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View Full Version : Most Euro father lines descend from 3 men who lived >6,000YBP!



Krefter
05-10-2015, 05:12 AM
I was just randomly googling statistics on Y DNA in (specifically West and Northeast)Europe, and what we've learned in the last few years finally dawned on me. R1b-L11, R1a-Z283, and I1a-DF29 represent over 50% of the Y DNA of West and NorthEast Europe, and all expanded in the last 6,000 years. Think about that!! Of all the millions of men who lived in Europe 6,000-5,000YBP, only 3 represent most paternal lines in West and NorthEast Europe!!

It looks like R1b-L11 has mega-sons and grandsons who mark the migration of the lineage in each region. L11's sons' R1b-P312 dominates west Europe and R1b-U106 is popular in Central Europe and Scandinavia. Then P312's sons': L21 dominates the British isles(before Anglo Saxons), DF27 dominates SW France and Iberia, and U152 is popular in Central Europe and Italy. Everywhere L11 went it seems it had brand new founder effects.

There has to be a reason(s) for this trend. There was some-type of forced reason(s) that certain men's paternal lineages became so popular. These type of founder effects don't just happen.

Looking at Euro Y DNA it is also obvious that it is mostly a mix of Middle Neolithic Central-West Europe(I1, I2, G2a) and East Europe(R1b-L11, R1a-M417), consistent with autosomal DNA. Most of the rest are other West Asian lineages: E1b, J, T, some of which are Neolithic descended(the story could be differnt in differnt regions).

Agamemnon
05-16-2015, 08:10 PM
I seriously doubt J-M304 has much to do with the Neolithic though.

Krefter
05-16-2015, 08:18 PM
I seriously doubt J-M304 has much to do with the Neolithic though.

I agree. Maybe if people looked at the clades that exist in Europe a few years ago they would have found it probably isn't Neolithic.

mcg11
05-16-2015, 08:36 PM
I was just randomly googling statistics on Y DNA in (specifically West and Northeast)Europe, and what we've learned in the last few years finally dawned on me. R1b-L11, R1a-Z283, and I1a-DF29 represent over 50% of the Y DNA of West and NorthEast Europe, and all expanded in the last 6,000 years. Think about that!! Of all the millions of men who lived in Europe 6,000-5,000YBP, only 3 represent most paternal lines in West and NorthEast Europe!!

It looks like R1b-L11 has mega-sons and grandsons who mark the migration of the lineage in each region. L11's sons' R1b-P312 dominates west Europe and R1b-U106 is popular in Central Europe and Scandinavia. Then P312's sons': L21 dominates the British isles(before Anglo Saxons), DF27 dominates SW France and Iberia, and U152 is popular in Central Europe and Italy. Everywhere L11 went it seems it had brand new founder effects.

There has to be a reason(s) for this trend. There was some-type of forced reason(s) that certain men's paternal lineages became so popular. These type of founder effects don't just happen.

Looking at Euro Y DNA it is also obvious that it is mostly a mix of Middle Neolithic Central-West Europe(I1, I2, G2a) and East Europe(R1b-L11, R1a-M417), consistent with autosomal DNA. Most of the rest are other West Asian lineages: E1b, J, T, some of which are Neolithic descended(the story could be differnt in differnt regions).

I hate to beat a dead horse, but I believe there was a major bottleneck in W. Europe, probably caused by the great flood and Storeggae Tsunami.

I think that major coastal damage and loss of life occurred c. 7500 BP. It seems it then might have taken some 1500 years for populations to recover. Inland regions such as Scotland, Ireland, Germany, France, Spain and Northern Italy were probably the sources for the recovery.

Climatically, until about 5K BC, southern Europe was not as hospitable as northern Europe. It wasn't until 4K BC that major invasions of Easterners began migrating West as the climate in the South improved.

rms2
06-03-2015, 10:50 AM
I was just randomly googling statistics on Y DNA in (specifically West and Northeast)Europe, and what we've learned in the last few years finally dawned on me. R1b-L11, R1a-Z283, and I1a-DF29 represent over 50% of the Y DNA of West and NorthEast Europe, and all expanded in the last 6,000 years. Think about that!! Of all the millions of men who lived in Europe 6,000-5,000YBP, only 3 represent most paternal lines in West and NorthEast Europe!!
. . .

Yes, and just think: two of those three were descended from the same R1-M173 ancestor.

