PDA

View Full Version : FGC3213



Reith
04-17-2015, 02:11 PM
So I have my results and I am FGC3213. Hopefully this will help me to figure out some clues for my deep ancestry.

Tests Taken

L21+, P312+, DF13+, DF21+, FGC3213+, Z246-, L876-, DF41-, L144-, L159-, L193-, P314-, P66-, U106-, L226-, L96-, M222-, M37-

Both my parent's families come from North Germany (Lower Saxony [Kingdom of Hanover] and Prussia) and I have some Great Grandparents from Scandinavia. This is pretty clear when I look at my autosomal DNA that I seem to be mostly Germanic, but I know I have some Celtic too.

My K13
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 44.74
2 Baltic 30.99
3 West_Med 10.43
4 East_Med 6.31
5 West_Asian 4.44
6 South_Asian 1.23
7 Siberian 0.81
8 Oceanian 0.69
9 Red_Sea 0.36

Single Population Sharing:

# Population Distance
1 North_German 4.97
2 Swedish 5.63
3 Danish 6.64
4 North_Dutch 7.16
5 Norwegian 7.35
6 North_Swedish 7.54
7 East_German 7.75
8 Austrian 8.28
9 Orcadian 9.08
10 West_German 9.15

I know Rory of the DF21 project says that I possibly have some Welsh matches, but I know there was not much Welsh immigration to Germany. My last name is Wright, which was anglicized from Reith after my Great Great Grandfather changed it after he fought in the Civil War. It was pronounced as Rite, in German for there is no -th sound. Reith in German is usually means "short for Reither" as in horseback Rider (Hey he was in the Cavalry :)), close to Ritter or a "forest clearing." Now this Frederick Reith named his sons such as Ulrich, Johann and Carl. The census also lists him speaking German at home. So I am pretty sure this guy was from Germany.436443654366

Now I know there is a Scottish surname of Reith, and it would be very easy to say my Y line was a Scot (which I think would be kinda cool). During the Northern Crusades, many a Scottish noble campaigned in Northern Germany. Then there was a large migration of Scottish merchants in the 1500-1600s and then an even larger of influx of Scots (50,000)during the 30 Years War.

Among these, the fate of the Scottish princess Elizabeth of Bohemia (daughter of King James VI & I) proved to be a key concern. Up to 50,000 Scottish troops[2] arrived on the continent having been levied on warrants issued by the Privy Council and countersigned by their king, usually at periods corresponding to the participation of a particular ally in a campaign against the Habsburgs. They mostly served initially in established Scottish brigades in the Dutch Republic and Sweden which had existed before 1618. Later, specially commissioned army groups were also created in Denmark-Norway and France in order to facilitate further Scottish participation. Some fought for better prospects, some for kin loyalty, not a few for dynastic and confessional considerations. A few, the minority, were plain mercenaries. Although Scots participated from the start of the war until the end, formal participation by the nation was limited. Scotland formally declared war on Spain (1625-1630) and France (1627-1629), but for the most part, Scots engaged in foreign service with consent from their monarch and under warrants issued by the Privy Council but in armies commanded by their European allies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland_and_the_Thirty_Years%27_War

Do you think I should focus on that possibility? Or can anyone tell if my DF21 seems to be "old" as in a Bell Beaker/Indo-European/Proto-Celtic/Celtic line that stayed in the area that was once inhabited by the Celts (Belgae? Teutons? Cimbri? etc) prior to Germanic Migrations?



The linguistic affinities of the Teutones are a matter of dispute amongst historians. Their name is Celtic in form and many writers believe that the Teutones really were Celts, perhaps stemming from a branch of the Helvetii;[4] however, a people of this name are mentioned by the early traveller, Pytheas, as inhabitants of the northern ocean coasts. Strabo and Marcus Velleius Paterculus, moreover, classify them as Germanic peoples, and this is perhaps a more probable view,[4] although the distinction between Celts and Teutones,[which?][4] is not clearly realized by some earlier historians.[clarification needed][4] If the Teutones really came from the same quarter as the Cimbri, it is possible that their name may have been preserved in the Thyland or Thythsyssel regions, found in the far north-west of Jutland.[4]

The Cimbri are depicted as ferocious warriors who did not fear death. The host was followed by women and children on carts. Aged women, priestesses, dressed in white sacrificed the prisoners of war and sprinkled their blood, the nature of which allowed them to see what was to come.

If the Cimbri did in fact come from Jutland, evidence that they practised ritualistic sacrifice may be found in the Haraldskær Woman discovered in Jutland in the year 1835. Noosemarks and skin piercing were evident and she had been thrown into a bog rather than buried or cremated. Furthermore, the Gundestrup cauldron, found in Himmerland, may be a sacrificial vessel like the one described in Strabo's text. The work itself was of Thracian origin.


