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View Full Version : Babenburg Dynasty DNA looks like L48



breckenheimer
11-13-2012, 11:23 PM
I saw a post on the Rootsweb forum (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-11/1352442179) about this new paper (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2012.10.012), and was suprised there wasn't much discussion on it. Since the Babenbergs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babenberg) were descendents of the Robertians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertians), their YDNA would also be that of the Capetian and Bourbon Dynasties. At any rate, the STRs given for Leopold III with DYS 390=23 and DYS 460=13 appear to be L48.

A few days ago it was free, but today it looks like I have to pay.

http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigen.2012.10.012

Abstract
The successful marriage policy of margrave Leopold III increased the importance of the House of Babenberg in late medieval Austria (12th century). Historical documentation is inconclusive in providing evidence whether or not his eldest son Adalbert derived from an earlier relationship or from the marriage with King Henry IV's daughter Agnes of Waiblingen, with whom Leopold is considered to have had 17 children. As a matter of fact Adalbert was ignored in the line of succession in favor of a younger brother, Leopold IV, which has led to long term historical discussions. Human remains attributed to these individuals were subjected to DNA analysis. Autosomal, Y-chromosomal and mitochondrial DNA analyses brought successful results, which suggested that Leopold III, Agnes and Adalbert were related in parent–son constellation, in contrast to historical considerations. A possible mix-up of Adalbert's remains with those of his younger brother Ernst could not be confirmed by DNA analysis.

Wing Genealogist
11-19-2012, 03:40 PM
Thanks for the info!!

Diana
06-05-2013, 04:50 PM
This is super interesting and was mentioned on the R1b U106 yahoo group and the thread was closed. I don't follow that group much so missed if anyone compared these results to that of Ergolding?

Jean M
06-05-2013, 05:18 PM
Since the Babenbergs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babenberg) were descendents of the Robertians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robertians), their YDNA would also be that of the Capetian and Bourbon Dynasties.

Louis XVI of France carried Y-DNA G2a (Lalueza-Fox 2010), and a partial Y-STR profile matching that of Louis XVI was extracted from his ancestor Henri IV (Charlier 2012). Their earliest known ancestor in the direct male line was Robert the Strong d. 866. http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

So I don't see how a direct male descendant could be L48.

Comment on Google group: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/soc.genealogy.medieval/0Axg3xsNgBM and Rootsweb: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2012-11/1353784202


I've obtained this paper and read it. I have to say that I disagree with their conclusions. They have demonstrated that the remains in tombs from Klosterneuburg attributed to Leopold, Agnes and Adalbert are parents and son. What they don't address is any evidence about how these remains are attributed to the people claimed. They do note documented movement of the remains of some of the family in the 13th century which ought to have led to the remains of Ernst and Adalbert being buried together at Heiligenkreuz, but only one set of remains was recovered from the grave (in 1739), and these are genetically unrelated to the parents from Klosterneuburg.

So we know that a family is buried at Klosterneuburg, and perhaps the parents are Leopold and Agnes, but which of their sons or putative sons is buried with them is impossible to tell. The tombs were opened and remains moved in the 13th century, and there has been plenty of other opportunity for remains to be moved or exchanged in the nine centuries since the burials. Leopold and Agnes had several other sons (Genealogics lists three), so unless there is good documentary evidence that they were buried elsewhere, there must be a good chance that one of them is the remains found in the tomb.

So for me there is insufficient evidence that the analysed remains are those of the four individuals claimed. Without that the genealogical claims of the paper are unsubstantiated.

Diana
06-05-2013, 07:40 PM
Some believe there was a break (Infidelity)in the line back in Spain. So still a good possibility, I wouldn't write them out of the books just yet. :-)

Diana
10-09-2013, 06:23 PM
Some believe there was a break (Infidelity)in the line back in Spain. So still a good possibility, I wouldn't write them out of the books just yet. :-)

"Thread: DNA data obtained from blood of Louis XVI"

For an update..

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/10/house-of-bourbon-belonged-to-y.html

Wing Genealogist
10-09-2013, 08:23 PM
"Thread: DNA data obtained from blood of Louis XVI"

For an update! Seems they are L48,

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2013/10/house-of-bourbon-belonged-to-y.html

The research indicated the haplotype of the three individuals tested was Z381 (which is found above L48). However, according to the R1b-U106 Haplogroup Project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=ysnp everyone thus far found to be Z381+ has been found to also be positive for one of its three known subclades:

Z301 (the parent clade of L48), Z156, or (the much smaller) M323

Ray

Diana
10-09-2013, 09:09 PM
Yes, thank you Ray. I edited L48. Richard Rocca did say that.

The research indicated the haplotype of the three individuals tested was Z381 (which is found above L48). However, according to the R1b-U106 Haplogroup Project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/U106/default.aspx?section=ysnp everyone thus far found to be Z381+ has been found to also be positive for one of its three known subclades:

Z301 (the parent clade of L48), Z156, or (the much smaller) M323

Ray

Bolgeris
10-09-2013, 09:16 PM
Woow... very interesting..

Fire Haired
10-09-2013, 09:42 PM
Kings of France may have been R1b-U106 after all (rather than G2a3b1) (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29144-Kings-of-France-may-have-been-R1b-U106-after-all-(rather-than-G2a3b1))


A new study (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/ejhg2013211a.html) by Larmuseau et al. (2013) from Leuven University in Belgium (the same team behind the Brabant Y-DNA Project (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25463-Belgian-Y-DNA-from-the-Brabant-Project)) tested the Y-DNA of three living members of the House of Bourbon, one descending from Louis XIII of France and two from Philip V of Spain (himself a grandson of Louis XIV). They concluded that all three men share the same STR haplotype and belonged to haplogroup R1b-U106 (Z381* subclade), contradicting the earlier studies that identified the presumed remains of Henry IV and Louis XVI as members of haplogroup G2a. The published mtDNA sequence of Henry IV's presumed head also conflicted with the mtDNA of a series of relatives, bringing additional evidence that the head did not belong to the French monarch.

Note that R1b-Z381 is also the haplogroup of the House of Wettin, which includes the current Belgian royal family, and has included Kings Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII and George VI of the United Kingdom, the Kings of Portugal from 1853 to 1910, the Kings of Bulgaria from 1887 to 1946.