268.64 YBP (1319 BC). So this would be near the beginning of the Urnfield Culture or middle of the Tumulus Culture.
https://i.pinimg.com/474x/1a/82/9a/1a829a11ee2c891e52ce4252bb5adb7f.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Europe_late_bronze_age.png/800px-Europe_late_bronze_age.png

kinman
01-06-2018, 02:03 AM
Mitchell,
Excellent map. I am even more optimistic about this midpoint. I would say the homeland of this group was within 50 miles of that point (north and south), and perhaps within just 10 miles either side of the Rhine River. But as you said, there is no way to prove it.

MitchellSince1893
01-11-2018, 02:31 AM
New FGC12378 member from the Czech Republic.

His info is not public so I cannot provide any more details, except to say his results form a new subclade of FGC12378 that no other members match.

EDIT: New geographic center point based on our Czech addition is N48.70824, E 11.03344 or just northeast of Burgheim, Germany.
20699
http://www.geomidpoint.com/ml=48.70824&mn=11.03344&l=52.416658|52.205022|49.872825|54.165709|48.35997 1|41.596041|39.469908|49.19506|48.363343&n=-1.122|4.880913|8.651193|12.212177|22.161675|14.233 161|-0.376288|16.606837|22.151102&a=Lat:+52.416658+Long:+-1.122|Mijdrecht,+Netherlands|Darmstadt,+Germany|Ni ederhagen,+18182+R%C3%B6vershagen,+Germany|Tiszaf% C3%BCred,+Hungary|86170+Isernia,+Province+of+Isern ia,+Italy|Valencia,+Spain|Brno,+Czechia|Tiszabezd% C3%A9d,+4624+Hungary&cl=48.70223&cn=11.02246&z=4&x=1&c=0&p=1&r=0&w=0

Just realized my map in post 22 above had an error. The pt in Hungary should have been further east which would have place the midpoint in Bachhagel, Germany, rather than Bantzenheim, France.

IMO FGC12378 is looking rather Urnfieldish

MitchellSince1893
03-16-2018, 04:27 AM
This article http://www.worldhistory.biz/ancient-history/64373-middle-bronze-age-2000-1600-bc.html

on the Urnfield Culture says it
first emerged in c.1300 bc in eastern Europe. During the 12th century BC. it spread into what is now Italy and northern Europe. By 850 BC, it had been adopted by Celtic tribes throughout Europe. In the Atlantic regions, however, the burial tradition remained.


About 1300 BC, at the beginning of the Late Bronze Age, a social revolution known as the Urnfield phenomenon began to transform Europe. In the course of the next 500 years, a remarkably unified culture was progressively established over much of central and western Europe. Emerging initially in western Carpathia, the phenomenon spread first, not to adjacent territory, but to the hubs of the nearby trading networks.

...it seems generally agreed that, in eastern Europe at least, the early Urnfield period was marked by major social upheaval involving significant population movements.

Associated image showing Urnfield's origin in dark green (1350 to 1250 BC) then spread to the light green (1250 to 1000 BC) "hubs of nearby trading networks" and later spread to the yellow areas (1000 to 850 BC)
http://www.worldhistory.biz/uploads/posts/2015-09/26q-36.jpg

Map of the previously established trading networks in the Middle Bronze Age
http://www.worldhistory.biz/uploads/posts/2015-09/26q-35.jpg

If the spread of FGC12378 is related to the Urnfield culture as discussed in this thread, does this mean it may have originated further east than previously discussed? i.e. the Carpathian Basin

We do have two FGC12378 men from Hungary and the Czech Republic.


If U152>L2>Z49 was part of the Upper Rhine River Bell Beaker Group, then it would mean Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12378 ended up further east ~1000 years later. Or maybe Z49 was part of a more eastern BB group and just hasn't turned up in the ancient dna yet.

kinman
03-17-2018, 01:20 PM
Hi Mitchell,
According to YFull, FGC12378 originated about 4100 years ago, which would be well before the Urnfield Culture arose about 3300 years ago. So I think any association of FGC12378 with Urnfield would have happened after Urnfield spread west to France.

I would put the origin of FGC12378 close to that of Z142 (near the Rhine river; i.e. the French-German border area). This is pretty close to your midpoint for Z150. I think Z142, Z150, and FGC12378 probably all originated in that area. The two men from Hungary and Czech Republic would be due later migrations to the east. Therefore, I think there is very little chance of finding Z49 in ancient DNA in the Carpathian Basin. I really love that map with your new midpoints.




