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Scarlet Ibis
04-01-2015, 06:56 PM
Do you have an ancestor in your lineage who was granted a coat of arms? Do you display them?

There are purists who say that these coats of arms are only granted to individuals, and that people who tout them as ancestral "family crests" are wrong. What do you think?

MikeWhalen
04-01-2015, 08:51 PM
I say Thppppttt to the purists!

My ancestors were poor farmers, loggers and fishermen, many of which had their lands stolen by some rich foreign jerk with a sword, who in turn, took the money he stole from me and mine and gave it to a bigger thief with a bigger sword and this went on for a while until he was eventually rewarded by the top jerk with the very biggest sword with a newly made up and pretend tittle and name and crest, that only he could use, on pain of torture and execution!

fortunately, I live in Canada and I am free to spend a few bucks creating a most excellent, relevant and fun Family Crest that I can think of and plaster it on beer steins, coffee mugs, key chains and internet avatars, as I see fit.

I'm pretty sure I dont have to post my family crest as you just have to check out the top left of my post for it

:)

Mike

Scarlet Ibis
04-01-2015, 09:27 PM
fortunately, I live in Canada and I am free to spend a few bucks creating a most excellent, relevant and fun Family Crest that I can think of and plaster it on beer steins, coffee mugs, key chains and internet avatars, as I see fit.


My dad also had a crest embroidered on a patch. We don't wear the patch, or display it; it's more of a keepsake. But get this.... I found out many years later, thanks to transatlantic Y-DNA testing, that we are NOT descended from the same line as the guy with our surname who was granted the coat of arms. :embarrassed:

The same double-headed eagle appears on the description of other coats of arms that were granted to unrelated people with the same surname from England, however, so they might have, at the very least, had contact with each other.

Dave-V
04-01-2015, 09:47 PM
The purists are technically correct. Coats of arms were initially adopted by medieval nobles and eventually passed on to their first sons, while junior sons could display variations. In some centuries men who inherited a coat of arms would tweak them to make them individual to themselves, too. So you might get a whole slew of slightly-different-but-related coats of arms that were identified with that family line, but they were associated with THAT family, not the surname. Other nobles with the same surname could have completely different coats of arms, while other people with the same surname might have no coat of arms.

In "armigerous" countries (i.e., countries that recognize the right to bear coats of arms), by law people cannot assume a coat of arms that don't belong to them, and that's what the purists are reminding everybody, usually fairly tediously.

But I too say Thppppttt to the purists. Living in a country that doesn't legally recognize formal heraldry, first of all it is neither illegal nor immoral for me to claim any coat of arms I want. But I'd look pretty silly carving it in stone over my garage and making the church I attend put it up in stained glass in their windows. What the purists fail to understand is that people aren't generally "claiming" a coat of arms as their personal birthright, they're just displaying a nice picture that was associated with a family of their same surname. Just because I might hang a nice picture of a ship doesn't mean I'm claiming to be a sailor, or claiming to own that particular ship, either.

I've been interested enough in the history of my surname to research the 5-6 coats of arms that were associated with different families who carried the surname, and the many more coats of arms associated with the family names that are either known or believed to be the different origins of my surname. It's all a fascinating look at history. But I don't know for sure that any of them were my personal male ancestors.

miiser
04-01-2015, 09:58 PM
I lean toward the purist side. My larger concern, however, is that heraldry references are rife with misinformation. The whole field is primarily driven by profiteering. The sellers want to ensure that there's a coat of arms for every surname to maximize their sales, and consequently there are a large number of incorrect heraldry assignments, and incorrect relationships implied between similar but unrelated surnames and lineages. The misinformation from these sources gets propagated endlessly, copied from one heraldry reference to another or from one website to another, and the information is accepted on faith by many genealogists who know no better.

Dave-V
04-01-2015, 10:13 PM
...My larger concern, however, is that heraldry references are rife with misinformation. The whole field is primarily driven by profiteering. The sellers want to ensure that there's a coat of arms for every surname to maximize their sales, and consequently there are a large number of incorrect heraldry assignments, and incorrect relationships implied between similar but unrelated surnames and lineages. The misinformation from these sources get propagated endlessly, copied from one heraldry reference to another or from one website to another, and the information is accepted on faith by many genealogists who know no better.

