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IrishMorgan
05-09-2015, 10:52 PM
Dear Anthrogenica community Y-DNA experts and other Irish historians:

I'm trying to formulate a theory about the origins and migration pattern of one of the Z253 subclades, variously known as 1716-11 / A17 / S847, and I'm interested in any feedback, ranging from specific data points, to speculative theories, to methodology suggestions.

Awhile ago I took a large set of STR marker data from our cluster members and ran it through Dean McGee's Y-Utility (http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html). Here are the results:
https://e8245a9522e98dd6d928fb10498cd7ee8ba1007f.googledri ve.com/host/0B3DiM71UQ-rlZU81Z1hMQkdZRUk/

I like to scroll down to the bottom part and look at the estimated years TMRCA, both between individuals in the cluster and the mean. I've searched and searched for relevant patterns, but I almost always find reasons to doubt conclusions that I might draw from the data. Below are some of my assumptions and conclusions:

Mode is primarily influenced by who has taken the test most. For example, people whose families have migrated to US and other countries like Canada and Australia where FTDNA and related tests are most popular are much more strongly represented than people who stayed in Ireland or migrated to other European countries.
Mode may secondarily be influenced by economic or reproductive success of one of the forbearers of a particular surname (could this partially explain the preponderance of Butlers?) or by having a person who has very actively been doing a surname project and recruiting new testers (e.g., Mangam).
Conversely, there may be some bottlenecks for some branches, due to war, famine, or other historical and economic factors.
In any case being far from the mode doesn't tell us much: it doesn't mean that your haplotype is older, only that fewer people from your family line have tested. Am I right here?
However, the known origins (along with known historical information about the surnames) of the kits supports possible theories about origin and migration.
Also, I would think that known SNP results might be more telling in terms of origin and migration, but I have doubts about how to apply that as well.
For example, if we think of the established SNP tree as if it were like an upside down version of a real tree (with "Adam" at the top), does information about people who are on higher branches or nodes on the tree tell us anything about the place of origin of that SNP?
To make this more specific to the A17 haplogroup, there are about 25-30 people to date in this haplogroup who have done Big-Y. I (Morgan) happen to be the first branch off of A17. In rough order of the branches, the surnames are Morgan, Mangum, Cannady, Murta, Tomkins, Christie, McKenna, Yorke, and Roderick.
Based on common SNP counts and the average mutation rate for SNPs uncovered in Big-Y, we estimate that Morgan branched off about 2100 years ago, and the branches at the bottom of the tree like Yorke and Roderick were more like 1000 years ago.
If we were to plot known or estimated origins of people on this SNP tree, would we be able to decipher a migration pattern? Or does having just one or two people on each branch (in most cases) make it impossible to draw any conclusions?


Here is my own, admittedly unscientific, theory of the migration pattern of A17 and its subclades: a Z253 man from what is now southern Scotland or northern England migrated to Ireland 2000+ years ago. This could have been before Roman times, but was likely not more than 3000 years ago. They settled in central Ireland, in what is now Co. Longford or Co. Westmeath. During and after the Norman Invasion they became more dispersed, moving mostly south, then east and west. Some of course moved to other countries in Europe, and many who stayed took on names of their conquerors, whether due to NPEs or Anglicization of Irish names.

My theory of the origin of my line of Morgans is that it comes from the Ua Muiregáin of Tethba, somewhat along the lines of this post: http://www.turtlebunbury.com/history/history_family/hist_family_morgan.html. But that may be totally wishful thinking. There are several Morgans who still live in that part of Westmeath and Longford, but to date I am the only Morgan to have tested positive for A17.

Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions?

TigerMW
05-14-2015, 01:58 AM
Dear Anthrogenica community Y-DNA experts and other Irish historians:

I'm trying to formulate a theory about the origins and migration pattern of one of the Z253 subclades, variously known as 1716-11 / A17 / S847, and I'm interested in any feedback, ranging from specific data points, to speculative theories, to methodology suggestions.

