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Jon
04-28-2015, 10:11 AM
Hi All,

This is a shout out to all Scottish clan historians (Ann S, Donald Maclean?), plus others interested in all things L193.

I was trying, in the aftermath of the excellent and exciting new L513 branch developments, to read up on more historical background stuff. I came across this on the first chief of the Macleans (the one Highland 'anomaly' within the mostly western/Ayrshire L193). It seems he spent a lot of his life in the Ayrshire/Galloway area; and some of the names of his many male descendents are interesting (including a John Dubh - Duff - which also comes up in L193).

I would greatly appreciate anyone who could read this over any offer thoughts...

http://macleanhistory.org/chiefs/gilleain-na-tuaighe-1st-chief

Jon

TigerMW
04-30-2015, 12:52 PM
Hi All,

This is a shout out to all Scottish clan historians (Ann S, Donald Maclean?), plus others interested in all things L193.

I was trying, in the aftermath of the excellent and exciting new L513 branch developments, to read up on more historical background stuff. I came across this on the first chief of the Macleans (the one Highland 'anomaly' within the mostly western/Ayrshire L193). It seems he spent a lot of his life in the Ayrshire/Galloway area; and some of the names of his many male descendents are interesting (including a John Dubh - Duff - which also comes up in L193).

I would greatly appreciate anyone who could read this over any offer thoughts...

http://macleanhistory.org/chiefs/gilleain-na-tuaighe-1st-chief

Jon
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-L513-Tree-Chart
McDaniel, McDonald and Knox fit in with the McLean/McClain folks as R1b-L21>DF13>L513>S5668>A7>S5979>L193>Z17816>Z17185 people.
Does this combination of surnames point to this specific geography?

We also have an early branch away, named Duff, who is Z17816+ but Z17185-.

Jon
04-30-2015, 07:41 PM
Thanks Mike. Duncan Maclean confirmed that there was a marriage by a leading Maclean into a leading Carrick family, perhaps creating the south-west Scotland connection. From what I read, there were also marriages into the Macdonalds as well. As for specific older clan connections and ancestry, I'm not sure. I will look into it though.

Dubhthach
05-01-2015, 02:29 PM
Ye'll see L513+/L193+ "Black's" as well not really surprising as Dubh is the colour black in Irish/Scottish Gaidhlig.



Mac DUIBH—IV—M'Duffe, MacDuff, Duff, and, by translation, Black; 'son of Dubh' (an Irish personal name meaning 'black'). Besides the Irish families bearing this surname, there is a Scottish clan Mac Duibh, of which the old Earls of Fife were the heads. See Mac Dhuibh.




Mac DHUIBH—IV—M'Cuffe, Cuffe; a variant of Mac Duibh, which see. See also Mag Dhuibh.




Mag DHUIBH—IV—Maguffe, M'Guffe, M'Guiff, MacGuff, MacGiff; 'son of Dubh' (black); a variant of Mac Dhuibh, which see; a scattered surname



Macbeth! Macbeth! Macbeth! Beware Macduff.
Beware the thane of Fife.



MACBETH
     Thou losest labor.
As easy mayst thou the intrenchant air
With thy keen sword impress as make me bleed.
Let fall thy blade on vulnerable crests;
I bear a charmd life, which must not yield
To one of woman born.

MACDUFF
     Despair thy charm,
And let the angel whom thou still hast served
Tell thee, Macduff was from his mother’s womb
Untimely ripped.


;)

Jon
05-03-2015, 12:59 PM
...I love the play! Macduff is a great part actually, ironically 'son of the dark one', opposed to MacBeatha ('son of life?!').

Dubh/Duff comes up a lot in the Scottish clans as a byname to distinguish certain individuals, e.g. 'Iain Dubh MacDonald', like Mhor, 'big' - Angus Mhor Maclean. Then they formed their own branches, which handed down Dubh/Duff rather than Macdonald, for instance. I was surprised that the names Black and Brown, despite being found all over Britain, are much more frequent in Scotland (bynames for darker-haired Celts?).

Lots to chew over...

Dubhthach
05-04-2015, 11:55 AM
Sure well "Dubh" as a descriptive nickname is generally to do with hair colour. Likewise for "Rua" (red), "Bu" (Buidhe -- yellow) and "Donn" (Brown). These are than often use to denote branches within a family based off the relevant nickname for the branch ancestor.

So for example within the O'Conor's of Connacht we see the mainline (eg. the descendants of Cathal Crobdearg Conchobhair) spilt into two branches in mid 14th centuries, these are the " Connchobhair Donn" (O'Conor Don -- eg "Brown O'Conor") and the " Conchobhair Rua" (O'Conor Roe eg. "Red O'Conor"). This is based off the cognomen carried by the specific ancestor of each branch within the wider O'Connor lienage. The "O'Conor Don" lineage survives to this day unbroken.