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View Full Version : Where were any of the DF13's Subclades located between 200bc to 200AD



MJost
04-10-2015, 09:44 PM
There now 19 key NGS subclades under L21>DF13. Where oh where could they have been found permanently hanging out 200 BC to 200AD?

We do know that Hinxon4 was DF21>DF25 found in Cambridgeshire, UK cal 1AD. DF25 is approximately eight SNPs down from DF13, which is with in his time frame. DF21 and the below were derived around 1100 bc using my SNP dating. Knowing that there was a R1b hot spot in two Beaker sites in central Germany at Kromsdorf (M269xU106~) and Quedlinburg (P312+~). Using any other clues that would suggest placement such as archaeology, surnames, pseudo history, are there any other knowledge that could help place map pins for each subclades, knowing what we know so far?



Subclade
#NGS


DF21
157


DF49
122


L513
112


ZZ10>Z253
112


FGC11134
91


L1335
72


DF41
61


ZZ10>Z255
56


Z251
47


FGC5494
35


S1026
17


S1051
9


ZZ10>MC14
7


CTS1751
6


ZZ10>CTS3386
6


Z16500
6


CTS11994
3


FGC13780
3


A4556/BY2868
2


BY575
2


L371
2


S16264
2


Z17300
2




MJost

MJost
04-12-2015, 10:33 PM
I thought for sure some would want to post their pet theories. So I will start.

My own DF13>FGC5494 appears to have four surnames that cluster within 30+/- miles of one another in area just west of the Rhine in the Landkreis (districts) near Bad Durkheim.

JWigand writes, "In addition to Bell Beaker and Corded Ware archaeological findings, the area around Bad Dürkheim is home to a concentration of Celtic archaeological sites, including one of the largest oppida, Donnersberg, which location has been in use from the late Bronze Age through the Iron Age. Additional oppida in the area include Heidenmauer, Kastel and Otzenhausen. Among well-known Celtic artifacts from the area is the Schwarzenbach cup, which Simon James dates to 475 – 450 BCE. According to a German archaeological website, this area was at the crossroads of the north-south trade route along the Rhine and the east-west trade route through the Isenach-Kaiserlauterner Valley to the Marne and Seine basin during the Halstatt and La Tčne periods. Manuel Fernández-Götz in Identity and Power, the Transformation of Iron Age Societies in Northeast Gaul, (a recently published book -- originally a doctoral dissertation -- that I highly recommend reading) asserts that the archeological and pollen records indicate the region experienced “…a real and sharp fall in population…” commencing around 400 BCE and ending around 150 BCE. Thus, evidence of where the so-called “Celtic migrations” originated."

After seeing that DF21>DF25 (DF25 is eighth derived SNP under DF13) was found in a inhabiting a non-permanent site in Britain. FGC5494 and any DF13 first tier subclade line DF21 were spawned around 1100bc. Briton, in the first century BC, had large tribal kingdoms with large agriculture based "oppida's" evidence for the presence of a wealthy elite, and for a range of non-agricultural activities including iron and pottery production, exchange of luxury goods and ritual activity. Along with large-scale iron smelting in some areas.

Note that the Euro Bronze Age ends 600 BC and the Iron Age begins in Northern Europe 6th century BC about fourth SNP down into each DF13 Subclade.

There are at least fifty five members of FGC5494 or below tested positive kits to date as per Walsh's L21 spreadsheet, along with almost 200 that should be based on 18 haplotype varieties. Not bad for just over a year (16 months) after discovery and initial Sanger sequenced confirmation and over 35 NGS (BigY & Full Genomes), YSeq & FtDNA Sanger Sequencing and Chip testing i.e. Chromo2.

This map shows the big central area that Big Daddy DF13 could have spawned its 20+ subclades around 1100 bc.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Bad+D%C3%BCrkheim,+Germany/Quedlinburg,+Germany/Kromsdorf,+Germany/Regensburg,+Germany/@50.0648002,9.1783018,7z/data=!4m26!4m25!1m5!1m1!1s0x4796376706474cbb:0x4c5 ccdd425f79f89!2m2!1d8.1654232!2d49.4598369!1m5!1m1 !1s0x47a5a2d492193369:0x4236659f8058c70!2m2!1d11.1 41448!2d51.7920562!1m5!1m1!1s0x47a41ba0533457fd:0x 4208ec174357940!2m2!1d11.373611!2d50.998889!1m5!1m 1!1s0x479fc121a4676721:0xa193050dd13cb73c!2m2!1d12 .101631!2d49.0134074!3e2

MJost

rms2
04-13-2015, 12:05 AM
IMHO, DF41/CTS2501 is primarily Brythonic. Chris McCown summed things up pretty well here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3684-Wales-and-DF41&p=74890&viewfull=1#post74890).

Kopfjäger
04-13-2015, 02:59 AM
There now 19 key NGS subclades under L21>DF13. Where oh where could they have been found permanently hanging out 200 BC to 200AD?


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that L21 was born somewhere in central Germany, and it made its way to the Atlantic fringes via waterways/rivers. Most of the areas it frequented would ultimately fall within the Celtic sphere of influence, but I am not sure if its original tongue was Proto-Celtic or some undefined, early Indo-European dialect not unlike early Italo-Celtic.

David Mc
04-13-2015, 08:24 PM
The question of origins and the question of where DF13 and descendants were between 200BC and 200AD are really two different ones... I'd agree with you, in principle, on the starting point. By the time 200 BC comes around, I think they had probably established themselves along the Atlantic, on both sides of the English channel and across the British Isles. I would guess that they had a significant presence from the Netherlands to the Venetic territories in the south of France, but gradually gave way to the constant pressure of the Germanic tribes pushing their way southwards. In the old homelands in central Germany, I would guess U152 became the dominant haplogroup and continued to thrive there until they experienced the same pressure from the Germanic migrations (but I am not as familiar with U152, so it is a hesitant guess).