Ancient sources such as Caesar are unclear about the things used to define ethnicity today. He describes the Belgae as both Celtic (or at least Gaulish) and Germanic (at least some of them, and at least by descent). Strabo stated that the differences between the Celts (Gauls) and Belgae, in countenance, language, politics and way of life was a small one, unlike the difference between the Aquitanians and Celts.[9] On the other hand it has been proposed that there could have been more than one language within the region, and also possibly differences between the language of the elite and the rest of the population. Many modern scholars believe that the Belgae were a firmly Celtic-speaking group.[10][11][12][13] However, at least part of the Belgae may also have had significant genetic, cultural and historical connections to peoples east of the Rhine, including Germanic peoples, judging from archaeological, placename, and textual evidence.[14][15] It has also been argued based on placename studies that the older language of the area, though apparently Indo-European, was not Celtic (see Nordwestblock) and that Celtic, though influential amongst the elite, might never have been the main language of the part of the Belgic area north of the Ardennes.[16][17]

Thank you for all your help to date,

Christian

oneillabu
04-17-2015, 07:12 PM
I had already included you in the FGC3213 section of my database, here are some ancient Irish surnames you match

80166 Sullivan, distance from Reith at 111 markers is 20
318218 Driscol distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
10119 McCarthy distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
171553 Hackett distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
241486 Keenan distance from Reith at 111 markers is 24
109330 Kelly distance from Reith at 111 markers is 25

This means that your origin is Irish from the Corca Laidhe/Muscraige region of the West of Ireland, if you look at the GD between yourself and the Little Scottish FGC3213 Cluster then you will see that it increases into the mid 30's (distance to 12461 Hind is 35) so there is no suggestion of a continental origin for FGC3213 to be found here.

The Driscol surname is associated with the Dal Fiatach who were related to the Dal Riada and this is also reflected in my own L720 with a Driscol from Cork having the same L720 signature as the my ancient Scottish matches from 1500 years ago which is reflected in the GD of around 20 at 111 markers between your matching Driscol and also in my ancient Scottish matches which are also in this range. All this suggests that the Dal Riada migration to Scotland was DF21 and consisted of its various differant clades and that DF21 is Uladh in origin. If you look at the GD between two FGC3213 Driscol's (318218 and 21275) you find that the distance is also 22 which gives the same time frame of around 1500 years ago.

These are not coincidences, some of the Irish surnames above are Eoghnacht in origin and this reflects the eventual superiority gained by the Leinster Eoghnacht which is primarily South Irish in origin and a late arrival in Ireland, the Corca Laidhe became nothing more that Vassels to the Eoghnacht hence the DNA mix of DF21 and South Irish with Eoghnacht surnames.

Reith
04-17-2015, 07:18 PM
Thank you for your reply. To sum up, it looks like my Y ancestor was Irish?

You obviously know a lot on this subject, but I thought Irish was ruled out according this post:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?170-DF21-%28L21-gt-DF13-gt-DF21%29-and-Subclades-%28DF5-S191-P314-2-S190-etc%29/page11

That Gent there states that I do not cluster with the Irish and then recently Rory says I have some Welsh matches.

Just a little confused ...

oneillabu
04-17-2015, 07:33 PM
You had not tested positive for FGC3213 when this post was made, this FGC3213+ result is a game changer

Reith
04-17-2015, 07:37 PM
OK, thats cool....

I was just reading about Irish families that I have no idea to pronounce :)

Reith
04-17-2015, 08:00 PM
I had already included you in the FGC3213 section of my database, here are some ancient Irish surnames you match

80166 Sullivan, distance from Reith at 111 markers is 20
318218 Driscol distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
10119 McCarthy distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
171553 Hackett distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
241486 Keenan distance from Reith at 111 markers is 24
109330 Kelly distance from Reith at 111 markers is 25

This means that your origin is Irish from the Corca Laidhe/Muscraige region of the West of Ireland, if you look at the GD between yourself and the Little Scottish FGC3213 Cluster then you will see that it increases into the mid 30's (distance to 12461 Hind is 35) so there is no suggestion of a continental origin for FGC3213 to be found here.

The Driscol surname is associated with the Dal Fiatach who were related to the Dal Riada and this is also reflected in my own L720 with a Driscol from Cork having the same L720 signature as the my ancient Scottish matches from 1500 years ago which is reflected in the GD of around 20 at 111 markers between your matching Driscol and also in my ancient Scottish matches which are also in this range. All this suggests that the Dal Riada migration to Scotland was DF21 and consisted of its various differant clades and that DF21 is Uladh in origin. If you look at the GD between two FGC3213 Driscol's (318218 and 21275) you find that the distance is also 22 which gives the same time frame of around 1500 years ago.

These are not coincidences, some of the Irish surnames above are Eoghnacht in origin and this reflects the eventual superiority gained by the Leinster Eoghnacht which is primarily South Irish in origin and a late arrival in Ireland, the Corca Laidhe became nothing more that Vassels to the Eoghnacht hence the DNA mix of DF21 and South Irish with Eoghnacht surnames.

