STR of T ydna

[vettor]

Looking at the site below for T only

http://www.semargl.me/haplogroups/

I find the group noted as T dys390=22 as a european origin ...maybe an ancient one
34 of the 111 STR are the exact same

while the other T ( unknown group ) haplotypes in the link , does not fit these dys390=22 type

[vettor]

Interesting that the Ray Banks Isogg experimental tree has noted my known positive marker - CTS8862 as
• • • • • •T12b1a CTS8489 (18050535 G->A ) or CTS8862 (18246590 G->T) 4.5 KY

4500 years ago, since everything downstream from this marker is tested negative for me , then that's it for me for future testing.
4500 years ago is early bronze age III ( from 2700bc to 2200bc )

https://sites.google.com/site/compositeytree/t

[GarethH]

Kit #38660 has DYS490 = 22 but recently received a CTS8862- result. I think CTS8862 is younger than 4500 years.
Vettor, have you considered a Big Y test?

[vettor]

I ran my natgeno2 results of SNP's ( all the positives and all the negatives SNP ) in CMorley 2013 program and it gave me this

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/natgeno2%20morley_zpszr6ver9d.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/natgeno2%20morley_zpszr6ver9d.jpg.html)

This is 2013 program and I have further downstream SNP to arrive at CTS8862+ and further downstream from this CTS8862 SNP are all SNP known as being ALL negatives.

I was wanting to know if there is a more up to date subclade predictor than CMorley 2013 one

BTW...NatGeno2 is still the ONLY tested company, to have me predicted correctly at the present time ( better than ftdna and 23andme )

[Saetro]

BTW...NatGeno2 is still the ONLY tested company, to have me predicted correctly at the present time ( better than ftdna and 23andme )[/QUOTE]

ftdna currently appears very conservative about predicting sub haplogroups. Some people had predictions beyond where they are now before ftdna had a re-think a while ago. Friends in R1b-U106 and similar say that the ftdna Haplogroup Project groups have been very helpful with new possibilities, and I have found that myself with T Project.
Just remember, as others have said recently on other threads, that not a lot of people have T. You can't make stats without data. And without the stats there won't be predictions.
Your Geno2 testing has helped provide data. Thank you.

[vettor]

BTW...NatGeno2 is still the ONLY tested company, to have me predicted correctly at the present time ( better than ftdna and 23andme )

ftdna currently appears very conservative about predicting sub haplogroups. Some people had predictions beyond where they are now before ftdna had a re-think a while ago. Friends in R1b-U106 and similar say that the ftdna Haplogroup Project groups have been very helpful with new possibilities, and I have found that myself with T Project.
Just remember, as others have said recently on other threads, that not a lot of people have T. You can't make stats without data. And without the stats there won't be predictions.
Your Geno2 testing has helped provide data. Thank you.[/QUOTE]

thanks , I will have to do further testings .................even to create a new branch as per below I am "stuck"
red = tested negative , green = tested positive, pink = different branch ( july 2015 markers )

• • • •T1a2b L446 (16660785 C->T)
• • • • •T1a2b1 CTS11984 (23403451 T->G) FTDNA subgroup
• • • • • •T1a2b1a CTS8489 (18050535 G->A) or CTS8862 (18246590 G->T) 4.5 KY
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a1 L25/PF5345/S399 (19136822 T->C) FTDNA subgroup
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a2 Pages113 (2713589 G->A) or S17120 (15426389 A->C )
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a3 Z33764 (7247507 C->T) Iberians 2.7 KY
• • • • • • •T1a2b1a4 CTS1080 (7187436 T->C) Hispanics 2.7 KY
• • • • • •T1b2b1b Pages11 (14496103 C->T) FTDNA subgroup
• • • • • •T1b2b1c CTS4571 (15719140 C->T) Tuscans 4.5 KY
• • • • • •T1b2b1d Y7381 (7150898 A->G)
• • • • • • •T1b2b1d1 Y7438 (14196904 T->C)
• • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1a Y11077 (22909353 G->C) Saudis
• • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b Y7393 (21509927 C->T)
• • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1 Y7468 (17395593 T->G)
• • • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1a Y7430 (22003091 A->G) Saudis
• • • • • • • • • •T1b2b1d1b1b Y9326 (22470399 T->C) Saudis

[GarethH]

The next update to the YFull tree will have estimates for the TMRCAs for T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 and T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862, thanks to data submitted by two T Project members who have tested Big Y. The two testees are related within the last 300-500 years and several new SNPs will be added to the tree to define a new branch below T-CTS8489.
My predictions for YFull's estimates:
T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 3,500 ybp i.e. 1,500 BC
T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862 2,500 ybp i.e. 500 BC
There are also two more Big Y tests in progress for T-L131 kits (both probably T-L446 and one possibly T-CTS54).
I'll report back here when the results are in.

