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speedyran
05-11-2015, 07:15 PM
HAryana jatts elevated northen european is very strange ...... i remember i asked my friend from haryana about jatts there and he said in haryana its very known sayin that during british rule...... british have so much physical relation with womens there and now by just seeing there results its very true...... even that sikh jatt sandhu + british white guy results are 30% north european ..... and haryana jatts and some other have like 20% north european so that explains maybe they have some british blood in them which comes during british rule and itd been only 60-70 years since india got independent so they still have good amount of northen european left. Its just my theory so nothing serious.

You posted one of the dumbest theories I ever read anywhere.

paulgill
05-11-2015, 08:59 PM
I wasn't takin about but what i meant is sexual intercorse...... that is what exactly what my friend told ..... that bastard offspring can be from any low caste and then she marry someone from jatt and thats how jatts absorbed high northen euro........ i heard from one jatt lady that jatts don't have much ptoblem when marrying some girl from other community but they are against giving there daughter to other community.

LOL, Kenji my friend, you needed to check who that your friends actually were, they definitely were not a Jatts and had to be on Meth Cocaine to imagine such stupidity. I didn't expect you to be so dumb to believe such nonsense, but obviously you did, may be all of you were doing it, who knows. So British men went from village to village for Jatt women, which won't be allowed in that culture at all anyways(revolt would have resulted from such none sense, another 1857, I mean), and Brahmin and other women be they from the city or village were left alone, interesting. 100 years in the west against 400 years in the east, so by your logic Bengalies should show 100% British, no?

kenji.aryan
05-12-2015, 04:56 AM
LOL, Kenji my friend, you needed to check who that your friends actually were, they definitely were not a Jatts and had to be on Meth Cocaine to imagine such stupidity. I didn't expect you to be so dumb to believe such nonsense, but obviously you did, may be all of you were doing it, who knows. So British men went from village to village for Jatt women, which won't be allowed in that culture at all anyways(revolt would have resulted from such none sense, another 1857, I mean), and Brahmin and other women be they from the city or village were left alone, interesting. 100 years in the west against 400 years in the east, so by your logic Bengalies should show 100% British, no?


I was new to genetics and didn have clear understanding of the subject when i posted that but my friend (Yadav/Ahir) from Haryana did say that its very popular in Haryana among villagers to say that some Haryanvi jatts are bastards of British soldiers and officers and i didn ask him are they or somethin like that, I just asked him are jatts in Haryana looks different from other Haryanvis and i asked it long time ago when i was more into phenotype.

Second, My friend is not just some illiterate or somethin like that, He is a Comminsioned officer in Indian Army and yet he told me that and how much truth is there in what he said i don't know but i shared what i heard.

There is a similar story that i heard in Karnataka while i was there from my friends (Native from Karnataka) about coorg (in karnataka) people, some said coorg used to have red light areas for British officers or soldiers and thats why sometimes you see some light skinned or haired people in coorg and again i don' know how much truth is there in it.


on a side note, Some Northern Indians states do have obsession with being English or european and you can see it in their first name and surnames that they adopted over the last 200-300 years .



Even in the early decades of the twentieth century, trafficking in women was rife in the region of Punjab now called Haryana. In 1921 a regular sale depot was discovered in the Hissar district, and a large number of women were found in wrongful confinement. They belonged to various castes and hailed from different parts of the country. In Hoshiarpur, Ludhiana and Ambala there is also a regular trade in women, who are hawked from place to place by professional cheats. In some districts of the United Provinces there was a definite traffic in girls with the Punjab, while Allahabad and Banda contain local matrimonial agencies, whose methods were not always above suspicion.13 The turn of the twentieth century also saw a remarkable internationalisation of this vicious business. A certain number of prostitutes of East European and Russian origin found their way to the sea-ports of India in Bombay, Karachi, Madras, Rangoon etc. via their sojourns in cities like Constantinople, Cairo, Alexandria, Baghdad etc. The male procurers or pimps, who were responsible for bringing them hither, belonged largely to the Jewish faith who advised women in Cairo, Alexandria and elsewhere of vacancies in the Indian and Far Eastern brothels, arranging with the brothel-keepers for their reception, if they desired to start in a new country, and often advancing the money for their steamer tickets, if they were short of funds.14

paulgill
05-12-2015, 08:14 AM
I wasn't takin about but what i meant is sexual intercorse...... that is what exactly what my friend told ..... that bastard offspring can be from any low caste and then she marry someone from jatt and thats how jatts absorbed high northen euro........ i heard from one jatt lady that jatts don't have much ptoblem when marrying some girl from other community but they are against giving there daughter to other community.


I was new to genetics and didn have clear understanding of the subject when i posted that but my friend (Yadav/Ahir) from Haryana did say that its very popular in Haryana among villagers to say that some Haryanvi jatts are bastards of British soldiers and officers and i didn ask him are they or somethin like that, I just asked him are jatts in Haryana looks different from other Haryanvis and i asked it long time ago when i was more into phenotype.

Second, My friend is not just some illiterate or somethin like that, He is a Comminsioned officer in Indian Army and yet he told me that and how much truth is there in what he said i don't know but i shared what i heard.

There is a similar story that i heard in Karnataka while i was there from my friends (Native from Karnataka) about coorg (in karnataka) people, some said coorg used to have red light areas for British officers or soldiers and thats why sometimes you see some light skinned or haired people in coorg and again i don' know how much truth is there in it.


on a side note, Some Northern Indians states do have obsession with being English or european and you can see it in their first name and surnames that they adopted over the last 200-300 years .







Looks like that there is no end to the nonsense that is coming from you. Your Yadav/Ahir friends say so becouse Jatts treat them like a piece of shit, they can do nothing but talk nonsense. Jatts do practice female infanticide, for that reason they won't have enough women around to marry, so some finally end up getting such women, I have seen Brahmin women married to Jatts but never a Jatt woman married to any outsider, and none of those women from outside, though married to Jatts been the Jatt women, now ask yourself why? Jatts will kill the woman and the outsider if such a thing happens.

It is obvious that if a woman gets pregnant she have equal chances of having a male or female child, such male children will be R1b and females will carry their mothers' mtHap. Where are those R1b males among Jatts of Hariyana or elsewhere? Do you know what No Evidence Means? The Truth Be Known Soon, Genetics will prove who is related to whom how far back.

Dahiya Jatts are one of the major clans of Jatts in Hariyana, just google Dahae and you will know who they are. Those surname you find common among Europeans and Jatts are the ancient surnames not new, because among the Europeans source of those surnames are Goths, Jutes, Getae, Alans and other Scythian tribes. Don't believe me? Go check with Brahmins in Haridwar, and you will know that Jatts already had those surnames when British didn't even know if there was such a place as India on this earth. No need to trust Jatts, at least trust you own Brahmin friends at Haridwar.

Don't be surprised when you soon find out that they actually are members of your own family, their and your ancestors were one and the same people, R1a1a and J2b2 both going to prove you that, I wonder sometime, if the Epic Mahabharata actually is a story of Eurasia, not India, may be there were actually two one in Eurasia and the other one in India.

kenji.aryan
05-12-2015, 09:04 AM
Looks like that there is no end to the nonsense that is coming from you. Your Yadav/Ahir friends say so becouse Jatts treat them like a piece of shit, they can do nothing but talk nonsense. Jatts do practice female infanticide, for that reason they won't have enough women around to marry, so some finally end up getting such women, I have seen Brahmin women married to Jatts but never a Jatt woman married to any outsider, and none of those women from outside, though married to Jatts been the Jatt women, now ask yourself why? Jatts will kill the woman and the outsider if such a thing happens.

It is obvious that if a woman gets pregnant she have equal chances of having a male or female child, such male children will be R1b and females will carry their mothers' mtHap. Where are those R1b males among Jatts of Hariyana or elsewhere? Do you know what No Evidence Means? The Truth Be Known Soon, Genetics will prove who is related to whom how far back.

Dahiya Jatts are one of the major clans of Jatts in Hariyana, just google Dahae and you will know who they are. Those surname you find common among Europeans and Jatts are the ancient surnames not new, because among the Europeans source of those surnames are Goths, Jutes, Getae, Alans and other Scythian tribes. Don't believe me? Go check with Brahmins in Haridwar, and you will know that Jatts already had those surnames when British didn't even know if there was such a place as India on this earth. No need to trust Jatts, at least trust you own Brahmin friends at Haridwar.

Don't be surprised when you soon find out that they actually are members of your own family, their and your ancestors were one and the same people, R1a1a and J2b2 both going to prove you that, I wonder sometime, if the Epic Mahabharata actually is a story of Eurasia, not India, may be there were actually two one in Eurasia and the other one in India.

I think Monkeydluffy have relatives who married to jatts and i think males but i can be wrong.

I googled "Dahiya" surname and there is no mention of it as a european surname except maybe in legendary "Jat land " forum. I did check some jatt surnames which is found exclusively in Punjabi jatts like Bains, Gill etc and no wonder those surnmaes are common in people from UK so maybe some tribes does adopted them the same way you find Lucky, Happy, sandy etc as common first names or nick names in Punjab and the only surname i found interesting is "Mann".


And like i said i can't say about what my friend told be about Haryana jats were truth or he said it because of inter-caste rivalry.

I also told you i don't buy Scythian/goth/jutes origin theories but i do believe that all the indians irrespective of their caste and who also happened to share same Y haplogroup have common ancestor at some point depends on what branch of that haplogroup they fall in.



and what you think about this article :



Unlikely cousins: Ezhava and Jat Sikh

The basis of AIT has been tested by several genetic diversity studies. DNA samples taken from thousands of Indians have been compared with population groups from other parts of the world, particularly Europe and Central Asia.
The latest one is from Kerala, which is my home state on India’s south-western coast. According to the study, two entirely different castes – Ezhava, also known as Thiyya in northern Kerala, and Jat Sikh of Punjab – show remarkable genetic similarity.
In fact, Ezhavas showed more genotypic resemblance to the Jat Sikh population of Punjab, Turks and Germans than to East Asians, says the study by the Department of Biotechnology & Biochemical Engineering at the Sree Budha College of Engineering in Pattoor, Kerala. It was conducted by department head Dr Seema Nair, Aswathy Geetha and Chippy Jagannath under the aegis of Dr K. Sasikumar, the chairman of the institute. It has also been published in the Croatian Medical Journal.
Before we jump into the study, here’s a little note about genetics. For various reasons, DNA material undergoes slight alterations or mutations in the course of time. The mutations then become characteristic of the line of descendants. These mutations, or genetic markers, are organised into categories called haplotypes. Basically, your haplotype is your genetic fingerprint.
The Sree Budha study examined DNA from the Y chromosome, which is also known as the male chromosome because it is found only in males. More specifically, it examined Y Short Tandem Repeat (Y STR) DNA present in the Y chromosome. As these DNA sequences are passed from father to son, it is also useful in forensics and paternity testing.
The Ezhava population was compared with other Indian populations and with selected world populations in order to investigate the pattern of paternal contributions. Nair’s team examined 104 haplotypes among the Ezhavas. Ten were found identical to the Jat Sikhs, which is the highest number among Indian populations, and four to the Turkish population, which is the highest among European populations.
“The comparison suggests a genetic link between the populations,” says Nair. Ezhavas, she argues, are genetically more similar to Europeans (60 percent) than to East Asians (40 percent).
My interaction with Nair, who comes across as witty and erudite, was primarily fuelled by my search for my own roots. I belong to the same Ezhava community, which is at the centre of this research.
The Ezhavas have an intriguing history. The most persistent belief is that they are the original people of Kerala – the soldiers of the Villavar (archer) community which founded the Chera kingdom. It is a measure of their martial traditions that among the Ezhavas are the Chekavar – the only kamikaze group of fighters known in Indian history.
What is intriguing about the study is that the Ezhavas, a Dravidian group, are now being described as closer to Jat Sikhs, Europeans and Central Asians.
In terms of physical appearance, the Ezhavas are brown Caucasians. However, typical of many Indian communities, there are plenty of very dark and very fair people among them.

http://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/06/06/europeans_and_indians_divided_or_united_by_dna_159 23.html

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/ezhavas-has-got-a-paternal-lineage-of-european-origin-study/article2473292.ece

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118723/


http://s3.postimg.org/4tyx349tf/ss_001.jpg

http://s10.postimg.org/w0dspbyex/Croat_Med_J_52_0344_F1.jpg

Toor
05-12-2015, 09:31 AM
I was new to genetics and didn have clear understanding of the subject when i posted that but my friend (Yadav/Ahir) from Haryana did say that its very popular in Haryana among villagers to say that some Haryanvi jatts are bastards of British soldiers and officers and i didn ask him are they or somethin like that, I just asked him are jatts in Haryana looks different from other Haryanvis and i asked it long time ago when i was more into phenotype.

Second, My friend is not just some illiterate or somethin like that, He is a Comminsioned officer in Indian Army and yet he told me that and how much truth is there in what he said i don't know but i shared what i heard.

There is a similar story that i heard in Karnataka while i was there from my friends (Native from Karnataka) about coorg (in karnataka) people, some said coorg used to have red light areas for British officers or soldiers and thats why sometimes you see some light skinned or haired people in coorg and again i don' know how much truth is there in it.


on a side note, Some Northern Indians states do have obsession with being English or european and you can see it in their first name and surnames that they adopted over the last 200-300 years .






What North Indian states have an obsession with the British? I cant think of any in particular except maybe West Bengal.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 09:36 AM
I think Monkeydluffy have relatives who married to jatts and i think males but i can be wrong.

I googled "Dahiya" surname and there is no mention of it as a european surname except maybe in legendary "Jat land " forum. I did check some jatt surnames which is found in majority in Punjabi jatts like Bains, Gill etc and no wonder those surnmaes are common in people from UK so maybe some tribes does adopted them the same way you find Lucky, Happy, sandy etc etc as common first names in Punjab.

And like i said i can't say about what my friend told be about Haryana jats were truth or he said it because of inter-caste rivalry.