Piquerobi
06-03-2015, 11:49 AM
Everywhere L11 went it seems it had brand new founder effects.

There has to be a reason(s) for this trend. There was some-type of forced reason(s) that certain men's paternal lineages became so popular. These type of founder effects don't just happen.

That's where Gimbutas was right even when compared to contemporary David Anthony. She did stress it was a military/conquest process. It was not just a "fashion" which people simply adopted, though this could have happened at least to some extent. Physical violence seems to have been the major factor though. In India it seems the same happened (and there we have the Rigveda showing violence taking place).

ADW_1981
07-03-2015, 04:03 PM
Not sure why I'm reviving it, but it appears rather recent Celtic and Germanic expansions are responsible for this. The fact I1 is included as one of these founding fathers is, imho a major indicator that this must be the case.

emmental
07-03-2015, 04:58 PM
I was just randomly googling statistics on Y DNA in (specifically West and Northeast)Europe, and what we've learned in the last few years finally dawned on me. R1b-L11, R1a-Z283, and I1a-DF29 represent over 50% of the Y DNA of West and NorthEast Europe, and all expanded in the last 6,000 years. Think about that!! Of all the millions of men who lived in Europe 6,000-5,000YBP, only 3 represent most paternal lines in West and NorthEast Europe!!

It looks like R1b-L11 has mega-sons and grandsons who mark the migration of the lineage in each region. L11's sons' R1b-P312 dominates west Europe and R1b-U106 is popular in Central Europe and Scandinavia. Then P312's sons': L21 dominates the British isles(before Anglo Saxons), DF27 dominates SW France and Iberia, and U152 is popular in Central Europe and Italy. Everywhere L11 went it seems it had brand new founder effects.

There has to be a reason(s) for this trend. There was some-type of forced reason(s) that certain men's paternal lineages became so popular. These type of founder effects don't just happen.



I have been thinking about this for a while myself. One thought I had was that the feudal system during the middle ages was one of the causes for the dominance, in numbers, of just a few paternal lines reflected in today's Europe. It seems that the early IEs may have accumulated a lot of wealth and power through trade. Isotope studies suggest that they were very mobile. If this wealth and power was still in place at the beginning of the middle ages, the nobles had a much greater chance of emerging from feudalism in greater numbers. The great number of lower nobility, ministerialis class, and the lack of serfs (which is just another word for slaves), played a major role in ending feudalism. (IMHO)

J Man
07-03-2015, 05:07 PM
I seriously doubt J-M304 has much to do with the Neolithic though.

We now know that some J was present in Neolithic Europe even though it seems to have been a minor lineage among the EEF population and may have still arrived later than G2a

emmental
07-03-2015, 10:49 PM
Could we please get back to the subject of this thread? I found it to be interesting. Not that J migration isn't interesting, it's just not the subject of this thread. Maybe the original post will reset the discussion.


I was just randomly googling statistics on Y DNA in (specifically West and Northeast)Europe, and what we've learned in the last few years finally dawned on me. R1b-L11, R1a-Z283, and I1a-DF29 represent over 50% of the Y DNA of West and NorthEast Europe, and all expanded in the last 6,000 years. Think about that!! Of all the millions of men who lived in Europe 6,000-5,000YBP, only 3 represent most paternal lines in West and NorthEast Europe!!

It looks like R1b-L11 has mega-sons and grandsons who mark the migration of the lineage in each region. L11's sons' R1b-P312 dominates west Europe and R1b-U106 is popular in Central Europe and Scandinavia. Then P312's sons': L21 dominates the British isles(before Anglo Saxons), DF27 dominates SW France and Iberia, and U152 is popular in Central Europe and Italy. Everywhere L11 went it seems it had brand new founder effects.

There has to be a reason(s) for this trend. There was some-type of forced reason(s) that certain men's paternal lineages became so popular. These type of founder effects don't just happen.

Looking at Euro Y DNA it is also obvious that it is mostly a mix of Middle Neolithic Central-West Europe(I1, I2, G2a) and East Europe(R1b-L11, R1a-M417), consistent with autosomal DNA. Most of the rest are other West Asian lineages: E1b, J, T, some of which are Neolithic descended(the story could be differnt in differnt regions).

Humanist
07-03-2015, 11:02 PM
Posts regarding Y-DNA J1/J2 moved here: Origin(s) of Y-DNA J (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4834-Origin(s)-of-Y-DNA-J)