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Acque agitate
04-07-2015, 11:24 AM
Dear friends of the group R1b-U152,
as I had said some time ago, lately I'm trying to create some subgroups of R1b-U152 using the STR guide.
The latest results and the excellent work of our friend Richard Rocca has made my job easier.
Lately I seem to have identified several subgroups, predominantly R1b-L2 (I'm trying to find my own,
but I fear the worst) Among these subgroups there is one that concerns a person who attended this forum.
I refer to Wheaton and the subgroup FGC22501.
This subgroup is distinguishing trait from these 2 STR:
DYS385a = 12;
DYS438 = 13;
and it is divided into three families:
A. family Wheaton;
B. family Kidd;
C. family Dootz;

The family Kidd and Wheaton could be joined by these 2 STR (hypotheses):
DYS607=14 (not stable);
DYS557=17;

In this subgroup could belong the following samples (possibility estimated average 50%):
- Isaac Baron (157888);
- Meshack Green (143965);
- Louis Mabillard (B1553);
- Charles Tripp (45421);
- Issac Fletcher (31326);
- Jean Gaydou (N71913);
- Conrad Litzinger (210827);
- Thomas Tugwell (173863);
- Walraven van Benthem (97367);
- Gilles Moh (226657);


However, among these, there are some for which the likelihood is much higher. I refer to the following
that should belong to the family Kidd:
- Thomas Tugwell (173863);
- Walraven Van Benthem (97367);

With these STR guide:
DYS385b = 15;
DYS454 = 12 (only Kidd e Tugwell);
DYS464b = 16;
DYS464c = 16;
DYS464b = 16 (only Kidd e Tugwell);
DYS534 = 16;
DYS446 = 14;

and those that should belong to the family Wheaton:
- Conrad Litzinger (210827);

With these STR guide:
DYS458 = 16;
DYS447 = 16;
DYS4565 = 11;


I have not yet identified any sample that may belong to the family Dootz (I refer to recent samples).

It would be interesting if Tugwell, Van Benthem and Litzinger did the test FGC22501

I hope I have not bored you.

Kwheaton
04-07-2015, 12:14 PM
WOW!
You haven't bored me, but I am the manager of the WHEATON group! FGC22501 was requested from YSEQ but was not among the SNPS able to be Sanger Sequenced. It does not appear in either DOOTZ or KIDD's BigY so I suspect it is not covered. They both however are positive for FGC22538. As well as a number of anonymous others. All of the 22 other SNPS found in the WHEATON FGC Prime that are easily Sanger sequenced appear in a new panel available at YSEQ. I believe that one Other WHEATON and a KIDD are being tested now for that panel. I have tentaive committments from two others kater this year. One a MALLENBY and one a WHEATON. The panel is called FGC22503 and is $231 at YSEQ and contains 21 SNPS and 1 INDEL. There are another half dozen SNPS that Astrid said Primers might be developed with a committment of 3 testers. The KIDD test will be key to see if there is anything below FGC22538 that they might share.

Rich Any ideas on whether these other members might be interested in testing further?

I will have a closer look at the possible origins of each of the propose surnames above. I recognize TUGWELL off the top as common in Wiltshire, Devon and Somerset. My target zone has been North Devon and Somerset and across the Bristol channel in Wales. And would include Gloucester.

I so thank you for your work and suggestions :)

Kwheaton
04-07-2015, 08:43 PM
I wonder if anyone has given any thought to a downstream panel of L2 to capture all the different branches. If it could be developed for a reasonabake price it might be something that L2's woukd consider????