Awhile ago I took a large set of STR marker data from our cluster members and ran it through Dean McGee's Y-Utility (http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html). Here are the results:
https://e8245a9522e98dd6d928fb10498cd7ee8ba1007f.googledri ve.com/host/0B3DiM71UQ-rlZU81Z1hMQkdZRUk/

I like to scroll down to the bottom part and look at the estimated years TMRCA, both between individuals in the cluster and the mean. I've searched and searched for relevant patterns, but I almost always find reasons to doubt conclusions that I might draw from the data. Below are some of my assumptions and conclusions:

Mode is primarily influenced by who has taken the test most. For example, people whose families have migrated to US and other countries like Canada and Australia where FTDNA and related tests are most popular are much more strongly represented than people who stayed in Ireland or migrated to other European countries.
Mode may secondarily be influenced by economic or reproductive success of one of the forbearers of a particular surname (could this partially explain the preponderance of Butlers?) or by having a person who has very actively been doing a surname project and recruiting new testers (e.g., Mangam).
Conversely, there may be some bottlenecks for some branches, due to war, famine, or other historical and economic factors.
In any case being far from the mode doesn't tell us much: it doesn't mean that your haplotype is older, only that fewer people from your family line have tested. Am I right here?
However, the known origins (along with known historical information about the surnames) of the kits supports possible theories about origin and migration.
Also, I would think that known SNP results might be more telling in terms of origin and migration, but I have doubts about how to apply that as well.
For example, if we think of the established SNP tree as if it were like an upside down version of a real tree (with "Adam" at the top), does information about people who are on higher branches or nodes on the tree tell us anything about the place of origin of that SNP?
To make this more specific to the A17 haplogroup, there are about 25-30 people to date in this haplogroup who have done Big-Y. I (Morgan) happen to be the first branch off of A17. In rough order of the branches, the surnames are Morgan, Mangum, Cannady, Murta, Tomkins, Christie, McKenna, Yorke, and Roderick.
Based on common SNP counts and the average mutation rate for SNPs uncovered in Big-Y, we estimate that Morgan branched off about 2100 years ago, and the branches at the bottom of the tree like Yorke and Roderick were more like 1000 years ago.
If we were to plot known or estimated origins of people on this SNP tree, would we be able to decipher a migration pattern? Or does having just one or two people on each branch (in most cases) make it impossible to draw any conclusions?


Here is my own, admittedly unscientific, theory of the migration pattern of A17 and its subclades: a Z253 man from what is now southern Scotland or northern England migrated to Ireland 2000+ years ago. This could have been before Roman times, but was likely not more than 3000 years ago. They settled in central Ireland, in what is now Co. Longford or Co. Westmeath. During and after the Norman Invasion they became more dispersed, moving mostly south, then east and west. Some of course moved to other countries in Europe, and many who stayed took on names of their conquerors, whether due to NPEs or Anglicization of Irish names.

My theory of the origin of my line of Morgans is that it comes from the Ua Muiregáin of Tethba, somewhat along the lines of this post: http://www.turtlebunbury.com/history/history_family/hist_family_morgan.html. But that may be totally wishful thinking. There are several Morgans who still live in that part of Westmeath and Longford, but to date I am the only Morgan to have tested positive for A17.

Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions?

I am related to a Morgan group and also several Welsh surnames. Morgan should probably be coinsidered Welsh, in its infancy anyway, as ipeople from the area of Wales called Glamorgan typically picked up that surname.

IrishMorgan
05-16-2015, 08:11 PM
I agree that the name Morgan typically has Welsh origins, even for many Irish Morgans. This would be especially true for Morgans on the southern coast of Ireland and in the Dublin to Louth corridor, where more than half the Morgans in Ireland are found. However, for central and western Ireland I think that Morgan is typically an Anglicization of Irish names like Merrigan, Morihan, and Mannion, and names that preceded those. 4595 See for example this page from The All New Surnames of Ireland (http://www.amazon.com/The-All-New-Surnames-Ireland/dp/0940134977), which references MacLysaght as well as more recent analysis of surname data in Ireland.

