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MitchellSince1893
04-28-2015, 05:24 AM
Over the last couple of days I've been going through the British Isles DNA Project by County https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BritishIsles?iframe=ycolorized
It seemed like a good place to find over a 1000 random y-dna samples from all over the British Isles. Plus they were already organized by county.


Methodology:
1. I set the page size to 2260 so that I was only looking at the county data

2. I counted the total number of green haplogroups per county i.e. only those confirmed by SNP testing. There was a total 1040 green entries.

3. I used the FTDNA haplotree to search for all U152 SNPs on the British Isles DNA Project by County. Of the 1040 there were 37 U152 entries...or 3.6% of the total number.

4. I put all this data into a spreadsheet and divided the total U152 number for each county by the total number of green entries (confirmed SNPs).

5. I initially created a county map of Great Britain showing the U152 percentage for each county, but found this unsatisfactory as it gave a misleading impression e.g. 1 county had 2 samples and 1 was U152, another has 4 samples and 2 were U152...so both of these counties were showing 50% U152. With more samples the percentage of U152 would most likely drop significantly.

6. So I went back and geographically grouped counties together so that each group of counties had 32 to 60 confirmed SNP entries per group. I tried to keep historic regions in the same group of counties e.g. East Anglia counties in one region, Essex/Sussex (Historically Saxon areas) in another. As there were so few samples in the Welsh counties (only 32), I put them all in the same region.

Here is the resulting map. EDIT: Updated.

4437

What I find interesting about these results is the total lack of U152 samples in Kent...which is usually shown on maps as the highest region for U152 in Britain. Of 28 confirmed SNPs in Kent, none were U152.
Next door in East and West Sussex there were 12 confirmed SNPs. Again none were U152. So out of 40 entries in Southeast England, none were U152. Only when I added Essex to the group was there one U152 sample out of 58 total for the Southeast county group.

Another surprise was how strong U152 was in Southeast Scotland, and to a lesser extent the North of England. Maybe this is a Roman soldier impact from the days of the Hadrian and Antonine walls? Maybe, but it could be much earlier with the arrival of Bell Beaker or Celts. The Brythonic kingdoms of Rheged and Strathclyde ruled these areas until the 8th and 11th Century respectively.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Hadrians_Wall_map.png

Also, U152 was not present in the Belgae tribal area or the "Civitas of the Belgae" in Southern England...no U152 samples out of the 21 entries from the Isle of Wight, Hampshire, and Wiltshire

Here are the counties that had at least one U152 sample. Keep in mind the small sample sizes when looking at the percent of U152.
County/Total Confirmed SNPs/Total U152/Percent of U152

Kinross 2 1 50.0%
Westmorland 4 2 50.0%
Roxburghshire 7 2 28.6%
Berwickshire 5 1 20.0%
Durham 12 2 16.7%
Fife 6 1 16.7%
Midlothian 12 2 16.7%
Renfrewshire 6 1 16.7%
Cambridge 7 1 14.3%
Glamorgan 7 1 14.3%
Buckinghamshire 15 2 13.3%
Tipperary 10 1 10.0%
Donegal 11 1 9.1%
Hertfordshire 12 1 8.3%
Lincolnshire 24 2 8.3%
Nottinghamshire 12 1 8.3%
Norfolk 28 2 7.1%
Devonshire 29 2 6.9%
Cork 17 1 5.9%
Cheshire 18 1 5.6%
Essex 18 1 5.6%
Lancashire 37 2 5.4%
Cornwall 19 1 5.3%
Yorkshire N/Riding 22 1 4.5%
Suffolk 23 1 4.3%
Yorkshire W/Riding 26 1 3.8%
Somerset 32 1 3.1%
Middlesex 50 1 2.0%

falconson1
04-28-2015, 01:27 PM
Another surprise was how strong U152 was in Southeast Scotland, and to a lesser extent the North of England. Maybe this is a Roman soldier impact from the days of the Hadrian and Antonine walls? Maybe, but it could be much earlier with the arrival of Bell Beaker or Celts.

Southeast Scotland was heavily Angle, as was Bernicia and Northumbria - Bede's country (northeastern England).

Peccavi
04-28-2015, 02:00 PM
Might be better to split up Yorkshire and look at East Yorkshire which should be much more Anglian than the remainder.