I agree with you about what the purists sniffingly refer to as the "bucket shops". The whole "buy your coat of arms on a mousepad" industry tends to read three or four heraldry sources and then use those coats of arms for every last name that remotely sounds or looks like the one family's name who carried those arms.

That said, the armorials (especially the British/Irish ones) don't do genealogists any favors, either. People who do find their way to the official heraldry references can come away with 400+ years of a family's history but usually fail to realize that not only is that family probably not theirs, but the documented history was a bunch of family legends that didn't get any more proven with age.

I can't tell you the number of people with my surname who honestly hold up their ancestry back to Balthazar (yes, the Magi King) because it says so in Burke's Peerage.

miiser
04-01-2015, 10:22 PM
I agree with you about what the purists sniffingly refer to as the "bucket shops". The whole "buy your coat of arms on a mousepad" industry tends to read three or four heraldry sources and then use those coats of arms for every last name that remotely sounds or looks like the one family's name who carried those arms.

That said, the armorials (especially the British/Irish ones) don't do genealogists any favors, either. People who do find their way to the official heraldry references can come away with 400+ years of a family's history but usually fail to realize that not only is that family probably not theirs, but the documented history was a bunch of family legends that didn't get any more proven with age.

I can't tell you the number of people with my surname who honestly hold up their ancestry back to Balthazar (yes, the Magi King) because it says so in Burke's Peerage.

I fully agree with you. I categorize the armorials into the same group as the modern "bucket shops". The history of these publications shows that they were really no different than the modern bucket shops in their business models. Their priority was not to provide reliable genealogy information, but to sell books by preying on the ego of the consumer.

There is some good information in these sources, but also a large amount of misinformation.

The "visitations" are somewhat better as reliable sources. But even the government officials responsible for approving and granting heraldry were subject to bribery and corruption. So one cannot even always trust the official records to establish a relationship between different families.

seferhabahir
04-01-2015, 11:29 PM
One of my fellow Z251>S11556>S9294 haplogroup members is Captain & Armiger of Clan MacKall (Caithness). He usually signs off on his posts and emails with that description, and is obviously allowed to own his crest. See the link below for a picture of the Clan MacKall crest and clan history. The clan motto is Fidelis usque ad mortem "Faithful even unto death". We apparently parted company ancestry-wise several thousand years ago. His ancestors went north and mine likely went south from Central Europe.

http://www.tartanfootprint.com/mccall/info/

Clinton P
04-01-2015, 11:50 PM
Here's what the College of Arms has to say on the matter....

"Armorial bearings are hereditary. They can be borne and used by all the descendants in the legitimate male line of the person to whom they were originally granted or confirmed. To establish a right to arms by inheritance it is necessary to prove a descent from an ancestor who is already recorded as entitled to arms in the registers of the College of Arms."

Clinton P

miiser
04-02-2015, 12:10 AM
It is also worth noting that the term "crest" properly refers to just one element of heraldry - the elaborate decoration above the shield and helmet. The original practical coat of arms on a shield would not have included the crest. The crest is a later elaboration used in architectural decoration and such.

Alpine Hominin
04-02-2015, 12:18 AM
Personally I am instantly more suspicious of genealogy information if a crest with a reference to a surname is on the site giving the information. I don't think people should use crests they're not entitled to because it takes away from the significance for people that legitimately have claim to a family crest. I don't have claim to one, even though a quick Google search gives me 3 for my surname.

If someone were to institute Haplogroup based heraldry (Making a crest for people of each haplogroup, maybe some of the larger sub-groups) I'd be into the idea, but as it stands I'm going to have to side with the purists here.

MitchellSince1893
04-02-2015, 02:54 AM
Ok this can be a touchy subject with many points of view depending on where you are sitting.