But we digress from the original point of my post, which was to see if anyone sees any patterns in the names or data for 1716-11 / A17 / S847 that would explain its origins perhaps 1500 - 2500 years ago.

mcg11
05-16-2015, 08:58 PM
I agree that the name Morgan typically has Welsh origins, even for many Irish Morgans. This would be especially true for Morgans on the southern coast of Ireland and in the Dublin to Louth corridor, where more than half the Morgans in Ireland are found. However, for central and western Ireland I think that Morgan is typically an Anglicization of Irish names like Merrigan, Morihan, and Mannion, and names that preceded those. 4595 See for example this page from The All New Surnames of Ireland (http://www.amazon.com/The-All-New-Surnames-Ireland/dp/0940134977), which references MacLysaght as well as more recent analysis of surname data in Ireland.

But we digress from the original point of my post, which was to see if anyone sees any patterns in the names or data for 1716-11 / A17 / S847 that would explain its origins perhaps 1500 - 2500 years ago.

I am neither an expert or a Irish Historian but, since naming really only began for the masses c. 1200 - 1400 AD, I see little help with naming as a means of estimating geographical information.

e.g. My name is McGregor, but I am R-L1066, and am Ysearch z5hg3. My earliest ancestor is a Patrick Gregor McGregory(ie). I have only one mutation after R-L1066, and that is an STR deletion. I don't believe I am a Pict or a Scotti. I consider my heritage as native Briton. But it wouldn't surprise me if some of my ancestors spent time on the other side of the Irish sea?

To add fuel to the fire, my MtDNA is V8 from my mother, she was born in Scotland, but her mother was born in Ireland. 30%+ of the V8's are of Saami origins (north of Finland); My wife is 100% Finn, but her paternal grandmother's name was: Catarina Bridgett Heikkinen! One of my closest MtDNA matches is also a Heikkinen. It's a small world out there!

IrishMorgan
05-16-2015, 09:20 PM
I am neither an expert or a Irish Historian but, since naming really only began for the masses c. 1200 - 1400 AD, I see little help with naming as a means of estimating geographical information.

I agree that names can be misleading, and it's especially easy to get tripped up by tracing only your own name. Since I am the only Morgan so far in A17, that's part of the reason why I don't want to dwell on that name as part of this thread.

But looked at in the aggregate, with a cluster of 250+ people, shouldn't patterns in the names be useful? I'm basing this assumption partly on the findings of the UK DNA study mentioned here (http://www.nature.com/news/uk-mapped-out-by-genetic-ancestry-1.17136), which found that for people with four grandparents in the same geographic area there was relatively little migration over 600+ years.

And if surnames aren't the best thing to go by, what should we use? Do the most distant relative places that are listed for some kits provide more clues?

mcg11
05-17-2015, 01:17 AM
I really feel that all we have to go on is our set of STR values, plus any SNP information you might have. Many lines are very lean, with hardly any close (GD) matches. Obviously, as more people test, then more chances occur. I have a 10 at 632. You can count on your two hands how many persons have this mutation in the P312 Clade.

I also feel, it depends on how far back you are looking? A few hundred years is a different problem and can be significantly helped by naming. But once you start talking 2000 years, its a new ballgame. My earliest ancestor came to the colonies in 1684. To try and trace him, I have to find someone with a somewhat similar STR pattern. On this side of the Pond it is relatively easy to find close matches since we all go back to this one person who had children who were fairly prolific. To cross the Pond to Scotland is much more difficult and frustrating. JMHO.

The answer always seems to boil down to: We need more entries!!

AtWhatCost
06-24-2015, 08:15 PM
I think there is value in chasing down leads for all the various surnames that comprise a group, some of them are geographic in nature so that can certainly help because a family could have lived in a given area for over a thousand years or more and the current version of their surname could be a reflection of that. I'm sure you all already know this. Don't get disheartened in your research and I'd like to hear here if you find any new leads. Since this is probably one of the oldest haplotypes in the Isles, it naturally makes sense they would be more dispersed today. Especially if they had been in the Isles prior to 500 BC.

AtWhatCost
06-25-2015, 05:40 PM
MCG11 - Did you already see there are 3 other McGregors in Mike's L21 spread sheet under Z253? Granted the fact they are Z253 and you L1066 means it's at least a 3000 year difference BUT, the fact that multiple Z253's with that surname are found in the same general area could be indicative of a native group being in that area well before the arrival of the first McGregors. This may be in line with your thoughts all along perhaps? In this case, looking at surnames even if from different haplotypes separated by a very long time might have some meaning.