I also told you i don't buy Scythian/goth/jutes origin theories but i do believe that all the indians irrespective of their caste and who also happened to share same Y haplogroup have common ancestor at some point depends on what branch of that haplogroup they fall in.

Yes, females are taken but only if there is no Jatt woman available as bride, or it could be due to an affair. When you deny Scythian connection, you are also denying Greeks, Indo Scythians, Parthians, Kushans, white Huns etc. Did these people never ventured into India, or they somehow disappeared into the thin air, after the Brahmins chanted the Mantras? Nothing new though, Brahmins are experts in that, they have always been able to prove that the Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Even the story of the Ashoka the Great was not known until British dug it out, strange history of India, no records of history, but tons of other worldly stuff.

Due to too much mumbo jumbo, nothing much can be ascertained, I guess. But the long due blow of genetic revelation is just around the corner now, so let us just wait for that.

kenji.aryan
05-12-2015, 09:57 AM
Yes, females are taken but only if there is no Jatt woman available as bride, or it could be due to an affair. When you deny Scythian connection, you are also denying Greeks, Indo Scythians, Parthians, Kushans, white Huns etc. Did these people never ventured into India, or they somehow disappeared into the thin air, after the Brahmins chanted the Mantras? Nothing new though, Brahmins are experts in that, they have always been able to prove that the Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Even the story of the Ashoka the Great was not known until British dug it out, strange history of India, no records of history, but tons of other worldly stuff.

Due to too much mumbo jumbo, nothing much can be ascertained, I guess. But the long due blow of genetic revelation is just around the corner now, so let us just wait for that.

I didn't deny scythian. greeks, kushans etc connection with india or pakistan or some parts of Afghanistan but i don't buy that they choosed to mix entirely with jats which you are trying to prove second i'm not from ganges so what happened there is none of my business.

Pen and sword are both important imo .

paulgill
05-12-2015, 10:06 AM
I didn't deny scythian. greeks, kushans etc connection with india or pakistan or some parts of Afghanistan but i don't buy that they choosed to mix entirely with jats which you are trying to prove second i'm not from ganges so what happened there is none of my business.

Pen and sword are both important imo .

There were no Jatts before that, may be the Sakya clan Siddhartha Gautama [Saka, Gaut] etc. and there were no Goths and Jutes in Europe either all Eurasians.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 10:13 AM
To serve British was an obsession for Northern Indian states and still its present today just think from which states in India people are dying to go abroad even by selling their lands or by doing fraud marriages etc.

There been too many from south earlier on, some even 400+ ybp, and they are coming now again in hordes.

kenji.aryan
05-12-2015, 10:17 AM
There were no Jatts before that, may be the Sakya clan Siddhartha Gautama [Saka, Gaut] etc. and there were no Goths and Jutes in Europe either all Eurasians.


Found this :



The region called Sakadwipa


Mahabharata mentions about a whole region inhabited by Sakas called Sakadwipa to the north-west of ancient India, at (6:11):-There in that region are, many delightful provinces where Siva is worshipped, and thither repair the Siddhas, the Charanas, and the Devas. The people there are virtuous, and all the four orders are devoted to their respective occupation. No instance of theft can be seen there. Freed from decrepitude and death and gifted with long life, the people there grow like rivers during the season of rains. The rivers there are full of sacred water, and Ganga herself, distributed as she hath been into various currents, is there as Sukumari, and Kumari, and Seta, and Keveraka, and Mahanadi and the river Manijala, and Chakshus, and the river Vardhanika, these and many other rivers by thousands and hundreds, all full of sacred water, are there. It is impossible to recount the names and lengths of rivers. As heard by all men there, in that region of Saka, are four sacred provinces. They are the Mrigas, the Masakas, the Manasas, and the Mandagas.

The Mrigas for the most part are Brahmanas devoted to the occupations of their order. Amongst the Masakas are virtuous Kshatriyas. The Manasas live by following the duties of the Vaisya order. Having every wish of theirs gratified, they are also brave and firmly devoted to virtue and profit. The Mandagas are all brave Sudras of virtuous behaviour.

In these provinces there is no king, no punishment, no person that deserves to be punished. Conversant with the dictates of duty they are all engaged in the practice of their respective duties and protect one another. This much is capable of being said of the region called Saka.

The region called Sakadwipa is mentioned again at (12:14) as a region to the east of the great Meru mountains.

jesus
05-12-2015, 10:27 AM
There were no Jatts before that, may be the Sakya clan Siddhartha Gautama [Saka, Gaut] etc. and there were no Goths and Jutes in Europe either all Eurasians.

Wasn't Siddhartha Gautama a Kshatriya ? and Jatts are outside of the caste system ? if that is true, how did the Sakya clan lose it's Kshatriya status, if that's even possible.

kenji.aryan
05-12-2015, 10:38 AM
Wasn't Siddhartha Gautama a Kshatriya ?

From Wiki:

The Shakya clan belonged to the Gautama gotra of Brahmins.[8][9]

The Shakya clan, even though a Kshatriya clan, traces its lineage from Maharishi Gautam, one of the great seven rishis or Saptrishi.[8][10]

This is the reason why Buddha is known as Gautama Buddha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya

paulgill
05-12-2015, 11:07 AM
I think Monkeydluffy have relatives who married to jatts and i think males but i can be wrong.

I googled "Dahiya" surname and there is no mention of it as a european surname except maybe in legendary "Jat land " forum. I did check some jatt surnames which is found exclusively in Punjabi jatts like Bains, Gill etc and no wonder those surnmaes are common in people from UK so maybe some tribes does adopted them the same way you find Lucky, Happy, sandy etc as common first names or nick names in Punjab and the only surname i found interesting is "Mann".


And like i said i can't say about what my friend told be about Haryana jats were truth or he said it because of inter-caste rivalry.

I also told you i don't buy Scythian/goth/jutes origin theories but i do believe that all the indians irrespective of their caste and who also happened to share same Y haplogroup have common ancestor at some point depends on what branch of that haplogroup they fall in.



and what you think about this article :




http://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/06/06/europeans_and_indians_divided_or_united_by_dna_159 23.html

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/ezhavas-has-got-a-paternal-lineage-of-european-origin-study/article2473292.ece

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118723/


http://s3.postimg.org/4tyx349tf/ss_001.jpg

http://s10.postimg.org/w0dspbyex/Croat_Med_J_52_0344_F1.jpg

Lucky, happy etc. names you will find among all groups, they are nick names and don't become surnames.

Ezhava, I have heard about them before, I don't think that those studies are in depth or detailed studies, I hope someone cares to have some FGS on some of those, or at least the FTDNA SNPs Panel test to find out more about the subclades they belong to.

My guess is that if they are truly closely related to Punjabi Jatts, then we are most likely looking at the community of the Mauriyas, it is said that they were sent to Sri Lanka to spread Buddhism, they most likely were the soldiers of Ashoka's army, and we all know that Chandra Gupta Mauriya was from Punjab. Another possibility is that they are a part of the Sakya clan of Gautama the Buddha, who were related to Punjabi Jatts, this one actually explains why Punjabi Jatts have lower Eurasian component than the Hariyana Jatts because they are in India for longer time thus more mixed with the locals, there is yet another possibility, these a part of Punjabi Jatts ventures further southwest later and mixed with the south Indians.

Kenji Aryan, I think once we know much more about the subclades of different groups, we will have better idea about the relationship and movements of these groups. And then on top of that if we can find something in the written history, even folklore, things will become much more clear.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 11:35 AM
Wasn't Siddhartha Gautama a Kshatriya ? and Jatts are outside of the caste system ? if that is true, how did the Sakya clan lose it's Kshatriya status, if that's even possible.

Now ask yourself why was not he a Hindu or remained a Hindu? In the Deva Samhita, which is not written by Jatts but Brahmins, Jatts are declared Kshatriya and the Prime Rulers of the Earth, now go and ask Brahmins, why? Trouble is this, the Jatts is a group which would not closely observe the rules set by Brahmins at all, and this could not be acceptable to Brahmins as it threatened Brahmins social status and hold on the populations, so the conflict, the Brahmins been always trying to keep this most unruly bunch in control any which way they could, and had partial success.


It is not that Jatts lost their Kshatrya status or not, if you go on the border during the war, you will see who is a real Kshatriya or not.

Trouble Jatts have with Brahmins is that Brahmins will tell Jatts that they are lower than Brahmins, the status which is unacceptable to Jatts as Jatts consider themselves highest of all.

The thing that most people forget to understand is that if J is offered a status by B, and J agrees to that status, then J must abide by the rules of that agreement, and if J rejects that offer then there is no agreement between B and J at all. No rules or status can be forced upon J or B, it must be agreed to by both B and J for it to be an enforceable agreement.

kenji.aryan
05-12-2015, 11:53 AM
Now ask yourself why was not he a Hindu or remained a Hindu? In the Deva Samhita, which is not written by Jatts but Brahmins, Jatts are declared Kshatriya and the Prime Rulers of the Earth, now go and ask Brahmins, why? Trouble is this, the Jatts is a group which would not closely observe the rules set by Brahmins at all, and this could not be acceptable to Brahmins as it threatened Brahmins social status and hold on the populations, so the conflict, the Brahmins been always trying to keep this most unruly bunch in control any which way they could, and had partial success.


But if Brahmins are responsible for degradation of Jats social status in varna system then why Arabs scholars also desribed jats of low status during invasion of sindh and if we consider the possibilities that jats resisted Arabs and that caused Arabs to described jats as low status people but then why they didn't behave the same way with Brahmins as Raja Dhir(Brahmin) was the ruler of sindh at the time of sindh invasion by Arabs.


And why Arabs described Ahirs or yadavs as of different status and relate them with Krishna.



Something about Deva samihta


Deva Samhita or Devasamhita (IAST:Deva Samhitā) (Devanagari: देवसंहिता) is a collection of Sanskrit hymns by Gorakh Sinha during the early medieval period. It propounded the theory of Origin of Jats from Shiva's Locks.[1][full citation needed] Devasamhita records an account of the Origin of the Jats in the form of discussion between Shiva and Parvati expressed in shloka (verses).

Considerin all ancient Hindu text were written by Brahmins/sages, why would they mention jats in the very first place if there was some rivalry between them.
Anyways, i doubt Deva samhita even exist as i can't find any reliable source about its existence and who wrote it.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-12-2015, 12:24 PM
Yes, females are taken but only if there is no Jatt woman available as bride, or it could be due to an affair.

Actually my male cousins have married jatt girls, not the other way around paji. I've had two rishte from jatt families in past. :)

Please don't jump to conclusions.

this thread is going way off topic and turning into an argument. Let's not get it closed.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 01:18 PM
But if Brahmins are responsible for degradation of Jats social status in varna system then why Arabs scholars also desribed jats of low status during invasion of sindh and if we consider the possibilities that jats resisted Arabs and that caused Arabs to described jats as low status people but then why they didn't behave the same way with Brahmins as Raja Dhir(Brahmin) was the ruler of sindh at the time of sindh invasion by Arabs.


And why Arabs described Ahirs or yadavs as of different status and relate them with Krishna.



Something about Deva samihta



Considerin all ancient Hindu text were written by Brahmins/sages, why would they mention jats in the very first place if there was some rivalry between them.
Anyways, i doubt Deva samhita even exist as i can't find any reliable source about its existence and who wrote it.

Jatts don't care about Brahmins Varna status. But the Varna status been forced by Brahmins on one and all, people been fooled into believing that their this status is the result of their Past Karma. God did not come to tell people that they were untouchables or that Brahmins were the highest, it been just a system devised by a group to control the masses, by brain washing the illiterate and unsuspecting victims.

Who are these Arab Scholars? Can't you see what kind of scholarship they possess? Who told them that Ahirs and Yadavs belong to Lord Krishna's Lineage? Allah or Brahmins? And that Jatt are low status, if true, what were the Jatts doing in the Muslim Armies, would you hire such low status people in your army, what status does a soldier belongs to, do you have any idea? Do you really need me to tell you why they behaved differently with Brahmins, I hope not? Why Brahmins gave Muslims the status of untouchable and why the Greeks and British rulers were also afforded the same status of untouchables?

I think you would need to call Gorakh Sinha to answer that for you, it is not only known to us but to all Brahmins who read such Sanskrit literature, I did not learn about it on the internet first, but from a few Sanniyasis.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 01:21 PM
Actually my male cousins have married jatt girls, not the other way around paji. I've had two rishte from jatt families in past. :)


How you know they are Jatts, and their parents praised them for that?

MonkeyDLuffy
05-12-2015, 01:26 PM
How you know they are Jatts, and their parents praised them for that?

What? Seriously what?

paulgill
05-12-2015, 01:29 PM
What? Seriously what?I asked you if they got blessings from their Parents, relatives and community, or we are talking about some runaways, or fake Jatts, there are those around too.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-12-2015, 01:32 PM
I asked you if they got blessings from their Parents, relatives and community, or we are talking about some runaways, or fake Jatts, there are those around too.

So if a person marry outside of their community, that makes them fake? Yes both families were happy, it was a normal marriage. There are educated families out there who look at education and status of Groom rather than their ego.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 01:49 PM
So if a person marry outside of their community, that makes them fake? Yes both families were happy, it was a normal marriage. There are educated families out there who look at education and status of Groom rather than their ego.

It is not ego but tradition which is traded for education and status neither of which is ever stable, will see if their children are accepted into Jatt community.

But in the end one must admit that all man made institutions won't last forever, and all life is equal.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 02:41 PM
Sometime you say Jatts were Kshatriyas so part of Varna system and Brahmins i think doesn't invented it because initially it was created based on your occupation and maybe the people who invented it were same and they divided themselves based on occupation.

I think in every religion or culture Priests have higher status and so does people good with intelligence and the same trend can be seen today that people who are good in mental related tasks or in intelligence are working at higher position for Governments, defence and public sector etc and they are well respected then somebody cleaning toilets etc.

The past karma thing maybe came in existence because of corruption of varna system which turned into something you inherit by birth.