MitchellSince1893
04-28-2015, 02:01 PM
Southeast Scotland was heavily Angle, as was Bernicia and Northumbria - Bede's country (northeastern England).
Yes but so was East Anglia and York but they don't have the high percentages like SE Scotland and the North of England .

Also it was Westmorland on the west side that was a U152 hotspot (albeit with a very small sample size). If I recall this was an old Brittonic holdout against kingdom of Northumbria. Then there is Cornwall and Devon which had very little Angle migration...until modern times.

As is, the results strike me as pre Anglo-Saxon for the most part...but I will keep an open mind on other theories.

I have to because before compiling the data I assumed the old Belgae stomping grounds in south central and southeast England would have had the highest percentages. Currently that is not the case. Maybe that will change when a large scale study comes out.

Agamemnon
04-28-2015, 02:03 PM
That's weird, especially considering the fact that East Anglia (Norfolk in particular) is often seen as a U152 hotspot.

MitchellSince1893
04-28-2015, 02:13 PM
Might be better to split up Yorkshire and look at East Yorkshire which should be much more Anglian than the remainder.

None of the 9 confirmed SNPs from East Riding Yorkshire were U152. There was one U152 sample out of 22 for North Riding and 1 out of 26 for West Riding

MitchellSince1893
04-28-2015, 02:18 PM
That's weird, especially considering the fact that East Anglia (Norfolk in particular) is often seen as a U152 hotspot.

I don't want to give the wrong impression, Norfolk by itself does have twice the percentage (7.1 vs 3.6%) compared to the British Isles as a whole .

MitchellSince1893
04-29-2015, 12:34 AM
Here is the county level results. Just keep in mind the small sample sizes in some counties will show an under/over representation of the actual figures i.e. use with caution.

Also attached an updated version of the map from the first post in this thread. I just changed the colors and updated the map key.

4441
4439

MitchellSince1893
04-29-2015, 01:30 AM
...Westmorland on the west side that was a U152 hotspot (albeit with a very small sample size). If I recall this was an old Brittonic holdout against kingdom of Northumbria.

I found this on wiki about this area that was once part of the Brittonic Kingdom of Rheged.

Rheged (Welsh pronunciation: [ˈr̥ɛɡɛd]) is described in poetic sources as one of the kingdoms of the Hen Ogledd ("Old North"), the Brittonic-speaking region of what is now Northern England and southern Scotland, in the Early Middle Ages...Its inhabitants spoke Cumbric, a Brittonic dialect closely related to Old Welsh...Rheged was annexed by Northumbria, some time before AD 730...After Rheged was incorporated into Northumbria, the old Cumbric language was gradually replaced by Old English, Cumbric surviving only in remote upland communities...In the 10th century, after the power of Northumbria was destroyed by Viking incursions and settlement, large areas west of the Pennines fell without warfare under the control of the British Kingdom of Strathclyde...The area of Cumbria remained under the control of Strathclyde until the early 11th century when Strathclyde itself was absorbed into the Scottish kingdom.

The above mentioned Kingdom of Stathclyde overlapped the high concentrations of U152 in Southern Scotland. It lasted until sometime between 1018 and 1054.

Strathclyde ...was one of the early medieval kingdoms of the Britons in the Hen Ogledd, the Brittonic-speaking parts of what is now southern Scotland and northern England...The kingdom developed during the post-Roman period. It is also known as Alt Clut, a Brittonic term for Dumbarton Castle, the medieval capital of the region. It may have had its origins with the Damnonii people of Ptolemy's Geography...

Map of Westmoreland, Cumbria, and Stathclyde

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Strathclyde#/media/File:Strathclyde.kingdom.influence.areas.png

Peccavi
05-01-2015, 07:57 PM
4460

Don't know how much credence can be attached to this map but if true, then U152 looks more likely to be Roman Legionaires!!

Gray Fox
05-01-2015, 09:40 PM
4460

Don't know how much credence can be attached to this map but if true, then U152 looks more likely to be Roman Legionaires!!

Looks a wee bit too ambitious! France is DF27 land! :P

MitchellSince1893
05-01-2015, 09:40 PM
4460

Don't know how much credence can be attached to this map but if true, then U152 looks more likely to be Roman Legionaires!!

That map was made by anthrogenica member Tolan. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1957-Map-of-L21-in-France&p=29907&viewfull=1#post29907. It was only showing R1b subclades.