MJost
04-13-2015, 09:18 PM
I adjusted a Google map of the golden L11 subclades diamond Bad Durkheim, Quedlinburg, Kromsdorf, Regensburg & Heuneburg boundaries covering 2600bc at Kromsdorf to 2350bc at Quedlinburg to Bad Durkheim suggest home of FGC5494 since 1100bc and Heuneburg around 600BC. Approximately 2000 year range that covers P312 to four SNPs under DF13, a total of 14 SNPs. This block of time had a massive temperature increase three degrees until 1300bc then dropping two degrees but raising back another one degree until 1AD when it fell again back to the temperature range just prior to P312.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Bad+D%C3%BCrkheim,+Germany/Quedlinburg,+Germany/Kromsdorf,+Germany/Regensburg,+Germany/Freilichtmuseum+Heuneburg,+Heuneburg+1-2,+88518+Hundersingen,+Germany/Bad+D%C3%BCrkheim,+Germany/@49.9189623,7.7775246,7z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m38!4m37!1m5!1m1!1s0x4796376706474c bb:0x4c5ccdd425f79f89!2m2!1d8.1654232!2d49.4598369 !1m5!1m1!1s0x47a5a2d492193369:0x4236659f8058c70!2m 2!1d11.141448!2d51.7920562!1m5!1m1!1s0x47a41ba0533 457fd:0x4208ec174357940!2m2!1d11.373611!2d50.99888 9!1m5!1m1!1s0x479fc121a4676721:0xa193050dd13cb73c! 2m2!1d12.101631!2d49.0134074!1m5!1m1!1s0x479a30d48 629f93f:0x2402a35830e218c4!2m2!1d9.411021!2d48.095 443!1m5!1m1!1s0x4796376706474cbb:0x4c5ccdd425f79f8 9!2m2!1d8.1654232!2d49.4598369!3e2

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNUDdib0tnTU5uSms/view?usp=sharing

This is considerably interesting due to these sites from a very date website:

http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/Barbarians/Sites/Heuneburg/HeuneMap1.jpg

MJost

David Mc
04-14-2015, 01:45 AM
JWigand writes, "In addition to Bell Beaker and Corded Ware archaeological findings, the area around Bad Dürkheim is home to a concentration of Celtic archaeological sites, including one of the largest oppida, Donnersberg, which location has been in use from the late Bronze Age through the Iron Age. Additional oppida in the area include Heidenmauer, Kastel and Otzenhausen. Among well-known Celtic artifacts from the area is the Schwarzenbach cup, which Simon James dates to 475 – 450 BCE. According to a German archaeological website, this area was at the crossroads of the north-south trade route along the Rhine and the east-west trade route through the Isenach-Kaiserlauterner Valley to the Marne and Seine basin during the Halstatt and La Tčne periods. Manuel Fernández-Götz in Identity and Power, the Transformation of Iron Age Societies in Northeast Gaul, (a recently published book -- originally a doctoral dissertation -- that I highly recommend reading) asserts that the archeological and pollen records indicate the region experienced “…a real and sharp fall in population…” commencing around 400 BCE and ending around 150 BCE. Thus, evidence of where the so-called “Celtic migrations” originated."...

Hi MJost. Great topic, by the way. So to be clear, is it your belief that DF13 and of its subclades all migrated from Central Germany westwards during this period (400-150BC), as a La Tene migration into Gaul and the British Isles, or just FGC5494?

MJost
04-14-2015, 08:40 PM
Hi MJost. Great topic, by the way. So to be clear, is it your belief that DF13 and of its subclades all migrated from Central Germany westwards during this period (400-150BC), as a La Tene migration into Gaul and the British Isles, or just FGC5494?

I am only considering all P312>L21>DF13 lineages. To date, we are seeing a string of 10 SNPs, running between 2660bc to 1130bc or over a 1500 year range that had 48 to 76 generations of a constant surviving direct lineage. There, I am sure, were many sons that did not procreate or daughter-ed out, and this may have taken many generations to have occurred. ONE man directly produced one male lineage each generation until Big Daddy DF13 started spawning 23+ different subclades as we know it to date.

Was this single lineage from P312 to L21 to DF13 moving around each generation back and forth around the continent or back and forth between the various islands dropping his seed, no. they stay within central and then southern Germany, the land of plenty for the new arrived Mr. P312 and ability to start his family finding low population density allowing easy settlement following 'the lie of the land' being closely bound to the soil.

I now personably believe that L11>P311 had an initial spread of the more recent ancestors of P311's, out of the Yamna phase II into phase III, most likely followed the dry naturally open country north of the central mountain of Europe and south of the extensive marshes of the Pripet from north west of the Black Sea following the extensive loess lands. And P311>U106 & P312 stayed north. U106 branch and stayed in the area central to the Movarian gate lands east of the Elbie. P312 continuing further west as found in Kromsdorf with two site - grave#5: R1b-M269+ S21/U106- & grave#8: R1b~M343+ M269? S21/U106- dated 2,600–2,500 cal BC (2 SD) most likely P312+ based on my most recent SNP dating re-calibrations from Mal'ti boy and mine to present of 151 years per SNP. Later at Quedlinburg, I0806 P312+~ (2296-2206 cal BCE) mostly likely L21.


