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Krefter
05-01-2015, 08:23 PM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4463&stc=1

Check this out!!! Tobus kindly plugged in the D-stats for me, because I don't know how to do it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FspZ5RUiQyfjTa9XEbraJerxfkpWse0Ru2IU-JJ3xJY/edit?usp=sharing

For understanding D-stats see here..

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IsrAHYMhDjQ11gZwg9oI44dEkcLeIqwpgO_aT3Cdd F8&authuser=0

This is what it reveals....

More than 2 branches of ancient Eurasians created EHG/SHG/Jap(it could be 3 and it could be 100). Jap and EHG/SHG share ancestry that WHG/ANE and Onge don't. There's no other way of interpreting this. Who the third(or 100) other branch(s) was(were) is the only mystery.

And that... Europeans descend from at least 4 distinct ancestors because of EHG ancestry. Everyone in Eurasia except Oceanians and a few others probably share this type of ancestry too.

My wild guess, which I don't have alot of confidence in(considering all the tree-like possibilities), is that there was a 3rd branch of "Crown Eurasians' independent of East and West Eurasians, that contributed ancestry to SHG/EHG and Japanese(and most East Asians).

Karelia_HG(the main EHG reference) had mtDNA C1 which is typical for Native Americans, and Native Americans are equally close to Karelia_HG and MA1. Is this because EHG and Native Americans share ancestry via ANE and a third branch of Crown Eurasians? Maybe C1 comes from those unknown Eurasians.

tamilgangster
05-02-2015, 01:28 AM
I think the source for this third branch is most likely the ust Ishim man

Chad Rohlfsen
05-02-2015, 01:38 AM
Japanese have "ANE". That's the problem. They should be closer. Atayal may be the best choice for East Asian. Han also have "ANE" and maybe South Asian.

Krefter
05-02-2015, 01:38 AM
I think the source for this third branch is most likely the ust Ishim man

I'd like to ask Tobus to test his relation to WHG/ANE/EHG/SHG and East Asians. From what I've heard he's equally related to all of them, so he was probably from the early days of Crown Eurasian. I wouldn't be surprised if he's somehow connected to this relation between East Asians and EHG/SHG.

Krefter
05-02-2015, 02:11 AM
Japanese have "ANE". That's the problem. They should be closer. Atayal may be the best choice for East Asian. Han also have "ANE" and maybe South Asian.

Then why are they equally close to MA1 and Loschbour and why is MA1 equally close to Japanese and Onge? I chose Japanese because they don't appear to have West Eurasian ancestry.

Dr_McNinja
05-02-2015, 02:28 AM
I had a similar idea. I think there was another branch of ancient Eurasian, a sort of ANE, whose signals are left in South Asia. It shows up as ANE/Oceanian/East-Eurasian in calculators.

So I think North Eurasians should be the middle branch in your diagram and mystery eurasian is an undiscovered branch of them.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-02-2015, 02:36 AM
Japanese have some West Eurasian. Pretty certain.

Generalissimo
05-02-2015, 02:47 AM
The Han from Haak et al. don't have any ANE. The smaller North Han sample does though.

The Japanese also have some ANE. This is probably the reason for their minor West Eurasian signal.

parasar
05-02-2015, 02:50 AM
I think the source for this third branch is most likely the ust Ishim man

He (not personally, but his group) is the source for all three branches. What is being deemed "Crown Eurasian" is essentially the Ust-Ishim type.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-02-2015, 03:13 AM
Han show up as 20%+ Nganasan and the rest is almost all Atayal, in the runs I've done.

tamilgangster
05-02-2015, 11:02 AM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4463&stc=1

Check this out!!! Tobus kindly plugged in the D-stats for me, because I don't know how to do it.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FspZ5RUiQyfjTa9XEbraJerxfkpWse0Ru2IU-JJ3xJY/edit?usp=sharing

For understanding D-stats see here..

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IsrAHYMhDjQ11gZwg9oI44dEkcLeIqwpgO_aT3Cdd F8&authuser=0

This is what it reveals....

More than 2 branches of ancient Eurasians created EHG/SHG/Jap(it could be 3 and it could be 100). Jap and EHG/SHG share ancestry that WHG/ANE and Onge don't. There's no other way of interpreting this. Who the third(or 100) other branch(s) was(were) is the only mystery.

And that... Europeans descend from at least 4 distinct ancestors because of EHG ancestry. Everyone in Eurasia except Oceanians and a few others probably share this type of ancestry too.

My wild guess, which I don't have alot of confidence in(considering all the tree-like possibilities), is that there was a 3rd branch of "Crown Eurasians' independent of East and West Eurasians, that contributed ancestry to SHG/EHG and Japanese(and most East Asians).

Karelia_HG(the main EHG reference) had mtDNA C1 which is typical for Native Americans, and Native Americans are equally close to Karelia_HG and MA1. Is this because EHG and Native Americans share ancestry via ANE and a third branch of Crown Eurasians? Maybe C1 comes from those unknown Eurasians.

Also its very unlikely the onge originated from the same lineage as east eurasian, it appears that way because southern mongoloid populations have admixture from the orginal OOA migration.

Hando
05-03-2015, 03:53 PM
The Han from Haak et al. don't have any ANE. The smaller North Han sample does though.

The Japanese also have some ANE. This is probably the reason for their minor West Eurasian signal.
Do you know what percentage of Japanese DNA is this minor West Eurasian signal? Are we talking autosomal DNA?

Hando
05-03-2015, 03:56 PM
Also its very unlikely the onge originated from the same lineage as east eurasian, it appears that way because southern mongoloid populations have admixture from the orginal OOA migration.