From the http://www.college-of-arms.gov.uk/resources/faqs

I am American, can I have a coat of arms?
A. US Citizens who can show a descent from a subject of the British Crown, including from subjects of the Crown overseas in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and elsewhere during the period of British rule, such as India, South Africa and Ireland, can seek a grant of Honorary Arms from the Kings of Arms here. American institutions can petition for a devisal of arms, which is very similar in all but a technical sense.

To my knowledge I don't qualify for the above, (except that the Lord Lyon's office in Scotland does have unique treatment of Bastardy, also I do have a few ancestors that bore arms on some of my non paternal lines), but as an American citizen I worked with the non profit American College of Heraldry back in 2002 to design a family coat of arms and crest. A quote about this organization http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/

"There isn't any OFFICIAL United States Government agency for registering arms in the United States. Who do you people think you are?"
You cannot imagine the frequency with which this question arises, largely from individuals who have not spent the time to learn exactly what The American College of Heraldry does. We are not now, nor ever claimed to be, a GRANTING authority for arms. The College merely serves as a repository for those wishing to REGISTER their arms with an organization dedicated to preserving that heritage. Further, our goal is to aid those who wish to establish their own heraldic tradition create and register new arms. We have also assisted individuals in both creating new arms as well as directing individuals to other international heraldic entities, such as the Court of Lord Lyon, The College of Arms, The Cronista Rey de Armas of the Kingdom of Spain, and the Collegium Heraldicum Russiae to name a few.
The American College of Heraldry is, in simplest terms, a body created to help individuals create and register arms for their own use. Such a registration would not be considered “official” in any other country, simply because it is not a grant of arms from a sovereign agency or government office. Arms registered with our organization are what can be called “assumed” arms, and would be for the individual’s own use. The registration would be published in our quarterly newsletter and our Heraldic Register of America. Most Americans that use our services do so because they wish to create armorial bearings for themselves and their descendants, for their own personal use and satisfaction. If you wished to pursue a grant of arms through a country such as England, Ireland, Scotland, or Spain, you would begin by contacting the heraldic authority in one of those countries and following their procedures. We would be happy to assist in the design process of such a procedure, assuming that, once you received a grant of arms from one of the countries in question, you would then register them with the College. However, registering arms with our organization does not guarantee, or for that matter influence, any other international heraldic authorities will grant arms of such a design.

I spent a few years (1998-2002 time frame) coming up with a design and worked with the American College of Heraldry president and artist to finalize the design. The arms were registered on behalf of my father with the American College of Heraldry in December 2002.

Since I don't know my paternal line prior to my father's paternal grandfather, I attempted to devise a design that would work regardless of my paternal ancestry and told a family story going back 8 generations on the Mitchell line. Every little detail of the image below has a family story behind it. The only places it is currently displayed is in my home and my father's home.

4230

miiser
04-02-2015, 03:12 AM
Ok this can be a touchy subject with many points of view depending on where you are sitting.
. . .
To my knowledge I don't qualify for the above but as an American citizen I worked with the non profit American College of Heraldry back in 2002 to design a family coat of arms and crest. A quote about this organization http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/
. . .
I spent a few years (1998-2002 time frame) coming up with a design and worked with the American College of Heraldry president and artist to finalize the design. The arms are registered on behalf of my father with the American College of Heraldry in December 2002.
4230

To be sure, heraldry has been used in different ways in different time periods and in different nations. The modern usage generally goes not follow the original rules, but this is nothing particularly new. It's already been quite a few centuries since heraldry was strictly used for identification in battle, and rewarded by kings as a recognition of valor in combat. In some nations, a coat of arms can now be registered without limitation, in the same way that a trademark or a business name can. I suppose I have no problem with someone creating their own heraldry just for fun. Although, personally, I wouldn't do it, as I do feel that it cheapens the significance.

I think the most important thing is for genealogists to recognize what heraldry is and what it is not. What it is NOT, generally, is a piece of evidence that ties all members of a particular surname back to a single individual from the year 1066. But it is an interesting piece of graphic art that can give people a feeling of identity. In limited cases, it is an inherited legacy relevant to a specific lineage's personal history.