Most other Scottish McGregors appear to be L1335, which is probably Dalriadan since McAlpin was not a Pict...perhaps these other McGregors are from and indigenous group there when McAlpin arrived.

IrishMorgan
07-06-2015, 03:31 AM
I had a bit of a breakthrough on this the last couple weeks. Ray (our fearless leader of analysis of this haplogroup/cluster) was looking at the matches for a man in the cluster named Conley, and he mentioned that Conley's 35 matches at 67 markers indicated that he must be near the mode of a cluster. That made me start thinking that there must be sub-clusters in this very large haplogroup, and I started looking at cluster analysis methods. I found a program called MEGA (http://megasoftware.net/) that's typically used by biologists and people with PhDs to create phylogenic trees, and decided to figure out how it works. It took a bit of work to get the data in the right format, but attached are the results. It uses a combination of neighbor joining and minimum evolution algorithms to construct a tree with clusters from the genetic distance data that I posted previously.

The main doc to look at is the first one, which shows the tree and clusters. The length each branch on the tree represents genetic distance, and therefore relative time to a common ancestor. I've annotated this doc with my best guess at the place of origin of the clusters. In some cases the individuals know a county of origin of their family in Ireland, but in most cases I used tools like this one to find where the surnames are most common (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm). The second doc is the same tree, but it has estimated TMRCA in years. This is basically just an interpolation of the rough estimated origin of our haplogroup 2100 years ago. It's a bit harder to read, but the dates help show how relevant events may have shaped the migration patterns.

To me, it looks like our haplogroup originated somewhere in the central border region of Ireland. Perhaps Monaghan or Cavan. Some of the members left Ireland in Roman times or shortly thereafter. This group is shown at the bottom of the tree, and I call them "Early Explorers." In the early Christian era some moved north into Ulster, but most gradually moved south and west. The Norman Invasion undoubtedly contributed to a dispersal. At some point one lucky fellow worked his way into the Butler clan, and spread our DNA throughout Tipperary and northern Munster. Later events like Cromwell's invasion and plantation periods in Ulster, Offaly and Laois also contributed to the dispersion. I'm not sure how/why the Melicans moved to Clare so quickly, but the other movements seem to be gradual and explainable.

Please let me know if anyone has any questions or suggestions on improvements to the clusters and possible locations.

IrishMorgan
07-06-2015, 03:32 AM
With attachments this time.51375136

IrishMorgan
07-06-2015, 03:38 AM
Looks like the PDF attachments worked this time, but in the wrong order. min-ev-tree-straight.pdf is the main one to look at.

AtWhatCost
07-08-2015, 04:35 PM
I think there might need to be a focus on Central/Northern Britain as the hotspot or possible origin for Z253 or one of it's children. The old English/Anglo surnames having a long history in the territory of the Brigantes and other tribes bordering them in all directions is quite interesting. It could be any one of those tribal groups but looking at all the surnames listing English origins are generally confined to a somewhat tight area, most falling within the Brigante territory. Could be?

IrishMorgan
07-18-2015, 01:17 PM
I learn something almost every time I visit Anthrogenica. My early history of the isles is weak and I had not heard of the Brigantes, but it does look like a likely possible origin for our group. One thing that makes me wonder about it though is that there was also a Brigante tribe in south eastern Ireland at the time, according to this page: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribesireland.shtml.

Looking at that map, the Brigantes shown there are unlikely to be the origin of A17, since very few of our names are from the southeast coast. We more likely came over through the area shown as Volunti (aka Uluti). However, maybe a group of Brigantes from England came over through Uluti territory as a second wave, and allied themselves with Uluti (or maybe Eblani)?

AtWhatCost
07-19-2015, 12:17 AM
I learn something almost every time I visit Anthrogenica. My early history of the isles is weak and I had not heard of the Brigantes, but it does look like a likely possible origin for our group. One thing that makes me wonder about it though is that there was also a Brigante tribe in south eastern Ireland at the time, according to this page: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/celtictribesireland.shtml.