Kwheaton
04-08-2015, 01:59 AM
Surprise result today. In our WHEATON panel FC22503 available at YSEQ we are testing 22 SNPS for our second WHEATON. These men are separated by a minimum of 305 years (MRCA bc 1606) Of the 16 reported so far the second WHEATON is positive for ALL of them. (The first number is the YSEQ Kit Number) I expected at least a couple of differences. None so far. It will be interesting to see if KIDD comes up positive for any of them.
2070 FGC22512 ChrY 6650692 6650692 A+
2070 FGC22514 ChrY 8191129 8191129 G+
2070 FGC22522 ChrY 14018390 14018390 T+
2070 FGC22523 ChrY 14669468 14669468 G+
2070 FGC22524 ChrY 15018061 15018061 C+
2070 FGC22525 ChrY 15079349 15079349 C+
2070 FGC22528 ChrY 15661096 15661096 A+
2070 FGC22534 ChrY 16343883 16343883 G+
2070 FGC22535 ChrY 16552415 16552415 T+
2070 FGC22536 ChrY 17651418 17651418 G+
2070 FGC22539 ChrY 19160312 19160312 A+
2070 FGC22546 ChrY 23113792 23113792 G+
2070 FGC22547 ChrY 23197247 23197247 A+
2070 FGC22549 ChrY 15024253 15024254 del+

R.Rocca
04-08-2015, 02:11 AM
I wonder if anyone has given any thought to a downstream panel of L2 to capture all the different branches. If it could be developed for a reasonabake price it might be something that L2's woukd consider????

Yes, but I don't think it would be economically feasible for the tester. There are so many different subclades right below L2 that the tester would not get a test of three, four or five subclades below L2.

Kwheaton
04-08-2015, 09:29 PM
Yes, but I don't think it would be economically feasible for the tester. There are so many different subclades right below L2 that the tester would not get a test of three, four or five subclades below L2.

So really better to test based on STR similarities, Locales and hunches? :)

Kwheaton
07-25-2015, 06:11 PM
Acque agitate

I want to give you credit for your predictions. You wrote

I refer to Wheaton and the subgroup FGC22501.
This subgroup is distinguishing trait from these 2 STR:
DYS385a = 12;
DYS438 = 13;
and it is divided into three families:
A. family Wheaton;
B. family Kidd;
C. family Dootz;

The family Kidd and Wheaton could be joined by these 2 STR (hypotheses):
DYS607=14 (not stable);
DYS557=17;

In this subgroup could belong the following samples (possibility estimated average 50%):
- Isaac Baron (157888);
- Meshack Green (143965);
- Louis Mabillard (B1553);
- Charles Tripp (45421);
- Issac Fletcher (31326);
- Jean Gaydou (N71913);
- Conrad Litzinger (210827);
- Thomas Tugwell (173863);
- Walraven van Benthem (97367);
- Gilles Moh (226657);

:beerchug:
Charles Tripp (45421) Does indeed share downstream SNPS with our WHEATON group including:
FGC22500 15719124 C T (Low Quality?)
FGC22501 3390633 G A
FGC22516 9843635 C T
FGC22528 15661096 G A This has been Sanger sequenced
FGC22533 1629214 C A
FGC22538 18099238 A G
FGC22547 23197247 G A This has been Sanger sequenced

For anyone interested we do have a segregation panel including many of these at YSEQ http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10796
This panel found two differences between two WHEATON whose MRCA was born in 1606
Making progress. And thank you Rich for the heads up!:drum:

Kwheaton
09-13-2015, 12:11 AM
Just thought I would post this very rough draft here of the possible migration route of FGC22501 and downstream SNPS

5899

Kwheaton
09-13-2015, 12:12 AM
Just thought I would post this very rough draft here of the possible migration route of FGC22501 and downstream SNPS. Easier to visualize this way.
Kelly

5899

Sorry about the double post...if someone can remove one that would be great.

haleaton
09-17-2015, 01:06 PM
Looks like FGC22501 had a positive call in the R1b SNP Pack and is now on the FTDNA Tree. Congratulations!

[Edit - what is also odd is that they want me to special order FGC22501 as an individual SNP, though it is not listed under advanced SNP orders.]

Acque agitate
10-02-2015, 09:57 AM
Brief update.
The test backbone confirmed my prediction of Walraven van Benthem.
I believe that he belongs to the family Kidd-Wheaton.

At this point I believe that the most likely sequence is as follows:

DYS385a = 12;
DYS438 = 13;

and later, specifically for family-Kidd Wheaton:

DYS534 = 16;

and after:

DYS449 = 28;
DYS557 = 17;

It would be interesting if the samples that meet these requirements will submit the BigY test
It would show a group that typically started from Central Europe and has also found a place in the UK (the fact that there are potentially
many samples owned by this group in the UK is due to the fact that the samples that we have available are concentrated in this area of ​​Europe).