About Arab scholar or traveller, maybe you should read what they wrote by yourself but i hardly doubt they were biased in what they see. Jats not acting very different from Brahmin when it comes to untochable discrimination and i think i provided you with evidences earlier.

I don't think people discriminate when it comes to recruiting soldiers because they need people who are good in fighting or are fit or can fight rather than people of high status or class .









I would have had agreed if Ahirs and Yadavs had Kshatriya status, but they don't, what can one expect from such people who will drop even Lord Krishna's lineage to untouchables.

There is nothing like Advaita anywhere, so don't take me wrong, that is the best gift from Brahman Philosophy to this world and is absolutely worthy of the best praise possible, but then there is rest of it which goes right opposite to it which is no less than a Total Solar eclipse.

Not me but Brahmins in Deva Samhita say so. Ask The Sanniyasins they know this for ages. For me all life is one, any discrimination is nothing but an insult of The Only ONE That Is.

One that cleans the toilet is shunned, but the one that deals with the same waste but is called DOCTOR, is praised, now ask yourself why? If one looks closely both are dealing with the same thing, both are helping us to stay healthy and live longer though generally in a different way. Even when we hate the smell and sight of the human waste, we all carry tons of it within us, yet if you look at the reality of it, it is only the food that just been processed by the human processor.

Last part can be answered truly only by the ones who we fight the war with, no?

paulgill
05-12-2015, 02:54 PM
Found this : Very good find, Thanks. Mrigas, I think are the Magis of the Bible, Zoroastrian Priests.

Moderator
05-12-2015, 03:30 PM
[MOD] New thread created from off-topic on this thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3159-Post-your-MDLP-K23b-calculator-Oracle-ancestry-here/page58).

As a reminder to our members, please remember to PM staff or send us a report if a thread is going off-topic and we will gladly split into new threads should the content be deemed worthwhile to sustain. We will not automatically shut threads down simply for being off-topic. :)

Toor
05-12-2015, 04:03 PM
Wasn't Siddhartha Gautama a Kshatriya ? and Jatts are outside of the caste system ? if that is true, how did the Sakya clan lose it's Kshatriya status, if that's even possible.
There are Sakyas in the Nepal/India border who claim to be descended from the the same Sakya Kingdom of the Buddha. They're considered a Vaishya caste.

Toor
05-12-2015, 04:04 PM
From Wiki:

The Shakya clan belonged to the Gautama gotra of Brahmins.[8][9]

The Shakya clan, even though a Kshatriya clan, traces its lineage from Maharishi Gautam, one of the great seven rishis or Saptrishi.[8][10]

This is the reason why Buddha is known as Gautama Buddha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya
Wiki isn't reliable, I've met Shakyas and they are considered Vaishya..

Dr_McNinja
05-12-2015, 04:07 PM
There are Sakyas in the Nepal/India border who claim to be descended from the the same Sakya Kingdom of the Buddha. They're considered a Vaishya caste.
Any place we can find out about their surnames? Wiki doesn't have any like it does for other articles about Indian castes/groups:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya

Says they're of Brahmin lineage. A lot of Vaishya-type castes in Northern India are listed as of Brahmin lineage. Next generation Y-DNA testing would confirm it, but they have a lot of the same R1a, R2, J2, etc as Brahmins.

surbakhunWeesste
05-12-2015, 04:14 PM
Wiki isn't reliable, I've met Shakyas and they are considered Vaishya..

The Shakyas of Nepal aren't the Shakya clan Siddhartha Gautam belonged to, they are the descendants of his strict followers. The Shakyas are the "brahmins" of Newars. Last names like Shakyas, Bajracharya ...they are called "gurju" or priest in newari language. Shakyas are mostly found in heart of Kathmandu. Some newars also wear the "janai" sacred thread.
So Vaishya is true but they are the brahmins of the newars. Most present day Shakyas indulge themselves in gold business and are goldsmiths.

EDIT: Having said that,some Shakyas and Bajrachayras are also likely the descendants od "Lichhavis" or at least some claim the lineage, according to some old literature found in Nepal. Lichhavis had one "asti dhatu" of Buddha which is kept in "Syambhunath" and is displayed on his birthday "Buddha Jayanti" in Kathmandu, Nepal. Lichhavis were related to Buddha's clan the Shakyas.

Toor
05-12-2015, 04:16 PM
Any place we can find out about their surnames? Wiki doesn't have any like it does for other articles about Indian castes/groups:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya

Says they're of Brahmin lineage. A lot of Vaishya-type castes in Northern India are listed as of Brahmin lineage. Next generation Y-DNA testing would confirm it, but they have a lot of the same R1a, R2, J2, etc as Brahmins.
Unfortunately I don't know to much about them either, they seem to be a very small group but they are found around UP, Bihar and Nepal which makes sense geographically considering that's where the Shakya Kingdom ruled. Wiki seems to be quite confused as well claiming they are both Brahmins and Kshatriyas.

Toor
05-12-2015, 04:34 PM
My guess is that if they are truly closely related to Punjabi Jatts, then we are most likely looking at the community of the Mauriyas, it is said that they were sent to Sri Lanka to spread Buddhism, they most likely were the soldiers of Ashoka's army, and we all know that Chandra Gupta Mauriya was from Punjab. Another possibility is that they are a part of the Sakya clan of Gautama the Buddha, who were related to Punjabi Jatts, this one actually explains why Punjabi Jatts have lower Eurasian component than the Hariyana Jatts because they are in India for longer time thus more mixed with the locals, there is yet another possibility, these a part of Punjabi Jatts ventures further southwest later and mixed with the south Indians.


I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that Chandragupta Maurya was from Punjab, he belonged to the Maurya caste who were elevated to Kshatriya status. They are not found anywhere outside of Eastern India. Almost all sources point to his place of birth as being around the villages of Pataliputra. Chanakaya may have been from Punjab but there is only one source supporting this.

parasar
05-12-2015, 08:47 PM
...
Second, My friend is not just some illiterate or somethin like that, He is a Comminsioned officer in Indian Army and yet he told me that and how much truth is there in what he said i don't know but i shared what i heard.

...

The Y lines do not show even a trace of British influence. A connection is possible, but it is not historical.



Yes, females are taken but only if there is no Jatt woman available as bride, or it could be due to an affair. When you deny Scythian connection, you are also denying Greeks, Indo Scythians, Parthians, Kushans, white Huns etc. Did these people never ventured into India, or they somehow disappeared into the thin air, after the Brahmins chanted the Mantras? Nothing new though, Brahmins are experts in that, they have always been able to prove that the Pen is Mightier than the Sword. Even the story of the Ashoka the Great was not known until British dug it out, strange history of India, no records of history, but tons of other worldly stuff.
...

Ashoka was well known but he is not accorded any particular elevated status beyond say Mahapadmananda, Chandragupta or Bindusara among the kings of Magadha in non-Buddhistic material. He is mentioned as Asoka/Asokavardhana in the Sanskrit texts - Vishnu, Vayu, Matsya etc. and Asoko and Dhammasoko in numerous Pali texts.

The question is why are Greek, Persian, and Aramaic accounts totally silent about him when at least the Greeks and Aramaics should have known him as he has inscriptions in those two languages! They obviously knew him, but in their forms Arsaces, Ashak, and Arshak, respectively.

everest59
05-12-2015, 09:20 PM
The Shakyas of Nepal aren't the Shakya clan Siddhartha Gautam belonged to, they are the descendants of his strict followers. The Shakyas are the "brahmins" of Newars. Last names like Shakyas, Bajracharya ...they are called "gurju" or priest in newari language. Shakyas are mostly found in heart of Kathmandu. Some newars also wear the "janai" sacred thread.
So Vaishya is true but they are the brahmins of the newars. Most present day Shakyas indulge themselves in gold business and are goldsmiths.

EDIT: Having said that,some Shakyas and Bajrachayras are also likely the descendants od "Lichhavis" or at least some claim the lineage, according to some old literature found in Nepal. Lichhavis had one "asti dhatu" of Buddha which is kept in "Syambhunath" and is displayed on his birthday "Buddha Jayanti" in Kathmandu, Nepal. Lichhavis were related to Buddha's clan the Shakyas.

The Newari Shakya that I knew growing up was a Buddhist. So my impression has been that Newar Shakyas are all Buddhist. Newars can be either Hindu or Buddhist depending on the surname. I had Manandhar friends who wore Janai.

Dr_McNinja
05-12-2015, 09:26 PM
Davidski posted this cool 4-way mixture modeling script for R.

For HRP0393 Haryana Jatt, I got this after a couple tries:

22% Balochi + 28% Yamnaya + 50% GujaratiD @ D = 0.0067

I spent more time trying different combinations to get a close fit for myself, this was the closest thus far before I got bored:

9% Yamnaya + 46% Chamar + 38% Balochi + 7% Tajik_Pomiri @ D = 0.0099

19% Lezgin + 37% GujaratiD + 18% Tajik_Pomiri + 26% Chamar @ D = 0.0115

paulgill
05-12-2015, 10:39 PM
Found this :


The Shakyas of Nepal aren't the Shakya clan Siddhartha Gautam belonged to, they are the descendants of his strict followers. The Shakyas are the "brahmins" of Newars. Last names like Shakyas, Bajracharya ...they are called "gurju" or priest in newari language. Shakyas are mostly found in heart of Kathmandu. Some newars also wear the "janai" sacred thread.
So Vaishya is true but they are the brahmins of the newars. Most present day Shakyas indulge themselves in gold business and are goldsmiths.

EDIT: Having said that,some Shakyas and Bajrachayras are also likely the descendants od "Lichhavis" or at least some claim the lineage, according to some old literature found in Nepal. Lichhavis had one "asti dhatu" of Buddha which is kept in "Syambhunath" and is displayed on his birthday "Buddha Jayanti" in Kathmandu, Nepal. Lichhavis were related to Buddha's clan the Shakyas.

How can you be sure of all this?
Why Gautama the Buddha start a new religion?
How do you know that the Gautam Rishi actually was not a Scythian Gaut?
They even say that Chankya was a Brahmin, why did he then follow Jainism?
They say that Chandera Gupta Mauriya was a Sudra, where were all the Kshatriyas then?
Gautma the Buddha is also known as the Prince of Sakya clan who was son of a Gaut mother.
Ezhava's Y Hap subclades need to be compared with all who claim to be of Sakya Clan.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 11:09 PM
I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that Chandragupta Maurya was from Punjab, he belonged to the Maurya caste who were elevated to Kshatriya status. They are not found anywhere outside of Eastern India. Almost all sources point to his place of birth as being around the villages of Pataliputra. Chanakaya may have been from Punjab but there is only one source supporting this.

But what was he doing on the banks of the Beas River, there were no pilgrimage shrines to visit there? If he was not part of the earlier Saka clans, he most probably was from among the Saka clans who came as mercenaries with Alexander the Great.

One doesn't need someone else to promote him to Kshatriya status, a King doesn't need a priest to tell him that he is a King now. So many victims of this system, unbelievable, even now, including the outsiders fall for it as if it is ordained by GOD HIMSELF.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 11:18 PM
The Shakyas of Nepal aren't the Shakya clan Siddhartha Gautam belonged to, they are the descendants of his strict followers. The Shakyas are the "brahmins" of Newars. Last names like Shakyas, Bajracharya ...they are called "gurju" or priest in newari language. Shakyas are mostly found in heart of Kathmandu. Some newars also wear the "janai" sacred thread.
So Vaishya is true but they are the brahmins of the newars. Most present day Shakyas indulge themselves in gold business and are goldsmiths.

EDIT: Having said that,some Shakyas and Bajrachayras are also likely the descendants od "Lichhavis" or at least some claim the lineage, according to some old literature found in Nepal. Lichhavis had one "asti dhatu" of Buddha which is kept in "Syambhunath" and is displayed on his birthday "Buddha Jayanti" in Kathmandu, Nepal. Lichhavis were related to Buddha's clan the Shakyas.

Thanks. Lichhavis sound a bit close to Ezhavas. Need to compare them genetically, may be there is a real connection here.

Toor
05-12-2015, 11:35 PM
But what was he doing on the banks of the Beas River, there were no pilgrimage shrines to visit there? If he was not part of the earlier Saka clans, he most probably was from among the Saka clans who came as mercenaries with Alexander the Great.

One doesn't need someone else to promote him to Kshatriya status, a King doesn't need a priest to tell him that he is a King now. So many victims of this system, unbelievable, even now, including the outsiders fall for it as if it is ordained by GOD HIMSELF.
He was at the Beas River because he was a King who wished to expand his Empire. The Western fringes of his Kingdom was being threatened by Seleucus. He was almost certainly of native origin as all sources point to this, no sources to my knowledge call him a Saka mercenary. His Kingdom was a continuation of the Magadha Kingdoms of Pataliputra. All of which have native origins.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha_Empire

Why would a "Saka mercenary" travel all the way to Bihar and carry on the Magadha Kingdoms and use the native clan name "Maurya"? He was from Pataliputra, unless there is solid evidence to refute this then I see no other reason to discuss this.

paulgill
05-12-2015, 11:55 PM
EDIT: Having said that,some Shakyas and Bajrachayras are also likely the descendants od "Lichhavis" or at least some claim the lineage, according to some old literature found in Nepal. Lichhavis had one "asti dhatu" of Buddha which is kept in "Syambhunath" and is displayed on his birthday "Buddha Jayanti" in Kathmandu, Nepal. Lichhavis were related to Buddha's clan the Shakyas.[/QUOTE]


He was at the Beas River because he was a King who wished to expand his Empire. The Western fringes of his Kingdom was being threatened by Seleucus. He was almost certainly of native origin as all sources point to this, no sources to my knowledge call him a Saka mercenary. His Kingdom was a continuation of the Magadha Kingdoms of Pataliputra. All of which have native origins.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magadha_Empire

Why would a "Saka mercenary" travel all the way to Bihar and carry on the Magadha Kingdoms and use the native clan name "Maurya"? He was from Pataliputra, unless there is solid evidence to refute this then I see no other reason to discuss this.