Was this single lineage moving around each generation back and forth around the continent or back and forth between the various islands dropping his seed, no. They stay within south Germany, the land of plenty for the new arrived Mr. P312 and ability to start his family finding low population density allowing easy settlement following 'the lie of the land' but being closely bound to the soil. And stayed in central and southern Germany for 1500 years only moving for farming needs.

In a paper:
Sediment budget for five millennia of tillage in the Rockenberg catchment (Wetterau loess basin, Germany)
Peter Houben
Accepted 16 July 2012
Available online

Fact to consider from this paper:

The Rockenberg catchment can be seen as representative of the regional-scale Wetterau loess basin and almost typical of south German, pristine soil parent material of the Rockenberg catchment. Loessial deposits cover ~93% of the catchment surface.

Over the last 5000 years of agriculture there was negligible impact of preceding Early and Middle Neolithic land use activities. Early and Middle Neolithic settlements consisted of a few scattered and shifting hamlets, and population density (0.4 persons km-2) was significantly lesser than in the End Neolithic (~5000 BP; ~1 person km-2) and thereafter (Zimmermann et al., 2009).

North route from Odessa on the Black Sea to Kromsdorf BB burial site example:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Odessa,+Odessa+Oblast,+Ukraine/Kromsdorf,+Germany/Quedlinburg,+Germany/Bad+D%C3%BCrkheim,+Germany/@48.7628629,9.9807002,2019611m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m26!4m25!1m5!1m1!1s0x40c6318a0b 864c43:0x129f8fe28cf2176c!2m2!1d30.7233095!2d46.48 2526!1m5!1m1!1s0x47a41ba0533457fd:0x4208ec17435794 0!2m2!1d11.373611!2d50.998889!1m5!1m1!1s0x47a5a2d4 92193369:0x4236659f8058c70!2m2!1d11.141448!2d51.79 20562!1m5!1m1!1s0x4796376706474cbb:0x4c5ccdd425f79 f89!2m2!1d8.1654232!2d49.4598369!3e2

P312>U152 went south and may have followed BB and the tin that was first found and mined in Europe around 2500 BCE in Erzgebirge, and further learning the knowledge of tin bronze and tin extraction techniques and settled in Heuneburg. DF27 may have followed the old BB trade routes for tin in Brittany, Devon and Cornwall, and in the Iberian Peninsula around 2000 BC shortly before the Bell Beaker culture ended around 1800bc. The shortage of tin begins in the Med 1300bc with Iron production taking place in Anatolia around 1200 BC. Iron Age begins later in Central Europe 8th century BC.

> belief that DF13 and of its subclades all migrated from Central Germany westwards during this period (400-150BC), as a La Tene migration into Gaul and the British Isles, or just FGC5494?

Yes I consider all DF13 subclades, for what ever reason shortly after being spawned in Southern Germany at the end of the bronze age and when Iron production came quickly on the scene from Eastern Europe, early 1st millennium BC. Just around this time Big Daddy DF13 may have realized that Iron would be a very profitable item and rapidly began expanding in large numbers, his sons and their sons. By the time Iron Age was established in Central Europe by the 8th century BC there is increasing evidence of Great Britain becoming closely tied to continental Europe, especially in Britain's South and East by P312's sons, U152 into Southern and eastern edges of Britain and Scotland and DF27 (P312xL21, u152) which has considerable more frequency that U152 in the isles, as per the Busby paper. During the 8th century BC, the climate turned colder quickly by several degrees and the climate became considerably wetter causing farmstead to move further upland. The DF13 sons were most likely involved in the expansion of Iron into Western and Northern Europe by 600 BC and southwards to Heuneburg was being reoccupied, extended & re-fortified at the same time. Farming may have had to be moved uplands as well and surely needed to be expanded as the population of the now Celts spread through most of central and western Europe and into the isles. The name Κελτοί Keltoi and Celtae is used in Greek and Latin, respectively, as the name of a people of the La Tčne horizon in the region of the upper Rhine and Danube during the 6th to 1st centuries BC.

In the case of DF13>FGC5494 some must have stayed home in Bad Durkheim but as Jim W posted: Manuel Fernández-Götz in Identity and Power, the Transformation of Iron Age Societies in Northeast Gaul, (a recently published book -- originally a doctoral dissertation -- that I highly recommend reading) asserts that the archeological and pollen records indicate the region experienced “…a real and sharp fall in population…” commencing around 400 BCE and ending around 150 BCE. Thus, evidence of where the so-called “Celtic migrations” originated." Germanic peoples moved out of southern Scandinavia and Germany to the adjacent lands between the Elbe and Oder after 1000 BC. The first wave moved westward and southward (pushing the remaining resident Celts west to the Rhine by about 200 BC) and moving into southern Germany up to the Roman province of Gaul by 100 BC, where they were stopped by Gaius Marius and Julius Caesar.

Thus my attempt to understand when and where the various DF13 subclades, all 23 spawned with in a short number of generations since 1100bc, considering a climate change that caused a bottle necked in the 8th century for a time creating strong diverse lineages. During this time and shortly afterwards may have then cause some lines to migrated out of southern Germany head north and west of the Rhine and into southern half of Britain, and even more, when the strong beginning of the main Iron age around 600 bc, La Tene began and culminated with the German migration westward pressures and Caesar's conquests.

MJost

David Mc
04-14-2015, 10:24 PM
Thank you for a very in depth response! I am going to have to spend some time processing it all. I have tended to see DF13 moving west earlier than you, but then I've been working from the understanding that the first DF13 was born sometime around 2400 BC, whereas you've placed him closer to 1500 BC (please correct me if I've misunderstood you). Either way, you present a fascinating argument. The Amesbury archer (for example) and other earlier Beaker people in the Isles would likely be DF27 in your view?