P.S. I go into this discussion because I understood that interests Kwheaton. I will clear though that there are many other groups that may be obtained
by STR (the easiest are those in Northern Europe, where there has been a specialization).
Unfortunately I have not yet found the STR guide featuring my group :(:(

Acque agitate
10-02-2015, 10:27 AM
Another small update:
this group may also belong (Ysearch):

1) 83RA3 - Jean Pierre - Brussels, Belgium
2) JXRAW - Grosseto / Siena, Italy

Both were tested R1b-L2

Kwheaton
10-02-2015, 06:02 PM
Brief update.
The test backbone confirmed my prediction of Walraven van Benthem.
I believe that he belongs to the family Kidd-Wheaton.

At this point I believe that the most likely sequence is as follows:

DYS385a = 12;
DYS438 = 13;

and later, specifically for family-Kidd Wheaton:

DYS534 = 16;

and after:

DYS449 = 28;
DYS557 = 17;

It would be interesting if the samples that meet these requirements will submit the BigY test
It would show a group that typically started from Central Europe and has also found a place in the UK (the fact that there are potentially
many samples owned by this group in the UK is due to the fact that the samples that we have available are concentrated in this area of ​​Europe).

P.S. I go into this discussion because I understood that interests Kwheaton. I will clear though that there are many other groups that may be obtained
by STR (the easiest are those in Northern Europe, where there has been a specialization).
Unfortunately I have not yet found the STR guide featuring my group :(:(

Yes and this is do to your help! Grazie!
There is one result that does not show up but who I am in contact with and he is from Belgium. He contacted van Benthem and encouraged him to do the Backbone test. Based on his extensive knowledge of history and genealogy he places the likely origins of this group in the Verdun /Bar-de-Luc/ Toul area of France and then moving outward. Time will tell

As is shown on this thread there is a group of DYS438=13 who are Polish who are FGC22501- but that is quite east of the zone we are looking at.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5085-19-Subclades-and-Counting-L2-subclades-and-their-modal-values/page5

I am sorry you have not found the same kind of sifting STR that would sort your group but I think as we work together on these puzzles we all benefit in our deeper understanding of how the sons of L2 spread out across Europe. I will have some more FGC22501 updates soon.

Kwheaton
10-02-2015, 06:04 PM
Another small update:
this group may also belong (Ysearch):

1) 83RA3 - Jean Pierre - Brussels, Belgium
2) JXRAW - Grosseto / Siena, Italy

Both were tested R1b-L2

Thanks for the hints. :biggrin1:

Acque agitate
10-02-2015, 09:18 PM
Yes and this is do to your help! Grazie!
There is one result that does not show up but who I am in contact with and he is from Belgium. He contacted van Benthem and encouraged him to do the Backbone test. Based on his extensive knowledge of history and genealogy he places the likely origins of this group in the Verdun /Bar-de-Luc/ Toul area of France and then moving outward. Time will tell

As is shown on this thread there is a group of DYS438=13 who are Polish who are FGC22501- but that is quite east of the zone we are looking at.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5085-19-Subclades-and-Counting-L2-subclades-and-their-modal-values/page5

I am sorry you have not found the same kind of sifting STR that would sort your group but I think as we work together on these puzzles we all benefit in our deeper understanding of how the sons of L2 spread out across Europe. I will have some more FGC22501 updates soon.


Hello Kwheaton,
I am very happy to have been of help to you.
The new result that has just arrived and that concerns John whiffing (No. 210621) shows us that the first
STR that is fixed is DYS438 = 13, just after (for your branch) has set DYS385a = 12.

The story of your family is opening up all at once like a forgotten book in the attic.
I'm a little envious .... I think it's a wonderful feeling for you :angel:.
I hope you can always find out more :beerchug:

Kwheaton
10-02-2015, 09:51 PM
Hello Kwheaton,
I am very happy to have been of help to you.
The new result that has just arrived and that concerns John whiffing (No. 210621) shows us that the first
STR that is fixed is DYS438 = 13, just after (for your branch) has set DYS385a = 12.