He was no king in the east, east was Nanda Empire at that time and it extended into the Greater Punjab and was considered a very bad one too. Battle in the east was lost and a lesson learned, and then it was from Punjab not Patna, we have a Maur Jatt clan in the west, may be they are related, time will tell, the Genetics I mean. Lichavis in the north and Ezhavas in the south, known to be the missionaries sent by Ashoka the Great to Sri Lanka, I guess, again something needs to be looked into, Genetics connection.

surbakhunWeesste
05-13-2015, 12:20 AM
The Newari Shakya that I knew growing up was a Buddhist. So my impression has been that Newar Shakyas are all Buddhist. Newars can be either Hindu or Buddhist depending on the surname. I had Manandhar friends who wore Janai.


All present day Shakyas are Buddhist yes, I mentioned in my post: their ancestors were strict followers of Buddha. All Nepalese who identify mostly follow Mahayana Buddishm also popularly known as Tibetan Buddishm . All newars of Kathmandu will call themselves Buddhist first then a hindu.
One interesting stuff, "Kumari" a nepalese hindu living goddess is strictly chosen from a Shakya or a Bajracharya family. There are certain pre and post conditions to be met for a girl to be appointed Kumari. One of the fascinating stuff amongst others, since she has to come from one of the Buddhist family. She is worshipped by all Nepalese who follow Buddhism and Hindusim.

But as a nepali you must know since I observed that as a foreigner: most Nepalis except for some Brahmins in Kathmandu and vicinity (correct me if I am wrong) will identify as and practice Hinduism and Buddhism! I saw that phenomena or rather a religious culture/tradition in cities there and not so much in rural villages.

EDIT: Ah, just remembered. During Dashera, most or all newars won't practice the ritual sacrifice "bali" for the goddesses, since killing a living thing is considered against the teachings of Buddha.
The chariot festivals: mostly newars are involved such like Rato Machindranath jatra are some amazing stuff to observe.

Toor
05-13-2015, 12:35 AM
EDIT: Having said that,some Shakyas and Bajrachayras are also likely the descendants od "Lichhavis" or at least some claim the lineage, according to some old literature found in Nepal. Lichhavis had one "asti dhatu" of Buddha which is kept in "Syambhunath" and is displayed on his birthday "Buddha Jayanti" in Kathmandu, Nepal. Lichhavis were related to Buddha's clan the Shakyas.
He was no king in the east, east was Nanda Empire at that time and it extended into the Greater Punjab and was considered a very bad one too. Battle in the east was lost and a lesson learned, and then it was from Punjab not Patna, we have a Maur Jatt clan in the west, may be they are related, time will tell, the Genetics I mean. Lichavis in the north and Ezhavas in the south, known to be the missionaries sent by Ashoka the Great to Sri Lanka, I guess, again something needs to be looked into, Genetics connection.

You have a very odd interpretation of history, Nanda Empire and Maurya Empire did not exist in the same time period. The Maurya Empire replaced the old Nanda Empire which was based in Pataliputra.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oAo1X2eagywC&pg=PA33&dq=mauryan+empire+pataliputra&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gJtSVaaRLure7AakmgM&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=mauryan%20empire%20pataliputra&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q5kI02_zW70C&pg=PA200&dq=mauryan+empire+pataliputra&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uJtSVfCBM6uv7AbG1YDoAQ&redir_esc=y
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6QPWXrCCzBIC&pg=PA46&dq=nanda+empire+and+mauryan+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ei=05tSVdGIBIuS7Aa7i4CoBQ&redir_esc=y

You are now venturing into pseudo-history and sounding very similar to the claims made by people on Jatland. I mean now Cholas are also connected to Jatts? Lol stop trying to steal other peoples history without any proof except some inferences.

paulgill
05-13-2015, 12:36 AM
All present day Shakyas are Buddhist yes, I mentioned in my post: their ancestors were strict followers of Buddha. All Nepalese who identify mostly follow Mahayana Buddishm also popularly known as Tibetan Buddishm . All newars of Kathmandu will call themselves Buddhist first then a hindu.
One interesting stuff, "Kumari" a nepalese hindu living god is strictly chosen from a Shakya or a Bajracharya family. There are certain pre and post conditions to be met for a girl to be appointed Kumari. One of the fascinating stuff amongst others, since she has to come from one of the Buddhist family. She is worshipped by all Nepalese who follow Buddhism and Hindusim.

But as a nepali you must know since I observed that as a foreigner: most Nepalis except for some Brahmins in Kathmandu and vicinity (correct me if I am wrong) will identify as and practice Hinduism and Buddhism! I saw that phenomena or rather a religious culture/tradition in cities there and not so much in rural villages.

EDIT: Ah, just remembered. During Dashera, most or all newars won't practice the ritual sacrifice "bali" for the goddesses, since killing a living thing is considered against the teachings of Buddha.

Were you on some study project there, is this Kumari tradition basically among the Lichavais, has this Lichavais name actually come from the goddess Laxshmi?

paulgill
05-13-2015, 12:39 AM
You have a very odd interpretation of history, Nanda Empire and Maurya Empire did not exist in the same time period. The Maurya Empire replaced the old Nanda Empire which was based in Pataliputra.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oAo1X2eagywC&pg=PA33&dq=mauryan+empire+pataliputra&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gJtSVaaRLure7AakmgM&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=mauryan%20empire%20pataliputra&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Q5kI02_zW70C&pg=PA200&dq=mauryan+empire+pataliputra&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uJtSVfCBM6uv7AbG1YDoAQ&redir_esc=y
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6QPWXrCCzBIC&pg=PA46&dq=nanda+empire+and+mauryan+empire&hl=en&sa=X&ei=05tSVdGIBIuS7Aa7i4CoBQ&redir_esc=y

You are now venturing into pseudo-history and sounding very similar to the claims made by people on Jatland. I mean now Cholas are also connected to Jatts? Lol stop trying to steal other peoples history without any proof except some inferences.

That is exactly what I am saying, you are reading me wrong, Maurya Empire replaced the Nanda Empire starting from the Greater Punjab, not Pataliaputra.

surbakhunWeesste
05-13-2015, 12:56 AM
Were you on some study project there, is this Kumari tradition basically among the Lichavais, has this Lichavais name actually come from the goddess Laxshmi?

No, I lived n Nepal for extended periods because of my parents work. Also, I have distant family members who live there. I don't remember much about Licchavis to tell you more but I do know they came from Bihar. If I remember more, I will write here.
Goddess Kumari is the living form of Taleju bhavani who is also a form of goddess Kali. She is supposed to have tantric powers.
My knowledge on this matter is limited.

everest59
05-13-2015, 01:03 AM
All present day Shakyas are Buddhist yes, I mentioned in my post: their ancestors were strict followers of Buddha. All Nepalese who identify mostly follow Mahayana Buddishm also popularly known as Tibetan Buddishm . All newars of Kathmandu will call themselves Buddhist first then a hindu.
One interesting stuff, "Kumari" a nepalese hindu living goddess is strictly chosen from a Shakya or a Bajracharya family. There are certain pre and post conditions to be met for a girl to be appointed Kumari. One of the fascinating stuff amongst others, since she has to come from one of the Buddhist family. She is worshipped by all Nepalese who follow Buddhism and Hindusim.

But as a nepali you must know since I observed that as a foreigner: most Nepalis except for some Brahmins in Kathmandu and vicinity (correct me if I am wrong) will identify as and practice Hinduism and Buddhism! I saw that phenomena or rather a religious culture/tradition in cities there and not so much in rural villages.

EDIT: Ah, just remembered. During Dashera, most or all newars won't practice the ritual sacrifice "bali" for the goddesses, since killing a living thing is considered against the teachings of Buddha.
The chariot festivals: mostly newars are involved such like Rato Machindranath jatra are some amazing stuff to observe.

Well, I have been to Buddhist temples like Boudha and Swambhunath before. I guess we practice both to some extent.
As far as Kumari, I think she is important only in Kathmandu, but I may be wrong. I see it as more of a Newari festival, although everybody in Kathmandu celebrates it. Actually, Kathmandu is a Newar majority city, but you see tons of other ethnicites there these days.
I was born and raised in Kathmandu. Sad to see the situation there. Another earthquake at 7.3, but my relatives are all in good health.
Well, the bali thing must be mainly bahun/chettri.
Btw, Newars can have bahun/brahmin surnames like Sharma, and there are Newars with surname ending in Jha. Now, Jha is a Terai Brahmin surname. Newars have some interesting surnames.

bored
05-13-2015, 01:07 AM
Jatts do practice female infanticide, for that reason they won't have enough women around to marry, so some finally end up getting such women, I have seen Brahmin women married to Jatts but never a Jatt woman married to any outsider, and none of those women from outside, though married to Jatts been the Jatt women, now ask yourself why? Jatts will kill the woman and the outsider if such a thing happens.


Wow great culture you have there.

everest59
05-13-2015, 01:08 AM
No, I lived n Nepal for extended periods because of my parents work. Also, I have distant family members who live there. I don't remember much about Licchavis to tell you more but I do know they came from Bihar. If I remember more, I will write here.
Goddess Kumari is the living form of Taleju bhavani who is also a form of goddess Kali. She is supposed to have tantric powers.
My knowledge on this matter is limited.

If I remember, you speak Nepali a little bit, right?

surbakhunWeesste
05-13-2015, 01:22 AM
If I remember, you speak Nepali a little bit, right?
Yes, I do :)

paulgill
05-13-2015, 01:55 AM
Wow great culture you have there.

Yes, something terrible, really sickening, I hope it changes soon.

parasar
05-13-2015, 12:24 PM
That is exactly what I am saying, you are reading me wrong, Maurya Empire replaced the Nanda Empire starting from the Greater Punjab, not Pataliaputra.

First at that time there was nothing like the Greater Punjab. It was Gandhara Madra and Takka.
Second the Republican states of the five rivers region were totally opposed to empire building.

Toor
05-13-2015, 01:02 PM
That is exactly what I am saying, you are reading me wrong, Maurya Empire replaced the Nanda Empire starting from the Greater Punjab, not Pataliaputra.
Do you have any reputable sources to back this up? It seems you are just rewriting history to suit some agenda.

tamilgangster
05-13-2015, 01:08 PM
I was new to genetics and didn have clear understanding of the subject when i posted that but my friend (Yadav/Ahir) from Haryana did say that its very popular in Haryana among villagers to say that some Haryanvi jatts are bastards of British soldiers and officers and i didn ask him are they or somethin like that, I just asked him are jatts in Haryana looks different from other Haryanvis and i asked it long time ago when i was more into phenotype.

Second, My friend is not just some illiterate or somethin like that, He is a Comminsioned officer in Indian Army and yet he told me that and how much truth is there in what he said i don't know but i shared what i heard.

There is a similar story that i heard in Karnataka while i was there from my friends (Native from Karnataka) about coorg (in karnataka) people, some said coorg used to have red light areas for British officers or soldiers and thats why sometimes you see some light skinned or haired people in coorg and again i don' know how much truth is there in it.


on a side note, Some Northern Indians states do have obsession with being English or european and you can see it in their first name and surnames that they adopted over the last 200-300 years .







Its mainly christian communities, who like to claim european descent especially mangalorean catholics and goans. Very few communities would be proud to be british descended. No indian would ever bre proud to be british descended. North indians though can be obssessed about being aryan or scythian descended

tamilgangster
05-13-2015, 01:14 PM
Lucky, happy etc. names you will find among all groups, they are nick names and don't become surnames.

Ezhava, I have heard about them before, I don't think that those studies are in depth or detailed studies, I hope someone cares to have some FGS on some of those, or at least the FTDNA SNPs Panel test to find out more about the subclades they belong to.

My guess is that if they are truly closely related to Punjabi Jatts, then we are most likely looking at the community of the Mauriyas, it is said that they were sent to Sri Lanka to spread Buddhism, they most likely were the soldiers of Ashoka's army, and we all know that Chandra Gupta Mauriya was from Punjab. Another possibility is that they are a part of the Sakya clan of Gautama the Buddha, who were related to Punjabi Jatts, this one actually explains why Punjabi Jatts have lower Eurasian component than the Hariyana Jatts because they are in India for longer time thus more mixed with the locals, there is yet another possibility, these a part of Punjabi Jatts ventures further southwest later and mixed with the south Indians.

Kenji Aryan, I think once we know much more about the subclades of different groups, we will have better idea about the relationship and movements of these groups. And then on top of that if we can find something in the written history, even folklore, things will become much more clear.

RU serious Maurya was from bihar lol. First you say their were no jatts before the scythians now your saying than chandragupta maurya used jatt soldier.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-13-2015, 01:15 PM
Its mainly christian communities, who like to claim european descent especially mangalorean catholics and goans. Very few communities would be proud to be british descended. No indian would ever bre proud to be british descended. North indians though can be obssessed about being aryan or scythian descended

99.9% north Indians don't even know who scythians were. Aryan is a well used term and many have started believing that aryans did come.

tamilgangster
05-13-2015, 01:17 PM
Jatts don't care about Brahmins Varna status. But the Varna status been forced by Brahmins on one and all, people been fooled into believing that their this status is the result of their Past Karma. God did not come to tell people that they were untouchables or that Brahmins were the highest, it been just a system devised by a group to control the masses, by brain washing the illiterate and unsuspecting victims.

Who are these Arab Scholars? Can't you see what kind of scholarship they possess? Who told them that Ahirs and Yadavs belong to Lord Krishna's Lineage? Allah or Brahmins? And that Jatt are low status, if true, what were the Jatts doing in the Muslim Armies, would you hire such low status people in your army, what status does a soldier belongs to, do you have any idea? Do you really need me to tell you why they behaved differently with Brahmins, I hope not? Why Brahmins gave Muslims the status of untouchable and why the Greeks and British rulers were also afforded the same status of untouchables?