MJost
04-14-2015, 11:11 PM
The DF13 would start at 1436bc. L21 six SNP block starting around 2357bc with P312 two SNPs back at 2664 bc.

Amesbury Archer 40 year old is dated 2470–2280 cal BC. Base on the strontium isotope analysis of his teeth he was from the Alps region while a child, either Switzerland, Austria or Germany. He could be a HG 'G' or another one and not R1b. The age would fit the node level of the first SNP in the L21 block of six SNPs. I could see that a son of P312 could have been that far south already but probably not in the higher altitudes, but who knows. To bad they don't have any DNA from him.

MJost

David Mc
04-14-2015, 11:50 PM
The DF13 would start at 1436bc. L21 six SNP block starting around 2357bc with P312 two SNPs back at 2664 bc.

Amesbury Archer 40 year old is dated 2470–2280 cal BC. Base on the strontium isotope analysis of his teeth he was from the Alps region while a child, either Switzerland, Austria or Germany. He could be a HG 'G' or another one and not R1b. The age would fit the node level of the first SNP in the L21 block of six SNPs. I could see that a son of P312 could have been that far south already but probably not in the higher altitudes, but who knows. To bad they don't have any DNA from him.

MJost

If DF13 and sons made their way west during the La Tene phase, how is it that we see so little La Tene influence in Ireland, a place that is (unless I am very mistaken) largely DF13+?

David Mc
04-14-2015, 11:54 PM
I'm not arguing, by the way, I'm just working things out in my own head and trying to reconcile this model with the archaeological record of the British Isles. I'm deeply interested in how this might work out, in that it helps shine the light on my own ancestors' journey to the Isle of Man (because everything before Mann is a bit of a mystery).

David Mc
04-15-2015, 02:35 AM
The DF13 would start at 1436bc. L21 six SNP block starting around 2357bc with P312 two SNPs back at 2664 bc.

Amesbury Archer 40 year old is dated 2470–2280 cal BC. Base on the strontium isotope analysis of his teeth he was from the Alps region while a child, either Switzerland, Austria or Germany. He could be a HG 'G' or another one and not R1b. The age would fit the node level of the first SNP in the L21 block of six SNPs. I could see that a son of P312 could have been that far south already but probably not in the higher altitudes, but who knows. To bad they don't have any DNA from him.

MJost

Sorry to barrage you with questions, but would you see the Bronze Age British as being essentially Neolithic (say, I2 and G2) or a mix of Neolithic and earlier clades of R1b?

MJost
04-15-2015, 03:55 PM
Sorry to barrage you with questions, but would you see the Bronze Age British as being essentially Neolithic (say, I2 and G2) or a mix of Neolithic and earlier clades of R1b?

There could be some rare R1b due to geographical location and dating. This is above my pay grade thats for sure.

As I posted earlier; "Over the last 5000 years of agriculture there was negligible impact of preceding Early and Middle Neolithic land use activities. Early and Middle Neolithic settlements consisted of a few scattered and shifting hamlets, and population density (0.4 persons km-2) was significantly lesser than in the End Neolithic (~5000 BP; ~1 person km-2) and thereafter (Zimmermann et al., 2009)."

Looking at the isles populations it seems to match the exsisting european percentages.

England UK, covering 130,395 square kilometres Not counting South coast of Wales)
(50% only in use @ 65,198 square kilometres)

2000bc high side est 250000 people, 0.52158 (0.26079) per KM^2
4000bc high side est 100000 people, 1.30395 (0.651975) per KM^2
5000bc est 2,750–5,500 people 0.055 (0.084) per KM^2

Stonehenge was built between 3000 BC to 2000 BC. Radiocarbon dating in 2008 suggested that the first stones were raised between 2400 and 2200 BC. Stonehenge had its Neolithic form elaborated extensively. The Early Bronze age Bell Beaker and Meaglithic cultures along with Roundhouses built into the bronze age influenced Britain 2000-3000 bc. Neolithic European farmers were confirmed to have belonged to Y-DNA haplogroups E1b1b and G2a. I2 is also more frequent in Europe as well. Only later ere hill forts build on higher ground and rectangular houses style were used in southern Britain and even mentioned by Caesar that the mostly rectangle as being no different that the Celts in Gaul and Po Valley.

Britain's later rectangular design influence came from a long-standing tradition east of the Rhine.
The Iron Age in Northern Britain: Celts and Romans, Natives and Invaders
By D.W. Harding

MJost

David Mc
04-15-2015, 04:28 PM
Britain's later rectangular design influence came from a long-standing tradition east of the Rhine.
The Iron Age in Northern Britain: Celts and Romans, Natives and Invaders
By D.W. Harding
MJost

There still seems to be a problem with Ireland, though, doesn't there? Again, some, but relatively few La Tene artifacts, and a continuing round house tradition which continued up until the Viking Age, yet probably mostly DF13+. Doesn't that suggest an earlier arrival than the Iron Age?

Professor Jim Mallory, in his Origins of the Irish, points out that it has always been difficult to show (archaeologically) where any significant migration events might have taken place in Ireland. He does suggest that the Bronze Age has the hallmarks of a larger cultural infusion, including but not limited to the extensive use of fortification.

MJost
04-15-2015, 07:22 PM
There still seems to be a problem with Ireland, though, doesn't there? Again, some, but relatively few La Tene artifacts, and a continuing round house tradition which continued up until the Viking Age, yet probably mostly DF13+. Doesn't that suggest an earlier arrival than the Iron Age?