MitchellSince1893
04-02-2015, 03:27 AM
Mine wasn't done "just for fun". But like you I don't have a problem with those that create arms for the pure enjoyment of Heraldry.

It was to tell a family story through the art of Heraldry.

Back in the 1990s I visited with both the Lord Lyon's office in Edinburgh and the College of Arms in London. As my Mitchell line is Scottish (via the paternal grandfather's mother), and Bastardy is treated differently in Scotland compared to England (paternal grandfather born illegitimate); I considered going this route.


The situation in Scotland as regards bastardy is unlike the situation in England in two ways. The first is that subsequent marriage of the parents will legitimate a child so long as the parents were free to marry at the time of that child's birth. The most famous example of this is the "MacDonald Peerage Case" where the Irish Barony of MacDonald was inherited by the descendents of the first child son after the marriage of 3rd Lord MacDonald and the Scots Baronetcy passed to the descendents of the eldest son (born previous to the marriage). The second is that an illegitimate child in Scotland is not "filius nullius " but is considered a full member of the family or clan. This means that all an illegitimate child (male or female) needs to do is to apply for a re-matriculation of arms suitably differenced to reflect his or her status. This principle would also apply (though an opinion has not been sought from Lyon court for this) to children where the father is unknown since in such a situation the child would become part of the mother's family or clan and application could be made for suitably differenced arms of that family.

It is even possible for illegitimate children to inherit undifferenced arms if they are the "assignees" of the armiger. This comes from the old Celtic inheritance principle of there being a group of potential heirs (usually all those sharing a particular great-grandparent) from whom the heir could be chosen. To quote Sir Iain Moncreiffe:

At a meeting of the Standing Council of Scottish Chiefs,..., the present author pointed out that illegitimacy did not necessarily in Scotland exclude a son from succession even to a chiefship, if covered by a parental nomination accepted by the Crown - and that this applied in fact to a fellow chief present. After the meeting two other chiefs (neither of them the one I had in mind) came up to me separately and protested 'I've never been called a bastard in public before'.

This may seem to have everything to do with the inheritance of clan chiefdoms rather than arms, but the two are intimately linked as a clan chief is the possessor of the undifferenced arms of the clan.

In general, bastard arms in Scotland are differenced with a bordure compony, but this is not always the case, especially with ancient coats of arms and royal bastards and it is possible to find batons sinister (Dempster of Careston - bastards of Malcolm Canmore) or no obvious bastardy difference at all (Stewart, Earl of Mar - bastards of the Wolf of Badenoch).

So while the Lord Lyon's office was willing to work with me, I eventually decided to go the American College of Heraldry route as my focus wasn't to connect back to ancestor who had the right to bear arms in Scotland.

Táltos
04-02-2015, 03:43 AM
My dad also had a crest embroidered on a patch. We don't wear the patch, or display it; it's more of a keepsake. But get this.... I found out many years later, thanks to transatlantic Y-DNA testing, that we are NOT descended from the same guy with our surname who was granted the coat of arms. :embarrassed:

The same double-headed eagle appears on the description of other coats of arms that were granted to unrelated people with the same surname from England, however, so they might have, at the very least, had contact with each other.

Then you have this confusing situation with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in regard to family crests.

The most striking peculiarity of the system is that a coat of arms does not belong to a single family. A number of unrelated families (sometimes hundreds of them), usually with a number of different family names, may use the same, undifferenced coat of arms, and each coat of arms has its own name. The total number of coats of arms in this system was relatively low – ca. 200 in the late Middle Ages. The same can be also seen in Western Europe, when families of different surnames but sharing clan origin would use similar coats-of-arms, the fleur-de-lis of the many Capetian families being perhaps the best known example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_heraldry
Check out the Ślepowron coat of arms with 993 family names under it! Even my own maiden name. :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Alepowron_coat_of_arms

My husband is Irish, and of course has a coat of arms. http://www.olearyfarms.com/oleary.htm
I can only guess he belongs to this clan as other men of the same surname share his haplogroup, and one is even from the same village as his family. Will have to upgrade his test in the future to see were that goes. Unfortunately for now other men who share his surname also have not tested as extensively either.

miiser
04-02-2015, 03:50 AM
Mine wasn't done "just for fun". It was to tell a family story through the art of Heraldry.