What modern populations are mainly descended from this original OOA migration? Oceanians? And how many were there? Two? Three?

tamilgangster
05-03-2015, 05:07 PM
What modern populations are mainly descended from this original OOA migration? Oceanians? And how many were there? Two? Three?

I'm referring to australoids/negrito populations

Megalophias
05-04-2015, 06:29 AM
Also its very unlikely the onge originated from the same lineage as east eurasian, it appears that way because southern mongoloid populations have admixture from the orginal OOA migration.
On what grounds are you claiming this? It isn't just Southern Mongoloids who are related to Onge and Papuan, it is northern East Asians and Amerindians as well.

Megalophias
05-04-2015, 06:58 AM
[IMG]More than 2 branches of ancient Eurasians created EHG/SHG/Jap(it could be 3 and it could be 100). Jap and EHG/SHG share ancestry that WHG/ANE and Onge don't. There's no other way of interpreting this. Who the third(or 100) other branch(s) was(were) is the only mystery.

Very interesting. The only problem I can see is that the signal of relatedness to Onge could just be so weak it is lost in noise - the best Z score is only -2.577 for Karelia_HG and Han, and if the East Asian affinity of EHG came from recent Siberian admixture as seems likely you'd expect it to be much more closely related to northern East Asians than to Onge.

But I think the idea is plausible.

tamilgangster
05-04-2015, 09:29 AM
On what grounds are you claiming this? It isn't just Southern Mongoloids who are related to Onge and Papuan, it is northern East Asians and Amerindians as well.

Im claiming it on the grounds that East Eurasians split from a common ancestor as west eurasians, and that the Onge originated from the original OOA migration which is a different lineage from basal eurasians

tamilgangster
05-04-2015, 09:32 AM
Japanese have "ANE". That's the problem. They should be closer. Atayal may be the best choice for East Asian. Han also have "ANE" and maybe South Asian.

Han chinese dont have south asian or much visible amounts of ANE, they are a good sample for east eurasians. Atayal might have ASE thought. Japeanese ANE is most likely from the AInu/jomon people

Hando
05-04-2015, 04:21 PM
Han chinese dont have south asian or much visible amounts of ANE, they are a good sample for east eurasians. Atayal might have ASE thought. Japeanese ANE is most likely from the AInu/jomon people
If Japanese have ANE do Koreans and Okinawans also have ANE?

tamilgangster
05-04-2015, 04:28 PM
If Japanese have ANE do Koreans and Okinawans also have ANE?

I doubt that Koreans have much ANE unless it's from Mongolian or Siberian origin. Okinawans I'm not too sure about

Megalophias
05-04-2015, 06:39 PM
Im claiming it on the grounds that East Eurasians split from a common ancestor as west eurasians, and that the Onge originated from the original OOA migration which is a different lineage from basal eurasians

Why do you think Onge come from a different branch than East and West Eurasians do?

Hando
05-05-2015, 01:07 AM
I doubt that Koreans have much ANE unless it's from Mongolian or Siberian origin. Okinawans I'm not too sure about

But the Japanese Yayoi rice farmers migrated to Japan from Korea? And the Japanese Imperial family and others are descended from Korea's Baekje people as far as I know. Perhaps I am wrong?

J Man
05-05-2015, 01:09 AM
Japanese have "ANE". That's the problem. They should be closer. Atayal may be the best choice for East Asian. Han also have "ANE" and maybe South Asian.

This is off topic for this thread but I saw that you posted this recently in the comments section at Eurogenes for the K10 Steppe test.


''Ladies and Gents,

I'm perfecting a new test for Europeans. It's sitting at K11, at the moment. I'll use the next couple days to tweak it. I may fine tune it for West Asians, as well.''



How is that coming along? Will you and David be releasing it for us test junkies to use? :)

Chad Rohlfsen
05-05-2015, 01:27 AM
Working on it

tamilgangster
05-05-2015, 01:33 AM
But the Japanese Yayoi rice farmers migrated to Japan from Korea? And the Japanese Imperial family and others are descended from Korea's Baekje people as far as I know. Perhaps I am wrong?

the ANE in japan is not from the yayoi its from the ainu or jomon people

tamilgangster
05-14-2015, 10:36 AM
Why do you think Onge come from a different branch than East and West Eurasians do?

THe onge are descended from the OOA bottleneck, yes, but I dont think that Onge are from the same branch as east eurasians. West eurasian East Eurasian split occured later in siberia, onge/ASE came from the great coastal migration, which branched off earlier.

East eurasian split happened around 45000 years ago, onge have been isolated for 60,000 years

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2824389/DNA-study-narrows-Eurasian-split-East-Asians.html

Kale
05-14-2015, 01:29 PM
THe onge are descended from the OOA bottleneck, yes, but I dont think that Onge are from the same branch as east eurasians. West eurasian East Eurasian split occured later in siberia, onge/ASE came from the great coastal migration, which branched off earlier.

East eurasian split happened around 45000 years ago, onge have been isolated for 60,000 years

Chimp Onge Loschbour Japanese 0.0586 12.384 16786 18874 351075
Chimp Kostenki14 Japanese Onge -0.0045 -1.106 15836 15693 332566
Chimp Loschbour Japanese Onge -0.0057 -1.466 16978 16786 351075

Onge significantly prefer East Eurasian over West Eurasian, and West Eurasian has no significant preference between East Eurasian and Onge. So if Onge are descended an earlier population, it is only a small portion of their ancestry.