If the spread of FGC12378 is related to the Urnfield culture as discussed in this thread, does this mean it may have originated further east than previously discussed? i.e. the Carpathian Basin

We do have two FGC12378 men from Hungary and the Czech Republic.

If U152>L2>Z49 was part of the Upper Rhine River Bell Beaker Group, then it would mean Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12378 ended up further east ~1000 years later. Or maybe Z49 was part of a more eastern BB group and just hasn't turned up in the ancient dna yet.

MitchellSince1893
03-17-2018, 01:53 PM
Hi Mitchell,
According to YFull, FGC12378 originated about 4100 years ago, which would be well before the Urnfield Culture arose about 3300 years ago. So I think any association of FGC12378 with Urnfield would have happened after Urnfield spread west to France.

I would put the origin of FGC12378 close to that of Z142 (near the Rhine river; i.e. the French-German border area). This is pretty close to your midpoint for Z150. I think Z142, Z150, and FGC12378 probably all originated in that area. The two men from Hungary and Czech Republic would be due later migrations to the east. Therefore, I think there is very little chance of finding Z49 in ancient DNA in the Carpathian Basin. I really love that map with your new midpoints.

The formed date is not germane here as all present day men who are FGC12378+ are also FGC12379/80/81/82/83. So we need to start with TMRCA date which at Yfull is 3600 ybp (1650 BC). McDonald's TMRCA is 1460 BC and ytree.net has 1319 BC. This is when the ancestor for all present day FGC12378 et al men was living.

As more men test I think the point will continue to move eastward when the British Isles testing bias is removed. When I started this thought process there were no FGC12378 samples from Hungary, Germany, or the Czech Rep. When you look at how few samples we have and the percentage in central Europe it's something that must be considered. Richard Rocca agrees with you on the Rhine River as it pertains to the origin Z49, but if Urnfield originated near Hungary and if FGC12378 et al originated in Urnfield, then we must be open to the possibility that it also originated in that area. Not saying it did, but that it's a possibility.

MitchellSince1893
06-29-2018, 01:51 AM
FGC12378 update. We now have a new, 4th branch

FGC12378 et al.>BY67101 et al. 1 sample from Sweden & 1 from Czech Rep.

is added to the list of 3 other branches
FGC12378 et al.> BY33595 et al.
FGC12378 et al.>FGC12401 et al.
FGC12378 et al.>S20376, BY5702

The geographic midpoint (Taking the midpoint for each branch for non British samples and then getting the midpoint for all the branches)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8c/f9/b2/8cf9b2a18fdca77fcffcfa4ae56bad70.png

MitchellSince1893
06-30-2018, 03:31 PM
FGC12378 update. We now have a new, 4th branch

FGC12378 et al.>BY67101 et al. 1 sample from Sweden & 1 from Czech Rep.

is added to the list of 3 other branches
FGC12378 et al.> BY33595 et al.
FGC12378 et al.>FGC12401 et al.
FGC12378 et al.>S20376, BY5702

The geographic midpoint (Taking the midpoint for each branch for non British samples and then getting the midpoint for all the branches)

Previous map left out sample from Valencia, Spain. This version includes it.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/44/dc/dd/44dcdd7d3a76b23b1828feeed0cf6957.png

MitchellSince1893
06-30-2018, 04:09 PM
With the few samples available, a pattern for U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378 in Britain might be emerging.

Purple Dots: FGC12378>BY33595
Blue Dots: FGC12378>FGC12401
Red Dots: FGC12378>S20376, BY5702
Yellow Dots: FGC12378>Unknown Branch

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/2e/04/c62e04aa9d455e073671b3e39c59d78f.png

BY33595 presently in southern Britain (England & Wales)
FGC12401 seems to be more in Western England & Lowland Scotland
S20376, BY5702 more in Southeastern England

MitchellSince1893
08-04-2018, 02:59 AM
FGC12378 update. We now have a new, 4th branch

FGC12378 et al.>BY67101 et al. 1 sample from Sweden & 1 from Czech Rep.

is added to the list of 3 other branches
FGC12378 et al.> BY33595 et al.
FGC12378 et al.>FGC12401 et al.
FGC12378 et al.>S20376, BY5702