Besides R1b, Italy also has lots of other haplogroups http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

From the link above.
Haplogroup E1b1b makes up 22% of Basilicata, 19% of Apulia
Haplogroup G makes up 24% of Molise, 12% of Apulia, and 11% of Campania.
Haplogroup I makes up 24.5% of Molise and 22.5% of Friuli-Venezia Giulia.
L is 6.% of Veneto
R1a makes up 13% Friuli-Venezia Giulia
J makes up 34.5% of Calabria, 31% of Marches, 26.5% Abruzzo
T makes up 6% of Basilicata


So if an area of England has high U152 and say haplogroup J and/or E, it may indicate a Roman presence.

Looking at the British Isles Y-DNA Project by County the following counties have high % of J haplogroup
Fife: 33%
Dorset: 21%
Hampshire: 20%
Sussex: 20%
Stirlingshire: 16.7%
Cambridge: 14.3%
Lincolnshire: 12.5%
Northumberland: 12.5%
Staffordshire: 9.5%
Northamptonshire: 9.1%
Lanarkshire: 8%

Haplogroup E:
Isle of Wight: 33%
Westmorland: 25%
Renfrewshire: 17%
Shropshire: 14%
Sussex E: 14%
Ayrshire: 13%
Somerset: 13%
Lancashire: 11%
Surrey: 11%
Derbyshire: 10%
Middlesex: 10%
Midlothian: 8%
Nottinghamshire: 8%
Oxfordshire: 8%

Just a reminder that these are quite small sample sizes, but based on the above,

U152 and J and/or E are both above 8% in:
Renfrewshire, Westmorland, Fife, Cambridgshire, Midlothian, and Nottinghamshire

So these may indicate some Roman U152...but this is all very tentative. Some of the Romans in Britain were indeed U152 but there were probably many other sources for U152 in Britain. Other pre-Roman potential sources U152 include Bell Beaker, Hallstatt, La Tene, and the Belgae.

Agamemnon
05-01-2015, 10:07 PM
While I think U152 mainly came to the Isles during the Iron Age, I think we should be careful not to make easy shortcuts such as U152=Roman. Obviously, this isn't the case.

Solothurn
05-07-2015, 10:49 AM
Thanks :)

My distant ancestral matches (Cowan) have roots in Roxburgh and Selkirk. I heard my more recent ancestors were at Lindisfarne so Berwickshire would be in the mix.

Perhaps a Votadini connection?


In the 1st century the Romans (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome) recorded the Votadini as a British tribe (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_tribe). Between 138162 they came under direct Roman military rule as occupants of the region between Hadrian's (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian%27s_Wall) and the Antonine Walls (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonine_Wall). Then when the Romans drew back to Hadrian's Wall (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian%27s_Wall) the Votadini became a friendly buffer state (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_state)!

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votadini



Over the last couple of days I've been going through the British Isles DNA Project by County https://www.familytreedna.com/public/BritishIsles?iframe=ycolorized
It seemed like a good place to find over a 1000 random y-dna samples from all over the British Isles. Plus they were already organized by county.


Methodology:
1. I set the page size to 2260 so that I was only looking at the county data

2. I counted the total number of green haplogroups per county i.e. only those confirmed by SNP testing. There was a total 1040 green entries.

3. I used the FTDNA haplotree to search for all U152 SNPs on the British Isles DNA Project by County. Of the 1040 there were 37 U152 entries...or 3.6% of the total number.

4. I put all this data into a spreadsheet and divided the total U152 number for each county by the total number of green entries (confirmed SNPs).

5. I initially created a county map of Great Britain showing the U152 percentage for each county, but found this unsatisfactory as it gave a misleading impression e.g. 1 county had 2 samples and 1 was U152, another has 4 samples and 2 were U152...so both of these counties were showing 50% U152. With more samples the percentage of U152 would most likely drop significantly.

6. So I went back and geographically grouped counties together so that each group of counties had 32 to 60 confirmed SNP entries per group. I tried to keep historic regions in the same group of counties e.g. East Anglia counties in one region, Essex/Sussex (Historically Saxon areas) in another. As there were so few samples in the Welsh counties (only 32), I put them all in the same region.

Here is the resulting map. EDIT: Updated.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4437&stc=1

What I find interesting about these results is the total lack of U152 samples in Kent...which is usually shown on maps as the highest region for U152 in Britain. Of 28 confirmed SNPs in Kent, none were U152.
Next door in East and West Sussex there were 12 confirmed SNPs. Again none were U152. So out of 40 entries in Southeast England, none were U152. Only when I added Essex to the group was there one U152 sample out of 58 total for the Southeast county group.