I think you would need to call Gorakh Sinha to answer that for you, it is not only known to us but to all Brahmins who read such Sanskrit literature, I did not learn about it on the internet first, but from a few Sanniyasis.

Mughals used of "low class" tribal groups for their armies. Low castes have always been recruited as foot soldiers, but generals were usually kshatriyas

tamilgangster
05-13-2015, 01:19 PM
99.9% north Indians don't even know who scythians were. Aryan is a well used term and many have started believing that aryans did come.

Im talking specifically about jatts who know about their lineage and also groups like gujjars. Most people in general dont care about lineage and would not know. But there is way more obsession with scythian decent than european descent among north indians. European descent is more of a christian obsession

Toor
05-13-2015, 01:26 PM
Mughals used of "low class" tribal groups for their armies. Low castes have always been recruited as foot soldiers, but generals were usually kshatriyas
Tribal Bhils were recruited for there expertise in archery. High caste Biharis were also recruited, the Mughal general Qazi Abul Mukkaram was killed after the Bihari Rajput recruits rebelled against him.

tamilgangster
05-13-2015, 01:29 PM
I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that Chandragupta Maurya was from Punjab, he belonged to the Maurya caste who were elevated to Kshatriya status. They are not found anywhere outside of Eastern India. Almost all sources point to his place of birth as being around the villages of Pataliputra. Chanakaya may have been from Punjab but there is only one source supporting this.

maurya caste today is considered scheduled caste though ironiclly

Toor
05-13-2015, 01:45 PM
maurya caste today is considered scheduled caste though ironiclly
Yeah they're considered a branch of the Kushwaha.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurya_caste
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushwaha

parasar
05-13-2015, 03:15 PM
The Newari Shakya that I knew growing up was a Buddhist. So my impression has been that Newar Shakyas are all Buddhist. Newars can be either Hindu or Buddhist depending on the surname. I had Manandhar friends who wore Janai.

everest59,

That Newari person you knew, was his name Shakya or Sakiya. There are folk who call themselves Shakya in the Lalitput-Patan region and the form of their name surprises me. Our caste still calls itself by the Pali form babhan for the most part. This despite tremendous internal pressure to call ourselves brahman over the past 200 years, especially in the 20th century.

Asoka's Delhi Inscription:
"Babhanesu ajivikesu"
https://books.google.com/books?id=msUUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA115
Asoka's Dhauli Inscription:
"babhana samanehi"
https://books.google.com/books?id=PK8IAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA243

Neighboring the Sakiyas were the Koliyas. Does anyone in Nepal call themselves Koliya?
https://books.google.com/books?id=OPEcHLvf33YC&pg=PA17
https://books.google.com/books?id=OPEcHLvf33YC&pg=PA172

paulgill
05-13-2015, 06:32 PM
The Y lines do not show even a trace of British influence. A connection is possible, but it is not historical.




Ashoka was well known but he is not accorded any particular elevated status beyond say Mahapadmananda, Chandragupta or Bindusara among the kings of Magadha in non-Buddhistic material. He is mentioned as Asoka/Asokavardhana in the Sanskrit texts - Vishnu, Vayu, Matsya etc. and Asoko and Dhammasoko in numerous Pali texts.

The question is why are Greek, Persian, and Aramaic accounts totally silent about him when at least the Greeks and Aramaics should have known him as he has inscriptions in those two languages! They obviously knew him, but in their forms Arsaces, Ashak, and Arshak, respectively.


First at that time there was nothing like the Greater Punjab. It was Gandhara Madra and Takka.
Second the Republican states of the five rivers region were totally opposed to empire building.

I am pointing to the area not the name of the area whatever it was known as at that time. The Nanda Empire extended beyond Yamuna River in the west, that is where they started encroaching upon the Nanda Empire, I think, after their initial attempt at Patliaputra failed.

Now Ashoka to the Greek, Persian, and Aramaics was known as Arsaces, Ashak, and Arshak, respectively, as you pointed out above, from that it is clear that they are none other than the Scythians, but who were these Mauryians, from the Northwest, new ones, or the same earlier Sakya clan of Gautama the Buddha?

paulgill
05-13-2015, 07:08 PM
The Y lines do not show even a trace of British influence. A connection is possible, but it is not historical.




Ashoka was well known but he is not accorded any particular elevated status beyond say Mahapadmananda, Chandragupta or Bindusara among the kings of Magadha in non-Buddhistic material. He is mentioned as Asoka/Asokavardhana in the Sanskrit texts - Vishnu, Vayu, Matsya etc. and Asoko and Dhammasoko in numerous Pali texts.

The question is why are Greek, Persian, and Aramaic accounts totally silent about him when at least the Greeks and Aramaics should have known him as he has inscriptions in those two languages! They obviously knew him, but in their forms Arsaces, Ashak, and Arshak, respectively.


First at that time there was nothing like the Greater Punjab. It was Gandhara Madra and Takka.
Second the Republican states of the five rivers region were totally opposed to empire building.


Do you have any reputable sources to back this up? It seems you are just rewriting history to suit some agenda.

I have no agenda whatsoever, first get this once forever, secondly stop treating others opinions as claims. We all are here to share information and see if any of it makes sense, all one can find is opinions, even written History is biased, NO? Did they start from Gujarat, Maharashtra, Andra Prades or Assam? Enlighten me if you can.

paulgill
05-13-2015, 08:08 PM
The Y lines do not show even a trace of British influence. A connection is possible, but it is not historical.




Ashoka was well known but he is not accorded any particular elevated status beyond say Mahapadmananda, Chandragupta or Bindusara among the kings of Magadha in non-Buddhistic material. He is mentioned as Asoka/Asokavardhana in the Sanskrit texts - Vishnu, Vayu, Matsya etc. and Asoko and Dhammasoko in numerous Pali texts.

The question is why are Greek, Persian, and Aramaic accounts totally silent about him when at least the Greeks and Aramaics should have known him as he has inscriptions in those two languages! They obviously knew him, but in their forms Arsaces, Ashak, and Arshak, respectively.


First at that time there was nothing like the Greater Punjab. It was Gandhara Madra and Takka.
Second the Republican states of the five rivers region were totally opposed to empire building.


Do you have any reputable sources to back this up? It seems you are just rewriting history to suit some agenda.


Mughals used of "low class" tribal groups for their armies. Low castes have always been recruited as foot soldiers, but generals were usually kshatriyas


RU serious Maurya was from bihar lol. First you say their were no jatts before the scythians now your saying than chandragupta maurya used jatt soldier.

Sakya Clan of Gautama the Buddha is considered to be Scythians, and he is considered to be the son of a Gaut mother. If Aryans can come from the north, can Scythians not?

But the situation here is that there is a group called Ezhavas, who are supposedly the Buddhist missionaries that Ashoka the great sent to south and again who supposedly are genetically related most closely to Punjabi Jatts, and then there are Lichavais in north who claim to belong to the Sakya Clan of Gautama the Buddha. What is to be seen is if all these three groups are truly genetically related, then you will have a better answer, better yet if the ancient DNA samples for Asoka the Great and Gautama the Buddha can be obtained and tested. This will prove that the Punjabi Jatts is an earlier lot of the Scythian in India, so more mixed with locals, thus have lower European component than Hariyanavi Jatts.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-13-2015, 09:01 PM
Sakya Clan of Gautama the Buddha is considered to be Scythians, and he is considered to be the son of a Gaut mother. If Aryans can come from the north, can Scythians not?

But the situation here is that there is a group called Ezhavas, who are supposedly the Buddhist missionaries that Ashoka the great sent to south and again who supposedly are genetically related most closely to Punjabi Jatts, and then there are Lichavais in north who claim to belong to the Sakya Clan of Gautama the Buddha. What is to be seen is if all these three groups are truly genetically related, then you will have a better answer, better yet if the ancient DNA samples for Asoka the Great and Gautama the Buddha can be obtained and tested. This will prove that the Punjabi Jatts is an earlier lot of the Scythian in India, so more mixed with locals, thus have lower European component than Hariyanavi Jatts.

Not true, not all punjabi jatts have been tested. I have a punjabi jatt in my connection who may have more European component than haryanvi jatts on the gedmatch calculators as he has the highest non south asian mixture I've seen. His ydna is same as me though. :)

tamilgangster
05-13-2015, 09:02 PM
Sakya Clan of Gautama the Buddha is considered to be Scythians, and he is considered to be the son of a Gaut mother. If Aryans can come from the north, can Scythians not?

But the situation here is that there is a group called Ezhavas, who are supposedly the Buddhist missionaries that Ashoka the great sent to south and again who supposedly are genetically related most closely to Punjabi Jatts, and then there are Lichavais in north who claim to belong to the Sakya Clan of Gautama the Buddha. What is to be seen is if all these three groups are truly genetically related, then you will have a better answer, better yet if the ancient DNA samples for Asoka the Great and Gautama the Buddha can be obtained and tested. This will prove that the Punjabi Jatts is an earlier lot of the Scythian in India, so more mixed with locals, thus have lower European component than Hariyanavi Jatts.

Do you have any evidience to back this up

Dr_McNinja
05-13-2015, 09:30 PM
Not true, not all punjabi jatts have been tested. I have a punjabi jatt in my connection who may have more European component than haryanvi jatts on the gedmatch calculators as he has the highest non south asian mixture I've seen. His ydna is same as me though. :)

There's a Jatt Sikh from Patiala (Sarao clan) who I found on my dad's cousin list. His admixture is just like Haryanvi Jatts in that he has the same amount of WHG, but he also has Baloch/Caucasian similar to Punjabis. I don't think he is a product of Haryana Jatts, but just native southeast Punjab, so whoever settled in Haryana also settled in neighboring areas and I guess it makes sense that Jatts in Southeast Punjab would have been as isolated/endogamous as those in Haryana, or almost as much. There's a bunch of Sidhus I found on Gedmatch who were almost as high, forming a gradient to the more Baloch/Sindhi-like Punjabi Jatts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE#gid=6 Harappa

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE#gid=22 ANE K7

MonkeyDLuffy
05-13-2015, 09:45 PM
There's a Jatt Sikh from Patiala (Sarao clan) who I found on my dad's cousin list. His admixture is just like Haryanvi Jatts in that he has the same amount of WHG, but he also has Baloch/Caucasian similar to Punjabis. I don't think he is a product of Haryana Jatts, but just native southeast Punjab, so whoever settled in Haryana also settled in neighboring areas and I guess it makes sense that Jatts in Southeast Punjab would have been as isolated/endogamous as those in Haryana, or almost as much. There's a bunch of Sidhus I found on Gedmatch who were almost as high, forming a gradient to the more Baloch/Sindhi-like Punjabi Jatts.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE#gid=6 Harappa

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE#gid=22 ANE K7

I am pming you his 23&me Id, if you can convince him to get on gedmatch that'd be awesome. I know so many guys who didn't ran their results on gedmatch, but have interesting mixture on 23&me.

pegasus
05-14-2015, 05:20 AM
I have no agenda whatsoever, first get this once forever, secondly stop treating others opinions as claims. We all are here to share information and see if any of it makes sense, all one can find is opinions, even written History is biased, NO? Did they start from Gujarat, Maharashtra, Andra Prades or Assam? Enlighten me if you can.

Really ?

You seem to be of the notion that Jatts are some diaspora Scythians. Sorry to bust your bubble they are not.
First according to you certain Jatt surnames are Neolithic in origin, which is impossible. There is hardly any mention of this community until the last 500 years.
They are mainly South Asian Agrarian communities which existed outside the Varna system.

Culturally , phenotypically they look no different from the other Indian/Pakistani groups they live with. Also I have seen quite a few who would have no issue passing as
upper caste South Indians.

If there are any groups which can lay claim to having some so called Scythian heritage, it would be the Ossetians and some Pamiri peoples in Afghanistan/Tajikistan.

paulgill
05-14-2015, 06:45 AM
Not true, not all punjabi jatts have been tested. I have a punjabi jatt in my connection who may have more European component than haryanvi jatts on the gedmatch calculators as he has the highest non south asian mixture I've seen. His ydna is same as me though. :)

We are talking about averages here not about individuals.

Besides this point.

I apologize for not understanding your point in an earlier discussion regarding the high European component in your grandfather, it just didn't click then. Yes, it needed no mixing up with Baloch, it could as easily come from your own community, as the Tarkhan community in that area probably had Pashtune like components because they were living much west of Punjab then, and for that reason were less mixed with the people from further south east.

paulgill
05-14-2015, 07:02 AM
Do you have any evidience to back this up

Real evidence is the Genetic evidence, especially the ancient one. But for now Licchavis to Ezhavas, connection sounds good and their genetic connection should be explored.

I know that they don't cremate the Enlightened ones, so there are chances that Gautama the Buddha, Chandera Gupta Mauriya and Chankya's bodies were preserved and buried, not cremated, if ever found will reveal the secret.

paulgill
05-14-2015, 07:11 AM
Really ?

You seem to be of the notion that Jatts are some diaspora Scythians. Sorry to bust your bubble they are not.
First according to you certain Jatt surnames are Neolithic in origin, which is impossible. There is hardly any mention of this community until the last 500 years.
They are mainly South Asian Agrarian communities which existed outside the Varna system.

Culturally , phenotypically they look no different from the other Indian/Pakistani groups they live with. Also I have seen quite a few who would have no issue passing as
upper caste South Indians.

If there are any groups which can lay claim to having some so called Scythian heritage, it would be the Ossetians and some Pamiri peoples in Afghanistan/Tajikistan.

Hilarious, where is your evidence more than your mumbo jumbo. I think you have a bad habit to burst your own bubble, I talked to you about this before, but your memory seem to have failed you again.

surbakhunWeesste
05-14-2015, 07:41 AM
We are talking about averages here not about individuals.

Besides this point.

I apologize for not understanding your point in an earlier discussion regarding the high European component in your grandfather, it just didn't click then. Yes, it needed no mixing up with Baloch, it could as easily come from your own community, as the Tarkhan community in that area probably had Pashtune like components because they were living much west of Punjab then, and for that reason were less mixed with the people from further south east.