The geographic midpoint (Taking the midpoint for each branch for non British samples and then getting the midpoint for all the branches)


Further digging indicates that the FGC12378 et al.>BY67101 et al. from Sweden, was born in Ilsenburg, Germany, and died in Sweden. This moves the mid point for FGC12378 to

N 49.556581
E 9.663685

near Oberlauda, Baden-Wuerttemberg, Germany (Gold circle/white star)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9a/d8/6a/9ad86acf3097b60f6cd0d03e44c62b8a.png
Gold dots=TBD FGC12378 subclade
Blue dots=FGC12401
Red dots=S20376/BY5702
Purple dots=BY33595
Green dots=BY67101

With the addition of the Czech and German/Swedish samples Yfull has updated the Most Recent Common Ancestor Dates (MRCA) date for FGC12378 et al.
is
1350 BC (95% Confidence Interval 2250-450 BC)

ytree.net gets 1315 BC (95% CI 1970 BC to 728 BC)

McDonald still has 1460 BC (95% CI 2284 BC — 702 BC)

IMO, the Urnfield Culture (1300 BC – 750 BC) is a front runner in explaining the current geographic distribution in Continental Europe.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cb/6f/73/cb6f7316ef5ef32908d76ebba182a2b6.png

Based on the above, I think we can probably eliminate Bell Beaker as a source for FGC12378 in the UK and Ireland....just too old if the above dates are accurate.

As best as I can tell Urnfield wasn't a factor in Britain, so that leaves us with Iron Age arrivals (Hallstatt, La Tene, Belgae), Roman Era arrivals (e.g Roman Auxiliaries from Gaul and the Low Countries), the Migration Period (300-700 AD) arrivals, Viking era, Normans/Flemish, or some combination.

Looking at the map on post #80 of this thread, FGC12378>FGC12401 samples seem to mostly be outside of the area of Coin using Celtic tribes/Belgic Tribes/Romano-Britain/Early Anglo-Saxon areas, while FGC12378>S20376, BY5702 samples are mostly within this area of Southern/Southeastern England.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjKycLSzNLcAhVq9YMKHdGSD3AQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.co.uk%2Fpin%2F4129 23859567933015%2F&psig=AOvVaw1suuWvabl5LqzpRKLDdRHw&ust=1533444197628724
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_Tribes_c.AD43.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/End.of.Roman.rule.in.Britain.383.410.jpg/800px-End.of.Roman.rule.in.Britain.383.410.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Britain.5th.cen.AS.cemeteries.jpg

Or to use the Peopling of the British Isles (POBI) study, FGC12378>FGC12401 is mostly outside the Red England area, while FGC12378>S20376, BY5702 is currently mostly within it. http://www.well.ox.ac.uk/_asset/image/pobi-map-jpg.jpeg

MitchellSince1893
08-04-2018, 10:33 PM
...IMO, the Urnfield Culture (1300 BC – 750 BC) is a front runner in explaining the current geographic distribution in Continental Europe.
...
As best as I can tell Urnfield wasn't a factor in Britain...

While rare, Bronze Age Urnfield sites do exist in Britain

An enclosed Bronze Age urnfield is a burial ground in which cremations, usually placed in cinerary urns, were interred within a circular enclosure up to 30m in diameter. This was formed by either a ditch, a bank, or a bank within a stone circle. There was normally an entrance or causeway allowing access into the enclosure, where a central mound or standing stone is sometimes found. Excavated examples are known to date to the Middle Bronze Age between the 16th and 11th centuries BC. Enclosed Bronze Age urnfields are largely found in the north of England, mainly in Yorkshire, Cumbria and Northumberland, although their distribution also extends into Scotland. They are a rare type of Bronze Age burial monument, with fewer than 50 identified examples and provide an important insight into beliefs and social organisation during this period.