I didn't intend "just for fun" as a slight. I just meant that it wasn't granted to you and your descendants by a king, but created by yourself simply because you wanted to have your own heraldry. In other words, it's no longer used as a recognition of accomplishments by an established authority and limited to an elite class, as it once was, nor is it viewed by others as a status symbol, as it once was.


. . . ancestor who had the right to bare arms in Scotland . . .

In some past eras, that would have been just plain indecent and demeaning! Although nowadays I suppose bare arms are pretty passe. ;)

MitchellSince1893
04-02-2015, 04:10 AM
Personally I am instantly more suspicious of genealogy information if a crest with a reference to a surname is on the site giving the information. I don't think people should use crests they're not entitled to because it takes away from the significance for people that legitimately have claim to a family crest. I don't have claim to one, even though a quick Google search gives me 3 for my surname.

If someone were to institute Haplogroup based heraldry (Making a crest for people of each haplogroup, maybe some of the larger sub-groups) I'd be into the idea, but as it stands I'm going to have to side with the purists here.

On a somewhat related note, as a Heraldry buff, I've noted a pattern in U152 areas. Red and Gold are very prevalent in U152 areas North of the Alps. See attachment.

The reason for this is the Rhine River area was once ruled by Duchy of Lorraine which governed this territory going back to the division of Charlemagne's empire in the Kingdom of Lotharingia. But it's also common in the former Belgae areas of Britain (see the University of Winchester and Hampshire flags/Arms).

Red and Gold was also the Roman Empire colors...another U152 heavy area South of the Alps.

Sorry for the Heraldry Geekout but I couldn't contain myself :D

4231

MitchellSince1893
04-02-2015, 04:19 AM
I didn't intend "just for fun" as a slight. I just meant that it wasn't granted to you and your descendants by a king, but created by yourself simply because you wanted to have your own heraldry. In other words, it's no longer used as a recognition of accomplishments by an established authority and limited to an elite class, as it once was, nor is it viewed by others as a status symbol, as it once was.



In some past eras, that would have been just plain indecent and demeaning! Although nowadays I suppose bare arms are pretty passe. ;)
I wanted to "Thanks" your post but apparently this feature is no longer available? EDIT: Now the "Thanks" feature has returned...must have been a temporary glitch.

Damn those homonyms! I think I mixed up the 2nd amendment "right to bear arms" with the right to " naked/bare arms"...good grief I need to quite [sic] while I'm behind ;)

As to your "slight" let' us handle this in a gentlemanly manner...the way Aaron Burr and Alexander Hamilton would :D

Gray Fox
04-02-2015, 04:26 AM
My family coat of arms is what initially sparked my curiosity in genealogy. I personally choose not to display them. Not because I think it violates their proper use, its just not my style. I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at a family member who did though. As others have mentioned, they're more of a coversation piece in these modern times.

There's also no guarantee that I am even descended of the original bearer. Non paternal events happen everyday. All I know for sure is that I do indeed have a few Isaac cousins in the backwoods of Devonshire! DNA confirmed that and as Alpine hominin mentioned, a coat of arms based on haplo-group nomenclature/phylogeny would be more worth while.

MikeWhalen
04-02-2015, 12:01 PM
not to pick nits, but from my point of view, the fun of creating a family shield was because it was an exercise in honoring some specific events in my last 6 generations (the only known ones) of Y line ancestors

As the family genealogist, I discovered that the family history we had been told for our Y line was actually my paternal grandmothers y line history, and there was no living person in the family that had a clue where us Whalen's came from

