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danieldgray
04-11-2015, 06:49 AM
Gray, FTDNA Kit #b6655 confirmed positive by FTDNA SNP testing as positive for FGC11986.

seferhabahir
04-11-2015, 11:16 PM
Gray, FTDNA Kit #b6655 confirmed positive by FTDNA SNP testing as positive for FGC11986.

It looks now like FG11986 is quite old and might be a very large part of S9294. Your STR markers have a lot of off-modal values that are not share by others and so you seem quite separated from the rest of the FGC11986 pack. This sort of confirms my belief that FGC11986, S9294, S11556, and Z251 are very old and maybe near the beginning of the spread of L21 and DF13.

danieldgray
04-12-2015, 07:23 AM
It looks now like FG11986 is quite old and might be a very large part of S9294. Your STR markers have a lot of off-modal values that are not share by others and so you seem quite separated from the rest of the FGC11986 pack. This sort of confirms my belief that FGC11986, S9294, S11556, and Z251 are very old and maybe near the beginning of the spread of L21 and DF13.

It would be helpful to find other FGC11986 with similar markers. Unfortunately, there are very few others with similar markers in all of L21, let alone FGC11986. i have noticed a cluster of 393=14 in the Gray Surname project. I have also been in touch with a Patterson descending from Northumberland, UK with very similar markers. I have been encouraging these individuals to test for Z251.

The documentary evidence suggests that my line of Grays is tied to the Gray family that settled in Plymouth and Yarmouth, MA in the 1600s. This family supposedly came from Harwich, England and Chillingham Northumberland. This history may explain a possible tie to a Patterson from Northumberland. This is the Gray family that is said to be closely tied to the Royal family (e.g. Lady Jane Gray Queen of England for 9 days, The Marquis of Dorset, Grays Thurrock, Grays Inn, etc.). The patriarch of this family is said to have been related to William the Conqueror and come to the UK from Normandy France along with with William the Conqueror. The history indicates this family originally descends from Scandanavia.

dt4067
12-01-2015, 10:33 PM
It would be helpful to find other FGC11986 with similar markers. Unfortunately, there are very few others with similar markers in all of L21, let alone FGC11986. i have noticed a cluster of 393=14 in the Gray Surname project. I have also been in touch with a Patterson descending from Northumberland, UK with very similar markers. I have been encouraging these individuals to test for Z251.

The documentary evidence suggests that my line of Grays is tied to the Gray family that settled in Plymouth and Yarmouth, MA in the 1600s. This family supposedly came from Harwich, England and Chillingham Northumberland. This history may explain a possible tie to a Patterson from Northumberland. This is the Gray family that is said to be closely tied to the Royal family (e.g. Lady Jane Gray Queen of England for 9 days, The Marquis of Dorset, Grays Thurrock, Grays Inn, etc.). The patriarch of this family is said to have been related to William the Conqueror and come to the UK from Normandy France along with with William the Conqueror. The history indicates this family originally descends from Scandanavia.

This is a very interesting development. I note that the marker S11556 has a heap of Scottish members. Danish Vikings have spread DNA in Normandy and Scotland and probably elsewhere as well. It will be interesting when the Y DNA from William the Conqueror's relatives is tested. I suspect they will be S11556 as well.

danieldgray
12-03-2015, 05:09 AM
Ytree.net has a new entry for sample that ties back to a Joseph Watty of Cornwall b. 1680 that shares a unique SNP with a sample from a Watt from Fifeshire Scottland. I find it interesting that one of the tribes of Cornwall was known as Belgae who are said to have come from Belgia Gaul. Also interesting that the Cornvii associated with Cornwall share te same name as the Cornvii of Caithness.

dt4067
12-07-2015, 08:15 AM
Thanks Daniel. That makes two persons we know who are Z251 in Cornwall. Watty(e) was a common name around the Meneage Peninsula where my family lived.

