PDA

View Full Version : Ancestry Results for ashwinb (South Asian)



ashwinb
03-30-2015, 07:49 PM
So I finally got my 23andMe results. I still need to explore, meanwhile will post all that I can see on my account. Would like to connect with more south asians on 23andMe, so please send me your 23andme nicknames, or yo could add me on ashwinb.
Y-DNA: R1a1a, not surprising at all.
Mt-DNA: M31a2, I'm really not able to find much about this one, any pointers would be great.
Neanderthal ancestry: 2.3%

My closest matches are still being calculated, so that should take a few more days.
I want to know where all I could get more analysis done, I just submitted to the Harappa Ancestry Project.
Ancestry: Paternal is Gujarati brahmin , maternal Maharashtrian brahmin.

ashwinb
03-30-2015, 07:49 PM
Eurogenes K13 4-Ancestors Oracle


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 62.45
2 West_Asian 24.58
3 Baltic 4.64
4 Siberian 2.16
5 North_Atlantic 1.95
6 East_Med 1.69

east-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Kshatriya @ 5.230418
2 Gujarati @ 6.299126
3 Dharkar @ 6.669928
4 Kanjar @ 7.657192
5 Velamas @ 9.708447
6 Brahmin_UP @ 10.105373
7 Kurumba @ 10.658965
8 Bangladeshi @ 11.459984
9 Uttar_Pradesh @ 11.588837
10 Kol @ 12.741540
11 Dusadh @ 12.967088
12 North_Kannadi @ 14.041996
13 Piramalai @ 15.740882
14 Chenchu @ 16.556236
15 Sakilli @ 19.788280
16 Chamar @ 20.060690
17 Sindhi @ 23.119513
18 Punjabi_Jat @ 23.604017
19 Pathan @ 27.471163
20 Burusho @ 29.691248

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Gujarati +50% Velamas @ 2.619573


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Gujarati +25% Kanjar +25% Velamas @ 2.229899


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Gujarati + North_Kannadi + North_Kannadi + Sindhi @ 1.686585
2 Kanjar + Kurumba + Kurumba + Pathan @ 1.907542
3 Gujarati + Pathan + Piramalai + Piramalai @ 1.932669
4 Kalash + Kurumba + North_Kannadi + Velamas @ 1.942621
5 Gujarati + North_Kannadi + Piramalai + Sindhi @ 1.991541
6 Kalash + Kurumba + Kurumba + North_Kannadi @ 2.009942
7 Kalash + North_Kannadi + North_Kannadi + Velamas @ 2.014863
8 Kanjar + Kurumba + Pathan + Velamas @ 2.019137
9 Dharkar + Gujarati + Gujarati + Velamas @ 2.026016
10 Kshatriya + Kurumba + North_Kannadi + Sindhi @ 2.064446
11 Kshatriya + North_Kannadi + North_Kannadi + Sindhi @ 2.068231
12 Chamar + Gujarati + Kurumba + Pathan @ 2.069897
13 Chamar + Gujarati + Kanjar + Sindhi @ 2.086982
14 Kshatriya + Pathan + Piramalai + Piramalai @ 2.119101
15 Kanjar + Punjabi_Jat + Velamas + Velamas @ 2.132820
16 Kalash + North_Kannadi + Piramalai + Velamas @ 2.140451
17 Chamar + Gujarati + Pathan + Piramalai @ 2.145227
18 Gujarati + Kol + North_Kannadi + Sindhi @ 2.148614
19 Chamar + Kalash + Kanjar + Velamas @ 2.150538
20 Dharkar + Punjabi_Jat + Velamas + Velamas @ 2.157695

ashwinb
03-30-2015, 07:50 PM
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.98
2 Baloch 35.32
3 NE-Euro 6.04
4 Caucasian 5.33
5 Siberian 1.39
6 SW-Asian 1.19

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 rajasthani @ 2.521439
2 iyengar-brahmin @ 2.800653
3 ap-brahmin @ 2.934430
4 iyer-brahmin @ 3.396393
5 maharashtrian @ 3.455382
6 singapore-indian-b @ 3.531085
7 karnataka-brahmin @ 3.808891
8 brahmin-tamil-nadu @ 3.938123
9 tn-brahmin @ 3.997646
10 up @ 4.261974
11 meghawal @ 4.398147
12 kerala-christian @ 4.825161
13 bihari @ 4.848842
14 goan @ 4.851134
15 gujarati @ 4.891270
16 kerala-nair @ 4.946877
17 meghawal @ 5.158414
18 srivastava @ 5.215651
19 up-kshatriya @ 5.568129
20 sourastrian @ 6.122046