Looking at that map, the Brigantes shown there are unlikely to be the origin of A17, since very few of our names are from the southeast coast. We more likely came over through the area shown as Volunti (aka Uluti). However, maybe a group of Brigantes from England came over through Uluti territory as a second wave, and allied themselves with Uluti (or maybe Eblani)?

Yes, the location of where the Brigantes in Ireland were located is not really a great "fit". Probably be a long way off before anyone can start pinning the tail on the numerous Briton tribal groups.

IrishTypeIII
07-19-2015, 05:51 AM
Are all the men you are considering of the same terminal SNP?

I found using the R-L226 men that a phylogram was blown out of the water when terminal SNPs were added. People that were from quite separate branches were being shown on the phylogram as being closely related.

Muircheartaigh
07-19-2015, 02:40 PM
Are all the men you are considering of the same terminal SNP?

I found using the R-L226 men that a phylogram was blown out of the water when terminal SNPs were added. People that were from quite separate branches were being shown on the phylogram as being closely related.

These Charts have done a good job of clustering some of the known family branches but there are a number of inconsistencies in the charts as evidenced by the SNPs discovered by NGS and Panel testing. I've uploaded an updated version of the Z253-1716-11 cluster SNP Tree to the R-L21 Yahoo Group Files section. The Tree includes more than 30 Big Y and Panel test SNP results and I've also included results from anonymous PGP and Chromo. 2 candidates and there's one Irish result from the Chiara Batini Scientific Paper included who is positive for S856 and shares one SNP with Canady.

Art, I think it would help if you add the Terminal SNP labels to the relevant names and include the FTDNA Kit numbers. Privacy shouldn't be an issue where individuals have agreed to sharing data.

Ray Murta

IrishMorgan
07-22-2015, 04:13 AM
As a first step, I've created a legend here that shows the kit #s for each label: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_nQVJqYrcx1NrXKbJbR_qLtxPXpsHGc8KJJo2JBSgi0

All of the 228 in this data set are assumed to be A17, but for most we only have STR data. We have Big Y and other deep SNP data for about 10% of these men, so we can add that and adjust accordingly.

It would not surprise me if there are a few anomalies for some of those where we have Big Y. Back mutations and fast-changing markers could distort things a bit. I also am not sure how the algorithms treat "ties." For example, if three men are each separated by a GD of 4 at 67 markers, which two are joined? There are a couple possible ways we could correct for this:
a) I could probably weight GDs for faster-changing markers lower, and re-run the trees. I may already have the data for that from the original McGee Y-Utility run, but I'll need to check this weekend.
b) I believe the software will allow me to manually switch branches where needed and force it to redraw the tree.

Ray, I will share edit rights to the legend spreadsheet with you so you can show me terminal SNPs where known and any inconsistencies that should be corrected.

IrishMorgan
07-22-2015, 04:31 AM
People have already given me some additional surname and geography updates that I'll note here for tracking:
+ It was pointed out that there are a couple of Farrell/Ferrell near the Yorkes in the branch that I've annotated as "Longford, Roscommon." That's consistent with the Longford origins of the Farrell clan, as noted here: http://farrellclanireland.com/#/history
+ A relative of the person labeled "Manning 2" alerted me to the fact that original name was actually Mangan or Mangin in Irish records, and that they trace to Kilkenny. This is more consistent with the Butler branch listed below, so I am going to update that annotation to Kilkenny. I believe I put "Wicklow?" based on frequency distribution of "Manning", but we should use the original names where known.

AtWhatCost
07-22-2015, 01:20 PM
People have already given me some additional surname and geography updates that I'll note here for tracking:
+ It was pointed out that there are a couple of Farrell/Ferrell near the Yorkes in the branch that I've annotated as "Longford, Roscommon." That's consistent with the Longford origins of the Farrell clan, as noted here: http://farrellclanireland.com/#/history
+ A relative of the person labeled "Manning 2" alerted me to the fact that original name was actually Mangan or Mangin in Irish records, and that they trace to Kilkenny. This is more consistent with the Butler branch listed below, so I am going to update that annotation to Kilkenny. I believe I put "Wicklow?" based on frequency distribution of "Manning", but we should use the original names where known.
Interesting that Mangan is apparently "connected" to Niall....as so many surnames are it seems. Really hard to break out connections with so many flaws in pedigrees. I've seen enough non-M222 surname matches to the Niall pedigree to make one even doubt Niall was attached to M222 and that it's actually a different snp altogether. I suppose this is the biggest part of the challenge with looking for parallels in the surnames.