GoldenHind
12-12-2015, 08:40 PM
My cousin, representing my maternal grandfather's line, recently tested positive for FGC11986 in the FTDNA L21 pack. The family was in Staffordshire for at least a couple of centuries, but there is a hint they originally may have come from Yorkshire.

danieldgray
12-12-2015, 08:45 PM
The z251 project now includes Gram from Tonder County, Denmark under FGC11986 and Elster from Hattorf Germany under s9294. Joseph Watty's descendants went from Cornwall to Hamburg, Germany, perhaps suggesting a previous connection to a Germanic speaking people.

danieldgray
12-12-2015, 08:51 PM
I noticed your message after I posted mine. What is the surname for your maternal grandfather?

GoldenHind
12-12-2015, 10:53 PM
I noticed your message after I posted mine. What is the surname for your maternal grandfather?

I will respond by PM.

k1enda2y
12-14-2015, 03:01 PM
I have just been identified as FGC11986 on ytree.net - FTDNA 382137. William Day or his father Leonard may be from Wiltshire, England since William was married there in 1761.

Ken Day

seferhabahir
12-14-2015, 05:38 PM
I have just been identified as FGC11986 on ytree.net - FTDNA 382137. William Day or his father Leonard may be from Wiltshire, England since William was married there in 1761.

Ken Day

Welcome to FGC11986...

Now there are 10 testers in this subclade with quite a lot of diversity, so it appears to be a pretty solid, but ancient SNP

danieldgray
12-22-2015, 11:18 PM
Seferhabahir, do you know if any of the other A555 are Jewish? Just curious if there is that additional tie in. Also, there is a lot of online discussion regarding Ashkenazi Levite DNA. I am not up on the various theories related to Jewish DNA nor likely to read all that is out there. Any synopsis you could provide with a tie to FGC11986 might be interesting to anyone who is FGC11986. I assume conversion in either direction is a possible explanation.

danieldgray
12-23-2015, 04:18 AM
http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-ashkenazi-jews-dna-diseases-20140909-story.html

seferhabahir
12-23-2015, 03:19 PM
Seferhabahir, do you know if any of the other A555 are Jewish? Just curious if there is that additional tie in. Also, there is a lot of online discussion regarding Ashkenazi Levite DNA. I am not up on the various theories related to Jewish DNA nor likely to read all that is out there. Any synopsis you could provide with a tie to FGC11986 might be interesting to anyone who is FGC11986. I assume conversion in either direction is a possible explanation.

All men who are positive for A555 are Jewish. It is a completely Jewish marker, and has been found in Jewish men that are both L583+ and L583-. To date A555 has not been found in non-Jews (and probably never will be). Note that SNP L583 is downstream from A555 and is associated with a subclade of A555 where all people in that subclade have a Levite tradition, but this group is not related to the R1a Levite group that is discussed online. More than half of Ashkenazi Levites are R1a, but there are other haplogroups that are Ashkenazi Levite, L583 being one of them.

FGC11986 is not a Jewish marker, and has been found in both Jewish and non-Jewish men, being much older (perhaps more than 3500 years old). While A555 is one of the SNPs most likely associated with the small population of Jews 600-800 years ago that existed in Europe, it is difficult to assign an age to A555. A555 can be used as an identifier for the so called Baltic Cluster, and is associated with a highly unique set of STRs only found in Jews. L583 can be used as an identifier for the Levite part of A555.

Because of the uniqueness of the STR markers belonging to those who we know are A555, and the number of other SNPs that are also on this Jewish lineage, A555 may be much older than 1000 years ago and possibly a remnant of the origination of the Jewish line within FGC11986. There are a lot of other SNPs associated with the Jewish line of FGC11986, but I am using A555 for now. We don't know the hierarchy of the uniquely Jewish SNPs under FGC11986. There are only three people with A555 that have tested Big Y, but my guess is that any Baltic Cluster member would test positive for A555.