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% brahmin-tamil-nadu +50% srivastava @ 1.990437


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% meghawal +25% punjabi-brahmin +25% tamil-vishwakarma @ 1.619596


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + sindhi + vysya + vysya @ 1.325360
2 sindhi + up-brahmin + vysya + vysya @ 1.338109
3 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + naidu + sindhi + vysya @ 1.397373
4 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + sindhi + tn-dalit @ 1.420815
5 pathan + vaish + vysya + vysya @ 1.454749
6 bhatia + tamil-vishwakarma + up-brahmin + vysya @ 1.456638
7 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + kurumba + sindhi + vysya @ 1.461819
8 iyengar-brahmin + meghawal + punjabi-brahmin + tamil-vishwakarma @ 1.471598
9 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + sindhi + tn-dalit @ 1.472761
10 meghawal + naidu + rajasthani-brahmin + velama @ 1.480106
11 bhatia + sakilli + up-brahmin + vysya @ 1.495131
12 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + mala + sindhi @ 1.519621
13 iyengar-brahmin + meghawal + singapore-indian-c + tamil-vishwakarma @ 1.524758
14 meghawal + meghawal + rajasthani-brahmin + vysya @ 1.528086
15 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + sindhi + singapore-indian-a + vysya @ 1.532520
16 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + piramalai-kallar + sindhi + vysya @ 1.536394
17 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + mala + sindhi @ 1.538082
18 gujarati-a + mala + sindhi + up-brahmin @ 1.540644
19 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + pathan + vysya + vysya @ 1.542955
20 bhatia + tamil-vishwakarma + vaish + velama @ 1.543489

ashwinb
03-30-2015, 07:52 PM
Eurogenes V2 K15 :

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 65.35
2 West_Asian 17.17
3 Eastern_Euro 9.33
4 Atlantic 1.85
5 East_Med 1.64
6 Siberian 1.52
7 Baltic 1.06
8 Sub-Saharan 1.01

ashwinb
03-30-2015, 07:54 PM
Dodecad K12b 4-Ancestors Oracle


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 49.64
2 Gedrosia 34.67
3 North_European 7.13
4 Caucasus 6.00
5 East_Asian 1.49

paulgill
04-09-2015, 07:58 AM
To get good idea about all this you need to get in touch with Parasar or Dr. McNinja, good luck.
So I finally got my 23andMe results. I still need to explore, meanwhile will post all that I can see on my account. Would like to connect with more south asians on 23andMe, so please send me your 23andme nicknames, or yo could add me on ashwinb.
Y-DNA: R1a1a, not surprising at all.
Mt-DNA: M31a2, I'm really not able to find much about this one, any pointers would be great.
Neanderthal ancestry: 2.3%

My closest matches are still being calculated, so that should take a few more days.
I want to know where all I could get more analysis done, I just submitted to the Harappa Ancestry Project.
Ancestry: Paternal is Gujarati brahmin , maternal Maharashtrian brahmin.

Dr_McNinja
04-09-2015, 11:12 AM
Can you post your Eurogenes ANE K7 calculator results ?

BMG
04-09-2015, 03:25 PM
I haven't seen much results from your region . But your overall ancestry is quite similar to south Indian brahmins from Karnataka and Tamilnad

ashwinb
04-10-2015, 01:05 AM
Can you post your Eurogenes ANE K7 calculator results ?

Eurogenes_ANE K7
Population
ANE29.37%
ASE19.46%
WHG-UHG-
East_Eurasian6.97%
West_African-
East_African4.82%
ENF39.38%
I actually havent seen many K7 results from India, how do these number differ for different communities/regions?

ashwinb
04-10-2015, 01:07 AM
I haven't seen much results from your region . But your overall ancestry is quite similar to south Indian brahmins from Karnataka and Tamilnad

The "maharashtra" sample is further away from the "Iyengar brahmin" sample. The Rajasthani sample too is pretty close. A part of my ancestry is from Gujarat, could this probably explain that?

Dr_McNinja
04-10-2015, 01:19 AM
Eurogenes_ANE K7
Population
ANE29.37%
ASE19.46%
WHG-UHG-
East_Eurasian6.97%
West_African-
East_African4.82%
ENF39.38%
I actually havent seen many K7 results from India, how do these number differ for different communities/regions?