All of those clans were Gaels right?

oneillabu
04-17-2015, 08:03 PM
Yes, they would be Goidelic speaking like all ancient Irish

Reith
04-17-2015, 08:05 PM
Cool, Gaels were badasses...B)

Reith
04-17-2015, 08:06 PM
Now how to find out a Gael wound up in the Kindom of Hanover by the late 1700s to become German speakers...

Wild Goose?

oneillabu
04-17-2015, 08:12 PM
There my friend is a mystery only you can solve, stick an Irish Tri-colour in your flag selections to reflect membership of the bad-ass club but remember that the Druids were also Brythonic Celts and divined the future from the entrails of their enemies so our Celtic cousins from Britain are not to be trifled with either

Reith
04-23-2015, 07:24 PM
I had already included you in the FGC3213 section of my database, here are some ancient Irish surnames you match

80166 Sullivan, distance from Reith at 111 markers is 20
318218 Driscol distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
10119 McCarthy distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
171553 Hackett distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
241486 Keenan distance from Reith at 111 markers is 24
109330 Kelly distance from Reith at 111 markers is 25

This means that your origin is Irish from the Corca Laidhe/Muscraige region of the West of Ireland, if you look at the GD between yourself and the Little Scottish FGC3213 Cluster then you will see that it increases into the mid 30's (distance to 12461 Hind is 35) so there is no suggestion of a continental origin for FGC3213 to be found here.

The Driscol surname is associated with the Dal Fiatach who were related to the Dal Riada and this is also reflected in my own L720 with a Driscol from Cork having the same L720 signature as the my ancient Scottish matches from 1500 years ago which is reflected in the GD of around 20 at 111 markers between your matching Driscol and also in my ancient Scottish matches which are also in this range. All this suggests that the Dal Riada migration to Scotland was DF21 and consisted of its various differant clades and that DF21 is Uladh in origin. If you look at the GD between two FGC3213 Driscol's (318218 and 21275) you find that the distance is also 22 which gives the same time frame of around 1500 years ago.

These are not coincidences, some of the Irish surnames above are Eoghnacht in origin and this reflects the eventual superiority gained by the Leinster Eoghnacht which is primarily South Irish in origin and a late arrival in Ireland, the Corca Laidhe became nothing more that Vassels to the Eoghnacht hence the DNA mix of DF21 and South Irish with Eoghnacht surnames.

Does this mean I am closer to Dal Fiatach or Eoghnact?

McCarthygen
10-16-2015, 11:30 AM
Mr Reith,

I am going to include you on the P314 / McCarthy Group B Tree at http://tinyurl.com/McCarthyScrapbook. However, I would like to know if you have taken any SNP tests since FGC3213. Your 13 at DYS 388 is a conundrum, as you will see from the current (05 Oct 2015) tree that I would have expected it to be 12. In particular I would recommend an NGS tests such as Big Y, but most certainly you should test FGC18205 and Z16534 at YSeq as both have proven positive in kit N28650 (MDKA Conrardy) and I believe there is a reasonable chance you will test positive for at least one. I do not consider this location on the tree as necessarily Irish or Welsh but am open to arguments.

Nigel McC

Reith
10-16-2015, 08:23 PM
Mr Reith,

I am going to include you on the P314 / McCarthy Group B Tree at http://tinyurl.com/McCarthyScrapbook. However, I would like to know if you have taken any SNP tests since FGC3213. Your 13 at DYS 388 is a conundrum, as you will see from the current (05 Oct 2015) tree that I would have expected it to be 12. In particular I would recommend an NGS tests such as Big Y, but most certainly you should test FGC18205 and Z16534 at YSeq as both have proven positive in kit N28650 (MDKA Conrardy) and I believe there is a reasonable chance you will test positive for at least one. I do not consider this location on the tree as necessarily Irish or Welsh but am open to arguments.

Nigel McC

Thank you for your response. My last test was FGC3213 and I am really at a loss for what to test next unless I spend a few hundred dollars.

Reith
10-16-2015, 08:28 PM
So, of the P314.2+ guys, I am closest to to the Norwegian and French guy?

Mutations at DYS 388 when value is 11, 12 or 13 are very rare. An alternative tree configuration has no back mutation here for N28650 Conrardy and N5924 Måland, but an independent 12>13 mutation for 208773 Reith. Conrardy and Måland would then branch off much further up the tree and share an independent 12>13 mutation at DYS 617

JRW
10-21-2015, 05:46 PM
Mr Reith,

I am going to include you on the P314 / McCarthy Group B Tree at http://tinyurl.com/McCarthyScrapbook. However, I would like to know if you have taken any SNP tests since FGC3213. Your 13 at DYS 388 is a conundrum, as you will see from the current (05 Oct 2015) tree that I would have expected it to be 12. In particular I would recommend an NGS tests such as Big Y, but most certainly you should test FGC18205 and Z16534 at YSeq as both have proven positive in kit N28650 (MDKA Conrardy) and I believe there is a reasonable chance you will test positive for at least one. I do not consider this location on the tree as necessarily Irish or Welsh but am open to arguments.

