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View Full Version : Two new statue-stele in Val Venosta, Italy



Jean M
04-16-2015, 07:15 PM
http://www.meteoweb.eu/2015/04/archeologia-scoperti-due-menhir-in-val-venosta-risalgono-al-3000-a-c-foto/428638/ [Photos]
http://altoadige.gelocal.it/tempo-libero/2015/04/11/news/in-val-venosta-trovati-due-menhir-dell-eta-del-rame-1.11218786
http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/005499.html [English]

Two carved menhirs were discovered last year in Val Venosta, dating back to 3000 BC. Two Copper Age anthropomorphic stele, discovered last year during some archaeological work in Val Venosta, were presented to the press in South Tyrol on 11 April. These are 'stone statues' of Lasa marble, found at Giardineria Schöpf Vezzano. They are highly stylized anthropomorphic figures, in part larger than life. They represent a man and a woman. The male has a belt and daggers, while the female is characterized by breasts, and wears a shawl and a long robe.

The two new discoveries are being added to the other 20 already known in the region (13 from South Tyrol and 9 from Trentino).

Heber
04-20-2015, 09:28 AM
http://www.meteoweb.eu/2015/04/archeologia-scoperti-due-menhir-in-val-venosta-risalgono-al-3000-a-c-foto/428638/ [Photos]
http://altoadige.gelocal.it/tempo-libero/2015/04/11/news/in-val-venosta-trovati-due-menhir-dell-eta-del-rame-1.11218786
http://www.stonepages.com/news/archives/005499.html [English]

Two carved menhirs were discovered last year in Val Venosta, dating back to 3000 BC. Two Copper Age anthropomorphic stele, discovered last year during some archaeological work in Val Venosta, were presented to the press in South Tyrol on 11 April. These are 'stone statues' of Lasa marble, found at Giardineria Schöpf Vezzano. They are highly stylized anthropomorphic figures, in part larger than life. They represent a man and a woman. The male has a belt and daggers, while the female is characterized by breasts, and wears a shawl and a long robe.

The two new discoveries are being added to the other 20 already known in the region (13 from South Tyrol and 9 from Trentino).

I have updated my map of Stelae. There is a nice cluster forming around the general area of Milan (Mediolanum) which was a Celtic and Bell Beaker stronghold and on the pathway from the Steppes to Iberia.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/

vettor
04-20-2015, 10:37 AM
I have updated my map of Stelae. There is a nice cluster forming around the general area of Milan (Mediolanum) which was a Celtic and Bell Beaker stronghold and on the pathway from the Steppes to Iberia.

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/


the years do not match historical fact, the Insubres created Milan in the 4th century BC and prior to this the lands, of lombardy where under the Etruscans .from ~800BC

the marker around the Lake is near Verona , it is lake Garda and north of this marker lived exclusively the very many Raetian tribes. Raetian tribes where not celts.

maybe it was either remendello or polada cultures

glentane
04-20-2015, 02:53 PM
Don't fancy the lady one much. I wish they were capable of taking a decently-lit photo, or subbing a pen illustration. Resembles nothing so much as glacial striae, on a subsequently detached lump of bedrock. This same page carries a somewhat breathless article (http://www.meteoweb.eu/2015/02/siberia-scoperto-manufatto-forma-disco-volante-foto-video/386543/) mentioning flying saucers and mammoths, while showing what to my less-than-expert eyes looks like some sort of sedimentary concretion of the sort that plagued the arguments of early palaeontologists.
http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/36330-an-amateur-concretion-question/?view=findpost&p=400945

The man stele looks legit, but again, horrible picture skills. I suppose we should simply be thankful it didn't end up as road-metal or the like.

Heber
04-20-2015, 10:04 PM
the years do not match historical fact, the Insubres created Milan in the 4th century BC and prior to this the lands, of lombardy where under the Etruscans .from ~800BC

the marker around the Lake is near Verona , it is lake Garda and north of this marker lived exclusively the very many Raetian tribes. Raetian tribes where not celts.

maybe it was either remendello or polada cultures

If you look at the stelae in the Alpine region:
4 Adige Valley. 5 Valcamonica/Valtellina. 6 Val d'Aosta/Sion. 7 Lunigiana.

4403

they appear to cluster around a central communications axe which is now Milan.