You can see some here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE#gid=43

BMG
04-10-2015, 03:14 AM
Is your Gujrati side Naagar brahmins?

ashwinb
04-11-2015, 03:22 AM
Is your Gujrati side Naagar brahmins?

Nopes. My family's from central Gujarat.
So what could the WHG signify historically? Which population could that be from?
And what does the " south-asian-himalayan" compnent mean, is there a discussion on these components anywhere?

ashwinb
04-11-2015, 03:25 AM
And why is my "east eurasian" score so high?

Dr_McNinja
04-11-2015, 03:54 AM
Nopes. My family's from central Gujarat.
So what could the WHG signify historically? Which population could that be from?
And what does the " south-asian-himalayan" compnent mean, is there a discussion on these components anywhere?

I made up the ones on the right based on the core 7 components of the calculator. Himalayan just used East Eurasian and ASE.

Your East Eurasian is only a little higher than other West/South Indian Brahmins. There's a lot of fluctuation in that in India.

WHG is European admixture most likely.

ashwinb
04-11-2015, 04:04 AM
So what's european admixture, how's it different from ANE?

ashwinb
04-11-2015, 04:08 AM
And why are some of the Steppe kind of components completely absent while being almost 20-30% in some related populations?

ashwinb
04-11-2015, 04:13 AM
So the ASE is completely unrelated to the Pre/EArly/neolithic components? Or could there be some overlap..

tamilgangster
04-25-2015, 10:36 AM
HarappaWorld 4-Ancestors Oracle

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 48.98
2 Baloch 35.32
3 NE-Euro 6.04
4 Caucasian 5.33
5 Siberian 1.39
6 SW-Asian 1.19

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 rajasthani @ 2.521439
2 iyengar-brahmin @ 2.800653
3 ap-brahmin @ 2.934430
4 iyer-brahmin @ 3.396393
5 maharashtrian @ 3.455382
6 singapore-indian-b @ 3.531085
7 karnataka-brahmin @ 3.808891
8 brahmin-tamil-nadu @ 3.938123
9 tn-brahmin @ 3.997646
10 up @ 4.261974
11 meghawal @ 4.398147
12 kerala-christian @ 4.825161
13 bihari @ 4.848842
14 goan @ 4.851134
15 gujarati @ 4.891270
16 kerala-nair @ 4.946877
17 meghawal @ 5.158414
18 srivastava @ 5.215651
19 up-kshatriya @ 5.568129
20 sourastrian @ 6.122046

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% brahmin-tamil-nadu +50% srivastava @ 1.990437


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% meghawal +25% punjabi-brahmin +25% tamil-vishwakarma @ 1.619596


Using 4 populations approximation:
1 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + sindhi + vysya + vysya @ 1.325360
2 sindhi + up-brahmin + vysya + vysya @ 1.338109
3 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + naidu + sindhi + vysya @ 1.397373
4 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + sindhi + tn-dalit @ 1.420815
5 pathan + vaish + vysya + vysya @ 1.454749
6 bhatia + tamil-vishwakarma + up-brahmin + vysya @ 1.456638
7 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + kurumba + sindhi + vysya @ 1.461819
8 iyengar-brahmin + meghawal + punjabi-brahmin + tamil-vishwakarma @ 1.471598
9 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + sindhi + tn-dalit @ 1.472761
10 meghawal + naidu + rajasthani-brahmin + velama @ 1.480106
11 bhatia + sakilli + up-brahmin + vysya @ 1.495131
12 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + mala + sindhi @ 1.519621
13 iyengar-brahmin + meghawal + singapore-indian-c + tamil-vishwakarma @ 1.524758
14 meghawal + meghawal + rajasthani-brahmin + vysya @ 1.528086
15 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + sindhi + singapore-indian-a + vysya @ 1.532520
16 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + piramalai-kallar + sindhi + vysya @ 1.536394
17 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + gujarati-a + mala + sindhi @ 1.538082
18 gujarati-a + mala + sindhi + up-brahmin @ 1.540644
19 brahmin-uttar-pradesh + pathan + vysya + vysya @ 1.542955
20 bhatia + tamil-vishwakarma + vaish + velama @ 1.543489

THats a fairly high south indian score for a nondravidian brahmin, your results seem very similar to tamil brahmin samples.

ashwinb
04-25-2015, 07:58 PM
Yes, tamil brahmin samples are amongst the closest to my sample, apart from the rajasthani sample. I believe many maharashtrian brahmins would have similar scores. So thats consistent with claims(that someone had made on another forum) that tamil brahmins are probably descendent from maharashtrian and gujarati brahmins.

