View Full Version : The probable position of Australian M347 lineage

04-03-2015, 06:22 AM
According to
"A recent bottleneck of Y chromosome diversity coincides with a global change in culture"
Monika Karmin et. al.


-C1 == K29


---C1b == K30

-----C1b1 == K281

-----C1b2 == B477

-------C1b2a == M38 <- old C2

-------C1b2b == M347 <- old C4

Now by and large C haplogroup has been mapped completely.
The tree also looks almost exactly the same as the one drawn by a Korean amateur independently.

It remains to be seen whether the Japanese C1a* is genuine.
I think it is possible; I have seen quite a few C*(xM217) in northen asia and some of them may turn out to be of this type.

04-03-2015, 04:48 PM
I went through the supp info for Karmin et al and Hallast et al.

Of the 27 SNPs listed as belonging to the C2'4 branch in Karmin et al (B477 and phylogenetic equivalents), 12 of them were found on the C1-to-C1c (226 to 227) branch in Hallast et al. (They are C6864203G, A6933080G, A14546318C, T14655853C, G14659512A, G17466445A, T17653223C, T17816488A, C18913123T, C19215759A, C23081529T, G23328508A.)

I guess this confirms that Australian C1c-M347 (now C1b2b) is indeed a sister to Australasian C1b2-M38 (now C1b2a). The Australian C1 branch is 129 SNPs long in Hallast et al, and then a further 17-19 SNPs to present (there were only two samples). However, since the studies had different coverages I'm not sure we can compare SNP counts across them and get meaningful time estimates. If we could then 12 SNPs in Hallast et al (by the fossil calibration) would be around 5000 years. The SNP count in Karmin et al, 40 SNPs down from C, agrees closely with that. So Australian C1 probably split from Australasian C1 roughly 45 000 years ago.

From higher branches, Karmin's C1'7 branch (= regular C1) has 2 SNPs, K29 and F3393, which agrees with other sources. On the K2'7 branch, however, there are 11 SNPs - K30, K31, K33, K35, K116, K50, F1171, F1370, M3987/CTS6773 (recurring?), C15150704T, and T21815765C. Of these K116 and K150 are listed under C1b in Y-Full and thus presumably are properly placed here. F1370 is listed by ISOGG as C1b (uniting C-M38 and C-M356), which again agrees with its placement here. However, K30, K31, K33, K35, F1171, and M3987 are listed by Y-Full under C1 (also confirmed by Hallast et al in the case of K35), so they should be placed in the C1’7 branch.

It looks like the C1'7 (=C1) branch should have 8 SNPs and the C2'7 (=C1b) branch should have 3 SNPs, with the placement of the other 2 SNPs uncertain. However, it seems the ISOGG C1b (C2'7) branch is confirmed.

So I think your above tree is correct, Hector, except that C1b should be F1370/K116/K150 rather than K30.

04-03-2015, 09:30 PM
I went through the supp info for Karmin et al and Hallast et al.

I have not checked with Hallast's paper but if what you said are true you are probably right.(ie.your reasoning appears correct)
I used K30 because parasar mentioned something to the effect that F1370 might be unstable. As long as there are other SNP's that node is secure. But fewer SNP's for that branch may indicate that C1b's shared common ancestors for a short period after parting with C1a.
As I recall not all Australian C's are M347+, but that may not be much of problem since C1b2 has a long branch occupied by 27 SNPs if Karmin is right;probably the rest of Australian C's fall under that branch(actually even on the M347 side rather than M38 side). Their phylogenetic position(s) will be of interest regarding the early history of Australia.

05-09-2015, 12:32 AM
Experimental Composite Y-DNA Haplogroup C Tree by Ray Banks:
Yfull analysis Australasian C 49200 years

"F1370 might be unstable", could you give an example?

06-06-2017, 01:34 PM
Is this for Australian Aborigines ? Haplogroup C in Aborigines would be fascinating.

06-06-2017, 02:03 PM
Is this for Australian Aborigines ? Haplogroup C in Aborigines would be fascinating.
Y-DNA C in Australia and Papua New Guinea (https://yfull.com/tree/C-Z31885/).

06-06-2017, 02:30 PM