[vettor]

The next update to the YFull tree will have estimates for the TMRCAs for T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 and T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862, thanks to data submitted by two T Project members who have tested Big Y. The two testees are related within the last 300-500 years and several new SNPs will be added to the tree to define a new branch below T-CTS8489.
My predictions for YFull's estimates:
T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 3,500 ybp i.e. 1,500 BC
T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862 2,500 ybp i.e. 500 BC
There are also two more Big Y tests in progress for T-L131 kits (both probably T-L446 and one possibly T-CTS54).
I'll report back here when the results are in.

Thanks

It seems genetics is getting closer to myself for what dougM predicted for me over 2years ago.
He stated I was around 200bc in northern Yugoslavia/eastern alps .........

[vettor]

The next update to the YFull tree will have estimates for the TMRCAs for T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 and T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862, thanks to data submitted by two T Project members who have tested Big Y. The two testees are related within the last 300-500 years and several new SNPs will be added to the tree to define a new branch below T-CTS8489.
My predictions for YFull's estimates:
T-CTS54/T-CTS11984 3,500 ybp i.e. 1,500 BC
T-CTS8489/T-CTS8862 2,500 ybp i.e. 500 BC
There are also two more Big Y tests in progress for T-L131 kits (both probably T-L446 and one possibly T-CTS54).
I'll report back here when the results are in.

I see that in the new Isogg T November 2015 data

• • • T1a2 L131, CTS2157
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b L446, CTS11796, CTS12108
• • • • • T1a2b1 CTS3767, CTS11984
• • • • • • T1a2b1a CTS8862, CTS9984

you or others have noted are approximately CTS8489 and CTS10538. Listed 22 November 2015., what does this mean?

Do you still refer to this branch as the "northern branch"

BTW.........I note in green which I am tested positive and in red which I am tested negative

In post#4, is my Geno2 data run in the Chris Morley program

[GarethH]

I see that in the new Isogg T November 2015 data

• • • T1a2 L131, CTS2157
• • • • T1a2a P322, P328
• • • • T1a2b L446, CTS11796, CTS12108
• • • • • T1a2b1 CTS3767, CTS11984
• • • • • • T1a2b1a CTS8862, CTS9984

you or others have noted are approximately CTS8489 and CTS10538. Listed 22 November 2015., what does this mean?

Do you still refer to this branch as the "northern branch"

BTW.........I note in green which I am tested positive and in red which I am tested negative

In post#4, is my Geno2 data run in the Chris Morley program

The SNPs added to the tree are those included in the Geno2 data. The SNPs "under investigation" have only been seen in 1000 genomes and Big Y data so require additional checking. "Approximately" is not my wording but has been applied by the website administrator.
I anticipate that the next update of YFull will add an additional layer between L446 and CTS3767. If it does, I will replicate it on the ISOGG tree.
T-L446 appears to show greater variation in Europe than it does in the middle east. The T-Y7381 branch found in Saudi Arabia (and heavily tested) is relatively young (1400 ybp) so could be the result of a recent migration from further north.

[vettor]

The SNPs added to the tree are those included in the Geno2 data. The SNPs "under investigation" have only been seen in 1000 genomes and Big Y data so require additional checking. "Approximately" is not my wording but has been applied by the website administrator.
I anticipate that the next update of YFull will add an additional layer between L446 and CTS3767. If it does, I will replicate it on the ISOGG tree.
T-L446 appears to show greater variation in Europe than it does in the middle east. The T-Y7381 branch found in Saudi Arabia (and heavily tested) is relatively young (1400 ybp) so could be the result of a recent migration from further north.

Thanks

So , As I stated a while ago.....there seems to be no T in the Arabian peninsula earlier than 1800yo.............and also no T in Eastern Africa until the same period.