4404

Many of the sites were bronze age associated with Bell Beaker culture

4405

Several are also associated with later Celtic tribes including
Sion - Seduni
Aosta - Salassi
Milan - Isrubres
Lunigiana - Celto-Ligurians??

https://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/the-stelae-people/

I can imagine these routes were used by earlier Bell Beakers and later Celts.

glentane
04-20-2015, 10:41 PM
Oh hang about, what's that on the ("her") right waist (i.e. our left, at the break in the slab)?
One of those "garland"-ish gathered belts?
The ridging of the main figure now looks more like fracturing across a plane of slightly metamorphosed ripple-marks after a closer squint. I wouldn't be too upset about the thing being what to the depositors resembled a miraculous manifestation of some anthropo- (or is that gyno-?) morphic entity in the native rock, reworked with various cultural signifiers to emphasise its significance. Still a chunk of natural, in my ever-shifting opinion.

vettor
04-20-2015, 11:11 PM
If you look at the stelae in the Alpine region:
4 Adige Valley. 5 Valcamonica/Valtellina. 6 Val d'Aosta/Sion. 7 Lunigiana.

4403


is there confusion between your number 6, which is a region of Italy next to France and Switzerland and val venosta in alto-adige near Austria?

The name Vinschgau (Ital: Val Venosta) is derived from the Rhaetian Venostes tribe,

your #5 is in Swiss land plus towns of sondrio plus bergamo areas

your number 7, is the area of Carrara-Massa , a disputed area between ligurian and tuscan people over many many centuries....IIRC massa has a completely very very old dialect

glentane
04-21-2015, 01:44 PM
Oh hang about, what's that on the ("her") right waist (i.e. our left, at the break in the slab)?
One of those "garland"-ish gathered belts?

http://www.meteoweb.eu/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/stele-1-val-venosta.jpg
Seems to be a regional thing. Like these. Remedello itself, and others. Valcamonica.
http://www.lasamarmo.it/uploads/pics/3300vC_2200vC_01.jpghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxpxugKhRIbUnrAUGTGiNW_ur5cxFQQ Ym5B7HVdSiKYbJViE9Z_whttp://home.swipnet.se/cat-shaman/03hkist2-filer/mor.JPGhttp://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/96506200-italy-trentino-alto-adige-region-lagundo-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=NYF3Nn%2faZF%2fUyUCxhwuZ794f2TmKeoZz7jTklOX2V9q6 ySzHGkhv2mCLiaf0kIKpqOdDDBs79xGkuXpvBZDEfQ%3d%3d

So probably not likely a lady. More like somebody (a bloke) wearing one of those "Oetzi" style grass capes?

See what I mean about bedrock?

http://altoadige.gelocal.it/polopoly_fs/1.11209777!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/gallery_978/image.jpg

glentane
04-21-2015, 02:01 PM
... and am I getting carried away now? In the first photo linked above I think I can see a part of a dagger-pommel (3 rivets, pointing right) above where its belly-button ought to be, and maybe another above it at about 11 o'clock, pointing down to the first (2 rivets left, or maybe in total).


Un altro elemento molto importante per il costume dell’epoca deve essere stato il cinturone. In Trentino Alto Adige particolarmente diffuso è il cinturone a festoni, talvolta presenti anche sulle statue stele della Valtellina e che sembra essere una prerogativa maschile.http://enio1948.tripod.com/UominidiPietra/uomini4.htm
(sorry about that, I'm not good enough to translate it without making a right horlicks of it, but you get the idea?)

vettor
04-21-2015, 06:55 PM
... and am I getting carried away now? In the first photo linked above I think I can see a part of a dagger-pommel (3 rivets, pointing right) above where its belly-button ought to be, and maybe another above it at about 11 o'clock, pointing down to the first (2 rivets left, or maybe in total).

http://enio1948.tripod.com/UominidiPietra/uomini4.htm
(sorry about that, I'm not good enough to translate it without making a right horlicks of it, but you get the idea?)

it basically states that only men wore the dagger around the neck and this custom ranged in the areas of valtellina to val venosta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valtellina#/media/File:Valtellina_mappa.png
Val Venosta is NE direction from Bormio on the map ...............basically heading in the direction to innsbruck

glentane
04-22-2015, 05:56 PM
... and of course I've got them mixed up. The tall one was a man all along, and the short (broken and heavily damaged) one is the lady. They'd already spotted the belt and daggers. As you were, people.