What's "Pashtune like components" ?

surbakhunWeesste
05-14-2015, 07:44 AM
Real evidence is the Genetic evidence, especially the ancient one. But for now Licchavis to Ezhavas, connection sounds good and their genetic connection should be explored.

I know that they don't cremate the Enlightened ones, so there are chances that Gautama the Buddha, Chandera Gupta Mauriya and Chankya's bodies were preserved and buried, not cremated, if ever found will reveal the secret.

If Buddha's body was not cremated, how do you think the "asti dhatu" came into existence?

paulgill
05-14-2015, 08:29 AM
If Buddha's body was not cremated, how do you think the "asti dhatu" came into existence?

I did not say that his body was not cremated, what actually I said was that the tradition is Not to cremate the body of an Enlightened One, so I expect that they too followed the tradition.

The reason behind it is that the man have to much attachment to the body and if you bury it the soul remains around it due to the attachment to the body and soul's spiritual growth stops. In order to hasten the spiritual growth the body is cremated and soul is told that the body is like a dress and the dead body is akin to the worn out useless dress and like a new dress the soul can take another birth in a new body, and is asked to crossover and then according to the remaining karma eventually be born again.

Enlightenment comes only once all the accumulated karma is exhausted. As the Enlightened One have no karma thus no attachment, so there is no need to cremate his body, and it be buried in a Tomb in a sitting position(yoga Asana, meditating position) and devotees may worship him.

paulgill
05-14-2015, 08:33 AM
Whsat's "Pashtune like components" ?

Higher European, Caucasian, Iranic and West Asian aDna compared to North Indians.

tamilgangster
05-14-2015, 09:03 AM
Real evidence is the Genetic evidence, especially the ancient one. But for now Licchavis to Ezhavas, connection sounds good and their genetic connection should be explored.

I know that they don't cremate the Enlightened ones, so there are chances that Gautama the Buddha, Chandera Gupta Mauriya and Chankya's bodies were preserved and buried, not cremated, if ever found will reveal the secret.

Ezhavas lack northern europen component on harappa dna, so theirs no way they are related to jatts

kenji.aryan
05-14-2015, 09:13 AM
Ezhavas lack northern europen component on harappa dna, so theirs no way they are related to jatts

http://s10.postimg.org/w0dspbyex/Croat_Med_J_52_0344_F1.jpg


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118723/

pegasus
05-14-2015, 09:28 AM
Ezhavas lack northern europen component on harappa dna, so theirs no way they are related to jatts

NE component on Harappa wrt South Asians is mostly just hidden ANE.
Conversely in Northern Europeans their Baloch is just hidden ANE.

paulgill
05-14-2015, 09:49 AM
Ezhavas lack northern europen component on harappa dna, so theirs no way they are related to jatts

Y-Dna what we are talking about, aDna is gone in 6 to 8 generation.

tamilgangster
05-14-2015, 09:49 AM
NE component on Harappa wrt South Asians is mostly just hidden ANE.
Conversely in Northern Europeans their Baloch is just hidden ANE.

Its actually is a combination of WHG and ANE associated with Yamnyana and Scythians

pegasus
05-14-2015, 09:50 AM
Its actually is a combination of WHG and ANE associated with Yamnyana and Scythians

But its mostly ANE.

speedyran
05-14-2015, 09:53 AM
Really ?

You seem to be of the notion that Jatts are some diaspora Scythians. Sorry to bust your bubble they are not.
First according to you certain Jatt surnames are Neolithic in origin, which is impossible. There is hardly any mention of this community until the last 500 years.
They are mainly South Asian Agrarian communities which existed outside the Varna system.

Culturally , phenotypically they look no different from the other Indian/Pakistani groups they live with. Also I have seen quite a few who would have no issue passing as
upper caste South Indians.

If there are any groups which can lay claim to having some so called Scythian heritage, it would be the Ossetians and some Pamiri peoples in Afghanistan/Tajikistan.

Your tendency is to blabber on, and post stuff that you must have read online somewhere and cite that as evidence when much of that stuff is guesswork by writers on blogs or books.

The Jatt community was mentioned at least 1300 years ago. They are associated with agriculture because thats what they have been doing now in the known documented period, not necessarily what they were always doing further back in time, or at least what all of them were doing back in time. Not just Jatts but large parts of the population in the region have always been outside the Varna system and they considered this system to be a load of codswallop.

How could you know about "culturally the same" if you have no direct association with that area, region or any groups there? You have no idea at all. Jatt culture and way of life was and still is substantially different to most others around them. few examples. Bhangra dance is only from the Jatt culture. Recently others around them started copying this dance, and now do it at their weddings and other functions. Same way Jatts marriage customs are very different historically to the others around them. Nowadays there are similarities and generally it is the others copying from Jatt customs. Jatts have always allowed widow remarriage whereas the others did not allow that and some of them even practised Sati widow burning at husbands funeral whilst others ostracised widows.

If you are South Indian or not from the area, you would not know about cultural or other differences or about phenotype differences that can occur.
example, in USA pres Obama and his wife both got direct Irish ancestors but can you tell that looking at them? You might well have seen Jatts who could pass as south Indians but on average you will find many more Brahmins passing as south Indians when Brahmins are supposed to be Aryan descended.

bored
05-14-2015, 10:42 AM
Your tendency is to blabber on, and post stuff that you must have read online somewhere and cite that as evidence when much of that stuff is guesswork by writers on blogs or books.

The Jatt community was mentioned at least 1300 years ago. They are associated with agriculture because thats what they have been doing now in the known documented period, not necessarily what they were always doing further back in time, or at least what all of them were doing back in time. Not just Jatts but large parts of the population in the region have always been outside the Varna system and they considered this system to be a load of codswallop.

How could you know about "culturally the same" if you have no direct association with that area, region or any groups there? You have no idea at all. Jatt culture and way of life was and still is substantially different to most others around them. few examples. Bhangra dance is only from the Jatt culture. Recently others around them started copying this dance, and now do it at their weddings and other functions. Same way Jatts marriage customs are very different historically to the others around them. Nowadays there are similarities and generally it is the others copying from Jatt customs. Jatts have always allowed widow remarriage whereas the others did not allow that and some of them even practised Sati widow burning at husbands funeral whilst others ostracised widows.

If you are South Indian or not from the area, you would not know about cultural or other differences or about phenotype differences that can occur.
example, in USA pres Obama and his wife both got direct Irish ancestors but can you tell that looking at them? You might well have seen Jatts who could pass as south Indians but on average you will find many more Brahmins passing as south Indians when Brahmins are supposed to be Aryan descended.

What is it with Jatts and constant comparisons to Brahmins? It's like every second online Jatt has a gripe against Brahmins and is absolutely obsessed with his caste/tribe. Holy shit. Get a grip.
Yea your ancestors were farmers. They allowed widow marriage. They performed honor killings and didn't allow their women to marry other tribes. None of this is relevant. Everyone is copying Jatts? I guarantee that 99% of people have either never heard of and/or don't care about your farmer culture. I don't see the point of contests.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-14-2015, 02:13 PM
We are talking about averages here not about individuals.

Besides this point.

I apologize for not understanding your point in an earlier discussion regarding the high European component in your grandfather, it just didn't click then. Yes, it needed no mixing up with Baloch, it could as easily come from your own community, as the Tarkhan community in that area probably had Pashtune like components because they were living much west of Punjab then, and for that reason were less mixed with the people from further south east.

Even with average, we just have 2-3 haryana jatt samples, while there are so many punjabi jatt samples. So its not a good comparison. And I've mentioned this before, gedrosia/baloch components peaks in my community. On individual level there will always be surprises with some users results.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-14-2015, 02:22 PM
How could you know about "culturally the same" if you have no direct association with that area, region or any groups there? You have no idea at all. Jatt culture and way of life was and still is substantially different to most others around them. few examples. Bhangra dance is only from the Jatt culture. Recently others around them started copying this dance, and now do it at their weddings and other functions. Same way Jatts marriage customs are very different historically to the others around them. Nowadays there are similarities and generally it is the others copying from Jatt customs. Jatts have always allowed widow remarriage whereas the others did not allow that and some of them even practised Sati widow burning at husbands funeral whilst others ostracised widows.


Please provide sources to that. I am a fellow punjabi as well, and would love to know what we copied from you guys.

With that post the post quality of this thread has drastically decreased. I am sorry.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-14-2015, 02:24 PM
Go and see a Sanyassin then talk, they all know about Deva Samhita, that is exactly how I came to know about it. I was present when a Brahmin who obviously was tossed around like anything by Jatts complained and said something like some people say about Jatts here and the Sanyassin immediately interrupted him and reminded him of Deva Samhita and told him never to talk such nonsense about Jatts again, the Brahmin bowed down and promised not to behave that way ever again.

You obviously sound like a muhajir on the Harrapa Project, who knew little but talked too much nonsense.

I am sure pegasus he is familiar with our region :)

parasar
05-14-2015, 03:15 PM
I am pointing to the area not the name of the area whatever it was known as at that time. The Nanda Empire extended beyond Yamuna River in the west, that is where they started encroaching upon the Nanda Empire, I think, after their initial attempt at Patliaputra failed.

Now Ashoka to the Greek, Persian, and Aramaics was known as Arsaces, Ashak, and Arshak, respectively, as you pointed out above, from that it is clear that they are none other than the Scythians, but who were these Mauryians, from the Northwest, new ones, or the same earlier Sakya clan of Gautama the Buddha?

The Moriyas are one of the components of the Vajji clans. They were a type of scythian no doubt as Vajji literally means nomad. They had come to occupy the modern region of modern E. UP, N. Bihar and the Nepal terai in the pre-Buddha period. They may have come in from the north-west but before the Buddha period.

The Greeks have detailed description of the modern Punjab area and none of the Vajjis - Licchavi (Vesali), Bhaggas (Sumsumara), Bulis (Allakappa), Kalamas (Kesaputta), Videhas (Mithila), Moriyas (Pipphalivana), or Jnatrika (Pava) - are mentioned there.

Vajji was one the sixteen Janapadas of northern India - Anga, Magadha, Vajji, Kasi, Kosala, Malla, Chedi, Vatsa, Kuru, Panchala, Matsya, Surasena, Assaka, Avanti, Gandhara and Kamboja.

So why one the Vajjis - the Moriyas - would be from outside the Vajji Janapada is difficult to understand.

BMG
05-14-2015, 03:18 PM
Ezhavas lack northern europen component on harappa dna, so theirs no way they are related to jatts
No they do have northern European component in harappa calculator albeit at lower levels 3-4%

parasar
05-14-2015, 03:53 PM
http://s10.postimg.org/w0dspbyex/Croat_Med_J_52_0344_F1.jpg


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118723/

Going by STRs that are just from "8 short tandem repeat (STR) loci" is nearly useless.

Nevertheless one can see that the only haplotype that "was found to be common to all 4 populations, with a very high incidence (8/108) in the Jat Sikh population of north India" happens to have an R1a1 signature:

16 11,14 13 30 25 11 11 13 1 8 2 2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118723/table/T4/

MonkeyDLuffy
05-14-2015, 06:10 PM
Thanks, I had earlier asked him to reveal his identity but he won't.

He might be half Kashmiri Brahmin and if he is, then I can understand his behaviour. But no matter how much he knows about Jatts as an outsider, there are always things that one can know only if one is an insider.

Compared to him you are much closer to the Jatt community, and I know there are things there that even you won't know about Jatts. How often when mad at someone you say, "Me tera khoon pee Jayoonga"? either you never say it, or you say that much less often than a Jatt does, even Jatt women will say that much more often than you ever do, it comes right from Scythian Massagetae, as they used to drink the blood of their fallen enemy.

I said Pushtune as I remembered you mentioning your high east Euro component. Anyways living much to the west means less south Indian component.

I am learning lots of things from this thread. Thank you.

Toor
05-14-2015, 06:21 PM
I know Haryanvis say that a lot as well. Pegasus is making comments about Bihari people and comparing them to tribals.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-14-2015, 06:26 PM
I know Haryanvis say that a lot as well. Pegasus is making comments about Bihari people and comparing them to tribals.

I am really interested in central asians and i am south asian. Would that be considered weird too?

Anyway my previous comment was sarcasm. It is common line used by lots of communities. You and paulgill don't have much experience with India but i have lived with people of this community, in chandigarh. There are differences but claims like drinking blood or inventing bhangra sounds Bs.

Even to me biharis were only labour tribal class until i met few educated families in delhi. And learned about their diversity on the thread you made. Its the same stereotypical behaviour some westerners shows by saying all Indians look like raj koothrapali.

Even my community has been observed to be decedents of scythians, sakas to be exact. They might be, but so much has happened in past few centuries, its hard to trace any tribe origins. I agree with paul gill on that the small traditions that have survived to this day are good ways to know about origin though.

pegasus
05-14-2015, 06:42 PM
I know Haryanvis say that a lot as well. Pegasus is making comments about Bihari people and comparing them to tribals.

I did not compare them to tribals, and well there is nothing wrong with that either. Since a large part of that area has a strong tribal element, and Gondid types are very much visible based of pictures I hav seen. I find it hilarious your stalking my posts and forming poor assumptions.

I am familiar with NW South Asians, not so much Central Indians, but based of the the many pics I have seen, most of them were in range of what some other members presented, and oddly you posted your own personal pic, which made no sense.



I am what I am , in any case, it seems your rather vexed for no reason.

Toor
05-14-2015, 07:13 PM
I did not compare them to tribals, and well there is nothing wrong with that either. Since a large part of that area has a strong tribal element, and Gondid types are very much visible based of pictures I hav seen. I find it hilarious your stalking my posts and forming poor assumptions.

I am familiar with NW South Asians, not so much Central Indians, but based of the the many pics I have seen, most of them were in range of what some other members presented, and oddly you posted your own personal pic, which made no sense.