So far I haven't been able to find the location of all of these sites but I did find these locations from this source.
https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/results?searchtype=nhleadvanced


Map of Urnfield locations from above site
http://www.geomidpoint.com/?ml=53.10211&mn=-1.22872&l=53.747792|50.653362|51.089358|52.657672|53.90840 5|50.903191|53.742901|53.725138|54.490175|54.49726 8|54.493263|50.852775|55.498648&n=-1.922696|-2.433071|1.198762|0.482531|-2.644884|-0.503395|-1.981226|-2.087465|-0.921652|-0.943563|-0.905569|-1.455154|-2.018056&a=5+Green+Royd,+Halifax+HX2+0UA,+UK|Preston,+Weymo uth+DT3,+UK|64+Wear+Bay+Rd,+Folkestone+CT19+6PU,+U K|Shouldham,+King%27s+Lynn+PE33,+UK|Bleasdale,+Pre ston+PR3+1UY,+UK|Rackham,+Pulborough+RH20+2EU,+UK| Chiserley,+Hebden+Bridge+HX7+8SG,+UK|Hole+Bottom+R d,+Todmorden+OL14+8DD,+UK|Gerrick,+Saltburn-by-the-Sea+TS12+3LW,+UK|Moorsholm,+Saltburn-by-the-Sea+TS12+3LL,+UK|Gerrick,+Saltburn-by-the-Sea+TS12+3LW,+UK|King%27s+Hat+Inclosure,+UK,+North +Ln,+Brockenhurst+SO42+7YN,+United+Kingdom|South+M iddleton,+Alnwick+NE66+4YE,+UK&cl=55.49679&cn=-2.01589&z=12&x=1&c=0&p=1&r=0&w=1

Due to its locations in Northern England and Scotland it makes me wonder if the FGC12401 branch of FGC12378 in Britain is tied to Urnfield era arrivals.


Urnfields are often considered to be a central European phenomenon, and it is true that they are found throughout Germany, Austria, Slovenia, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, and Poland. But they also extend well to the west in France and south into Spain and Italy. In Scandinavia and the British Isles, there was also a transition to cremation burial during the Late Bronze Age, but these areas lack the vast cemeteries with dozens of burials that mark the classic Urnfield expression in central and western continental Europe.https://www.encyclopedia.com/humanities/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/late-bronze-age-urnfields-central-europe

Titus Valerius
08-05-2018, 10:11 AM
Hi all, in the paper of Di Cristofaro et al. " Prehistoric migration.... Corsican Y Chromosome" I have found among 109 U152s+, two samples certainly L2+ Z142+ FGC2293+ etc. Because they have at 385a,b 11-13.2 and 11-14.2 just like two my friends of mine. Here are their STRS
Sample 931 13 24 14 11 11 14.2 12 13 13 29 17 15 18 11 15 12 2
Sample 954 13 24 15 11 11 13.2 12 13 13 30 18 15 18 10 15 12 23
R.Bologna 13 24 14 11 11 14.2 11 13 14 29 17 15 18 11 15 12 -
M. Corsi 13 23 14 11 11 13.2 12 14 13 30 17 15 18 11 15 12 -
F. Firenze 13 24 13 11 11-14 12 14 12 30 18 15 20 11 16 12 -
Bologna is FGC 22942+ - Corsi is S23458+ - Firenze is FGC22963 * on Yfull id YF11950
In this paper they didn't test downstream of U152 and they found 109 U152s out 298 tested : about 37%

MitchellSince1893
11-03-2018, 03:52 PM
The new FTDNA haplotree makes it easy to know when a new member of FGC12378 appears. When it first came out a month ago there were 31 members.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-FGC12378

Now a 32nd member from Germany has joined FGC12378 et al.> BY67101 (green dot in the center of "Germany"). Taking the geographic center point for each of the non UK and Ireland FGC12378 branch members and generic FGC12378 members and then from those center points getting a new geographic center point

Puts FGC12378's geographic center point in the Limburg-Weilburg district in Hesse, Germany (yellow circle with white star)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e3/34/d7/e334d7cfe6884b8df1f033c5009139bc.png

MitchellSince1893
12-30-2018, 07:58 PM
There is a new 5th branch of FGC12378 in the FTDNA database

BY660660 et al (at bottom of image below). Only known sample is from Westmorland England.

Current tree structure (color coded for each FGC12378 branch)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/71/4a/2b714a3846fc905146da2f3c7fb0226e.png

MitchellSince1893
04-13-2019, 05:32 AM
Got a new FGC12378 sample in the FTDNA database, bringing the total to 36. It's an unknown surname sample located in France and is in the FGC12378>S20376 subclade.

So I updated geographic mid point for FGC12378 based on the geographic midpoint of each FGC12378 subclade excluding British Isles samples (highly doubtful FGC12378 originated in the British Isles).