This fits the 2004 paper by Luis JR , The levant versus the Horn of Africa..............where the oldest T found was in Oman and was only 1600yo

The ages also match Yfull data as well for T

Maybe the arabian peninsula came popular with T via kuwate and the recent paper stating......100% of Kuwati's are of Persian descent

[vettor]

confused by latest yfull Tree ( experimental tree )

firstly ybp is stated to begin on the 1st January 1950

the tree

T-L131S15560 * Z19910/FGC22999/Y6047 * S12150... 34 SNPsformed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 11000 ybpinfo

id:YF04665KWT [KW-AH]new
T-L131*
T-P322Y13246 * Y13253 * Y13271... 90 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybpinfo
id:YF03124SAU [SA-02]
id:YF02949SAU [SA-01]
T-Y6033Z19923/FGC22998/Y6037 * CTS2880 * CTS11660... 18 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybpinfo
T-Y6033*
T-CTS933S24464 * CTS6071 * CTS933... 3 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo
T-CTS933*
id:YF04719IRQ [IQ-BA]new
id:YF04638EGY [EG-ASN]new
T-CTS54CTS54 * Z19896 * Z19926... 22 SNPsformed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
T-CTS54*
id:NA20758TSI
T-CTS8489CTS8862 * CTS10538 * CTS8489... 3 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
T-CTS8489*
id:HG01051PUR
id:HG01530IBS
T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500... 11 SNPsformed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04232
id:YF04203USA [US-NC]

my question is - the line T-Y17493 with a ybp ( TMRCA ) stated 375 means 1575AD ......is this correct?

next question , as for me..........I jump from line T-Y6033 to line CTS54 , bypassing the CTS933 line as I have none of any of these SNP, what does this mean?

[GarethH]

Vettor

As you have only tested with Geno 2.0, you don't have results for all the known SNPs, but because you are CTS8862+ you can assume you are positive for
- CTS933 and all equivalent SNPs
- CTS54 and all equivalent SNPs
You can't tell whether you are positive for all the SNPs equivalent to CTS8862 (my bet is all or most of them) and you don't know which SNPs you are positive for of those shared by the two T-Y17493 kits (I suspect it would be very few, possibly none).

The two T-Y17493 kits are related in genealogical time as they share a surname but they don't have a paper trail to confirm this. 1500-1650 AD is not an unreasonable estimate, I wouldn't be confident to be more precise than that.

Gareth

[vettor]

Vettor

As you have only tested with Geno 2.0, you don't have results for all the known SNPs, but because you are CTS8862+ you can assume you are positive for
- CTS933 and all equivalent SNPs
- CTS54 and all equivalent SNPs
You can't tell whether you are positive for all the SNPs equivalent to CTS8862 (my bet is all or most of them) and you don't know which SNPs you are positive for of those shared by the two T-Y17493 kits (I suspect it would be very few, possibly none).

The two T-Y17493 kits are related in genealogical time as they share a surname but they don't have a paper trail to confirm this. 1500-1650 AD is not an unreasonable estimate, I wouldn't be confident to be more precise than that.

Gareth

I also tested with ftdna (67 ) and 23andme v3........but Geno2 has the most SNP to view for both positive and negative.

In regards to this T-Y17493 in "USA".......I do have 0 GD with a few people from north and south Carolina.

When I wrote to a - Hill, he stated his ancestor was a horse trader and a slaver who originated from Scotland pre 1700 ( that was his story ), the other was of german descent , he states - Reddicks are German in origin, having had the surname recorded as Radick upon arrival in Savannah, GA in 1737. Back in the Odenwald region of southwest Germany the name had been Rettich / Rettig and a century earlier the family was named Retgen. Rettich is German for the vegetable radish.

Looks like I need to do a BigY

BTW, I keep in contact with KevinF, do you mind if I let me know this as it seems we fit together until after CTS8862 when we get a 3 GD

regards

[vettor]

the 7th of jan 2016 Isogg
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

has T1a-L490 as greyed out ..........I am now confused. Natgeno2 has this positive for me and the other one, a no call ( L206 ). other companies have me as negative for L206

Why did isogg put L490 as investigative ?

the part of my SNP showing positive for L490
V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, L298+, L350+, L446+, L468+, L470+, L490+, L498+, M139+, M168+, M235+, M272+

[Saetro]

the 7th of jan 2016 Isogg
http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpT.html

Why did isogg put L490 as investigative ?

[/B]

ISOGG tree seems to be fairly conservative.

"firstly ybp is stated to begin on the 1st January 1950"
To respond to your earlier questioning of this.
When carbon dating began in the 1949, and was picked up soon afterwards, scientists had to find a date to peg as "the present", just as dates of AD/CE spring from a particular time, and other dating systems - Roman, Islamic and so on do too.
That is the date they picked.
And that is a term that is well understood by archaeologists.
For genetic genealogists, we often refer interchangeably to "years ago" and "ybp", but the latter is less by (Now - 1 Jan 1950) years.
Usually this really doesn't matter.
If you are reading about an archaeological discovery and comparing carbon dates and DNA dates, there might be a difference if the years are stated differently, but usually 66 years is a tiny fraction of the error margin, so makes no difference.