Professor Jim Mallory, in his Origins of the Irish, points out that it has always been difficult to show (archaeologically) where any significant migration events might have taken place in Ireland. He does suggest that the Bronze Age has the hallmarks of a larger cultural infusion, including but not limited to the extensive use of fortification.
E
Ok good question. How do we know what major haplogroup was already there or arrived before the Iron age? DF13's sons could have been trekking into the Isles right at the beginning of the iron age, but L21 initially appears to have been near the Harz mountains and migrating south to the better farm lands. One Man and his direct descendants for five more SNPs. 2300 bc to 1430 bc. L21's cousins, from the U152's & DF27's could have been involved in the tin aspect around 2050bc from Brittany, to Devon and Cornwall, and in the Iberian Peninsula. DF13's sons didn't even experience Iron until 8th century BC but may have been gearing up for it in central Europe producing a massive number of offspring and those producing more. We have considerable L21+ continentals from various studies but these would be mostly DF13's sons as we know it know with 23+ branches. Doesn't make since thinking DF13 lived in isles before becoming the Big Daddy.


MJost

MJost
04-15-2015, 07:56 PM
Lets re-look at the westward route my next post on that ended up where P312+ was found in Kromsdorf, Germany. Speculating here, I show the best path is the best route for foot (least resistant) path that is over 1738 Km distance to the Black Sea. I chose Odessa due to being the suggested hotspot for L23. Migrating from around the mountains at a 1 km per year rate, its over 1700 year time period. Then from Odessa back to Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia. This movement path seems logical considering L11's block of seven SNPs start on the westward leg towards Kromsdorf, Germany and ends as P312+~. Note L11 block of SNPs start just before Yamna Culture 3600bc. L51 is shown closest to the Black Sea and L23 is technically in the middle of up and coming Yamna culture territory around Dnepropetrovsk, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, Ukraine. There is almost 2000 Km northwest from Odessa to Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia. I realize that all of this based on shortest best routes and may not have occurred at all but the general start and end points did, and a strong L23 & L23>L51 presence near the Black Sea is factual.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Lebyazhinka,+Samarskaya+oblast',+Russia/Samara,+Samara+Oblast,+Russia/Dnepropetrovsk,+Dnipropetrovsk+Oblast,+Ukraine/Odessa,+Odessa+Oblast,+Ukraine/Velyka+Vulyha,+Vinnyts'ka+oblast,+Ukraine/G%C3%B6rlitz,+Germany/Kromsdorf,+Germany/@51.4007429,29.9126151,1699836m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m44!4m43!1m5!1m1!1s0x416659eb034007 03:0x586a416499b01478!2m2!1d50.6739055!2d53.679990 4!1m5!1m1!1s0x416618e22bd879d3:0xba95cda9bb3a030b! 2m2!1d50.140833!2d53.202778!1m5!1m1!1s0x40dbe303fd 08468f:0xa1cf3d5f2c11aba!2m2!1d35.046183!2d48.4647 17!1m5!1m1!1s0x40c6318a0b864c43:0x129f8fe28cf2176c !2m2!1d30.7233095!2d46.482526!1m5!1m1!1s0x40cd4dbc e97d523b:0xf5e28371c90cdd3c!2m2!1d28.580833!2d48.8 6!1m5!1m1!1s0x4708dc31a78fee7f:0x5e9effc1a38b3b57! 2m2!1d14.968707!2d51.1506269!1m5!1m1!1s0x47a41ba05 33457fd:0x4208ec174357940!2m2!1d11.373611!2d50.998 889!3e2





R1b1a2 (M269 Block of 38 SNPs)
(Lebyazhinka I0124-Basal L278* 5640-5555 calBCE)
7734
5734 BC
3684
0
Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia


34
(Serbia - high temp copper 5500bc)
7581
5581 BC





35
Unordered SNPs
7427
5427 BC
2916
767



36
(Spain I0410 Basal M415* {V88?} 5178-5066 cal BCE)
7274
5274 BC
2763
921



37
Unordered SNPs
7120
5120 BC





38
Unordered SNPs
6967
4967 BC





R1b1a2a
L23/S141/PF6534
6813
4813 BC
2302
1381
Dnepropetrovsk, Dnipropetrovsk Oblast, Ukraine



L478/PF6403
6660
4660 BC





R1b1a2a1
L51/M412/S167/PF6536 (R-Z2103 branched)
6506
4506 BC
1995
1688
(Northeast of Odessa)



PF6414
6353
4353 BC
1842
1842
Odessa, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine



CTS10373/PF6537
6199
4199 BC
1688
1995




PF6535
6046
4046 BC





R1b1a2a1a
L11/S127/PF6539
5892
3892 BC
1381
2302
Velyka Vulyha, Vinnyts'ka oblast, Ukraine


2
YSC0000191/PF6543/S1159 (Baalberge_MN I0559 R* 3645-3537 cal BCE) (Yamna culture start 3600bc)
5739
3739 BC





3
P310/S129/PF6546 (Yamna phase II)
5585
3585 BC





4
L52/PF6541 (Yamnaya I0439 [and I0443] basal R1b1a* 3305-2925 cal BCE)
5432
3432 BC





5
CTS7650/PF6544/S1164 (Aegean Bronze Age begins around 3200 BCE)
5278
3278 BC





6
PF5856
5125
3125 BC





7
L151/PF6542 (Bell Beaker culture start 2900bc)
4971
2971 BC





8
P311/S128/PF6545 (Yamna phase III)
4818
2818 BC
307
3377
Görlitz, Germany U106 split past this point


R1b1a2a1a2
P312/S116/PF6547 (U106 Branched) (Erzgebirge tin mining, dated to 2500 BC) {Kromsdorf 2 - grave#5: R1b-M269+ S21/U106- & grave#8: R1b~M343+ M269? S21/U106- [2,600–2,500 cal BC (2 SD)]}
4664
2664 BC