The story of your family is opening up all at once like a forgotten book in the attic.
I'm a little envious .... I think it's a wonderful feeling for you :angel:.
I hope you can always find out more :beerchug:

Well I am a firm believer in pay it forward---so here's hoping it eventually comes round to you. :grouphug: And I can't help thinking it will.

What I am wondering---I suppose we all are---is whether L2 originated in Austria or N. Italy or was perhaps a bit more north but then the largest concentration expanded and was successful in the N. Italy and spread our from there.

I am finding it very much like a "forgotten book in the attic." In fact I have used the analogy that we carry the encyclopedia of our ancestors in our genes and we are just lucky enough to live in a time where we are beginning to be able to read where they have been.

I am excited about sharing this with my two grandsons 8 and 10 who carry this YDNA. How exciting for them to read stories of Celts and know that they still have the stories in their Y DNA. And then to go about tracing how PIE languages and perhaps our ancestors traveled west out of the Steppes into Gaul and then moved into England with the Romans or Normans and then to America in the 1600's...well just think of how real history becomes. No longer something abstract---but rather something real.

Here is a bit of an updated map---will always needing refining.
6123

Here's hoping we all find out more :beerchug:

As a side note I shared with Rich. Back in 1974 my parents traveled all over Europe. When I asked my father what place he thought I would like best he said Cortina d' Ampezzo. Someday I hope to make it there! My heart lies in the Dolomites!

MitchellSince1893
10-03-2015, 01:50 AM
...What I am wondering---I suppose we all are---is whether L2 originated in Austria or N. Italy or was perhaps a bit more north but then the largest concentration expanded and was successful in the N. Italy and spread our from there...


Looking at the L2 distribution map (found on the FTDNA U152 project page) and an overlay of the Danube River, it struck me that currently there are very few L2 samples near the Danube (shown in red).

Instead L2 samples are found on the north slope of the Carpathian Mountains and from there into the Czech Republic.

Whether this present pattern is a result of poor sampling from the Danube River area in Eastern Europe, and whether it has any bearing on the ancient L2 immigration is debatable, but it's food for thought.

I saw on another thread the theory that U106 took a North of Carpathian route...maybe L2 was part of this wave. Just need some ancient L2 samples from this area to help figure it out.

6124

Kwheaton
10-03-2015, 01:56 AM
Looking at the L2 distribution map (found on the FTDNA U152 project page) and an overlay of the Danube River, it struck me that currently there are very few L2 samples near the Danube (shown in red).

Instead L2 samples are found on the north slope of the Carpathian Mountains and from there into the Czech Republic.

Whether this present pattern is a result of poor sampling from the Danube River area in Eastern Europe, and whether it has any bearing on the ancient L2 immigration is debatable, but it's food for thought.

I saw on another thread the theory that U106 took a North of Carpathian route...maybe L2 was part of this wave. Just need some ancient L2 samples from this area to help figure it out.

6124

Hard to know but it seems the Rhine is a better proxy for L2 distribution.
6125

MitchellSince1893
10-03-2015, 02:45 AM
Hard to know but it seems the Rhine is a better proxy for L2 distribution.
6125

My current favorite L2 origin (red dot) and spread (based on L2's Midpt in the Czech Republic...derived from current L2 locations) is something like this.

6126

Subject to change as more data comes in.

Per your Rhine comment...based on current distributions, L2>Z49 may have originated near Eastern France/Western Germany somewhere between Switzerland and Luxembourg and used the Rhine River to get into the low countries and on to Britain and, used the Rhone River valley to enter eastern Spain and Italy.

Kwheaton
10-03-2015, 03:13 AM
My current favorite L2 origin (red dot) and spread (based on L2's Midpt in the Czech Republic...derived from current L2 locations) is something like this.

6126

Subject to change as more data comes in.

Per your Rhine comment...based on current distributions, L2>Z49 may have originated near Eastern France/Western Germany somewhere between Switzerland and Luxembourg and used the Rhine River to get into the low countries and on to Britain and, used the Rhone River valley to enter eastern Spain and Italy.

My FGC22501 match believes that the FGC22501 homeland is near the Muese River near Bar-le-Luc, France. We shall see. Its sure an interesting ride!