(Certainly not as big a difference as when I get mixed up between "years ago" and "BC"!)

[vettor]

With this recent Greek-cypriot paper
The T ydna on cyprus is indicated as Caucasus origin between Lake Van and Susan...............IIRC, these are have currently a high percentage of T for Western and Northern Kurds.....would I be correct?

Caucasus origin ?.........looks Eastern Anatolian to me .......hmm unsure what they mean.

[vettor]

with L-m20 being stated as 35% of druze Lebanese/Syrians and T1a being present in Kurds and Armenians,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L-M20

Does it not seem logical that T1a travellled along the northern part of the zargos mountains while the L Ydna travelled along the southern part...........if so the split of the TL-P326 must have been between its origins in northern india and this syrian-kurdish frontier

[vettor]

https://s20.postimg.cc/v8g5ym3lp/t1aitalia2015.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/i4allxbjt/)

from 2015 Boatinni Italian paper

[JonikW]

confused by latest yfull Tree ( experimental tree )

firstly ybp is stated to begin on the 1st January 1950

the tree

T-L131S15560 * Z19910/FGC22999/Y6047 * S12150... 34 SNPsformed 15800 ybp, TMRCA 11000 ybpinfo

id:YF04665KWT [KW-AH]new
T-L131*
T-P322Y13246 * Y13253 * Y13271... 90 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 800 ybpinfo
id:YF03124SAU [SA-02]
id:YF02949SAU [SA-01]
T-Y6033Z19923/FGC22998/Y6037 * CTS2880 * CTS11660... 18 SNPsformed 11000 ybp, TMRCA 7300 ybpinfo
T-Y6033*
T-CTS933S24464 * CTS6071 * CTS933... 3 SNPsformed 7300 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo
T-CTS933*
id:YF04719IRQ [IQ-BA]new
id:YF04638EGY [EG-ASN]new
T-CTS54CTS54 * Z19896 * Z19926... 22 SNPsformed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 2800 ybpinfo
T-CTS54*
id:NA20758TSI
T-CTS8489CTS8862 * CTS10538 * CTS8489... 3 SNPsformed 2800 ybp, TMRCA 2200 ybpinfo
T-CTS8489*
id:HG01051PUR
id:HG01530IBS
T-Y17493Y17497 * Y17499 * Y17500... 11 SNPsformed 2200 ybp, TMRCA 375 ybpinfo
id:YF04232
id:YF04203USA [US-NC]

my question is - the line T-Y17493 with a ybp ( TMRCA ) stated 375 means 1575AD ......is this correct?

next question , as for me..........I jump from line T-Y6033 to line CTS54 , bypassing the CTS933 line as I have none of any of these SNP, what does this mean?

YFull uses a different definition of ybp. So if the sample you mention has been added to the tree this year you would have a TMRCA of 1643. From their website:

* ybp - years before present (the number of years ago a common ancestor is estimated to have lived or an event is estimated to have occurred before the current year (for example 2017)). When ybp is used in reference to an individual analyzed sample, "present" means the year in which the YFull age estimation information for the sample is added to the YTree. [ybp does not mean 1 January 1950 as used in some parts of the scientific community.] YFull's definition of ybp should not be confused with the formula used by YFull for age estimation estimation purposes: 144.41 years (assumed mutation rate) plus 60 years (assumed age of person who sample is analyzed by YFull).

[vettor]

YFull uses a different definition of ybp. So if the sample you mention has been added to the tree this year you would have a TMRCA of 1643. From their website:

* ybp - years before present (the number of years ago a common ancestor is estimated to have lived or an event is estimated to have occurred before the current year (for example 2017)). When ybp is used in reference to an individual analyzed sample, "present" means the year in which the YFull age estimation information for the sample is added to the YTree. [ybp does not mean 1 January 1950 as used in some parts of the scientific community.] YFull's definition of ybp should not be confused with the formula used by YFull for age estimation estimation purposes: 144.41 years (assumed mutation rate) plus 60 years (assumed age of person who sample is analyzed by YFull).

ok.............it would mean my marker is from 1394 BC

this below is the oldest T1a (ydna) line in Europe ...so for clarity can you tell me his year of beginning on the balearic islands