Nigel McC

Nigel,

Why are you including Christian in your P314 group if he has tested to be P314-? I think your observation that his DYS388 allele of 13 poses "a conundrum" is consistent with his P314- SNP test result. Is there any evidence to suggest the P314- result is in error?

I think you were spot-on recommending Christian to take an NGS test. All evidence suggests that his line likely represents a series of unidentified SNPs under FGC3213. See post #24 under the "Welsh and DF21" thread.

Jim

McCarthygen
10-22-2015, 10:28 AM
Jim,
Jim,

We anticipate renaming the R-P314 Haplogroup Project in a manner that will be inclusive of Christian Reith's haplotype, if indeed it places him as postulated on the latest 'Group B' tree at http://tinyurl.com/McCarthyScrapbook. This shows him having 8 out of the 13 STR mutations seen as otherwise common to the stem of the tree. There is therefore a reasonable chance he will test positive for at least one of FGC18205 and Z16534 but the surest way to determine whether he is correctly placed on this tree is an NGS test, which will also look at all the other SNPs on this stem.

Nigel

kevinduffy
10-22-2015, 10:34 PM
I had already included you in the FGC3213 section of my database, here are some ancient Irish surnames you match

80166 Sullivan, distance from Reith at 111 markers is 20
318218 Driscol distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
10119 McCarthy distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
171553 Hackett distance from Reith at 111 markers is 22
241486 Keenan distance from Reith at 111 markers is 24
109330 Kelly distance from Reith at 111 markers is 25

This means that your origin is Irish from the Corca Laidhe/Muscraige region of the West of Ireland, if you look at the GD between yourself and the Little Scottish FGC3213 Cluster then you will see that it increases into the mid 30's (distance to 12461 Hind is 35) so there is no suggestion of a continental origin for FGC3213 to be found here.

The Driscol surname is associated with the Dal Fiatach who were related to the Dal Riada and this is also reflected in my own L720 with a Driscol from Cork having the same L720 signature as the my ancient Scottish matches from 1500 years ago which is reflected in the GD of around 20 at 111 markers between your matching Driscol and also in my ancient Scottish matches which are also in this range. All this suggests that the Dal Riada migration to Scotland was DF21 and consisted of its various differant clades and that DF21 is Uladh in origin. If you look at the GD between two FGC3213 Driscol's (318218 and 21275) you find that the distance is also 22 which gives the same time frame of around 1500 years ago.

These are not coincidences, some of the Irish surnames above are Eoghnacht in origin and this reflects the eventual superiority gained by the Leinster Eoghnacht which is primarily South Irish in origin and a late arrival in Ireland, the Corca Laidhe became nothing more that Vassels to the Eoghnacht hence the DNA mix of DF21 and South Irish with Eoghnacht surnames.

Aren't those distances kind of large? It is quite possible that he hasn't shared a common male ancestor with any of these names in maybe thousands of years.

Reith
10-23-2015, 05:57 PM
So, of the P314.2+ guys, I am closest to to the Norwegian and French guy?

Mutations at DYS 388 when value is 11, 12 or 13 are very rare. An alternative tree configuration has no back mutation here for N28650 Conrardy and N5924 Måland, but an independent 12>13 mutation for 208773 Reith. Conrardy and Måland would then branch off much further up the tree and share an independent 12>13 mutation at DYS 617

Not sure if this is a correct assumption, but as I asked before, am I closer to these continentals? Would kind of make sense

MacUalraig
10-23-2015, 06:24 PM
Not sure if this is a correct assumption, but as I asked before, am I closer to these continentals? Would kind of make sense

An interesting question to me as I'm currently testing a continental DF21 guy who I originally thought was part of the Scottish trade in the Baltic. But trees aren't or shouldn't be build from STRs so I would encourage you to proceed with further SNP exploration and meanwhile not make assumptions about whether your line was ever in the Isles. Reith as a Scottish name as you probably know clusters around Aberdeenshire which had a lot of involvement in Baltic trade. There is another Kennedy line (non-DF21) that I theorise came directly up from Germany to Aberdeen then changed their name spelling to Kennedy. I'll be interested to see exactly where you end up.

Reith
10-23-2015, 06:30 PM
I wish I was just Scottish at this point, would have been neat and tidy. I even researched mercenaries during the 30 years war, fighting for the Protestants, unfortunately I cluster even further away from Scots than Irish and Welsh.

MacUalraig
10-23-2015, 09:25 PM
I wish I was just Scottish at this point, would have been neat and tidy. I even researched mercenaries during the 30 years war, fighting for the Protestants, unfortunately I cluster even further away from Scots than Irish and Welsh.

Right now your position in the tree hasn't been determined so I would consider it premature to talk about who you 'cluster' with. STRs are not always a good guide to relatedness whereas SNPs prove it. You have only tested one of several possible sub-branches of FGC3213 and these are probably aeons old. Really your choice boils down to whether you splash out/save up a bit and knock it on the head with an NGS test or spread the cost and do it one SNP at a time. The latter course can take flipping ages though!