Another surprise was how strong U152 was in Southeast Scotland, and to a lesser extent the North of England. Maybe this is a Roman soldier impact from the days of the Hadrian and Antonine walls? Maybe, but it could be much earlier with the arrival of Bell Beaker or Celts. The Brythonic kingdoms of Rheged and Strathclyde ruled these areas until the 8th and 11th Century respectively.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Hadrians_Wall_map.png

Also, U152 was not present in the Belgae tribal area or the "Civitas of the Belgae" in Southern England...no U152 samples out of the 21 entries from the Isle of Wight, Hampshire, and Wiltshire

Here are the counties that had at least one U152 sample. Keep in mind the small sample sizes when looking at the percent of U152.
County/Total Confirmed SNPs/Total U152/Percent of U152

anglesqueville
06-18-2015, 10:29 AM
4460

Don't know how much credence can be attached to this map but if true, then U152 looks more likely to be Roman Legionaires!!

Richard Rocca : "for those that thought that U152 was purely a sign of a Roman expansion, they were wrong." (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?907-Where-did-U152-originate-and-how-where-the-early-branches-expand/page6 )

MitchellSince1893
06-18-2015, 11:25 AM
Disregard. Posted in wrong thread.

MitchellSince1893
07-05-2015, 03:23 PM
Just came across this potential source for some of the U152 in Northern England and Southern Scotland. Dutch and Belgian soldiers serving at the Hadrian Wall garrisons.
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-media/95/19695-004-3FEBCE5D.gif


Simon Schama says that our understanding of everyday life for soldiers at the wall forts & the population around them have been “transformed” by "one of the most astonishing finds of recent Roman archaeology" :the excavations at Vindolanda and the Vindolanda tablets. Shama describes an inspection on 18 May between AD92 and AD97 where only 456 of the full quota of 756 Dutch and Belgian troops were present, the rest being sick or otherwise absent.[17]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian's_Wall#cite_note-17


Prior to the arrival of U106 carrying Franks, the Low Countries probably had a higher percentage of U152 than currently present (currently around 10% for Flanders and ranging 0 to 40% depending on the Province)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Benelux-map-R1b-S28.jpg

Also, as I previously mentioned, http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3987-Help-me-to-solve-a-family-Mystery-My-paternal-line-before-my-great-grandfather&p=92627&viewfull=1#post92627

there was a influx of Flemish migrants from the 11th to 17th Century AD. Some estimates are that 1/3 of the Scottish population have Flemish ancestry.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Flemish_in_Scotland

MitchellSince1893
07-06-2015, 02:43 AM
Just came across this potential source for some of the U152 in Northern England and Southern Scotland. Dutch and Belgian soldiers serving at the Hadrian Wall garrisons.

Additional info on the Dutch (Batavian) and Belgian (Tungri) troops

Names of the units stationed on Hadrian's Wall reveal how widely Rome recruited its auxiliary regiments, from Spain, Gaul, Germany, the lands along the Danube, Asia Minor, Syria and North Africa.
Both of the principal units identified at Vindolanda, the ninth cohort of Batavians and the first cohort of Tungrians, were recruited from northern Gaul, in a mixed area of 'Germanic' and 'Celtic' peoples, languages and material culture. The Batavians came from the region close to the mouth of the Rhine, in the south of the Netherlands around Nijmegen (Noviomagus), the Roman period capital of Batavian territory. Batavian tribesmen were perhaps recruited by Caesar in the mid first century BC and there was certainly an ala Batavorum by the time of Augustus. They also contributed soldiers to a mounted bodyguard to emperors from Augustus to Nero. Their horsemanship was legendary: the historian Tacitus reports that the men of one unit could swim the Rhine while keeping hold of their arms and horses and retaining their formation.
Eight Batavian infantry units were brought to Britain in AD 43 in the army of conquest . They were withdrawn in AD 66 and led a major revolt against Rome in the political and military turmoil following the death of Nero in AD 68. With the end of the revolt, Batavian units once again participated in the renewed conquest of Britain in the later first century AD.
The Batavians enjoyed an unusual relationship to Rome, being spared taxes in return for a substantial contribution of manpower. Of all the Gallic tribes they contributed the highest numbers to the Roman army, on one estimate one son from every household served. Unusually for auxiliary units, they were perhaps commanded by their own nobles rather than Roman officers. The commander of the Vindolanda garrison, Flavius Cerialis, may be one such noble. In a letter to be published in volume III a soldier addresses Cerialis as rex, 'king'. This may allude to his aristocratic position but it might be simply a subservient form of address.
The Tungrians' homeland is to the south of the Batavians, along the middle stretch of the river Meuse in modern Belgium, their territory centred on Tongeren (Atuatuca Tungrorum). It is not clear when Tungrian units were first raised, but recruitment had certainly begun by the time of the Batavian revolt as a Tungrian unit took part. Both Batavian and Tungrian units were also at Mons Graupius.
After service at Vindolanda the ninth cohort of Batavians took part in Trajan's Dacian campaign and was afterwards stationed in Raetia (southern Germany) until the end of the Roman period. The first cohort of Tungrians stayed at Vindolanda for part of the second century, and by the Severan period had moved the short distance to Housesteads, where it is attested in many inscriptions. Later garrisons at Vindolanda were drawn from other Gallic units.http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/exhibition/people-1.shtml