T-Y63197 BY109931 * BY91852 * Y151264+18 SNPsformed 12700 ybp, TMRCA 8900 ybpo

id:YF14035ESP [ES-PM]new

[Saetro]

YFull uses a different definition of ybp. So if the sample you mention has been added to the tree this year you would have a TMRCA of 1643. From their website:

* ybp - years before present (the number of years ago a common ancestor is estimated to have lived or an event is estimated to have occurred before the current year (for example 2017)). When ybp is used in reference to an individual analyzed sample, "present" means the year in which the YFull age estimation information for the sample is added to the YTree. [ybp does not mean 1 January 1950 as used in some parts of the scientific community.] YFull's definition of ybp should not be confused with the formula used by YFull for age estimation estimation purposes: 144.41 years (assumed mutation rate) plus 60 years (assumed age of person who sample is analyzed by YFull).

At least they define it.
But I really get fed up with people who take generally understood terms and ascribe their own meanings.
In some cases the new meaning is the exact opposite of the generally agreed term.
Not that this is new. Lewis Carroll railed against it in Alice "Through the Looking Glass".
Humpty Dumpty admits that he does it because he is on a power trip.
Not a good sign of how Humpty Dumpty handled consumer concerns.

We certainly need new terms for things.
And people who have enough energy to check whether their proposed neologism might confuse.

[vettor]

https://s20.postimg.cc/v8g5ym3lp/t1aitalia2015.jpg (https://postimg.cc/image/i4allxbjt/)

from 2015 Boatinni Italian paper

using nevgen........the following branches where found for the samples above ..............all 3 T branches are in Italy T1a1, T1a2 and T1a3

Cuneo T1a2-L131
Brescia T1a2-L131
Vicenza T1a2-L131
Vicenza T1a2-L131
.
La Spezia T1a1 - CTS11451
Siena T1a2-L131
Siena T1a3 Y11151
.
L'Aquila T1a2-L131
L'Aquila T1a3 Y11151
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
Matera T1a2-L131
.
Arigeneto T1a2-L131
Ragusa T1a2-L131
Ragusa T1a1 - CTS11451
.
La Spezia T1a1 - CTS11451
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
L'Aquila T1a1 - CTS11451
Benevento T1a1 - CTS11451
Matera T1a1 - CTS11451
Oristano T1a1 - Y4119

[vettor]

Supplementary Table S1. Absolute and relative frequencies of the observed haplogroups in the new sample of 135 individuals belonging to 66 paternal lineages from Emilia Romagna and Veneto.

HAPLOGROUP ABS. FREQ.
E-V13 5
E-M34 1
G2a-U1 2
G2a-U8 9
I1-M253 5
I1-P109 1
J1-P58 4
J2a-M410 3
J2b-M241 12
LT-P326 1
T-L131 10
R1a-M198 6
R1b-M269 4
R1b-M412 6
R1b-Z381 1
R1b-L48 2
R1b-P312 4
R1b-Z195 2
R1b-U152 33
R1b-L2 24

from the recent paper


Estimating Y-Str Mutation Rates and Tmrca Through Deep-Rooting Italian Pedigrees

Alessio Boattini, Stefania Sarno, Alessandra M. Mazzarisi, Cinzia Viroli, Sara De Fanti, Carla Bini, Maarten H. D. Larmuseau, Susi Pelotti & Donata Luiselli


I am from the T-L131 branch

[vettor]

Supplementary Table S1. Absolute and relative frequencies of the observed haplogroups in the new sample of 135 individuals belonging to 66 paternal lineages from Emilia Romagna and Veneto.

HAPLOGROUP ABS. FREQ.
E-V13 5
E-M34 1
G2a-U1 2
G2a-U8 9
I1-M253 5
I1-P109 1
J1-P58 4
J2a-M410 3
J2b-M241 12
LT-P326 1
T-L131 10
R1a-M198 6
R1b-M269 4
R1b-M412 6
R1b-Z381 1
R1b-L48 2
R1b-P312 4
R1b-Z195 2
R1b-U152 33
R1b-L2 24

from the recent paper


Estimating Y-Str Mutation Rates and Tmrca Through Deep-Rooting Italian Pedigrees

Alessio Boattini, Stefania Sarno, Alessandra M. Mazzarisi, Cinzia Viroli, Sara De Fanti, Carla Bini, Maarten H. D. Larmuseau, Susi Pelotti & Donata Luiselli


I am from the T-L131 branch

Some seem to think that the LT-P326 could be from the branch T2-PH110 which there are only 3 in the world so far...Germany, Armenia and Bhutan