Dr_McNinja
04-25-2015, 10:07 PM
ANE could be of multiple sources. WHG is usually identified as quintessentially European because the ultimate source in places outside Europe probably was from near Europe, whereas ANE is ultimately from North/Central Asia and common in Asian populations (including Native Americans).

ASE in and of itself is almost archaic in age. Probably older than ANE. One of the first branches off the Eurasian family tree. In the spreadsheet, ASE went into South Asian components only.

Sein
04-25-2015, 10:23 PM
Deleted: Wrong thread.

tamilgangster
04-26-2015, 01:23 AM
THat makes sense because maharastian and gujurati brahmins are considered pancha dravida brahmins. The other major lineage are the pancha gauda brahmins which include, kashmiri, maithili, nepali bengali etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancha-Gauda

ashwinb
04-26-2015, 04:31 AM
THat makes sense because maharastian and gujurati brahmins are considered pancha dravida brahmins. The other major lineage are the pancha gauda brahmins which include, kashmiri, maithili, nepali bengali etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancha-Gauda

That's interesting, wasn't aware of such a division.

ashwinb
04-26-2015, 04:35 AM
ANE could be of multiple sources. WHG is usually identified as quintessentially European because the ultimate source in places outside Europe probably was from near Europe, whereas ANE is ultimately from North/Central Asia and common in Asian populations (including Native Americans).

ASE in and of itself is almost archaic in age. Probably older than ANE. One of the first branches off the Eurasian family tree. In the spreadsheet, ASE went into South Asian components only.

It's a little surprising that a component is present 7-12% in some north indian groups, while being 0.0% in my sample. I would expect any such component to be there at a lower %, not 0. So what could the WHG component possibly map to , in the Harappa components, the East-European component ?

ashwinb
04-29-2015, 05:21 PM
K6

Yamnaya_related 0.355498
WHG_extra 1E-005
ENA 0.19516
Middle_Eastern 0.413738
Pre-Yamnaya 1E-005
Sub-Saharan 0.035584

K8

ANE 0.305129
South_Eurasian 0.188417
Near_Eastern 0.35923
East_Eurasian 0.047213
WHG 1E-005
Oceanian 0.055839
Pygmy 1E-005
Sub-Saharan 0.044152

K9

East_Asian 1E-005
Siberian 0.005678
Sub-Saharan 1E-005
Oceanian 0.009891
Central_Asian 0.309863
South_Asian 0.601221
Amerindian 0.009746
European 0.044162
EEF 0.01942

ashwinb
04-29-2015, 07:44 PM
Plot I got from David.
4445

ashwinb
05-03-2015, 09:21 PM
Dodecad World9
# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 55.25
2 Caucasus_Gedrosia 34.49
3 Atlantic_Baltic 5.31
4 Siberian 2.21
5 Southern 1.58

Toor
05-03-2015, 10:20 PM
Interesting results, both your Gujarati and Marathi sides are visible from the groups you clustering with.

ashwinb
05-04-2015, 03:17 AM
Right..that also could be because the communities aren't themselves well separated enough. maybe just a few hundred years of separation. Also there are multiple endogamous communities among gujarati brahmins, possibly having different origins. Up Brahmins too are significantly closer to my sample(ofcourse not as much as guj-mah-south brahmins).

Slayer
05-06-2015, 01:07 AM
Interesting results, both your Gujarati and Marathi sides are visible from the groups you clustering with.

No, not quite. The subject is atypical, an oddity of sorts for a Gujarati Brahmin. There is a very small possibility that his Guj-Brahmin heritage is derived from a specific community with origins in Maharashtra/Southern India. Brahmins of South India showcase different autosomal profiles for two very specific reasons:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Be3PCvzf-BYC&pg=PA390&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=Be3PCvzf-BYC&pg=PA232&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

^They (Tamil, Karnataka Brahmins, etc..) took local (non-Brahmin) wives and also because local communities there were elevated to Brahmin status. That was never the case in Gujarat since there was no shortage of Brahmin females, as in the South. There are, however, cases of communities and members thereof in Gujarat whom impersonate or are more likely, simply confused of their Caste origins which is a more likely scenario in this particular case. For instance, not all Desais are Brahmins.