Z1904/CTS12684/PF65 (BB Central Euro 2500bc)
4511
2511 BC
0
3684
Kromsdorf, Germany





MJost

MJost
04-16-2015, 04:35 PM
I thought I would play with the route that R, who most likely was also near the Mal'ti Boy's location near Lake Balik to over a 4000 Km route as hunter-gathers might have taken, Based on the 153 years per SNP, who most likely moved about 0.25 Km year (estimation based on the total direct distance just over 4000 km). Below is the Google Map link and the R1 tree mutations list that I plotted along this route to end up in Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia where I0124 was found buried.

By the time R1 reached the Bulaevo, Kazakhstan area around 11700BC the Holocene the time since the end of the last major glacial epoch, or "ice age. Also this would have been approximately where the R1a mutation occurred.

Remember I am just speculating.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/52.9%C2%B0N+103.5%C2%B0E/Kansk,+Krasnoyarsk+Krai,+Russia/Krasnoyarsk,+Krasnoyarsk+Krai,+Russia/Bulaevo+%D0%91%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2/Petropavl,+Kazakhstan/Petukhovo,+Kurgan+Oblast,+Russia/Vargashi,+Kurganskaya+oblast',+Russia/Lebyazhinka,+Samarskaya+oblast',+Russia/@55.6346485,74.2970773,4z/data=!4m50!4m49!1m5!1m1!1s0x0:0x0!2m2!1d103.5!2d52 .9!1m5!1m1!1s0x5cded3d550d84947:0x562344af0bcee4a9 !2m2!1d95.716667!2d56.2!1m5!1m1!1s0x5cd7afc9a1ff37 e3:0xd597e1468fd647ff!2m2!1d92.8932476!2d56.015283 4!1m5!1m1!1s0x43ad9421467f8901:0xbbee20398c73f7ac! 2m2!1d70.4574593!2d54.9066121!1m5!1m1!1s0x43b23a38 3d9aa3dd:0x5349226c95938f6f!2m2!1d69.1505478!2d54. 8732209!1m5!1m1!1s0x43b142a8bda9bf91:0xb0b866997ca 462d5!2m2!1d67.9!2d55.066667!1m5!1m1!1s0x43b707620 c3fce67:0x993e5d3239008913!2m2!1d65.816667!2d55.37 0833!1m5!1m1!1s0x416659eb03400703:0x586a416499b014 78!2m2!1d50.6739055!2d53.6799904!3e2

R-Tree with dates and notes:



R
P232
24464
22464 BC


location suggested as near by Lake Balik


2

24311
22311 BC


location suggested as near by Lake Balik


3

24157
22157 BC


location suggested as near by Lake Balik


4
P224/PF6050 (Mal'ti Boy (four year old) R* equiv node 22000 cal bc 52.9°N 103.5°E near river Belaya that flows into Lake Baikal)
24004
22004 BC
0

Near Lake Balik, Irkutskaya oblast', Russia


5

23851
21851 BC
154
38.4
As Hunter–gatherer depleted plants and animals they may have migrated at a rate of ~0.25 Km per year base on distant to Lebyazhinka


R.1-Y482
Y482/PF6056/F459
21088
19088 BC
2917
729.1
Kansk, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia


R1
M781/PF6145
20474
18474 BC
3531
882.6
Krasnoyarsk, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia


R1b
M343/PF6242 (Holocene 11700BC-present, end of Ice Age) (R1a Split)
13720
11720 BC
10285
2571.1
Bulaevo, Kazakhstan


R1b1
M415/PF6251
13567
11567 BC
10438
2609.5
Petropavl, Kazakhstan


R1b1a
P297/PF6398 (V88 Branch split)
13106
11106 BC
10899
2724.6
Petukhovo, Kurgan Oblast, Russia


R1b1a2
M269/PF6517 (M73, M478 Branch split)(Moving westwards M269 block may have skirted parts of the the southern Urals)
12646
10646 BC
11359
2839.8
Vargashi, Kurganskaya oblast', Russia


33th SNP
(Lebyazhinka I0124-Basal L278* 5640-5555 calBCE)
7734
5734 BC
16271
4067.8
Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia




MJost

MJost
04-17-2015, 01:59 PM
Discussing the route through Central and North Asia, before and after the start of Holocene to 2000 b.c. would encompasses present-day Afghanistan, China (Xinjiang Province), Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Mongolia, eastern Russia, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan.

The land use was much different for hunter-gathers.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=02&region=nc

The landscape and climate of Central and North Asia is divided into zones that extend east-west across the broad expanse of Eurasia. In the far north is an arctic zone with tundra vegetation, which can support only small numbers of people with hunting and reindeer-herding economies. Next, a forest zone called the taiga has coniferous trees of varying kinds over its extent; the landscape supports hunting, fishing, and the gathering of plants. In most places, the taiga is separated from the next zone—the steppes—by a mixed forest that includes deciduous trees (sometimes called the forest-steppes). The steppes itself is a relatively flat grassland occasionally broken by hills, rivers, lakes, and seas. The southernmost part of Central Asia, both east and west, is desert, edged by mountain ranges. It is in the steppes, the oases of the desert, and the foothills of the mountains that cultures change most rapidly from 8000 to 2000 B.C.