Map Legend
Star Icons: Geographic Mid pt for each FGC12378 branch
Blue=FCG12378>FGC12401
Red=FCG12378>S20376,BY5702
Purple=FCG12378>BY33595
Green=FCG12378>BY67101
Yellow=FGC12378 unknown subclade
Black=FGC12378 overall mid point of all the FGC12378 branches and FGC12378 unknown subclade sampleshttps://i.pinimg.com/originals/57/78/35/5778352dab8b2854a05582649001746b.png

The overall geographic mid point (black circle with white star) is currently close to the Rhine River, just south of Heidleburg, Germany

MitchellSince1893
09-07-2019, 07:17 PM
There is a new 5th branch of FGC12378 in the FTDNA database

BY660660 et al (at bottom of image below). Only known sample is from Westmorland England.

Current tree structure (color coded for each FGC12378 branch)
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/71/4a/2b714a3846fc905146da2f3c7fb0226e.png

FTDNA has updated FGC12378's tree structure. Going from 5 to 3 Branches
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/82/f1/06/82f10604619078899fa1a868f64ba8ac.png

Note that the old FGC12378 SNP block (FGC12378, FGC12380, FGC12381, FGC12382, FGC12383, FGC47869) has lost FGC47869.

FGC47869 is now a branch under the smaller FGC12378 SNP block

FGC12401 (previously directly under FGC12378 branch) and
BY5702 (previously directly under FGC12378)
BY33595 previously directly under FGC12378)

are now directly under FCG47869.

I'm hesitant to update my FGC12378 map based on this new structure, because I'm not sure if this is just an automated change of the FTDNA tree that may revert back once an analyst reviews the new results more carefully.

MitchellSince1893
09-07-2019, 09:28 PM
Also of note, after a 5 month drought, we finally have a new FGC12378 member. MRCA surname is Brahmstadt, from Germany, on the BY5702>S0376 branch of FGC12378

Updated FGC12378 Map...still using old tree structure

Star Icons: Geographic Mid pt for each FGC12378 branch
Blue=FCG12378>FGC12401
Red=FCG12378>S20376,BY5702
Purple=FCG12378>BY33595
Green=FCG12378>BY67101
Yellow=FGC12378 unknown subclade
Black=FGC12378 overall mid point of all the FGC12378 branches and FGC12378 unknown subclade samples
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/2d/93/c72d936af509eb5c4241786aec8c2e52.png

MitchellSince1893
09-08-2019, 04:14 PM
I went ahead and updated the FGC12378 map based on the new structure of 3 branches.
Red=FGC12378>BY66060
Green=FGC12378>BY67101
Blues & Purple = FGC12378>FGC47869
Light Blue=FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401
Medium Blue=FGC12378>FGC47869>BY5702
Purple=FGC12378>FGC47869>BY33595

Stars are geographic midpoints for samples (excluding British Isles samples)
Dark Blue Star is the mid point for the Light Blue, Medium Blue, and Purple Branches i.e. Mid pt of the FGC47869 branch
Black Star is the mid point for FGC12378 as a whole using the unknown Branches (Yellow star), FGC47869 branch, and BY67101 branch (BY66060 has no non British Isles samples at the moment)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/86/b0/6a/86b06af985b05d1c9588fa1004976220.png

Shamash
11-13-2019, 08:32 PM
Are there any news from our subclade? No aDNA at all I suppose?

MitchellSince1893
11-13-2019, 08:59 PM
Are there any news from our subclade? No aDNA at all I suppose?

No ancient DNA...in fact I don't believe there has been any ancient Z49 either. Odd since, it's currently the largest subclade of L2, and there are several ancient L2 samples.

This week a new BY66060 sample came in, but the owner lists "United States" as the birth location of his MRCA, so no help there. So there are 38 FGC12378 samples in the FTDNA database.

Wish I had more to report :(

As of late, ths hobby is like watching trees grow...very slow.

MitchellSince1893
11-14-2019, 02:12 PM
No ancient DNA...in fact I don't believe there has been any ancient Z49 either. Odd since, it's currently the largest subclade of L2, and there are several ancient L2 samples.

This week a new BY66060 sample came in, but the owner lists "United States" as the birth location of his MRCA, so no help there. So there are 38 FGC12378 samples in the FTDNA database.