IrishMorgan
08-15-2015, 02:53 PM
Several people who are listed on the phylogram have asked me for ideas on how to research their branch and migration possibilities. I am an amateur at this, but below are a few of the techniques I have been using.

First let me explain my motives a little more. To me, one of the cool things about Y DNA is that it can trace virtually your entire human journey of one line of ancestors, from Africa to Asia to Europe, up to close to the genealogical time frame. I know about 250 years of my most recent journey through my father's genealogy efforts, but I'd like to be able to connect the dots. In other words, it would be great if we could trace that entire journey from Africa to the present. It would be like having a time machine that allows us to teleport back to a time and place where one of our paternal ancestors lived. I could stand in front of a castle or battleground or other historical place and say "my ancestor might have been doing X here at the time."

Another thing that's interesting about Y-DNA is that it can tell you about where your surname came from, and how it has evolved over time. Irish surnames are particularly interesting because they've been around so long (almost 1000 years, in many cases). Even if you've had a non-paternal event (NPE) somewhere along the way that dramatically changed your surname, your Y-DNA matches can help you infer when and where that NPE might have occurred, and what your surname might have been before the NPE. So, if you're like me, and this interest in time travel and evolution of your surname is consistent with your goals, here are the techniques that I think can help.

1. Work backward from your most recent known ancestor in Ireland, or that of your closest matches. In my case I don't know exactly where my Irish ancestor lived before emigrating, but my closest match, a man named Cullen, came from a town in Westmeath east of Athlone. That has been my starting point, and I've looked in various records for places where Cullens and Morgans overerlapped. The best tool I've found for this is this tool on the Irish Times website (http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm).

Enter your surname and review the map that's generated to see where the surname was most frequent in the mid 1800s. Also look in the upper right to see common variant spellings and their frequency. If the spelling you used isn't the most frequent, you may want to click on the more common spellings to see their frequency distribution.

You can also use the Second Surname input field on the lower right of the map to see what parishes your surname overlaps with another of you closest matches. Unfortunately you have to pay to see the results of this two name search, but I went to a library where they had the CDs of the database, and used the two name search for Morgan and four of my closest matches. There were a lot of overlapping parishes, but the biggest overlap in my case is Killoe parish in County Longford. In Killoe in the 1850s there were many Morgan households, and also several Cullens, Connellys, and Floods, along with other surnames among my closest matches.

So now I'm trying to learn more about the history of Killoe and neighboring areas. I have also been looking at earlier name data like Pender's 1659 "census". The 1659 census doesn't list all household surnames, but it's pretty close. If there were three or more household with a given surname in a given parish, that surname will usually be listed under "principal Irish names" along with the number of households. Here is a flipbook-style online version of Pender’s census where you can add your own bookmarks: http://www.irishmanuscripts.ie/digital/censusofireland1659/index.html. Here is an HTML/text version that is a little easier to read and search: http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/clanmaclochlainn.com/1659cen.htm

From the 1659 census I've learned that surname spelling evolved significantly between the mid 1600s and mid 1800s. For example, in Westmeath and neighboring Queen's county there were many Morgans in the mid 1800s, but in the mid 1600s that spelling was almost nonexistent. However there were Muricans, Morans, Mangans, and Magans, any of which might have morphed into Morgan in subsequent generations.

2. Work forward in time if your name, or one of your closest matches, is that of a well-known clan in Ireland. For example, Farrell is one of the names in our cluster, well-documented to have originated in what is now County Longford. If you are now a Yorke but one of your closest matches is a Farrell, you could trace the migration of Farrells and see where they overlapped geographically with Yorke or York families. Similarly with Butler, another common name in our cluster. We can see from historical records where Butlers lived from the late 1100s onward, moving from Kilkenny and Tipperary outward. If we find a parish where there were some Mangans working for a Butler lord, that may be the starting point for our A17 Butler cluster.