Re: Marathi Brahmins... half the Brahmin population in Maharashtra are Desatha and they are related to Kolis (Tribals):
https://books.google.com/books?id=2u88AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA98&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=YyA8BQAAQBAJ&pg=PT89&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false

Lastly, Pushkarna Brahmins are 'Panch Dravida' Brahmins.

ashwinb
05-10-2015, 03:19 AM
I haven't seen any guj brahmin results so far, so cant say. Although the map/fig I got from david shows my sample around several profiles marked as "Gujarati_2" or "gujarati+2.

ashwinb
05-10-2015, 03:20 AM
Kolis..aren't they supposed to be coastal people?

ashwinb
05-10-2015, 03:57 AM
I am modh brahmin btw, I dont know much about their history/origins.

Slayer
05-10-2015, 07:15 AM
I haven't seen any guj brahmin results so far, so cant say. Although the map/fig I got from david shows my sample around several profiles marked as "Gujarati_2" or "gujarati+2.

Modh means that your father is from Modhera gam. And those Gujarati samples are most likely from various different Castes and communities. Brahmins, Patels, Luhana types, maybe Rajputs and even Dalits. We can say that there are Brahmins among them because some of those samples have elevated NE Euro in the range of 10% - 16%. (All Brahmin samples, that are not from the South, have thus far shown NE Euro 10% or more).


Kolis..aren't they supposed to be coastal people?

Kolis are Tribals. Many sources state Desatha Brahmins are closer to Kolis, than they are to other Brahmins. Anyway, you are only half Gujarati and your other half is Marathi. So I'm not sure what you are expecting here...

ashwinb
05-10-2015, 01:19 PM
Not expecting anything!
I thought the sample was largely patels, nevertheless, we aren't sure how people mixed in earlier times,and when were these communities formed and when did they become endogamous.

Slayer
05-10-2015, 05:28 PM
Not expecting anything!
I thought the sample was largely patels, nevertheless, we aren't sure how people mixed in earlier times,and when were these communities formed and when did they become endogamous.

The Gujarati_a samples on HAP are Patels of Kunbi stock/origin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadava_Patidar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunbi

BMG
05-10-2015, 05:46 PM
The Gujarati_a samples on HAP are Patels of Kunbi stock/origin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadava_Patidar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunbi
How come you know that ?
The background of GIH samples of hapmap/1000 genomes is not revealed by them

ashwinb
05-10-2015, 07:30 PM
The Gujarati_a samples on HAP are Patels of Kunbi stock/origin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadava_Patidar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunbi
I do know about patels! This is what I came to know from Davidski about the samples,and how they appear on the eurogenes map:
They're from the HapMap project.There are three or four distinct sub-populations within this Gujarati sample, depending on how one chooses to divide them. But they basically range from the least South Asian, marked as Gujarati1, and comparable to most Pakistanis, to most South Asian.
I dont think we know anything more than than that.

Slayer
05-10-2015, 08:12 PM
How come you know that ?
The background of GIH samples of hapmap/1000 genomes is not revealed by them

There are known "Patel" samples on HAP and their component profile is exact same as that of Gujarati_a's. 40% Baloch and 55% South Indian. No other Gujarati samples have shown such admixture pattern.

The background of GIH donors is not revealed by them because they themselves don't know it. I had inquired a couple of years back.

tamilgangster
05-11-2015, 01:22 AM
The Gujarati_a samples on HAP are Patels of Kunbi stock/origin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadava_Patidar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kunbi

That explains why the Patel scored such high south Indian at around 55%, was because they are of kunbi stock. Most patels I know are light skinned and have sharp features, Id estimate them to score 40% south indian max

parasar
05-11-2015, 04:38 PM
There are known "Patel" samples on HAP and their component profile is exact same as that of Gujarati_a's. 40% Baloch and 55% South Indian. No other Gujarati samples have shown such admixture pattern.

The background of GIH donors is not revealed by them because they themselves don't know it. I had inquired a couple of years back.

If they refers to donors - really surprising if true. How did you figure that out?

Sapporo
05-11-2015, 05:09 PM
If they refers to donors - really surprising if true. How did you figure that out?

That's improbable. It's likely the geneticists who sampled them who don't know as they never inquired about it (presuming what he confirmed is true).

Slayer
05-12-2015, 02:51 AM
That explains why the Patel scored such high south Indian at around 55%, was because they are of kunbi stock. Most patels I know are light skinned and have sharp features, Id estimate them to score 40% south indian max

There are several communities of Patels, professing varying Caste/Class affiliations and origins. And yes, they are diverse in looks.

The GIH, however, largely carry the marker for light skin:

http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654

tamilgangster
05-12-2015, 10:33 AM
There are several communities of Patels, professing varying Caste/Class affiliations and origins. And yes, they are diverse in looks.