McCarthygen
10-24-2015, 12:07 PM
MacUalraig has said "But trees aren't or shouldn't be build from STRs". As I state clearly on the referenced tree "WHERE CONFIGURATIONS ARE NOT CONFIRMED BY SNP TESTING, DIFFERENT PERMUTATIONS ARE POSSIBLE FROM THE TIME OF FORMATION OF THE ANCESTRAL HAPLOTYPE COMMON TO ALL PARTICIPANTS ON THE Z16534 STEM. THE RELIABILITY CAN ONLY BE IMPROVED BY MORE PARTICIPANTS TESTING STRs TO 111 MARKERS AND NGS TESTING, IDENTIFYING SNPs WHICH GIVE FIRM DEFINITION TO THE BRANCHES AND TWIGS (SUBCLADES) OF THE TREE.

So I fully agree SNP testing is required to confirm any postulated structure built on STRs. But I contest the "shouldn't be built...". This tree was constructed about four years ago when we had only SNPs P314 and L362 and very few adjustments (other than fleshing out deep subclade details) have had to be made since we have had the explosion of SNPs. Similar success was achieved with the Irish Type II tree (CTS4466) built on the same lines. Yes we have been caught out in a few areas (usually where testing stopped short of 111 markers) but SNP testing has largely confirmed the basic structure of that STR-based tree too. Such trees also very often allow for a cheaper way of determining deep clade terminal SNPs. Many participants in panel testing could have saved considerable sums by testing individual SNPs based on NGS and STR testing by others. Without the postulated tree built largely on STR data we would have had a blank piece of paper until 2014.

The one area of the Z16534 / P314 tree always acknowledged as subject to significant change was that in which the European mainland participants sit (Reith, Conrardy and Maland). I also had 11217 Basile there but in the absence of appropraite SNP testing have removed him for the time being: his haplotype suggests any of Z16534, L513 or CTS3386 are possibilities). I fully agree (and always have done) that deep SNP testing is required to properly define their positions on this tree, and until we have Big Y or FGC Elite tests for these, their locations on the tree will be subject to change, although I do believe that either the present configuration or the alternative one suggested in Note 11 will prevail.

Oneillabu suggests using GDs as a discussion point for determining Christian Reith's most likely origins. I respectfully suggest a carefully constructed tree is a much more valuable way of approaching this task. I see nothing in Christian's haplotype to suggest he would test positive for L362 (though nothing is certain without a test!). Oneillabu lists some "some ancient Irish surnames" which Christian "matches", but almost every name on the referenced tree is an equal contender. What about Chisholm, Eubanks (originally thought to be English, but with a clear Scottish Chisholm connection on the tree), McAllister, Martin (which could derive in many lands but seems to share Keenan ancestry here)?

If you study the concentrations of surnames on the tree you will see that those who are L362 +ve (Group 2a) are almost entirely Munster-based. There is some evidence that some of the very few non-Munster names here derive from Irish slavery in the Caribbean, and of course NPEs are always an all-too-easy explanation for any that don't quite fit! However L362 has many equivalents at present so even this stem could have started out elsewhere. The other major branch (Group 4) includes some Munster subgroups but also a significant Scottish contingent. We cannot say, at this stage, in which direction any migration between the two occurred, or, of course, where the post-FGC3213 progenitor of both major branches lived (Munster, Scotland, elsewhere in Ireland or mainland Europe). Population movement arguments can be proffered to support any theory.

So my recommendation has to remain: an NGS test. Let's properly define the early stages of development of this tree then we can focus on later subclades.

Nigel McC

Reith
12-02-2015, 07:07 PM
Mr Reith,

I am going to include you on the P314 / McCarthy Group B Tree at http://tinyurl.com/McCarthyScrapbook. However, I would like to know if you have taken any SNP tests since FGC3213. Your 13 at DYS 388 is a conundrum, as you will see from the current (05 Oct 2015) tree that I would have expected it to be 12. In particular I would recommend an NGS tests such as Big Y, but most certainly you should test FGC18205 and Z16534 at YSeq as both have proven positive in kit N28650 (MDKA Conrardy) and I believe there is a reasonable chance you will test positive for at least one. I do not consider this location on the tree as necessarily Irish or Welsh but am open to arguments.

Nigel McC


Nigel, I just ordered both tests. Let us see what happens, but every time I pay for a test, regardless I find no close relatives for my Y haplogroup.

McCarthygen
12-03-2015, 11:14 AM
Mr Reith,

Unfortunately I cannot promise you will find close relatives as a consequence of ordering these two SNPs, but if either or both are positive we will have at least removed any doubt about your position on the phylogenetic tree and I would regard that as a big step forward. It would most likely be through STR testing that we eventually find your relatives, however close, but knowing your position on the DF21 tree will be a great help in assessing suspects.