I am what I am , in any case, it seems your rather vexed for no reason.
I don't want to go off topic so I'll keep it short. Where did I stalk your posts? I merely based my assumption on where you quoted me. And na I'm not vexed either.

Dr_McNinja
05-14-2015, 07:23 PM
Guys, keep it civil otherwise this thread will be closed.

Peterparker
05-14-2015, 07:29 PM
Are their Jatt communities that have settled outside of the NW part of the Subcontinent? And how to the Jatti traditions compare/contrast with other groups who claim to have similar origins (huns and scythian) ?

MonkeyDLuffy
05-14-2015, 08:05 PM
Are their Jatt communities that have settled outside of the NW part of the Subcontinent? And how to the Jatti traditions compare/contrast with other groups who claim to have similar origins (huns and scythian) ?

So far only few NW SA tribes have been thought of decendants of scythians. Rest from my observation in pinds, because of strong influence from sufis, sikhism and hinduism, majority of traditions were same among all communities. Except worshipping fire along with vishawakarma is something i only found in my community. I've also mentioned before that traditions like jathera or satiya is only practiced by few communities as well. Paulgill is a jatt user and he can explain what differences he thinks are exclusive to jatts, i would love to learn too.

Dr_McNinja
05-14-2015, 08:11 PM
Even with average, we just have 2-3 haryana jatt samples, while there are so many punjabi jatt samples. So its not a good comparison. And I've mentioned this before, gedrosia/baloch components peaks in my community. On individual level there will always be surprises with some users results.I've got 3 in my sheets but there are several more on Harappa plus Rajasthani Jatts who are similar, so it's closer to a dozen.

Dr_McNinja
05-14-2015, 11:02 PM
Paulgill, please refrain from making personal insults against others. Ad hominem doesn't aid in proving any point.

Also, all that history is interesting but doesn't belong in this thread or sub-forum.

jesus
05-14-2015, 11:06 PM
Few questions:

1- Is there any East Iranian(Other than Pashto) influence specific to Dialects and Languages spoken by Jatts ?
2- Is there any place in India called " Sakastan " or Sistan ?

paulgill
05-14-2015, 11:28 PM
I am really interested in central asians and i am south asian. Would that be considered weird too?

Anyway my previous comment was sarcasm. It is common line used by lots of communities. You and paulgill don't have much experience with India but i have lived with people of this community, in chandigarh. There are differences but claims like drinking blood or inventing bhangra sounds Bs.

Even to me biharis were only labour tribal class until i met few educated families in delhi. And learned about their diversity on the thread you made. Its the same stereotypical behaviour some westerners shows by saying all Indians look like raj koothrapali.

Even my community has been observed to be decedents of scythians, sakas to be exact. They might be, but so much has happened in past few centuries, its hard to trace any tribe origins. I agree with paul gill on that the small traditions that have survived to this day are good ways to know about origin though.

Who these traditions originally belong to and who have simply adopted them later, may also be determined by looking at which community to what degree follows it, just like the Hap frequency and diversification etc. And there are many more such traditions there. But as we have a new tool which can trace our lineage with much more certainty and the ancient samples can also give some hint of the ancient history too, I think it is only wise to go this route and leave this mumbo jumbo behind where an outsider comes and tells you who you are, as if he knows any better.

Chandigarh is not a place to learn traditions and how one group may be different than the other, because people there are all trying to adjust to that environment and the crude and subtle hints that really make the difference wont be seen much, or may be missed altogether.

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05-14-2015, 11:32 PM
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surbakhunWeesste
05-15-2015, 09:04 PM
Few questions:

1- Is there any East Iranian(Other than Pashto) influence specific to Dialects and Languages spoken by Jatts ?
2- Is there any place in India called " Sakastan " or Sistan ?

There is a Pashto influence in the dialects-languages spoken by Jatts?

Sistan is Kandahar, Zabul, Helmand,Nimroz and parts of Baluchestan, no? There is another Sistan in India?

parasar
05-15-2015, 09:59 PM
There is a Pashto influence in the dialects-languages spoken by Jatts?

Sistan is Kandahar, Zabul, Helmand,Nimroz and parts of Baluchestan, no? There is another Sistan in India?

Sakastan became Sajistan became Seisan/Sistan. It is referred to as Sacastene in Greek sources. The modern theory is that it was the country of a people called the Sacae who occupied it after Alexander and prior to the Parthian period, as Greeks of Alexander's period do not mention it.

Another derivation would be the land of the Saka - teak - tree. Which would also translate to its equivalent Arabic form, and to the Indic Sakadvipa - the land of the Saka tree.

https://books.google.com/books?id=r29BAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA2&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2GMC67DD7P1J6VUeK4-4VwHbforA&ci=291%2C323%2C640%2C84&edge=0

Coldmountains
05-15-2015, 10:27 PM
Except of the unusual amounts of WHG and" North European" admixture among Jatts there is hardly a connection between modern Jatts and Scythians. There are also other ways to explain their more "northern" DNA. They could also just represent a originally very small local population which better preserved early Indo-Aryan ancestry because of (social) isolation and their far northwestern location. I am not an expert about Jatts and my knowledge about them is very limited but claims about a Scythian orgin are created for almost every ethic group or tribe in Asia. We don't know what happened with Scythians in India and how numerous was the Scythian population there. Maybe they left almost no genetic traces like later Mughals or they indeed belong to the ancestors of some Indians. Jatts are linguistically fully Indo-Aryan and I have not heard anything about East Iranian influences in languages spoken by them. Culturally their traditions can be different interpreted but they lack traditions which have a confirmed East Iranic origin and could not develop locally. All this didn't disprove that they have Scythian ancestors but except of the "northern genes" there are not enough evidences for it and it can hardly be proven nor disproven

everest59
05-15-2015, 10:32 PM
We don't know if a Scythian connection exists without actual Scythian data. My gut instinct tells me that there will be a significant connection. If I model Jatts as a mixture of Yamnaya plus Starcevo plus East Eurasian, I end up with Yamnaya in the 40-50 range. Obviously, a better model would be a central asian scythian data, which I don't have.

Sapporo
05-15-2015, 10:35 PM
We don't know if a Scythian connection exists without actual Scythian data. My gut instinct tells me that there will be a significant connection. If I model Jatts as a mixture of Yamnaya plus Starcevo plus East Eurasian, I end up with Yamnaya in the 40-50 range. Obviously, a better model would be a central asian scythian data, which I don't have.

Completely agree. Once we have Scythian Adna, we can get an idea if any modern populations share any ancestry with them. At the moment, we have only the occasional Y-DNA or mt-DNA from Scythian graves/burial sites from what I recollect.

Coldmountains
05-15-2015, 10:42 PM
Sakastan became Sajistan became Seisan/Sistan. It is referred to as Sacastene in Greek sources. The modern theory is that it was the country of a people called the Sacae who occupied it after Alexander and prior to the Parthian period, as Greeks of Alexander's period do not mention it.

Another derivation would be the land of the Saka - teak - tree. Which would also translate to its equivalent Arabic form, and to the Indic Sakadvipa - the land of the Saka tree.

https://books.google.com/books?id=r29BAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA2&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U2GMC67DD7P1J6VUeK4-4VwHbforA&ci=291%2C323%2C640%2C84&edge=0

There were indeed many Sakas/Scythians who settled in South Afghanistan and several "Indo-Scythian" kingdoms were established there so that the earlier names Arachosia and Drangiana were partially replaced with Sakastan/Sistan. This can be hardly a confidence and South Afghanistan was one of the important centers of Indo-Scythians.

parasar
05-15-2015, 10:52 PM
There were indeed many Sakas/Scythians who settled in South Afghanistan and several "Indo-Scythian" kingdoms were established there so that the earlier names Arachosia and Drangiana were partially replaced with Sakastan/Sistan. This can be hardly a confidence and South Afghanistan was one of the important centers of Indo-Scythians.

I don’t disagee. But then the Saka belt ran through the heart of India too - exactly were Jats are present with Sistan at one end and Khotan at the other.

Coldmountains
05-15-2015, 11:02 PM
We don't know if a Scythian connection exists without actual Scythian data. My gut instinct tells me that there will be a significant connection. If I model Jatts as a mixture of Yamnaya plus Starcevo plus East Eurasian, I end up with Yamnaya in the 40-50 range. Obviously, a better model would be a central asian scythian data, which I don't have.

Hope they will publish Scythian aDNA soon. I have the feeling that Scythians will cluster between Pamiri and Volga Finno-Ugrians but with additional amounts of ANE. But Saka/Scythians in South Central Asia were probably quite close to Pamiri. Mtdna results among Rostov Scythians showed similarities to Shugni in Tajikistan and to a lesser extent also to eastern Europeans.

everest59
05-15-2015, 11:10 PM
Hope they will publish Scythian aDNA soon. I have the feeling that Scythians will cluster between Pamiri/Northern Caucasians and Volga Finno-Ugrians but with additional amounts of ANE. But Saka/Scythians in South Central Asia were probably quite close to Pamiri. Mtdna results among Rostov Scythians showed similarities to Shugni in Tajikistan and to to eastern Europeans .

IMO ANE or MA-1 is so old that it may be better to just ignore it. It is a 20k yr old sample.Haak for example took EHG as "pure" samples.

everest59
05-15-2015, 11:13 PM
Completely agree. Once we have Scythian Adna, we can get an idea if any modern populations share any ancestry with them. At the moment, we have only the occasional Y-DNA or mt-DNA from Scythian graves/burial sites from what I recollect.

The figure I gave above was based on your data. The problem is qpadm relies on allele frequency. So for example I would get a better estimate for HGDP Pathans as we are dealing with a population.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-15-2015, 11:21 PM
Except of the unusual amounts of WHG and" North European" admixture among Jatts there is hardly a connection between modern Jatts and Scythians. There are also other ways to explain their more "northern" DNA. They could also just represent a originally very small local population which better preserved early Indo-Aryan ancestry because of (social) isolation and their far northwestern location. I am not an expert about Jatts and my knowledge about them is very limited but claims about a Scythian orgin are created for almost every ethic group or tribe in Asia. We don't know what happened with Scythians in India and how numerous was the Scythian population there. Maybe they left almost no genetic traces like later Mughals or they indeed belong to the ancestors of some Indians. Jatts are linguistically fully Indo-Aryan and I have not heard anything about East Iranian influences in languages spoken by them. Culturally their traditions can be different interpreted but they lack traditions which have a confirmed East Iranic origin and could not develop locally. All this didn't disprove that they have Scythian ancestors but except of the "northern genes" there are not enough evidences for it and it can hardly be proven nor disproven

Its not only the jatt population scoring high Euro or WHG mixtures, but other tribes like khatris and kamboj show similar mixture too, also even I score high east euro or volga uralic component in most of calculators along with sapporo. Which makes me think if there was some invasion or mixture that only happened in this region, giving the extra Euro or WHG components we see in this part of south asia.

Coldmountains
05-15-2015, 11:33 PM
Its not only the jatt population scoring high Euro or WHG mixtures, but other tribes like khatris and kamboj show similar mixture too, also even I score high east euro or volga uralic component in most of calculators along with sapporo. Which makes me think if there was some invasion or mixture that only happened in this region, giving the extra Euro or WHG components we see in this part of south asia.

Either this is really the result of a later Scythian/East Iranic contribution to the genpool of some South Asians or some castes/tribes in NW India could better preserve archaic Indo-Aryan admixture than other South Asians (if we assume that archaic Indo-Aryans were rich in WHG and east Euro ). Maybe both is true to some extent and because of better preservation of archaic Indo-Aryan admixture and some Saka admixture some South Asians can score so high in east Euro. It is probably no coincidence that NW South Asians are so extremely rich in R1a.

tamilgangster
05-16-2015, 12:05 AM
Except of the unusual amounts of WHG and" North European" admixture among Jatts there is hardly a connection between modern Jatts and Scythians. There are also other ways to explain their more "northern" DNA. They could also just represent a originally very small local population which better preserved early Indo-Aryan ancestry because of (social) isolation and their far northwestern location. I am not an expert about Jatts and my knowledge about them is very limited but claims about a Scythian orgin are created for almost every ethic group or tribe in Asia. We don't know what happened with Scythians in India and how numerous was the Scythian population there. Maybe they left almost no genetic traces like later Mughals or they indeed belong to the ancestors of some Indians. Jatts are linguistically fully Indo-Aryan and I have not heard anything about East Iranian influences in languages spoken by them. Culturally their traditions can be different interpreted but they lack traditions which have a confirmed East Iranic origin and could not develop locally. All this didn't disprove that they have Scythian ancestors but except of the "northern genes" there are not enough evidences for it and it can hardly be proven nor disproven

They have even higher northern euro than brahmins or even pashtuns, or iranians, but they are a fairly low caste traditionally. Its hard to determine if they are scythian descended or not though. Other possibilities are they could be just foreign nomads who settled in India, or possibly slaves imported from central asia, again this is just speculation. Gurjars, also have similar lineage and are sudras, even below jatts and considered denotified tribes and are applying for scheduled tribe status

Sapporo
05-16-2015, 12:06 AM
Either this is really the result of a later Scythian/East Iranic contribution to the genpool of some South Asians or some castes/tribes in NW India could better preserve archaic Indo-Aryan admixture than other South Asians (if we assume that archaic Indo-Aryans were rich in WHG and east Euro ). Maybe both is true to some extent and because of better preservation of archaic Indo-Aryan admixture and some Saka admixture some South Asians can score so high in east Euro. It is probably no coincidence that NW South Asians are so extremely rich in R1a.

The thing is from my brief knowledge on Jatts and other tribes like Tarkhans, they are latercomers to South Asia and are historically outside the 4 varna caste system in a simplistic sense. I have some doubts they have preserved Indo-Aryan lineage the way Brahmins throughout South Asia. Especially, those in the NW, North, West and East (Nepal, West Bengal) have. I could be completely wrong though and it may be Indo-Aryan rather than Indo-Scythian lineage.