As I found various gov. documents and internet 'cousins', each of which had a slice of the true story we never knew, I was able to stitch together a coherent story of:
-how a poor Irish catholic boy eventually became a coachman/horse groom for a wealthy English noble
-married the protestant foreman's daughter
-eloped to Canada on an open decked Whaling ship due to family disapproval
-carved not one, but 3 bush farms out of the Canadian wilderness with a core kinship group
-led an 800K wagon train across the wilds of the Ontario forests, losing 1 girl to an Indian raid
-had a large family of 13 kids who as adults, dispersed all over north america
-ended up owning 200 acres of successful farms and owning several of his own horses
-we have a contemporary account of how a black bear stalked him while he was looking after his 'beloved' potato's and my GGGrandfather spins around and kills the bear with 1 blow to the head from a heavy steel hoe
-dies suddenly in his 59th year, corrects and signs his will on the day he dies and has a large headstone in which the top half is a fine engraving of the Orange Lodge symbol
-had his 9th child and 5th son travel with his little family 500 miles north to a small lumber camp town in Northern Ontario, only to die a year later in a lumber mill accident and leave a 26 yr old widow with a 2 yr old boy (thankfully surrounded by her kin up there. which we did not know)
-had a grandchild come down with polio and survive but no longer being fit for the rough/tough life of a bush farmer or lumberman, got an apprenticeship as a watch maker and gold smith, and was excellent at it
-that grandchild becomes a very successful business man with 3 sons and the largest jewelry store in Northern Ontario for many years
-the middle son takes over the store and has 2 boys of his own, the younger one is the one typing this

so if you've hung in there with me, you can take a peek at my family crest and have some idea about several of its aspects

I had a ball designing it and it was worth every penny...which by the way, I spend more on taking my family out for a good dinner than it cost to have created for me

some of us, really do not give one tinkers damn about what some 'official' heraldry group does, thinks or says and it never crossed our mind that someone might think I'm trying to claim kinship to the lost Kings of the Munster Desai tribes of Ireland...

I'm not mad at anyone, but please guys, do be careful about some of the assumptions out there, my little crest is only about my little family

Thanks for listening
:)

Mike

Dave-V
04-02-2015, 02:36 PM
For me my interest in genealogy always included a strong interest in the origins of my surname. I don't have a strong attachment to this particular name but I was intrigued that surnames [in all their variations] are the only artifacts consciously handed down in continental Europe and the British Isles over the past thousand years [give or take]. Whether or not it always followed my Y-DNA, it's still a curiosity left to me by distant ancestors.

In that vein heraldry can be very useful in exploring the origins of your surname, if you can accept that you will probably end up with multiple origins and have to sift through a LOT of legends.

For example, Y-DNA has proven a connection from one haplogroup of our surname back to an armigerous (carriers of a coat of arms) Scottish family, and their own heraldry is one link that connects that family back to an Anglo-Norman English family who spawned a number of English and Scottish offshoots both of the same and different surnames who all differenced the original coat of arms to show their descent from the original Norman family. You have to be careful not to swallow it all as truth [and the jury's still out on the DNA], but at least it's a theory, and further DNA testing may help us understand which parts if any are true.

Maybe that's why I always found this funny, although the origins of charges in heraldry are rarely this obvious... :)

4232

vettor
04-02-2015, 07:01 PM
For me my interest in genealogy always included a strong interest in the origins of my surname. I don't have a strong attachment to this particular name but I was intrigued that surnames [in all their variations] are the only artifacts consciously handed down in continental Europe and the British Isles over the past thousand years [give or take]. Whether or not it always followed my Y-DNA, it's still a curiosity left to me by distant ancestors.

In that vein heraldry can be very useful in exploring the origins of your surname, if you can accept that you will probably end up with multiple origins and have to sift through a LOT of legends.

For example, Y-DNA has proven a connection from one haplogroup of our surname back to an armigerous (carriers of a coat of arms) Scottish family, and their own heraldry is one link that connects that family back to an Anglo-Norman English family who spawned a number of English and Scottish offshoots both of the same and different surnames who all differenced the original coat of arms to show their descent from the original Norman family. You have to be careful not to swallow it all as truth [and the jury's still out on the DNA], but at least it's a theory, and further DNA testing may help us understand which parts if any are true.