Wish I had more to report :(

As of late, ths hobby is like watching trees grow...very slow.

Forgot to mention, while not ancient, these are the oldest Z142 samples I’m aware of. One is also Z142>Z12222

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2924-Branches-of-Z142&p=583616&viewfull=1#post583616

Shamash
11-15-2019, 08:39 AM
Forgot to mention, while not ancient, these are the oldest Z142 samples I’m aware of. One is also Z142>Z12222

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2924-Branches-of-Z142&p=583616&viewfull=1#post583616

Thanks for mentioning that! Interesting to see that it appears in this study in a Wiking (Germanic) context...

Shamash
11-26-2019, 08:13 PM
What are the chances that our shared specific subclade (my grandfather's line and the Hungarian sample) is Germanic and therefore in South Italy and Eastern Hungary as a result of the medieval migration period? Is it that clear that it is Celtic? What are your thoughts?

MitchellSince1893
12-03-2019, 01:53 PM
What are the chances that our shared specific subclade (my grandfather's line and the Hungarian sample) is Germanic and therefore in South Italy and Eastern Hungary as a result of the medieval migration period? Is it that clear that it is Celtic? What are your thoughts?

Sorry, I just saw your post. At this point there is just no way of knowing. Your shared ancestor lived almost 3000 years ago, so there are so many possibilities.

asquecco
12-03-2019, 03:03 PM
No ancient DNA...in fact I don't believe there has been any ancient Z49 either. Odd since, it's currently the largest subclade of L2, and there are several ancient L2 samples.

Currently Italy/Veneto seems a good place for Z49+:
https://bit.ly/YDNA-R-S20782
so I hope this forthcoming research will find some of them living there in the past:

"Disentangling fine-scale population movements and interactions in the Italian Veneto Area: an archaeogenetic diachronic study of the inhabitants of Lamon”
Summary: This project will study the dynamics of a population from the Italian eastern Alps over 2,000 years by combining traditional archaeological methods with cutting edge techniques in archaeological science. Ancient DNA will be obtained from skeletal human remains from two archaeological necropolises of Roman, Medieval and post-Medieval age from the village of Lamon, Veneto, and compared to the DNA of the current inhabitants of the same area. This project, developed in collaboration with the Archaeological Museum of Lamon, is expected to enrich the knowledge of the cultural heritage of the region while allowing a direct involvement of the local population in the project.

vettor
12-03-2019, 04:54 PM
Currently Italy/Veneto seems a good place for Z49+:
https://bit.ly/YDNA-R-S20782
so I hope this forthcoming research will find some of them living there in the past:

"Disentangling fine-scale population movements and interactions in the Italian Veneto Area: an archaeogenetic diachronic study of the inhabitants of Lamon”
Summary: This project will study the dynamics of a population from the Italian eastern Alps over 2,000 years by combining traditional archaeological methods with cutting edge techniques in archaeological science. Ancient DNA will be obtained from skeletal human remains from two archaeological necropolises of Roman, Medieval and post-Medieval age from the village of Lamon, Veneto, and compared to the DNA of the current inhabitants of the same area. This project, developed in collaboration with the Archaeological Museum of Lamon, is expected to enrich the knowledge of the cultural heritage of the region while allowing a direct involvement of the local population in the project.

My mother line is R1b-S8172

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S8172/

she is from San Zenone deghi Ezzelini to Monfumo areas , a Trevisan, Veneto Area with links to Tyrol ( if one believes ftdna ) .......................do you know if this could be part of the Lamon tests

my paternal line has dna links with a few families from Fonzaso town which is next door to Lamon ..............this looks really interesting

asquecco
12-07-2019, 10:11 AM
My mother line is R1b-S8172

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S8172/

she is from San Zenone deghi Ezzelini to Monfumo areas , a Trevisan, Veneto Area with links to Tyrol ( if one believes ftdna ) .......................do you know if this could be part of the Lamon tests

my paternal line has dna links with a few families from Fonzaso town which is next door to Lamon ..............this looks really interesting

The research is still at the funding stage.
The interested area is around Lamon: [in italian]
https://corrierealpi.gelocal.it/belluno/cronaca/2013/04/07/news/necropoli-e-tombe-in-una-mappa-digitale-che-rilancia-lamon-1.6845059

MitchellSince1893
12-10-2019, 04:37 AM
Recently got the 39th member of FGC12378 in FTDNA's haplotree. Member is unknown surname and location. While checking the other kits, I saw that a previous unknown France location now has a name with it. Based on this I was able to find a birth location in Rennes, France for his MRCA. With this new info I updated the geo mid points.