Location of the homelands for the Tungri/Tongres (Green) and Batavians (Teal)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Germanie-inferieure.jpg

What's interesting is the Tungri territory overlaps the areas of Belgium in the Brambant DNA study that had the highest concentrations of U152 i.e. Liege (40%), Namur (19%), Brambant (17.5%), and Limburg (10%), while Batavia corresponds to the area of The Netherlands with the highest percentage of U152 in the Brambant study i.e. North Brambant (6%).

The area around Hadrian's Wall was, and is, sparsely populated, so the influx of a few hundred men in uniforms with jobs may have had a disproportionate impact on the y-dna of the area as the Tungri may have been stationed there for a few decades (~90 - ~120 AD); and in nearby Vercovicium, aka Housesteads, England up to the 4th Century AD.

More info on these troops here http://vindolanda.csad.ox.ac.uk/tablets/TVII-2-1.shtml


From Alan Bowman and David Thomas, The Vindolanda Writing Tablets (Tabulae Vindolandenses II), London: British Museum Press, 1994. pp. 22-24
In interpreting the evidence of the tablets from the 1970s, we suggested that in the mid-90s Vindolanda was occupied by the quingenary Eighth Cohort of Batavians and that it was succeeded towards the end of the period c. AD 95-105 by the First Cohort of Tungrians, which may have remained in occupation for some years thereafter.2 This interpretation can now be revised and amplified, beginning with the removal from the record of the Eighth Cohort of Batavians, since the evidence which has accumulated subsequently makes it clear that the numeral should have been read as viiii rather than viii.3
The evidence of the tablets now indicates the certain or possible presence of three cohorts, or parts thereof, at Vindolanda, the First Cohort of Tungrians, the Third Cohort of Batavians and the Ninth Cohort of Batavians. The strength report of the First Cohort of Tungrians (154) shows that the unit was based at Vindolanda and the archaeological context of this tablet and of the correspondence of its prefect, Iulius Verecundus, indicates that it was there in the earlier part of the pre-Hadrianic period. The attribution of the strength report to Period 1 now seems less likely than was once thought and we prefer to regard this particular piece of evidence as attributable to Period 2 and hence to the last decade of the first century AD. If this is correct, the Tungrian cohort will have garrisoned Vindolanda after the enlargement of the fort.4 The strength report shows that its nominal strength was 752, including 6 centurions, but of these only 296 were present at Vindolanda when the report was compiled. The absentees included a contribution of 46 singulares legati. It is probable that the unit was in the process of being enlarged from quingenary to milliary (it is attested as such in the diploma of 1035), but there can be no doubt that the enlarged fort will have contained other units or part of units as well; the evidence for the splitting of units and the combination of parts of different types of unit which is accumulating makes it clear that the notion that a fort was garrisoned by one particular unit is far from realistic.6 It is likely that the Tungrian cohort was at Vindolanda also in the period after AD 100. A diploma found at Vindolanda and dating to AD 146, which belongs to a member of the unit who will have been recruited c. AD 122, shows that it is likely to have been at Vindolanda around this time.7 It is certainly mentioned in a letter attributed to Period 4 which implies that it was at Vindolanda (295). The argument that it left Vindolanda and returned after a period of absence is hypothetical and cannot be supported by the one-fort-one-unit pattern. Part of it, at least, may have been there (perhaps coming and going) throughout much of the period c. AD 90-120. Some of the names which occur in texts attributed to the later part of the period would suit a Tungrian unit.8