Maybe that's why I always found this funny, although the origins of charges in heraldry are rarely this obvious... :)

4232


I tend to agree with all you say, but in my situation it was a migration of one or some of my ancestors to the British isles and a complete change of surname, but with a retention of the meaning of the old surname into the new surname........as an example
My gggrandmother surname was Colle, this means Hill in Italian, I have found 2nd and 3rd cousins ( 4 families with surname of Hill that I relate to ) ............can this be fully establish?!, I do not know, ...but maybe the only way is via birth, death and marriage registrations..............genetics did the "scouting" at least.

Also surnames can have extensions within the surname representing an area on the globe, example, in North-East Italy they have the following "endings" in the surname.......LIN, ATO, OTTO, GHER and IGO and some others .....if you are from there and have this ending, you can chop/remove this "extension" out and are left with a name,.....then you can try to continue the journey of your surname.........like me, I have found one family that goes back to the 12th century...................but, one can not always be100%

So, surnames are fun to follow, but a lot of work

Dave-V
04-03-2015, 05:32 PM
If someone were to institute Haplogroup based heraldry (Making a crest for people of each haplogroup, maybe some of the larger sub-groups) I'd be into the idea...

The advantages of long plane rides... as long as we're "geeking out" on heraldry, I took the R1b-L21 symbol I played with a couple of years ago (on yet another long plane ride) and threw it on a shield just for fun.

My blazon is rusty but I believe this would be described as "Vert, a Norse Algiz Or within a Neolithic triskele of the second within a Celtic circle of the second on an annulet of the first bordured of the second", although there might be a shorter way to describe it.

The cultures associated with L21 have been updated since a couple of years ago, of course, so the symbol would have to be tweaked.

4247

vettor
04-03-2015, 05:41 PM
The advantages of long plane rides... as long as we're "geeking out" on heraldry, I took the R1b-L21 symbol I played with a couple of years ago (on yet another long plane ride) and threw it on a shield just for fun.

My blazon is rusty but I believe this would be described as "Vert, a Norse Algiz Or within a Neolithic triskele of the second within a Celtic circle of the second on an annulet of the first bordured of the second", although there might be a shorter way to describe it.

The cultures associated with L21 have been updated since a couple of years ago, of course, so the symbol would have to be tweaked.

4247

Since you seem to know about heraldry, then what does Silver Guttees mean ...........as these are on my families COA ...........I have 10 of these

Dave-V
04-03-2015, 05:57 PM
Since you seem to know about heraldry, then what does Silver Guttees mean ...

"Guttees" or "Gouttys" are drops, from the French "gouttes". They could represent either drops or tears. A description of their use in heraldry is here: http://karlwilcox.com/parker/g/Gouttes.

Silver would of course be the color of the drops on the shield, although it might be called "argent" in the description.

vettor
04-03-2015, 06:13 PM
"Guttees" or "Gouttys" are drops, from the French "gouttes". They could represent either drops or tears. A description of their use in heraldry is here: http://karlwilcox.com/parker/g/Gouttes.

Silver would of course be the color of the drops on the shield, although it might be called "argent" in the description.

Thanks ...........I have a golden rampant lion on the top of these silver guttees, with one claw with red nails and the other 3 claws on the legs as golden nails.
Anyway , to hard for me to decifer

MitchellSince1893
04-03-2015, 10:03 PM
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My first attempt at an Italo-Celtic U152 blazon.

As U152's distribution has a Northwest to Southeast geographic orientation (i.e. from Britain to the Italian Peninsula), the upper left represents the northwestern, celtic aspects of U152 with a simple Celtic symbol. The lower right is the Italo/Roman aspects of U152 which is taken from a Roman shield design.

As I mentioned in a previous post, red and gold, (Gules and Or) are quite prevalent in the U152 areas of Europe.

MitchellSince1893
04-04-2015, 02:30 AM
Here is another version for U152 with an indented border which represents the Alps...the frontier between the Italo-Romans and Celts, and the area with the highest concentration of U152. The indented border could also represent the historic conflict between the two groups.

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