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View Full Version : My Y-37. Need some help, please!



Chad Rohlfsen
05-03-2015, 05:07 PM
My Y-37 results. They only predict m-269. Maybe you guys can figure out something deeper. Here they are.

4470

ArmandoR1b
05-04-2015, 02:22 AM
Do you have close matches at 37 markers? If not you will have to get SNPs tests. Yseq dropped the price to $17.50 per SNP. If I remember correctly you have already had a 23andme test and you show negative for U106, L21, and U152 so the next SNP to test is P312. www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=100

If you never had the 23andme test then you should get the U106 test at www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=101

Chad Rohlfsen
05-04-2015, 04:48 AM
P312 it is. Thanks!! Why couldn't they get past M269? I'm a little irritated that I spent that much money, for less than 23andme gave.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-04-2015, 04:48 AM
I only have 2 matches at 12 markers.

Afshar
05-04-2015, 05:06 AM
P312 it is. Thanks!! Why couldn't they get past M269? I'm a little irritated that I spent that much money, for less than 23andme gave.

And the best thing is that its only a prediction. You need SNP testing for confirmation.

VinceT
05-04-2015, 06:20 AM
To be fair, you have an unusual haplotype, although it's likely somewhere below R-L51. If P312 is negative the next best guess is S1194, DF100, and you should strongly consider joining the R-M269 (P312- U106-) project at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/background

Chad Rohlfsen
05-04-2015, 02:34 PM
Thanks, guys! I appreciate it!

Joe B
05-04-2015, 04:08 PM
Thanks, guys! I appreciate it!

Hey Chad,
What y-haplogroup did 23andme give you?
Vince T has great advice (always does) about joining the R1b-M269 (P312- U106-) DNA Project (aka ht35 Project) and how the phylogenetic bracketing will go. ArmandoR1b is right on about testing P312.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-04-2015, 05:01 PM
L11. I show l151-p310,311.

vettor
05-04-2015, 06:48 PM
@Chad

if you used 23andme, why not use this program below which will get your positive and negative SNP

http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html

ADW_1981
05-04-2015, 07:10 PM
It sounds like you already did 23andMe, I would take the risk and immediately test DF27 since you're confirmed U106-. Just my take on things though.

ArmandoR1b
05-05-2015, 01:37 AM
@Chad

if you used 23andme, why not use this program below which will get your positive and negative SNP

http://www.y-str.org/2014/04/23andme-to-ysnps.html

He has already done that. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3839-The-Major-Y-Chromosome-Haplogroup-R1b-M269-in-West-Europe-Lucotte-et-al-2015&p=70711&viewfull=1#post70711 which means I had remembered correctly.

ArmandoR1b
05-05-2015, 01:41 AM
It sounds like you already did 23andMe, I would take the risk and immediately test DF27 since you're confirmed U106-. Just my take on things though.

He very well could be P312- so it is best that he gets the P312 test first. At which point he would need to order S1194 http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10707 per the tree in the aka ht35 Project at https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ht-3-5new/about/goals

If he were Hispanic then DF27 would be the better choice.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-05-2015, 01:56 AM
Okay, I've ordered P312. How long do those results usually take?

ArmandoR1b
05-05-2015, 02:01 AM
Okay, I've ordered P312. How long do those results usually take?

Just a few weeks after they get your sample.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-05-2015, 02:37 AM
They don't use the sample I've already provided?

TŠltos
05-05-2015, 02:56 AM
They don't use the sample I've already provided?
They will use that one.

ArmandoR1b
05-05-2015, 05:04 AM
They don't use the sample I've already provided?

Did you order the test through FTDNA or YSEQ? FTDNA uses the sample you have already provided. If you ordered through YSEQ which is cheaper and faster then you have to provide a new sample if you haven't tested with them before.

If you ordered through FTDNA you can still cancel your order by opening a request at https://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx and then order the YSEQ test at http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=100

Chad Rohlfsen
05-05-2015, 03:09 PM
Did you order the test through FTDNA or YSEQ? FTDNA uses the sample you have already provided. If you ordered through YSEQ which is cheaper and faster then you have to provide a new sample if you haven't tested with them before.