The GIH, however, largely carry the marker for light skin:

http://snpedia.com/index.php/Rs1426654

Most of the rich Patels who live in america are different from Kunbis who claim the patel title. Patels are considered vaishyas but Kunbis are sudras

parasar
05-12-2015, 02:48 PM
Most of the rich Patels who live in america are different from Kunbis who claim the patel title. Patels are considered vaishyas but Kunbis are sudras

Patel is a title.

There are Parsis who are Patels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorab_Patel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viraf_Patel
https://www.mskcc.org/research-areas/labs/members/dinshaw-patel

ashwinb
05-12-2015, 03:49 PM
Most of the rich Patels who live in america are different from Kunbis who claim the patel title. Patels are considered vaishyas but Kunbis are sudras

That's only a guess!

ashwinb
05-12-2015, 03:50 PM
Patel is a title.

There are Parsis who are Patels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorab_Patel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viraf_Patel
https://www.mskcc.org/research-areas/labs/members/dinshaw-patel

Ofcourse, but when a person says he's a Patel, he is very less likely to be a parsi. Plus patel isnt a tremendously common parsi surname, though muslims do use it often.

Sapporo
05-12-2015, 06:38 PM
Most of the rich Patels who live in america are different from Kunbis who claim the patel title. Patels are considered vaishyas but Kunbis are sudras

I don't how many Patels you have seen but the ones here in California (mostly middle to upper class) don't look especially light or sharp featured. Maybe they are all from certain Patel groups though. Honestly, not sure. Most Patels I've see here are in tech/finance or own/operate stereotypical South Asian businesses such as convenience stores, gas stations or hotels.

parasar
05-12-2015, 07:30 PM
Ofcourse, but when a person says he's a Patel, he is very less likely to be a parsi. Plus patel isnt a tremendously common parsi surname, though muslims do use it often.

I agree.
My point was that Patel is not a caste, but a title.
It may have recently concentrated in some particular castes.

tamilgangster
05-12-2015, 07:32 PM
I don't how many Patels you have seen but the ones here in California (mostly middle to upper class) don't look especially light or sharp featured. Maybe they are all from certain Patel groups though. Honestly, not sure. Most Patels I've see here are in tech/finance or own/operate stereotypical South Asian businesses such as convenience stores, gas stations or hotels.

I've known many patels, and they all are Gracie-indid indobrachid intermediates, Melanid and weddid features are minute. They are not exceptionally light skinned or sharp featured, when compared to jatts and Brahmins. But they are not that dark or flat featured to the extent that that would warrant a South Indian score of 55 percent on Harappa DNA. I would expect them to be like 40% south indian

Sapporo
05-12-2015, 08:07 PM
I've known many patels, and they all are Gracie-indid indobrachid intermediates, Melanid and weddid features are minute. They are not exceptionally light skinned or sharp featured, when compared to jatts and Brahmins. But they are not that dark or flat featured to the extent that that would warrant a South Indian score of 55 percent on Harappa DNA. I would expect them to be like 40% south indian

I rather not get in the realm of associating admixture results directly to phenotype. Not on a proper genetics forum like this. South Indian Brahmins, for example, mostly score in the 46-51% range for South Indian but using that outdated taxonomy, they have little Indo-Melanid or Weddid influence. Just because someone scores 55% South Indian does not necessarily mean they are going to look like Paniyas or tribal groups. On the other end, there are are most definitely Northwest South Asians who might only score 26-30% South Indian but may not be especially light or sharp featured.

ashwinb
05-13-2015, 05:41 PM
I've known many patels, and they all are Gracie-indid indobrachid intermediates, Melanid and weddid features are minute. They are not exceptionally light skinned or sharp featured, when compared to jatts and Brahmins. But they are not that dark or flat featured to the extent that that would warrant a South Indian score of 55 percent on Harappa DNA. I would expect them to be like 40% south indian

No,just no! Agree with saporo. Please dont make such claims without having a well done experiment. And I thought we were well over with the phenotype 1920's kind of terminology. And yes we are deviating from my thread as well.

Slayer
05-14-2015, 04:06 AM
Most of the rich Patels who live in america are different from Kunbis who claim the patel title. Patels are considered vaishyas but Kunbis are sudras

There is a system of hierarchy among the Patels, a "Caste System" of sorts if you will. The Kunbi Patels occupy the lowest stratum in that hierarchy:
http://i.imgur.com/hlTEW4w.png
https://books.google.com/books?id=r_nxcSS1TfUC&pg=PA26&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://i.imgur.com/ZZJdoJt.png
https://books.google.com/books?id=Be3PCvzf-BYC&pg=PA257&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false


Patel is a title.