Nigel

Reith
12-03-2015, 05:14 PM
Thand you Nigel

McCarthygen
12-21-2015, 10:45 PM
Mr Reith,

Any news on your FGC18205 and Z16534 tests yet? If you have not already, please join YSeq Group ID 32. We hope you will also join the P314 Haplogroup Project. Yes, I know you are negative for P314 but we are going to rename the project to be sure you feel included and belong somewhere!! If you prove positive for just one of these two SNPs, that will become the name of the project! If for neither we'll have to find you another one. (An NGS test - Big Y or FGC Elite 2.0 - would have sorted this out at a stroke and "banked" a string of singleton SNPs (seen only in your sample) for checking against future participants). Thank you.

Nigel McCarthy

Reith
12-22-2015, 08:06 PM
Just have to mail them in at a post office and then I guess we will see.

Reith
12-22-2015, 08:11 PM
I just joined the group as well.

Reith
01-05-2016, 10:13 PM
Mr Reith,

Any news on your FGC18205 and Z16534 tests yet? If you have not already, please join YSeq Group ID 32. We hope you will also join the P314 Haplogroup Project. Yes, I know you are negative for P314 but we are going to rename the project to be sure you feel included and belong somewhere!! If you prove positive for just one of these two SNPs, that will become the name of the project! If for neither we'll have to find you another one. (An NGS test - Big Y or FGC Elite 2.0 - would have sorted this out at a stroke and "banked" a string of singleton SNPs (seen only in your sample) for checking against future participants). Thank you.

Nigel McCarthy

Shipped off to YSEQ. Waiting on results

Reith
01-14-2016, 10:41 PM
Ok, so I am negative for both of those..

Would this possibly mean that my ancestor was so far back in the FGC3213 tre=
e that he could have been a continental Celt / Bell Beaker?

JRW
01-15-2016, 06:27 PM
All of the evidence specifically related to your situation has consistently supported that premise (i.e., that your haplotype is the legacy of L21>DF13>DF21's continental origins). The recent paper that evaluated Neolithic and bell beaker skeletal remains on Rathlin Island confidently identified one of those bell beakers as being DF21 (Rathlin1). Further analysis of the genomic data by Alex Williamson strongly suggests that none of the DF21 lineages we observe today (the vast majority associated with Isles ancestry) descend from either Rathlin1 or any of his brothers and cousins. The study concluded that Rathlin1's lineage likely represented a relatively recent immigrant population (i.e., early Bronze Age) to the Isles. Not surprisingly IMO, his overall genome had the greatest affinity to a present day continental population sample from Germany/Austria. If I recall correctly, your surname is German and your paper trail lineage is German, correct?

Reith
01-17-2016, 02:51 PM
All of the evidence specifically related to your situation has consistently supported that premise (i.e., that your haplotype is the legacy of L21>DF13>DF21's continental origins). The recent paper that evaluated Neolithic and bell beaker skeletal remains on Rathlin Island confidently identified one of those bell beakers as being DF21 (Rathlin1). Further analysis of the genomic data by Alex Williamson strongly suggests that none of the DF21 lineages we observe today (the vast majority associated with Isles ancestry) descend from either Rathlin1 or any of his brothers and cousins. The study concluded that Rathlin1's lineage likely represented a relatively recent immigrant population (i.e., early Bronze Age) to the Isles. Not surprisingly IMO, his overall genome had the greatest affinity to a present day continental population sample from Germany/Austria. If I recall correctly, your surname is German and your paper trail lineage is German, correct?

Yes, for Paternal male line my ancestor came from the Kingdom of Hanover. That was a pretty broad area, but covers a lot of Lower Saxony.

If you go to the GeoGen website; Reith peaks in Bavaria and then again on Lower Saxony.

Reith
01-17-2016, 03:05 PM
Here is all my surnames:

Paternal:

Reith - Kingdom of Hanover
Landwehr - Germany
Doering - Berlin Area
Kaiser - Germany
Stiller - Germany
Breuning - Germany
Berli- Switzerland

Maternal:

Wilke - Prussia
Misegaes - Oldenburg, possibly from Netherlands
Petershagen - Oldenburg
Lang - Prussia
Fandrey- Prussia, possibly from Sweden originally
Lowelle - Unkown, maybe France
Rux - Prussia

oneillabu
01-18-2016, 01:13 AM
Further analysis of the genomic data by Alex Williamson strongly suggests that none of the DF21 lineages we observe today (the vast majority associated with Isles ancestry) descend from either Rathlin1 or any of his brothers and cousins. The study concluded that Rathlin1's lineage likely represented a relatively recent immigrant population (i.e., early Bronze Age) to the Isles.

And what about the S5488 call for Rathlin 2, just because it had a cautionary asterisk does not mean it should be discounted, on the contrary if you look at S5488 you will clearly see that this is Irish in origin and the Genetic distances between IRISH CLUSTERS are exactly on the money for 2200 BC, I have distances of over 50% between L720 and L130 people so if a GD of 10 at 111 markers represents 850 years or the time frame of surnames then a GD of around 50 at 111 markers must surely mean 5 times this so 850 x 5 = 4250 years so this confirms that not only is the Rathlin 2 result feasible, it is almost certainly correct.