If you ordered through FTDNA you can still cancel your order by opening a request at https://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx and then order the YSEQ test at http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=100

I used FTDNA.

ArmandoR1b
05-06-2015, 04:23 PM
I used FTDNA.

SNP tests at FTDNA are taking 6 to 7 weeks. https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/testing-process/return-kit-long-will-results-take/

It's too late to cancel that test now. If you are positive for P312 you should consider the DF27 test at Yseq.

Or you could just get the BigY test at FTDNA. I should have also mentioned that in my initial post.

VinceT
05-07-2015, 06:24 AM
Or you could just get the BigY test at FTDNA. I should have also mentioned that in my initial post.

That's the catch. Every $39 spent on testing single SNPs that may well be in someone elses' paternal lineage is $39 less to apply towards a Big Y or Y Elite test to discover SNPs in your own paternal lineage.

TigerMW
05-07-2015, 03:37 PM
My Y-37 results. They only predict m-269. Maybe you guys can figure out something deeper...
You really need 67 STRs at a minimum, in R1b. I just did this last week for a similar question in another forum. Keep in mind the STR panels are not ordered by mutation rate or in any kind of hierarchy sequence. It's hard to tell what STRs will be most important.

At 12 STRs, I have 45 with GD=0 or GD=1. Many, probably most are of haplogroups no closer than 4000 to 7000 years ago. There are 2 of the 46 that might eventually prove out but they must test deeper than they have.

At 25 STRs, I have no GD=0 or GD=1 matches. I have 7 GD=2 so you can see I winnowed out the ones above that matched at 12. None of my 25 STR matches are in the 12 STR matching group so my conclusion is that a 12 STR match is pretty much worthless. There is one very noteworthy insight for me at 25 STRs. 3 of those 7 matches are surnamed Morgan. That turns out to be important.

At 37 STRs, I have only 2 matches, 1 at GD=3 and 1 at GD=4. Neither were on my my 25 STR match list so you can see I was really baffled at this point. I also lost my 3 Morgan matches at 25 STRs. However, all is not lost as I found out later.

At 67 STRs, my number of matches grew from 2 to 17. That is counter-intuitive to most. I'll repeat. At 37 STRs, I have 2 matches while at 67 I have 17. None of my 67 STR matches are closer than GD=4, though. I found that two of the Morgan's re-appeared, but very importantly, almost all of the surnames formed a pattern. The pattern was of a Welsh origin. This could not be denied. My immigrant gg-grandfather is from Ireland but his DNA matches show a very strong Welsh bias. There was one strange new surname on the list - Illback. It was low on my priority list.

At 111 STRs, the number of matches dropped back down, now to 3. I lost my Morgan matches but now the genetic data was becoming undeniable. I had two people of GD=10 at 111 and one at GD=6. GD=6 at 111 is very good and so this became a high priority, but the surname was Illback. I finally reached Dr. Illback. He explained there was a name change and his grandfather was surnamed Welsh and was from Co. Kilkenny, Ireland. Well, my name is Walsh and my gg-grandfather is from Co. Kilkenny. Bingo, we've both done Big Y's and we have an SNP or two that only we two share.

At 111, another match moved into the #2 position from seemingly no where. The surname is Jackman. When I contacted them, they explained that even though their MDKA was from Ireland their surname was Cambro-Norman (think Welsh-Norman.) That matches what old Irish priests wrote about my type of Walsh. Our GDs put as splitting about 1000 years ago, just about right for launching from Wales. Oh yeah, the launch point was South Wales, the part of Wales conquered first by the Normans - the region named Glamorgan. The Morgan surnamed people were not a match by accident.

Really, I'm not sure that we shouldn't just all be going to 111 STRs. We have over 4,000 people in L21 in public projects with 111 STRs. I think the 68-111 panel is a "smoother" set of STRs, picked for their purpose.