There are Parsis who are Patels.

Shernaz Patel is another one. However, a Patel does need to be a Parsi to have a certain phenotype. Case in point, U.K. Politician Priti Patel:
http://www.sunnation.co.uk/s3/sunnation-prod/uploads/2015/04/patel.jpg

And U.S. actor, Paras Patel:
https://vimeo.com/95705603

You see, the 'Patel' identity of the Kunbis is a recent one. "Patidars" in-fact, have existed in Gujarat long before the Kunbis arrived to adopt that title. The community of Patels I am referring to, practices endogamy as-well as looks the part. If they have preserved their ancestry, then their autosomal component profile, in theory, should be analogous to Luhanas, Bhatias, Thakkars and the Brahmin like samples among Gujarati_b's.



No,just no! Agree with saporo. Please dont make such claims without having a well done experiment. And I thought we were well over with the phenotype 1920's kind of terminology. And yes we are deviating from my thread as well.

You know ashwin, you do have that famed Marathi temper in you. Like the Politician Raj Thackerey, who is seemingly agitated in all his interviews. OTOH, I'm a Gujarati and we tend to be a little more laid back I suppose. Anyway, tamilgangster was just trying to help in his own way. He had no ill intent.

But yes, all this Patel and phenotype discussions are off-topic. The thread concluded with post # 36 anyhow. So perhaps we can have a moderator transfer the posts onto a new thread to continue discussion on the Patels?

tamilgangster
05-14-2015, 05:37 AM
There is a system of hierarchy among the Patels, a "Caste System" of sorts if you will. The Kunbi Patels occupy the lowest stratum in that hierarchy:
http://i.imgur.com/hlTEW4w.png
https://books.google.com/books?id=r_nxcSS1TfUC&pg=PA26&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://i.imgur.com/ZZJdoJt.png
https://books.google.com/books?id=Be3PCvzf-BYC&pg=PA257&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false



Shernaz Patel is another one. However, a Patel does need to be a Parsi to have a certain phenotype. Case in point, U.K. Politician Priti Patel:
http://www.sunnation.co.uk/s3/sunnation-prod/uploads/2015/04/patel.jpg

And U.S. actor, Paras Patel:
https://vimeo.com/95705603

You see, the 'Patel' identity of the Kunbis is a recent one. "Patidars" in-fact, have existed in Gujarat long before the Kunbis arrived to adopt that title. The community of Patels I am referring to, practices endogamy as-well as looks the part. If they have preserved their ancestry, then their autosomal component profile, in theory, should be analogous to Luhanas, Bhatias, Thakkars and the Brahmin like samples among Gujarati_b's.




You know ashwin, you do have that famed Marathi temper in you. Like the Politician Raj Thackerey, who is seemingly agitated in all his interviews. OTOH, I'm a Gujarati and we tend to be a little more laid back I suppose. Anyway, tamilgangster was just trying to help in his own way. He had no ill intent.

But yes, all this Patel and phenotype discussions are off-topic. The thread concluded with post # 36 anyhow. So perhaps we can have a moderator transfer the posts onto a new thread to continue discussion on the Patels?

This makes perfect sense. Most of the rich patels in the US are of patidar stock, who are very industrious and buisiness minded community and not stereotypically violent. Kunbis more of a maharastrian caste, than gujurati. Also kunbis have been involved in many riots and have been a major group for recruiting among soldiers, none of which are traits associated with patels

ashwinb
05-14-2015, 01:54 PM
You know ashwin, you do have that famed Marathi temper in you. Like the Politician Raj Thackerey, who is seemingly agitated in all his interviews. OTOH, I'm a Gujarati and we tend to be a little more laid back I suppose. Anyway, tamilgangster was just trying to help in his own way. He had no ill intent.

But yes, all this Patel and phenotype discussions are off-topic. The thread concluded with post # 36 anyhow. So perhaps we can have a moderator transfer the posts onto a new thread to continue discussion on the Patels?