To suggest that all of the Irish DF21 people stem from a later migration is nonsense because all of these different lines stemming from individual SNP's have a very strong Irish content and what you are suggesting is completely implausible, THERE IS NO CONTINENTAL TRAIL of DF21 to be found apart from some Scandanavian Viking results. If you are going to try to use FGC3213 as an example then stick to the facts that I have shown below

Here is a breakdown of the origins of the 118 FGC3213 people in the project

Ireland 51 out of 118
Scotland 23 out of 118
UK 8 (most are Scottish surnames)
Uknown 25 (Most are Irish and Scottish surnames and no continental surnames)
England 7 (Scottish surnames with two Irish)
France 1 Conrady dating from 1770
Norway 1 Thomason dating from 1720
Germany 1 Reith dating from 1836

So you maintain that all of these stem from Reith because he has Autosomal DNA that is primarily German, I have hundreds of matches to the Southern States in the USA, does that make me a Native American, what absolute rubbish, lets look at the Genetic distance at 111 markers between Reith and a McCarthy from Southern Ireland, the distance is 22 which is roughly around 1700 years ago, so you are maintaining that DF21 came to Ireland 4200 years ago, disappeared for 2500 years and reappeared around 300 AD, this is pure garbage, to be honest with you I do not know why I am actually wasting my time responding to this nonsense.

rms2
01-18-2016, 01:46 AM
Well, if Rathlin 1's SNPs downstream of DF21 push the age of DF21 back a few centuries beyond YFull's current estimate of 2100 BC to, say, 2600 BC, that would mean it is not possible that DF21 originated anywhere in the Isles, especially Ireland, unless one wants to argue that DF21 predates Bell Beaker there.

7352

I don't really care where DF21 originated, and I realize some just have to have an Irish point of origin, but the facts are what they are.

MJost
01-18-2016, 04:07 AM
...

So you maintain that all of these stem from Reith because he has Autosomal DNA that is primarily German, I have hundreds of matches to the Southern States in the USA, does that make me a Native American, what absolute rubbish, ...
No, it was the study that reported that:

"Rathlin1, Rathlin2, and Rathlin3, who fall in a separate central region of the graph along with Unetice and other Early Bronze Age genomes from Central and North Europe. These plots imply that ancient Irish genetic affinities segregate within European archaeological horizons rather than clustering geographically within the island."

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full.pdf?with-ds=yes

Your logic is moot.

MJost

Reith
01-19-2016, 07:49 PM
Wow, people get butt hurt quick around here...

Reith
01-19-2016, 08:06 PM
And what about the S5488 call for Rathlin 2, just because it had a cautionary asterisk does not mean it should be discounted, on the contrary if you look at S5488 you will clearly see that this is Irish in origin and the Genetic distances between IRISH CLUSTERS are exactly on the money for 2200 BC, I have distances of over 50% between L720 and L130 people so if a GD of 10 at 111 markers represents 850 years or the time frame of surnames then a GD of around 50 at 111 markers must surely mean 5 times this so 850 x 5 = 4250 years so this confirms that not only is the Rathlin 2 result feasible, it is almost certainly correct.

To suggest that all of the Irish DF21 people stem from a later migration is nonsense because all of these different lines stemming from individual SNP's have a very strong Irish content and what you are suggesting is completely implausible, THERE IS NO CONTINENTAL TRAIL of DF21 to be found apart from some Scandanavian Viking results. If you are going to try to use FGC3213 as an example then stick to the facts that I have shown below

Here is a breakdown of the origins of the 118 FGC3213 people in the project

Ireland 51 out of 118
Scotland 23 out of 118
UK 8 (most are Scottish surnames)
Uknown 25 (Most are Irish and Scottish surnames and no continental surnames)
England 7 (Scottish surnames with two Irish)
France 1 Conrady dating from 1770
Norway 1 Thomason dating from 1720
Germany 1 Reith dating from 1836

So you maintain that all of these stem from Reith because he has Autosomal DNA that is primarily German, I have hundreds of matches to the Southern States in the USA, does that make me a Native American, what absolute rubbish, lets look at the Genetic distance at 111 markers between Reith and a McCarthy from Southern Ireland, the distance is 22 which is roughly around 1700 years ago, so you are maintaining that DF21 came to Ireland 4200 years ago, disappeared for 2500 years and reappeared around 300 AD, this is pure garbage, to be honest with you I do not know why I am actually wasting my time responding to this nonsense.

Abu,

There point of my admixture and surnames was to show that people in the USA mostly stick to marrying their ethnic and socio-economic background. Ergo, Germans married Germans or at least German speaking people in my case.