In summary, someone who is FG11986 but not having those unique STR markers found in the A555 men (more accurately the Baltic Cluster men) has been separated from the A555 Jewish subclade probably before Jewish history began. Regarding FGC11986 and A555 and the rest of the data I see, it seems impossible that there was a recent conversion event (either into or out of Judaism). The TMRCA of all the A555 testers might be a man living only 800 years ago (leading some to mistakenly assume a European conversion event), but the origins of the Jewish lineage associated with A555 goes back much farther in time, possibly to the beginnings of the religion.

danieldgray
12-23-2015, 05:47 PM
Very helpful. Thanks. In the article I posted above they reference Jewish DNA tied to some Flemish population. As I have posted elsewhere, FGC11986 seems to have historic ties to the Jutland Peninsula. What are your thoughts on any link between the Flemish and Jewish DNA? Do you know if they are referencing A555 or some other line?

seferhabahir
12-23-2015, 10:47 PM
Very helpful. Thanks. In the article I posted above they reference Jewish DNA tied to some Flemish population. As I have posted elsewhere, FGC11986 seems to have historic ties to the Jutland Peninsula. What are your thoughts on any link between the Flemish and Jewish DNA? Do you know if they are referencing A555 or some other line?

I am familiar with the study referenced in the article. Note that they are comparing entire genomic sequences, not Y-DNA. Many studies have pointed out that Ashkenazi Jews have a mix of Middle Eastern and European DNA, but it is usually attributed to Middle Eastern Jews coming to Europe and marrying women from within the local community. In the case of FGC11986 and A555, it is pretty clear that A555 men aren't really related to European FGC11986 men except for the fact that they share an ancient Y-DNA SNP from 3500-4000 years ago. It is possible that FGC11986 was present (or came about) in Northern Europe, but the Jewish lineage that contains A555 and other uniquely Jewish SNPs broke off and went somewhere else that I believe was pretty far away from places like Jutland. Trying to link the FGC11986 Jewish cluster men to Northern European non-Jewish FGC11986 men in recent times is not really supported by the SNP evidence. The Jewish FGC11986 ended up in Eastern Europe and the Baltic in the same way other Jewish probably did - eastward migration from France and Germany as the smallish Ashkenazi population expanded.

danieldgray
12-31-2015, 06:45 AM
There is a recent addition to ytree.net that falls under A555 and all of the other A555
affiliated SNPs named Smith. Do you have any info on them? In particular, are they also Jewish?

seferhabahir
12-31-2015, 09:17 PM
There is a recent addition to ytree.net that falls under A555 and all of the other A555
affiliated SNPs named Smith. Do you have any info on them? In particular, are they also Jewish?

Yes, definitely known to be Ashkenazi (ancestor is from Lithuania) but is not L583 (Levite). See my other post here...

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4025-Z251-Tree-Structure&p=130191&viewfull=1#post130191

seferhabahir
12-31-2015, 09:32 PM
For what is worth, there appears to be a very strong correlation within the A555 subclade for L583+ coupled with DYS444=12 and known Levite traditions, and for L583- coupled with DYS444=13 and non-Levite traditions. I have speculated elsewhere that the whole A555 line could be Levite, but only the L583+ kept the tradition going into modern times, or else someone in the L583+ line a while back decided to make his son(s) Levite(s) which is easier to get away with than the impossibility of making one's sons Kohanim if the father was not.

seferhabahir
12-31-2015, 09:39 PM
There is a recent addition to ytree.net that falls under A555 and all of the other A555
affiliated SNPs named Smith. Do you have any info on them? In particular, are they also Jewish?

I just reread your post. If you are asking about the other SNPs listed with A555 (and not the persons), then the answer to that is also YES, all the SNPs in the block that contains A555 are found only in Jewish testers. That is why I maintain that the A555 line under FGC11986 is ancient and pretty much unrelated to non-Jewish FGC11986.

danieldgray
01-01-2016, 05:27 PM
Thanks. I was just curious if the individual who submitted the A555+ sample has a family history that is known to be Jewish. Smith is a more traditional English surname than the other A555+ which surnames sound more Baltic.