3. Get people in Ireland with your surname, or that of your closest matches, to do a DNA test. At first I was nervous about asking strangers to do a DNA test, but when I explain my whole story they people are surprisingly receptive. So far I have not found an A17 Morgan aside from myself, but I have found a couple close matches in northern Galway to one of my fellow Irish Morgan researchers who is M222. All this just from looking up addresses in the phone book and sending an explanatory letter by snail mail.

I hope this helps others who are interested in tracing their paternal lines more than a few hundred years. I know it's not for everyone, and it gets frustrating at time, but it's an interesting challenge. Let me know what you find!

IrishMorgan
08-17-2015, 02:04 AM
Another update regarding the Butlers in the tree: I was researching locations in northern Midlands and came across a town called Butlersbridge (or sometimes Butler's Bridge) in Cavan. It turns out this town and another called Belturbet to the north were founded by a man named Stephen Butler, from England. They seem to be different from the Norman Butlers from Kilkenny/Tipperary, though I'm not sure yet how they got the name Butler. They eventually became Lords and then Earls of Lanesborough in Cavan. Here is some info about them:http://lordbelmontinnorthernireland.blogspot.com/2013/07/lanesborough-lodge.html

At any rate, this branch of Butlers could account for some of the Butlers in our tree. I still think the big cluster of Butlers probably comes from Tipperary/Kilkenny, but perhaps the one in between Nixon and Peters is from this Cavan Butlers, as those names are more common in Ulster?

Also, I was thinking that the Canadys in our tree represent Tipperary, and that still may be the case, but I noticed in Pender's 1659 Census that there were Kenedys in Longford. Richard Kenedy gent. was gentry in Granard, and and there were 5 Irish Kenedys in Longford Barony.

On the one hand this shows how hard it is to draw conclusions from surnames alone, but on the other hand it shows that if we continue to research and share data points we may eventually find explanations for the patterns in the data.

Nic Fiachra
05-25-2017, 06:29 PM
We now know that a Z253 >L1066 (ISOGG 2017: R1b1a1a2a1a2b1e) individual was buried, estimated 1500 - 1300 BCE, near the southern shore of the Firth of Forth, in the location that is presently known as the village of Longniddry, East Lothian Council, Scotland.

The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf

Location on Map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longniddry#/media/File:East_Lothian_UK_location_map.svg

IrishMorgan
05-26-2017, 03:36 AM
We now know that a Z253 >L1066 (ISOGG 2017: R1b1a1a2a1a2b1e) individual was buried, estimated 1500 - 1300 BCE, near the southern shore of the Firth of Forth, in the location that is presently known as the village of Longniddry, East Lothian Council, Scotland.

The Beaker Phenomenon And The Genomic Transformation Of Northwest Europe
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2017/05/09/135962.full.pdf

Location on Map:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longniddry#/media/File:East_Lothian_UK_location_map.svg

Interesting. How do we know that? I scanned/searched the Beaker article, but didn't see mention of L1066.

MacUalraig
05-26-2017, 07:03 AM
Interesting. How do we know that? I scanned/searched the Beaker article, but didn't see mention of L1066.

You should read the supplementary material.
sample I2653
tables 1 and 3.

I2653 GENSCOT22 Petrous M H2a1a R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3a1 574585 1240k capture This study Bones/Teeth No half Britain_Bronze_Age Scotland_MBA Yes 1500–1300 BCE Scotland, Longniddry, Evergreen

R1b1a1a2a1a2c1e2b3a1:CTS1202.1:7265766A->C;
etc

IrishMorgan
05-27-2017, 08:48 PM
Thanks -- that's a good data point for us. Looking at The Big Tree, I can see that L1066 is parallel to the S844/A17 subclade that I am part of, and have been puzzling over for the last couple years. Since it is a parallel branch it's not a perfect data point, but still it supports our working theory that S844 originated in Scotland and then moved into Ireland at some point. The big question now is when?

Last year we got a new member of our subclade named Bisset, who is now the first branch off our tree. His paternal line comes from Scotland. By the time we get a couple levels down to S845 it's pretty clear that S845 was well established in central Ireland. In between S844 and S845 is a little more nebulous.

Here is what we look like on the Big Tree: http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1952&star=false