Haha..it's just that I think we should be done with phenotype kind of discussion,I am not saying anyone's got ill intent. You could see those kind of threads in 2010, I am surprised when I see people still discussing the same today.
I would expect people to come up with a good statistical study by taking atleast a 1000 samples,, if they want to correlate genotype and phenotype. Saying "all the people i know look like that" is simply not done.

ashwinb
05-14-2015, 02:07 PM
Anyway if you get to more about any gujarati brahmin samples, do post here.

ashwinb
05-17-2015, 04:10 AM
MDLP k23b:

# Population Percent
1 South_Indian 51.28
2 South_Central_Asian 31.15
3 Caucasian 6.94
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 3.11
5 Ancestral_Altaic 2.46
6 Australoid 1.45


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 TN_Brahmin @ 2.864348
2 Brahmin_Tamil @ 4.267072
3 GujaratiC_GIH @ 4.600487
4 Vaish @ 5.017207
5 Brahmins_UP @ 5.347243
6 Meghawal @ 5.354562
7 Kshatriya @ 6.107587
8 Punjabi_Lahore_PJL @ 6.207436
9 Marathi @ 6.303308
10 Telugu_Kannada @ 6.459754
11 Bengali @ 7.109331
12 Hindi @ 7.332282
13 GujaratiB_GIH @ 7.765590
14 Dharkar @ 8.679707
15 Lambadi @ 8.919852
16 GujaratiD_GIH @ 9.032864
17 Srivastava @ 9.179632
18 Tiwari @ 9.911147
19 Kanjar @ 10.407434
20 Velamas @ 11.541077

So any guesses on what gujaratiC and gujD constitute? And any idea about the "vaish" or "hindi" sample, which area are they from? And the "marathi" sample, which community might they belong to?

aka786
06-01-2016, 03:27 AM
I saw your report. It also says 4.8 % east african. All north indians have africans in them? Please correct me if I am wrong?

coolguy
06-27-2018, 10:48 PM
I've known many patels, and they all are Gracie-indid indobrachid intermediates, Melanid and weddid features are minute. They are not exceptionally light skinned or sharp featured, when compared to jatts and Brahmins. But they are not that dark or flat featured to the extent that that would warrant a South Indian score of 55 percent on Harappa DNA. I would expect them to be like 40% south indian

I agree with this part of your observations about their phenotype. And it's true for most other Gujaratis too. But when you compared them with other ethnic groups and said they're fairer, I don't agree with that. All South Asian ethnicities are mixed race ANI-ASI hybrids and hence exhibit a variety of phenotypes. So it depends on the individual and not their social group for who's more "light skinned or sharp featured".

Besides HarappaWorld, if you look at West vs East Eurasian admixture then Gujaratis are genetically pred. West Eurasian, and obviously this also translates in looks.
http://i67.tinypic.com/15duww6.jpg
Source: bioRvix (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2013/12/23/001552)

Patels are a diverse group living throughout Gujarat, and Razib Khan (http://www.unz.com/gnxp/south-asians-are-not-descended-from-four-populations/) and some others have suggested that they were the main group in the GIH Houston Gujarati samples (which are the Gujarati samples in the admixture above). So I think they could be anything from Gujarati1 to Gujarati4 on this admixture.

By the way, not all Patels are Gujaratis, many are from other parts of India.


No,just no! Agree with saporo. Please dont make such claims without having a well done experiment. And I thought we were well over with the phenotype 1920's kind of terminology. And yes we are deviating from my thread as well.

There actually was a well-done experiment which showed that Gujaratis phenotype is predominantly West Eurasian. I posted it on this recent thread (http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=49967) I made about Gujaratis. I'm posting it here as well.
http://i66.tinypic.com/2rw8hp0.jpg

Many posts inquired about Gujarati Patels looks on this thread, so here's some videos showing their average phenotype. The first video shows Kadwa Patels from east-central Gujarat and the second video shows Leuva Patels from western Gujarat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_31spdJHKKA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7UpglED71c
There's even some Europeans in these videos, they don't stick out completely. Some dark-haired Europeans can pass as atypical Gujaratis.


I saw your report. It also says 4.8 % east african. All north indians have africans in them? Please correct me if I am wrong?

You are wrong. As you can see on the admixture above, many South Asians (such as Gujaratis) don't have any Sub-Saharan African admixture. Only some people mixed with Siddis have SSA and even they have only 1%. Ashwinb is scoring East African because of the East Africans' affinity to West Eurasians, not the other way round. And not every South Asian scores East African, only some people do.

Diamond
07-19-2018, 04:38 AM
There is another thread in this forum that is doing the rounds about the South Asian Genome Project. I would post a link but I am not allowed to since I am new to this forum. But it is from an ancestry genetic testing company called Xcode Life. People with 23andMe results are getting a free break up of their ancestry if they are South Asian. Anyone tried this yet?