There is evidence in the tablets for two cohorts of Batavians, the Ninth and the Third, which may well have been two of the units which fought with Agricola at Mons Graupius.9 The Ninth Cohort is attested on several occasions, mainly on tablets which are attributed to Period 3, or which may safely be assigned to the later 90s or early 100s, and there can be no doubt that it formed the main part or a major part of the garrison at Vindolanda at this time.10 There are far more attestations for this unit than for any other in the tablets. In discussing the earlier evidence for the unit (then identified as the Eighth Cohort), we suggested that it might have been a quingenary cohors equitata, basing this mainly on the number of 343 men attested as working in the fabricae (155) and on the repeated mention of barley in an account (190). This no longer seems such an attractive hypothesis, and in view of the fact that there is no other direct evidence for the strength or nature of the unit in this period we think the matter is best left open.11 It is unclear when the unit left Vindolanda; tile stamps which name the unit have been found at Buridava in Moesia Inferior and these have been dated to the period between the first and second Dacian Wars (c. AD 102/6).12
There are two texts which refer to the Third Cohort of Batavians - one addressed to someone connected with the unit and the other probably referring to the fact that Cerialis, prefect of the Ninth Cohort, had received letters from a centurion of the Third. This suggests the presence of part or all of the unit, or individuals belonging to it, at Vindolanda at some point in the late 90s - early 100s, but this does not constitute strong evidence that the unit was actually based at Vindolanda.13 A diploma shows the Third Cohort of Batavians at military strength in Raetia in AD 107.14
An account which is attributed to Period 4 (181) mentions a debt owed by equites Vardulli and this suggests the presence of a detachment of the Spanish cohors I Fida Vardullorum equitata ciuium Romanorum, attested in Britain in AD 98 and known to be milliary in AD 122.15 Another account of the same period records a dispensation of wheat to militibus legionaribus [sic] (180.22-3); whether they were at Vindolanda or simply in the surrounding region, in which the supplier of wheat was operating, remains uncertain, but their presence in a period of important activity in the frontier region is hardly surprising.
Finally, it should be stated that we would not wish to claim evidence in the tablets for an ala Vocontiorum. The reference on which this claim is based (316) seems to us most likely to be an instance of the personal name Vocontius.16 It should be noted, however, that two letters addressed to a decurion named Lucius (299, 300) and one military document mentioning a turma (159) offer firm evidence for the presence of cavalry at Vindolanda.
Units stationed elsewhere than Vindolanda, apart from the singulares legati and other detachments from the First Cohort of Tungrians (see 154), are represented only in a letter from a legionary aquilifer, almost certainly of legio II Augusta, to someone at Vindolanda (214, cf. 281.back 4 note). It must be emphasized, however, that despite the lack of named units there is a great deal of evidence for communication and contact between Vindolanda and units and personnel at other important military stations, such as Carlisle, Catterick, Ribchester, Corbridge and Binchester (Vol. II, Ch. 2).

Kwheaton
07-25-2015, 09:22 PM
Mitchell et al,

I am reviving this thread due to the arrival of a match 45421 TRIPP to our 7Z8F5 (199087) WHEATON
L2 FGC22501, FGC22538, FGC22516, FGC22528, FGC22533, FGC22547 and FGC22500

At a distance of GD -16 (or 21 multi-step) 51/67 this is our closest match to date with 7 downstream SNPS of L2 shared.
But putting together a plausible scenario I revisited our E14332 DOOTZ match form Romania. The commonality may be FLANDERS. If we assume our L2 traveled out of Northern Italy and up the Rhine----DOOTZ branch went to Romania about 1100.
TRIPP is located in Horkstow, Lincolnshire in 1600. This might be a descendent of Flemish immigrants in the 11th century or the earlier Flemish soldiers mentioned above.
Similar migrations of Flemish to South Wales and the Wells and Bristol areas (WHEATON) appear prevalent in the 12th century and perhaps earlier
Our third member of the group is KIDD of unknown UK origins.