FGC12378>FGC47869>BY5702 mipoint moved NW, still in France (Blue circle with white star). This in turn moved the FGC12378>FGC47869 midpoint further West towards the Rhine (dark blue circle with white star). I also updated the overall FGC12378 midpoint (Black circle with white star)
N 50.720969 E 9.40

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7e/8b/74/7e8b74c3833a76086b0fcdaa97a49c2a.png

MitchellSince1893
01-17-2020, 05:26 AM
There's presently a 2000 year gap between the TMRCA of FGC12378>FGC12401 and FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384.

FGC12378>FGC12401 is estimated to have a TMRCA of 1003 BC (yfull.com) to 1172 BC (ytree.net) with members from Britain, Italy, and Hungary
FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384 has a TMRCA of ~1175 AD with 100% British membership (one is assumed English).

Keep hoping some one will test that will break up the FGC12384 36-SNP block. Maybe 2020 is the year. :pray:

MitchellSince1893
02-12-2020, 05:42 AM
...While checking the other kits, I saw that a previous unknown France location now has a name with it. Based on this I was able to find a birth location in Rennes, France for his MRCA. With this new info I updated the geo mid points.
Got the 40th member today. Same paternal ancestor as the French member mentioned above, so no updates to the maps were made.

Looks like we are averaging about 1 new FCC12378 member every 2 months.

MitchellSince1893
03-18-2020, 05:47 PM
Got 3 new members, so FGC12378 total is 43. Two are FGC12378>FGC47869>BY5702 and have same/similar surname to existing members (Fortney/Fortineux) One from Germany, 1 from Netherlands.

3rd new member is unknown surname, unknown origin and in FGC12379>FGC47869>BY33595.

Data updated, but no movement of map center points.

MitchellSince1893
04-08-2020, 04:31 AM
44th member. On the FGC12378 et al.> BY66060 et al. branch. Unknown surname, unknown location. Not a member of the U152 project. No update to map center points can be made.

MitchellSince1893
05-10-2020, 03:01 AM
45th member is from Italy. Unknown surname and not currently in the FTDNA. U152 project.

Currently assigned to FGC12378>FGC47869. He may be the first member of a new/yet to named subclade, as he has not been assigned to any of the 3 existing subclades:

FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401
FGC12378>FGC47869>BY5702
FGC12378>FGC47869>BY33595

He is the 2nd Italian in FGC12378.

At present this is the total for each country in the FTDNA tree:
12 Unknown
10 England
7 US
5 Germany
3 France
2 Italy
2 Netherlands
1 Czech Republic
1 Hungary
1 Scotland
1 Sweden

In addition to what is in the FTDNA haplotree, there is another FGC12378 member from Spain found in the 1000 Genome project (the original FGC12378), and 2 from the Netherlands via Genome of the Netherlands Project.

MitchellSince1893
11-10-2020, 05:51 AM
Around July 3rd, we got our 46th member. At the time I didnt' bother to update this thread as the new member didnt' have any known info (generic American with no MRCA).
New total
12 Unknown
10 England
8 US
5 Germany
3 France
2 Italy
2 Netherlands
1 Czech Republic
1 Hungary
1 Scotland
1 Sweden

Outside the FTDNA database there is also
2 Netherlands
1 Spain


Since then we've hit a dry spell (over 4 months with no new FGC12378 samples); and since pandemic started, it appears FTDNA testing as slowed down dramatically. U152 and other R1b subclade growth as slowed down quite a bit this year, especially in the FTDNA projects.

For example, if previous growth rates had been maintained, the U152 project would have passed the 3000 mark in Sep 2020. As of today it has 2897, and probably won't cross the 3000 mark until April or May of 2021. Hopefully things will pick up after the FTDNA Holliday sales.

MitchellSince1893
12-17-2020, 05:58 AM
After a 5 month drought we got our 47th member.

New member of FGC12378>FGC47869>BY5702. Unknown location. But based on surname it's going to be Germany or Netherlands due to similar surnames in FTDNA project.