Although in southern Central Asia the relative chronological positions of various cultures are generally clear, the absolute chronological dates remain a matter of scholarly debate. For consistency across timelines, "calibrated" carbon-14 dates are used here, resulting in dates up to 500 years earlier than traditional dates for these periods.

In this timeline, "neolithic" indicates cultures whose food sources are based on hunting, gathering, and fishing, and stone tools and weapons more sophisticated than in the previous "mesolithic"; "eneolithic" denotes cultures with some food production from domesticated plants and/or animals; and "bronze age" means cultures with economies producing their food with developed technologies such as irrigation agriculture or systematic stockbreeding of domesticated animals

North:
Hunting and fishing cultures in the tundra band, ca. to 2000 b.c
http://www.cosmicelk.net/mammothhunters.htm
Note location of Krasnoyarsk, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia North west of Lake Balik on the above webpage image.

Another source for land usage and why I adjusted the movement to match the .25 km movement which matched the actual route timing.

http://persquaremile.com/2011/08/17/hunter-gatherer-populations-show-humans-are-hardwired-for-density/
http://www.pnas.org/content/104/11/4765.abstract

MJost

MJost
04-18-2015, 03:20 AM
If the west ward migration direction actually was correct, it wasn't until about Bulaevo, Kazakhstan that the Ice Age went Holocene and R1a was spawned. V88 Branch split off four SNPs later, and three more SNPs later the M269 block was spawned along with the M73 & M478 Branch split off at around Vargashi, Kurganskaya oblast', Russia just east of the Urals. M269 block of 38, was up to the 32nd SNP when it got to Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia area with a grave with I0124 with a Basal L278* result. 5640-5555 calBCE. Note that R1b1 L278 & M415/PF6251) is ancestral to R1b1a2 M269 and R1b1a1 M478, (M73).

Yes I0124 was ancestral for R1b1a2 M269 and R1b1a1 M478 thus I accept the R1b1a1 M478 being negative but M269 has not been ordered in its exact place from known testing. M269 could have been mutation well downstream anywhere within the 38 SNP block so testing I0124 for M269 may not have mutated yet. At the age of I1024 there should be around six more SNPs below where M269 could have came on the scene.

I0124 was still a hunter-gather culture still well before animals had started to be domesticated and dies in what appears to be a seasonally occupied site.

Lebyazhinka, Samarskaya oblast', Russia area with a grave with I0124.

I0124 (Samara_HG)
The hunter-gatherer from Samara belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (L278:18914441C→T), with
upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, he was ancestral for both
the downstream haplogroup R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C) and R1b1a2 (M269:22739367T→C) and
could be designated as R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2). Thus, this individual was basal to most west
Eurasian R1b individuals which belong to the R-M269 lineage as well as to the related R-M73/M478
lineage that has a predominantly non-European distribution17


Massive migration from the steppe is a source for Indo-European languages in Europe
Haak et al 2014
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1502/1502.02783.pdf

"Hunter-gatherer samples
We generated data on two hunter-gatherer samples from western Russia (the easternmost part
of Europe) to bridge the geographical gap between the West European site Loschbour
(WHG)2 and the Siberian site Mal’ta in Siberia, Russia3, from which hunter-gatherer genetic
data are available from the literature.

The individual we refer to as ‘Samara hunter-gatherer’
I0124/SVP44 (5640-5555 calBCE, Beta-392490)
is an adult male from grave 1 in a Neolithic-Eneolithic settlement producing artifacts from the
Elshanka, Samara, and Repin cultures. The specific site is Lebyazhinka IV, on the Sok River,
Samara oblast, Russia. (‘Neolithic’ here refers to the presence of ceramics, not to
domesticated animals or plants.) The radiocarbon date of this individual, based on a femur, is
centuries before the appearance of domesticated animals in the middle Volga region.
Lebyazhinka IV and the neighboring Lebyazhinka V site were occupied seasonally by
multiple cultures between 7000-3500 BCE; a few graves were found in the settled areas6.

Early Neolithic
The Early Neolithic in Europe in this study is represented by new samples reported from sites
in Hungary, Germany and Spain.

The central European Neolithic (6200–3950 BCE) is first manifested in the Starčevo culture,
the Transdanubian Linienbandkeramik (LBKT), and the central European distribution of the
Linienbandkeramik (LBK); these were the first people in the region to exploit agriculture and
animal husbandry7. The Linienbandkeramik appears earliest in the archaeological record of
western Hungary (Transdanubia), where it incorporated novel technologies and cultural
elements from the preceding, southeastern Starčevo culture, which in turn also shows
similarities in material culture to early farming groups further southeast, including Anatolia,
the Levant and the Near East. During the Neolithic transition, the LBK expanded relatively
rapidly along the major waterways and fertile Loess plains towards towards central Europe, extending
as far as the Paris Basin in the West and Ukraine in the East8,9.

I0124 (Samara_HG)
The hunter-gatherer from Samara belonged to haplogroup R1b1 (L278:18914441C→T), with
upstream haplogroup R1b (M343:2887824C→A) also supported. However, he was ancestral for both
the downstream haplogroup R1b1a1 (M478:23444054T→C) and R1b1a2 (M269:22739367T→C) and
could be designated as R1b1*(xR1b1a1, R1b1a2). Thus, this individual was basal to most west
Eurasian R1b individuals which belong to the R-M269 lineage as well as to the related R-M73/M478
lineage that has a predominantly non-European distribution17. The occurrence of chromosomes basal
to the most prevalent lineages within haplogroups R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers,
together with the finding of basal haplogroup R* in the ~24,000-year old Mal’ta (MA1) boy18
suggests the possibility that some of the differentiation of lineages within haplogroup R occurred in
north Eurasia, although we note that we do not have ancient DNA data from more southern regions of
Eurasia. Irrespective of the more ancient origins of this group of lineages, the occurrence of basal
forms of R1a and R1b in eastern European hunter-gatherers provide a geographically plausible source
for these lineages in later Europeans where both lineages are prevalent4,17,19."