The other possibility is a Roman connection but because the DOOTZ is still found in the inland areas of Belgium today---I lean in that direction. Any thoughts?
Kelly

MitchellSince1893
07-25-2015, 10:47 PM
Mitchell et al,

I am reviving this thread due to the arrival of a match 45421 TRIPP to our 7Z8F5 (199087) WHEATON
L2 FGC22501, FGC22538, FGC22516, FGC22528, FGC22533, FGC22547 and FGC22500

At a distance of GD -16 (or 21 multi-step) 51/67 this is our closest match to date with 7 downstream SNPS of L2 shared.
But putting together a plausible scenario I revisited our E14332 DOOTZ match form Romania. The commonality may be FLANDERS. If we assume our L2 traveled out of Northern Italy and up the Rhine----DOOTZ branch went to Romania about 1100.
TRIPP is located in Horkstow, Lincolnshire in 1600. This might be a descendent of Flemish immigrants in the 11th century or the earlier Flemish soldiers mentioned above.
Similar migrations of Flemish to South Wales and the Wells and Bristol areas (WHEATON) appear prevalent in the 12th century and perhaps earlier
Our third member of the group is KIDD of unknown UK origins.

The other possibility is a Roman connection but because the DOOTZ is still found in the inland areas of Belgium today---I lean in that direction. Any thoughts?
Kelly
One possibility (among many) is you both are descendants of FGC22501 et al from the Lower Rhine River that became part of Saxony much later. Your folks came over with the Anglo-Saxons while his came from the Transylvanian Saxons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvanian_Saxons.

Another possibility, is the Roman Empire conquered both Romania and England and you both descend from Roman soldiers. Many legions in Britain went east at various times.

A third possibility Celtic origin.

And there are many more.

After typing the Celtic and Roman possibilities I see you said Dootz went to Romania in the 1100s.

Kwheaton
07-25-2015, 11:09 PM
Mitchell,

Of course at this point I can only wildly speculate.
The connections between TRIPP & WHEATON are much closer than that of DOOTZ and KIDD and we are a long way form pinning anything down but I looked at some of the other surnames Acque agitate recommended here http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4276-Group-Rib-U152-gt-L2-gt-FGC22501

van Benthem is in 1265 Neeuijk Netherlands
Moh in 1716 Randerath, Germany
Litzingers are in current day Cologne

So when they split and went their separate ways may be very early but it looks likely that the areas of Tungri/Tongres (Green) and Batavians (Teal) as shown on the map you posted above are very good candidates....
Trying to reconcile whether the split between the WHEATON and TRIPP may have happened before or after arriving in Britannia.

MitchellSince1893
11-20-2015, 03:13 PM
Mitchell,

Of course at this point I can only wildly speculate.
The connections between TRIPP & WHEATON are much closer than that of DOOTZ and KIDD and we are a long way form pinning anything down but I looked at some of the other surnames Acque agitate recommended here http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4276-Group-Rib-U152-gt-L2-gt-FGC22501

van Benthem is in 1265 Neeuijk Netherlands
Moh in 1716 Randerath, Germany
Litzingers are in current day Cologne

So when they split and went their separate ways may be very early but it looks likely that the areas of Tungri/Tongres (Green) and Batavians (Teal) as shown on the map you posted above are very good candidates....
Trying to reconcile whether the split between the WHEATON and TRIPP may have happened before or after arriving in Britannia.

Saw this article and thought of you. History of Low Dutch settlements in England.
http://www.englisc-gateway.com/bbs/topic/16550-the-settlement-of-low-dutch-in-england/

...The immigration of Flemings went on steadily after the [Norman] Conquest and in such numbers that Henry I did not know what to do with them. There is a tradition that in his reign an incursion of the sea made thousands homeless in the Low Countries and that the refugees came to England. They were settled first on the Tweed, but four years later were transferred to Wales. These settlements were reinforced in 1105 and 1106, and according to Florence of Worcester Henry sent another large body to South Wales in 1111. The colonies at Haverfordwest, Tenby, Gower, and Ross may have been intended to keep the Welsh in check; at any rate that was the result, for the districts settled lost entirely their Welsh character, and the dialects spoken in them to-day retain in vocabulary a pronounced Flemish element. Some of the Flemish mercenaries who came in Stephen's time were deported to Wales...
The Flemish immigration into Scotland also was considerable. The shores of the Clyde received a large settlement at the time
1. 1.A.I. 22, 25-6, 29, 39-40; I.C. i. 187, 649; Th. i. 328-9, 349, ii. 154; Ram.D.C. 278, 369.[p. 2]of the expulsion of the Flemings from England by Henry II. A colony at Berwick held the Redhall there by the tenure of defending it against the English. Many Scottish armies had a Flemish element,...There is evidence of Flemish colonies at St. Andrews, Edinburgh, and Perth. The Low Dutch immigrants in Aberdeen and Moray were associated with the Hanse which existed in northern Scotland in the 13th century...
Froude states that there were 15,000 Flemings in London as early as 1527...it is said that in 1560 more than 10,000 came over, mainly from Antwerp, and in the following year 30,000..
There were Low Dutch communities in many towns; the largest was in London (in 1618 it had 10,000, mostly Flemings and Walloons), and there were settlements in Norwich, Sandwich (where 406 persons settled in 1561 to engage in weaving and fishing), Canterbury, Maidstone, Southampton, Lynn, Rye, Colchester, Ipswich, Thetford, Stamford, and Dover...