I could care less about what your views on the land of the leprechauns or whatever your agenda is. I seek the truth, whether it was a continental Gaul/Celt or a Martian that is my direct Y ancestor. I have an open mind on whomever it will be, personally I am hoping Martian. I just know that the paper references affinities to CONTINENTAL groups, I don't match well with other FGC3213s AND my paper trail leads back to the continent.

Slainte, now go have a beer and relax yourself..

JamesKane
01-20-2016, 02:20 AM
And what about the S5488 call for Rathlin 2, just because it had a cautionary asterisk does not mean it should be discounted

HWI-D00381:34:C3EB0ACXX:6:1308:3668:28305 has three mismatches on the 81 bases it covers. Without a second read or another variant in the same sample pointing down DF21, it needs to be treated with a fair amount of suspicion. I'm hoping to get a chance to redo the alignments from the FASTQ soon, but have some competing priorities on my CPU time.

Rory Cain
01-25-2016, 03:55 AM
The thread being titled FGC3213, quite an old and diverse subclade, with quite a few branches, some of the discussion on FGC3213 seems mite narrow in focus. It may assist to know that FTDNA have accepted my submission to add a little more to the FGC3213 section of their Y-haplotree than just P314.2 and L362, which were all that it had. We are no longer restricted to talking about just P314.2. Some 15 generations of FGC3213 now appear on the Y- tree, a nice reward for those Little Scots Cluster folks who have been dedicated NGS testers.
Alex Williamson's work on S5456 has seen it too added to the FGC3213 section as a brother to S3058. They join the small S7174 sub-clade so far found only in the Ogilvie clan, presently the easternmost branch of DF21. Likewise the Little Scots Cluster is fairly easterly, appearing to have such a strong association with East Stirlingshire that DrJ Wilson identifies them with the Maeatae. Contoversial, but at least he is looking a bit wider. There should be more of it.

Rory Cain
03-03-2016, 08:46 PM
FGC3213 has now grown considerably on FTDNA 's Y-haplotree. Especially the section spanned by the Little Scots Cluster, who have done a considerable amount of NGS testing.

I have placed S5456 under FGC3213, same as shown of Alex's Big Tree at www.ytree.net

Although P314 has been the exclusive focus of this thread titled "FGC3213", P314 testing by NGS appears underdone by comparison. Except for the L362 McCarthys, who can now identify branches of their clan by SNP markers. The SNP branching matches their pedigree. Nice when that happens! But you have to put the work in.

Reith
03-04-2016, 06:01 PM
This mean anything for me?

Rory Cain
03-05-2016, 04:07 AM
This mean anything for me?

It could. It will have an immediate flow-on for those who have already tested positive for any of the SNPs newly added to the Y-haplotree. The reward for their efforts will be an imediate update to their haplogroup. If you have tested on past the barrier of your P314-, say testing positive through FTDNA for one of its alternatives, we could get that alternative SNP listed on the FTDNA Y-haplotree for you and then your haplogroup would also automatically update. If you tested positive for one of those through Yseq, FTDNA will have no visibility of that and your listed haplogroup at FTDNA would stay the same, but you would still know that it has actually moved downstream somewhat - useful information. The FGC3213 section of FTDNA's Y=haplotree now looks very much like it does on Alex's Big Tree at www.familytreedna.com except that Dr Jim Wilson's private SNPs are in Scotlandfs DNA database and only those that some FTDNA customer shares with Dr Wilson are in the FTDNA database and therefore on the FTDNA Y-haplotree.

McCarthygen
05-24-2016, 10:00 AM
Ok, so I am negative for both of those..

Would this possibly mean that my ancestor was so far back in the FGC3213 tre=
e that he could have been a continental Celt / Bell Beaker?

Which ancestor are you talking about? The common ancestor you share with P314+ folk is crudely estimated as living about 3000 ybp (1000 B.C.), i.e later than the Bell Beaker culture era. This estimate is based on the number of post-DF21 STR mutations you appear to share with others who are P314+. (The implication is that P314 occurred still later than this). However, we'd have a better guess if we knew how many SNPs you shared with the P314+ folk, i.e one of your subgroup (yourself or one of the Griffith(s) etc.) took an NGS test. If there were the enthusiasm for it perhaps all could contribute to a single test, but so far attempts to communicate with these others have not suggested any such enthusiasm. The other alternative - testing the remaining shared (with P314+ folk) purported SNPs individually - is not practical as some are not suitable for Sanger Sequence testing, even if phylogenetically consistent in Big Y testing.

Reith
07-18-2016, 06:08 PM
Just confirmed my direct male ancestor was born in Northern Lower Saxony in 1738 via DNA relative and ancestry records.

I am just going with the Cimbri tribe, no one knows if they were Germanic or Celtic or a mix.... kinda like me :):beerchug:

Reith
07-29-2016, 07:19 PM
Just confirmed my direct male ancestor was born in Northern Lower Saxony in 1738 via DNA relative and ancestry records.

I am just going with the Cimbri tribe, no one knows if they were Germanic or Celtic or a mix.... kinda like me :):beerchug:

And now 1655, Johann Reith.....