This entire area occupied on a non-permanent basis on a following the game as hunter-gathers. From the being between Vargashi and Lebyazhinka the 8.2K year massive climate drop occurred. This event happened closer to the Lebyazhinka end of the migration route just a few SNPs back. Horse riding didn't develop until about the time when L11 was spawned. The domestication of the horse has been dated around 4000 BCE.

Frachetti wrote:

"The archaeological record of western Eurasian steppe does suggest that domesticated sheep/goats and cattle first emerged in relation to the mixed agro-pastoral subsistence with late Sredny Stog and Tripolye cultural material are well dated to Neolithic phases ( c. 5000-4000 BCE) in the territory north of the Black Sea and southern Russia (Rassamakin 1995). Predominantly pastoralist societies are not documented in the western steppe region until the start of the third millennium BCE, when they emerge in relation to the Yamnaya cultural horizon. Given their geographic proximity as well as their ties in material culture, it seems likely that specialized pastoralism amongst the Yamnaya may illustrate one of the first distinctions between agricultural and herding communities in the north-Caspian region around 3000 BCE--..."

Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia
By Michael David Frachetti

This all now seem to fit the time lines I have shown.

MJost

razyn
04-18-2015, 03:34 AM
From about #17, if not before, this thread is much more general, ancient -- and interesting, than its DF13 around the year 1, plus or minus 200 subject line would suggest to the broader public.

MJost
04-18-2015, 03:49 AM
The final route over 21000 years setting the stage for DF13 in my day dreaming.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/52.9%C2%B0N+103.5%C2%B0E/Bulaevo+%D0%91%D1%83%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2/Vargashi,+Kurganskaya+oblast',+Russia/Lebyazhinka,+Samarskaya+oblast',+Russia/Odessa,+Odessa+Oblast,+Ukraine/G%C3%B6rlitz,+Germany/Kromsdorf,+Germany/Quedlinburg,+Germany/Bad+D%C3%BCrkheim,+Germany/@50.3481658,56.046426,4z/data=!4m56!4m55!1m5!1m1!1s0x0:0x0!2m2!1d103.5!2d52 .9!1m5!1m1!1s0x43ad9421467f8901:0xbbee20398c73f7ac !2m2!1d70.4574593!2d54.9066121!1m5!1m1!1s0x43b7076 20c3fce67:0x993e5d3239008913!2m2!1d65.816667!2d55. 370833!1m5!1m1!1s0x416659eb03400703:0x586a416499b0 1478!2m2!1d50.6739055!2d53.6799904!1m5!1m1!1s0x40c 6318a0b864c43:0x129f8fe28cf2176c!2m2!1d30.7233095! 2d46.482526!1m5!1m1!1s0x4708dc31a78fee7f:0x5e9effc 1a38b3b57!2m2!1d14.968707!2d51.1506269!1m5!1m1!1s0 x47a41ba0533457fd:0x4208ec174357940!2m2!1d11.37361 1!2d50.998889!1m5!1m1!1s0x47a5a2d492193369:0x42366 59f8058c70!2m2!1d11.141448!2d51.7920562!1m5!1m1!1s 0x4796376706474cbb:0x4c5ccdd425f79f89!2m2!1d8.1654 232!2d49.4598369!3e2

MJost

MJost
04-18-2015, 03:51 AM
From about #17, if not before, this thread is much more general, ancient -- and interesting, than its DF13 around the year 1, plus or minus 200 subject line would suggest to the broader public.

I know but I feel like their was a need to set the stage for ending up in central and southern Germany. I will try to get to the isle.

MJost

Dubhthach
04-18-2015, 06:47 PM
IMHO, DF41/CTS2501 is primarily Brythonic. Chris McCown summed things up pretty well here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3684-Wales-and-DF41&p=74890&viewfull=1#post74890).

I have slightly different view on this but that perhaps that's due to been A100+ ;)

What we should note is that the the differenation of Insular Celtic into Goidelic and Brythonic is probably quite a late development. Most of the key sound changes that differenate them don't seem to have occurred until after 1st century AD. So for example the River Severn is called "Sabrina" by the Roman's, in Brythonic /s/ underwent sound change to /h/ so as a result the river is called Hafren (Habren in Old Welsh).

A good comparison with is compare the word for "old" in Irish and Welsh:
*sénos (Proto-IE) -> *senos (proto-celtic) -> sen (old Irish) -> sean (modern Irish -- pronounced "shan")
*sénos (Proto-IE) -> *senos (proto-celtic) -> hen (both welsh and Breton)

Likewise /w/ (often writen as w or v) from proto-Celtic underwent seperate sound changes in goidelic (w/v -> f) and Brythonic (w/v -> gw) these don't appear to be evident in the Roman period (going off roman inscriptions of British names and of course "archaic Irish" of Ogham Stones)

So I think it's probably more correct to think of it as a general "insular Celtic" language contact area as oppose to later divisions of Goidelic/Brythonic which there doesn't appear to be any firm evidence of (excluding of course the fact that in Britain we see sharing of q -> p sound change shared with Gaulish) before the Roman conquest of southern Britain.