Kwheaton
11-20-2015, 03:30 PM
Saw this article and thought of you. History of Low Dutch settlements in England.
http://www.englisc-gateway.com/bbs/topic/16550-the-settlement-of-low-dutch-in-england/

Thank you for thinking of me. I think many English lines are going to turn out to have Flemish connections. And I mean a substantial number. There is a long history of trade right back to the Celtic tribes ie Belgae in Britain. My whole idea of country and people has undergone a massive transformation via DNA and historical research. And the patterns are so very interesting. I was reading about the Celts in the first century and how the women and families went to battle with the men and that is the same pattern you find in the 18th century in Scotland and in some parts of the American colonies. Traditions can run very deep...

Huijbregts
11-20-2015, 06:22 PM
to MitchellSince1893 about Flanders
You have been looking for relatives from Flanders. I have the reverse problem.
I am South-Dutch and my paternal ancestry is from Arendonk, Belgium, close to Tongeren of the Tungri. My Y-relatives and autosomal relatives are mostly British/Scottish.
I noticed that you posted your MDLP-K13-Ultimate-beta-calculator results. Our distance is 4.6% which is not bad; my distance to Hinxton4 is 5.4%.
I suggest that you compare with me on Gedmatch, kit FN123587.
My haplogroup is not R1b, but I2-M223-CTS1977-Y7829-Y7152. The only registrated member of Y7829* is Rasey. On the basis of STR-analyses it is probable that Rice and Royce belong here too.
M223 is considered a Germanic marker, which is prevalent in R1b-areas. I hope that one day the TMRCAs of M223 and R1b can be synchronized.

avalon
11-22-2015, 11:41 AM
Saw this article and thought of you. History of Low Dutch settlements in England.
http://www.englisc-gateway.com/bbs/topic/16550-the-settlement-of-low-dutch-in-england/

What is interesting about the Flemings in "Little England beyond Wales" is that although historically there has been a divide between the English speaking south and the Welsh speaking north of the county, going by the POBI clusters it looks as though there has been more mixing in recent centuries.

POBI did detect at K=12 a separation between north and south Pembrokeshire but the two clusters were still quite close to each other in their ancestry profiles. So, in terms of autosomal DNA I am not sure that the Flemings made too much of an impact on SW Wales. I would really like to see some detailed Y-DNA sampling from SW Wales.

Kwheaton
11-22-2015, 02:24 PM
I think they POBI project has a fundamental flaw in its design. By limiting the pool to those whose grandparents stayed pit you are presselecting a certain group. This may interject all sorts of unwelcome biases. And although I uderstand why, and what they were trying to get at I think they may have in many cases missed the boat (literally in fact). Those people that are more mobile, those moving for employment etc and those with more exotic admixes will not have been sampled. Thus giving a skewed view. So where I think the study interesting I am a bit skeptical. Looking at Y and mtDNA I think might give a better picture and if you really want to see the atDNA a study that tested 3 geneartions or more without regard to where grandparents were form might be more helpful and show more gene flow. I may be wrong...but that is my suspicion.

As to the connections. Elijas Oksanen's Fkanders and the Anglo-Norman World http://www.amazon.com/Flanders-Anglo-Norman-1066-1216-Cambridge-Medieval-ebook/dp/B009H7J2II/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1448201994&sr=1-2&keywords=flanders+and+the+anglo+norman might be of use. I have seen excerpts on line but do not own the book. But what I have read suggested a higher social strata for some of these Flemish....and they definitely moved around from estate to estate so not going to show up very well in a POBI study if even traces if their earlier origins remained.