Joe B
05-07-2015, 06:24 PM
That's the catch. Every $39 spent on testing single SNPs that may well be in someone elses' paternal lineage is $39 less to apply towards a Big Y or Y Elite test to discover SNPs in your own paternal lineage.
I'm seeing a growing trend of spending that $39 for the initial or first in a long time SNP test. Then saying screw it and ordering NGS (BIG Y, Y Elite) next. For many it's because they have regained confidence in the phylogenetic science after many years of disappointments. Recently had a guy who was so reluctant to even join our haplogroup project because previous testing led him nowhere. He's been at this since 2004 and had ordered STR 111, Deep clades, Geno 2.0 etc. Everything except Z2103 or Z2105 and hasn't done anything in several years. Got him to take the new Z2109 SNP test that is found on our project tree. Turned out positive and now sees his prospective place on the tree. He's excited and intrigued and ordered BIG Y. I think the kicker for him was the prospect of discovering new SNPs for the next generation of y-DNA testers.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-23-2015, 03:58 AM
Results are back! I'm P312+. What's the next step?

Gray Fox
05-23-2015, 04:37 AM
Results are back! I'm P312+. What's the next step?

L238, DF99 etc.? I would say DF27, but I believe you're y-line is Scandinavian if I'm not mistaken. I'd just run through the major ones using yseq until I got hit. Unless you're matching some sort of str pattern that is specific to a particular group, then you're really just shooting in the dark.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-23-2015, 04:39 AM
L238, DF99 etc.? I would say DF27, but I believe you're y-line is Scandinavian if I'm not mistaken. I'd just run through the major ones using yseq until I got hit. Unless you're matching some sort of str pattern that is specific to a particular group, then you're really just shooting in the dark.

Yes, my direct line is Danish. Should I try DF99, first?

Gray Fox
05-23-2015, 04:42 AM
Yes, my direct line is Danish. Should I try DF99, first?

That or L238, which is specifically found in Scandinavia. DF99 is a bit more widespread. L238 is probably your best bet.

Here's some additional str info from the L238 project..

"This project aims to explore the subclade. Please join if you are confirmed L238+, or strongly suspected through DYS385=11-13 and DYS439=11 at Y12, perhaps also DYS446=15 at Y67."

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-l238/about/background

Chad Rohlfsen
05-23-2015, 04:44 AM
That or L238, which is specifically found in Scandinavia. DF99 is a bit more widespread. L238 is probably your best bet.

Okay, I'll order it. Is there a list of coupons, somewhere?

Gray Fox
05-23-2015, 04:48 AM
Okay, I'll order it. Is there a list of coupons, somewhere?

Not sure. I've not ordered snp's from Ftdna for a while, if that's what you're referring to.

rms2
05-23-2015, 01:22 PM
Anything is possible, but your haplotype does not look like L238 is likely. Take a look at the L238+ haplotypes at the R1b-P312 Project: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c?iframe=yresults

I think you might be better off to try DF19 (unless you've already tested for it and are negative). But really, you ought to try all the major subclades under P312, because you could belong to any of them (or none of them).

Chad Rohlfsen
05-23-2015, 01:31 PM
I'll add 2-3 snp's, as soon as I get my hands on some coupons.

Gray Fox
05-23-2015, 01:33 PM
Rich is correct regarding the L238 str pattern. I forgot you had posted your str results, so I didn't compare them. Sorry about that! Being negative for L21 and U152 it looks like DF19, DF99 and DF27 all have a chance.

rms2
05-23-2015, 01:41 PM
Rich is correct regarding the L238 str pattern. I forgot you had posted your str results, so I didn't compare them. Sorry about that! Being negative for L21 and U152 it looks like DF19, DF99 and DF27 all have a chance.

I didn't read every post in this thread, so I missed that he is already known to be negative for L21 and U152. I noticed there seem to be a lot of DF19+ guys with 385=11-15. Chad has 11-16 there, which would be a simple one step move from 15 to 16 at 385b. That's not a lot to go on, and I did not really attempt to compare all his markers to the DF19 guys, but a DF19+ result wouldn't surprise me.

TŠltos
05-23-2015, 01:47 PM
I'll add 2-3 snp's, as soon as I get my hands on some coupons.

Maybe order through YSEQ now. SNPs are at a bargain price-$17.50. I don't think FTDNA has anymore coupons at this time. https://www.yseq.net/

Chad Rohlfsen
05-23-2015, 01:49 PM
Hmm.. my results at YS385 (11-16) only match P312**, as far as I can see. Everything else is 11-15, 12-15, 12-14, etc. Is that correct?

I can't find anyone that is 11-16, but an 11-17 on P312** There's a couple 12-16 on DF88, DF27, I believe.

rms2
05-23-2015, 01:59 PM
Hmm.. my results at YS385 (11-16) only match P312**, as far as I can see. Everything else is 11-15, 12-15, 12-14, etc. Is that correct?

I can't find anyone that is 11-16, but an 11-17 on P312** There's a couple 12-16 on DF88, DF27, I believe.

Yeah, it's not much to go on, but DF19 seems to be lousy with guys who have 11-15. A small jump to 16 at 385b, especially since 385 is a relatively quick mutator, is easily done. Of course, that doesn't mean you are DF19, but I think DF19 is one of the more common P312 clades along the North Sea littoral.

Chad Rohlfsen
05-23-2015, 02:05 PM
Yeah, it's not much to go on, but DF19 seems to be lousy with guys who have 11-15. A small jump to 16 at 385b, especially since 385 is a relatively quick mutator, is easily done. Of course, that doesn't mean you are DF19, but I think DF19 is one of the more common P312 clades along the North Sea littoral.

If there were 2-3 you could choose from, which way would you go?

rms2
05-23-2015, 02:16 PM
If there were 2-3 you could choose from, which way would you go?

I would go with DF19 and DF27 first, because they are pretty big clades. If they come up negative, try DF99.

ArmandoR1b
05-23-2015, 04:29 PM
I would test for DF27 for the following reasons:

I looked for people from Denmark in the R1b-P312, P312*, and Subclades of DF99, L238, DF19 Project. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/default.aspx?section=yresults that were P312+ U152- L21-. There are three and they are being asked to order a DF27 test.

It's a shame those people haven't chosen to get a DF27 test.


I also looked for people from Denmark in the DF27 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27?iframe=yresults that weren't in the previous project. There are 3 but B1442 was in the previous project and in this one it mentions that he matches NS Cluster. Kit N75137 has DYS385=11-15

These are the kits that I looked at -

Kit Name Country HG Other tests
N75112 LARSEN of BrÝndby, DK Denmark R-P312 U152- L21- SRY2627- M153-
N75137 Morten Christensen Hegelund, ca 1500 and d. 1574 Denmark R-P312 U152- L21- SRY2627- M153- DYS385=11-15
N108812 Erik Eriksen Okkels, b. 1702, Rind Parish, Denmark Denmark R-Z220
63184 Ditlev Skantz of Frederiksborg Amt, DK Denmark R-Z212
157109 Knud Madsen (1737- ) of Allerup, Odense A., DK Denmark R-SRY2627
B1442 Hans Jensen, d. 1822 Denmark R-M269 none NS cluster

ADW_1981
05-23-2015, 11:05 PM
Agreed, DF27 is the most logical choice at this point if cash is tight. There are now 1000+ members in the DF27 project.

Chad Rohlfsen
06-09-2015, 04:52 PM
Well, I'm DF27+. Is there a good place to look next?

ArmandoR1b
06-09-2015, 05:13 PM
Congrats. If you want to save money and time you should get the DF27panel at http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10749

If you are going to continue down the SNP tree at FTDNA then get the Z195 test.

Chad Rohlfsen
06-09-2015, 05:23 PM
What is typically found in Denmark?

ArmandoR1b
06-09-2015, 06:56 PM
There are two main branches of Z195. One leads to Z220 and the other leads to SRY2627. There really aren't enough participants from Denmark to make the determination as to which branch of Z195 is more common in Denmark.

The BigY test at FTDNA or the DF27panel at Yseq test multiple SNPs all at once and leaves out guesswork and saves money in the long run. The BigY is especially cheaper since it will identify previously unknown branches once there are enough people that you can be compared to.