Sapporo
05-16-2015, 12:09 AM
Its not only the jatt population scoring high Euro or WHG mixtures, but other tribes like khatris and kamboj show similar mixture too, also even I score high east euro or volga uralic component in most of calculators along with sapporo. Which makes me think if there was some invasion or mixture that only happened in this region, giving the extra Euro or WHG components we see in this part of south asia.

There aren't any Kamboj samples on Harappa or other admixture runs as far as I know. Perhaps, 1 on HAP? Khatris (vs. Jatts) tend to show slightly less NE Euro and more Caucasus/Caucasian based on the limited samples I have seen. Otherwise, they are fairly similar. After Jatts, Punjabi Khatris show as my second closest population on my oracle.

tamilgangster
05-16-2015, 12:14 AM
There aren't any Kamboj samples on Harappa or other admixture runs as far as I know. Perhaps, 1 on HAP? Khatris (vs. Jatts) tend to show slightly less NE Euro and more Caucasus/Caucasian based on the limited samples I have seen. Otherwise, they are fairly similar. After Jatts, Punjabi Khatris show as my second closest population on my oracle.

Kamboj are more of an archaic population, there are no modern day kamboj people AFAIK

MonkeyDLuffy
05-16-2015, 12:40 AM
Kamboj are more of an archaic population, there are no modern day kamboj people AFAIK

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamboj


The Kambojs (Hindi: कम्बोज Kamboj, Urdu: کمبوہ‎ ALA-LC: Kamboh, Punjabi: ਕੰਬੋਜ Kamboj), also Kamboh, is a community mainly in the Northern India and eastern Pakistan. Kamboj is frequently used as a surname in lieu of the sub-caste or the Gotra name by the Hindu Kambojs of India. Their Muslim counterparts living in Pakistan mostly use the last name Kamboh instead of the gotra name. A good many Muslim Kamboh are also found in the Doab region of Uttar Pradesh, especially in the town of Marehra, and call themselves Zuberis.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-16-2015, 12:57 AM
Removed.

Dr_McNinja
05-16-2015, 02:22 AM
Completely agree. Once we have Scythian Adna, we can get an idea if any modern populations share any ancestry with them. At the moment, we have only the occasional Y-DNA or mt-DNA from Scythian graves/burial sites from what I recollect.

I'm not sure they're of Scythian origin tbh. I'm expecting a population from modern day Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan/Tajikstan/Western China. The reason being the high Siberian/Amerindian/NE-Asian admixture. Unless it turns out Scythians had that.

pegasus
05-16-2015, 03:00 AM
The East branch of Scythians were a mixed up lot by the time they even entered Afghanistan, as they had already mixed with East Eurasian populations in the Altai. Though I think for groups living around the Steppe and Caucasus like the Alans and Sarmatians, would more or less resemble the Ossetians of today as the live in the same region.

What exactly are Kambojs in contemporary South Asia, I vaguely do remember it being mentioned in some books?? I know this group is actually mentioned in historical texts as Kambojas.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-16-2015, 04:12 AM
What exactly are Kambojs in contemporary South Asia, I vaguely do remember it being mentioned in some books?? I know this group is actually mentioned in historical texts as Kambojas.

They're an interesting group which actual claimed to be of Iranian origin.

Looks like they have preserved old traditions like weapon worshipping to this day, which is kind of fading with time, but does points toward warrior background. So far I only have two kambojs in my connections and they seem to have similar results as jatts but more middle eastern on 23&me.

They are also found in Nuristan, known as Kom people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kom_people_(Afghanistan)

parasar
05-16-2015, 04:39 AM
I'm not sure they're of Scythian origin tbh. I'm expecting a population from modern day Kazakhstan/Kyrgyzstan/Tajikstan/Western China. The reason being the high Siberian/Amerindian/NE-Asian admixture. Unless it turns out Scythians had that.

There was a tribe called the Sse (or Sek), who had come from the south of China. These Sse/Sai-wang have usually been identified with the Sakas and Saka Murunda that entered India. Initially at least, they may have not been an Indo-European speaking people.
"So/Se/Sek/Saka Parental tribe of the Ancient Türks"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumandins

Murunda https://books.google.com/books?id=udnBkQhzHH4C&pg=PA52


In the time of Funanese king Fan
Chan (c.225 to 250 CE) there was a diplomatic
mission from Funan to China and to the court of
Murunda ruler in India. The Murundas were ruling
over the Kalinga and Magadha regions of India.31
The History of the Liang Dynasty mentions that
Meou-loun was the title of the king of the
Murundas and the envoy who came from Funan
to India was Su-Wu. Su-Wu coming by sea
arrived at the port of Tamralipti and met the
Murunda king. The Murundas became prominent
in Kalinga in the second and third centuries CE.

http://odisha.gov.in/e-magazine/Orissareview/2011/Nov/engpdf/32-38.pdf

The Sai-Wang Saka-Murunda from another vantage look more like Mundas than Black Sea Scythians.
That the Murunda is a Sanskritization of Munda is also possible as Munda and Wang have the same meaning. In fact Vishnu Puran uses the form Munda and not Murunda.

So if indeed the Saka Murunda were from the south of China, perhaps a slightly elevated NE/SE Asian component would be more indicative of Saka influence than an elevated European component.

Coldmountains
05-16-2015, 06:31 AM
They're an interesting group which actual claimed to be of Iranian origin.

Looks like they have preserved old traditions like weapon worshipping to this day, which is kind of fading with time, but does points toward warrior background. So far I only have two kambojs in my connections and they seem to have similar results as jatts but more middle eastern on 23&me.

They are also found in Nuristan, known as Kom people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kom_people_(Afghanistan)
The ancient Kamboja were a equestrian tribe, who had a mixed east Iranian and Indo-Aryan origin. Some places in eastern Tajikistan seem to carry similar or related names and ancient Kamboja lived in Tajikistan, eastern Afghanistan and NW India so I have the feeling that they are in some way also related to old Pashtuns. Many Kamboja migrated to India and were used as mercenaries so modern Kamboj are not unlikely the descendant of Kamboja who were indianized. Kamboja were also called Asvaka and the term Afghan is derived from Asvaka most likely. They seem to be a Indo-Iranian frontier tribe. The eastern Kamboja were gradually indianized and probably belong to the ancestors of Kamboja, the more western Kamboja better preserved their Iranic character and probably belong to the Ancestors of Pashtuns and Tajiks/Pamiri.


"The etymology of the word Kamboja (Kam + bhuj) suggests that it refers to a people who were the masters (enjoyers) of the country known as Kum or Kam (Rai & Dev). This line of thought suggests a possible identification of the country of Kambojas with mountainous regions between the Oxus and the Jaxartes (i.e. the old Sogdian strapy). [...] The mountainous highlands where Jaxartes and many other rivers which meet this great river arise, are called by Ptolemy as "the Highlands of Komdei". Ammianus Marcellinus also call these Sogdian mountains as Komedas. The word Komedai and Komedas suggest Kom-desa or land of Kome. We learn from Ptolemy that a tribe variously called by him as Komaroi, Komedai, Khomaroi, Komoi and Tambyzoi was wide spread in the Highlands of Bactriana, Sogdiana and Sakai. It is difficult to say, at present, how far the vast tracts of land on either side of Oxus called as Kyzyl Kum or Kizil Kum, Kok-kum and Kara Kum may yet bear the traces of the name of this once a great and powerful people- (HC Seth in Central Asiatic Provinces of the Maurya Empire in Indian Historical Quarterly, XIII (1937), No. 3, p. 403)"


Numerous scholars now locate the Kamboja realm on the southern side of the Hindu Kush ranges (in the Kabul, Swat, and Kunar valleys) and the Parama-Kambojas in the territories on the north side of the Hindu Kush. See: Geographical and Economic Studies in the Mahābhārata: Upāyana Parva, 1945, p 11-13, Moti Chandra - India; Geographical Data in the Early Purāṇas: A Critical Study, 1972, p 165/66, M. R. Singh

pegasus
05-16-2015, 06:33 AM
They're an interesting group which actual claimed to be of Iranian origin.

Looks like they have preserved old traditions like weapon worshipping to this day, which is kind of fading with time, but does points toward warrior background. So far I only have two kambojs in my connections and they seem to have similar results as jatts but more middle eastern on 23&me.

They are also found in Nuristan, known as Kom people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kom_people_(Afghanistan)

Nuristanis are related to Kalash. They are the Afghan version of the Kalash, but most have lost their culture post conversion in 1895, that region also saw a lot of brutal violence in recent times.
I have a Nuristani friend , I will ask him about Kom.
They are distinct from Iranian and Indo Aryan groups.

kenji.aryan
05-16-2015, 10:22 AM
Its not only the jatt population scoring high Euro or WHG mixtures, but other tribes like khatris and kamboj show similar mixture too, also even I score high east euro or volga uralic component in most of calculators along with sapporo. Which makes me think if there was some invasion or mixture that only happened in this region, giving the extra Euro or WHG components we see in this part of south asia.


There is no kamboj on Harrapa but there is one on mcninja spreadsheet but he is half kamboj and half arora with 12.68% caucasian and 8.51% NE euro.

Khatri don't score high NE euro like jatts there average is 10% but they do score high on caucasian 15%.

Punjabi jatt sikhs on harrapa score 12% NE euro and 10% Caucasian.
Rajasthani jatts score 15% NE euro and 11% Caucasian.
Haryana jatts score 17% NE euro and 9% caucasian.

Nepali Brahmins score 13% NE euro.
UP Brahmin & Rajasthan Brahmin score 12% NE euro.



Kambojas are very interesting people and they do look different from other punjabis from what i have seen, they were mentioned in Mahabharat too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas

speedyran
05-16-2015, 10:45 AM
They have even higher northern euro than brahmins or even pashtuns, or iranians, but they are a fairly low caste traditionally. Its hard to determine if they are scythian descended or not though. Other possibilities are they could be just foreign nomads who settled in India, or possibly slaves imported from central asia, again this is just speculation. Gurjars, also have similar lineage and are sudras, even below jatts and considered denotified tribes and are applying for scheduled tribe status

If you go to a village with some of your high caste friends and tell the Jatts there they are low caste, they will piss themselves with laughter. Same with Gujjars they will laugh at you. Reason Gujjars might be applying for scheduled tribe status is that under reservation policy they are not allocated hardly any jobs.

surbakhunWeesste
05-16-2015, 10:52 AM
If you go to a village with some of your high caste friends and tell the Jatts there they are low caste, they will piss themselves with laughter. Same with Gujjars they will laugh at you.

Interestings! Kandahar in recent years had some transplant Gujjars and they are considered Qawwals.

tamilgangster
05-16-2015, 11:30 AM
If you go to a village with some of your high caste friends and tell the Jatts there they are low caste, they will piss themselves with laughter. Same with Gujjars they will laugh at you. Reason Gujjars might be applying for scheduled tribe status is that under reservation policy they are not allocated hardly any jobs.

Caste isn't about how they percieve themselves its about how others percieve them

speedyran
05-16-2015, 11:37 AM
Caste isn't about how they percieve themselves its about how others percieve them

Your'e right. In our area your high castes are considered very low caste.

Sapporo
05-16-2015, 07:22 PM
There is no kamboj on Harrapa but there is one on mcninja spreadsheet but he is half kamboj and half arora with 12.68% caucasian and 8.51% NE euro.

Khatri don't score high NE euro like jatts there average is 10% but they do score high on caucasian 15%.

Punjabi jatt sikhs on harrapa score 12% NE euro and 10% Caucasian.
Rajasthani jatts score 15% NE euro and 11% Caucasian.
Haryana jatts score 17% NE euro and 9% caucasian.

Nepali Brahmins score 13% NE euro.
UP Brahmin & Rajasthan Brahmin score 12% NE euro.



Kambojas are very interesting people and they do look different from other punjabis from what i have seen, they were mentioned in Mahabharat too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kambojas




Interesting but you're comparing 15 Sikh Jatt samples to 2 Rajasthani Jatts and 6-7 Haryanvi Jatts. There is a fair amount of individual variation and as Dr_McNinja pointed out there are some Sikh Jatts score 15-17% NE Euro but they tend to be from Southeastern Indian Punjab. There are also individual Sikh Jatts scoring lower Baloch (36-37%) and higher Caucasian (14-16%) It also goes back to his points about endogamy and how admixture (Baloch, Caucasian, NE Euro and Siberian/Beringian/Amerindian) is being picked up differently between each group. Also, interesting to note that the Haryanvi/Rajasthani Jatts tend to score around 26-27% South Indian on HAP's official run while Sikh Jatts closer to 28-29% (ignoring the fact that HRP0240 and older are on slightly different run) despite a more Northwestern origin. Just goes to show how volatile the South Indian component is because the Haryanvi Jatts don't really score less ASE or East Eurasian components on West Eurasia K8 or ANE K7.

parasar
05-16-2015, 09:08 PM
Completely agree. Once we have Scythian Adna, we can get an idea if any modern populations share any ancestry with them. At the moment, we have only the occasional Y-DNA or mt-DNA from Scythian graves/burial sites from what I recollect.

Shared ancestry is certain. To establish Scythian derived ancestry in Jats and others we will need some ancient DNA data from points in South Asia. It is my feeling that even then it will be difficult to establish direction with autosomal DNA. But who knows - ancient DNA has surprised.

Coldmountains
05-16-2015, 09:38 PM
Shared ancestry is certain. To establish Scythian derived ancestry in Jats and others we will need some ancient DNA data from points in South Asia. It is my feeling that even then it will be difficult to establish direction with autosomal DNA. But who knows - ancient DNA has surprised.

Which kind of R1a subclades Jatts carry? Mostly L657 like other Indo-Aryans or R1a lineages more prevalent among Iranics or Turks (Z2124,..)? Do they have some amounts of y-DNA Q or other exotic lineages which could have a Siberian/Scythian origin also?

Sapporo
05-16-2015, 09:52 PM
Which kind of R1a subclades Jatts carry? Mostly L657 like other Indo-Aryans or R1a lineages more prevalent among Iranics or Turks (Z2124,..)? Do they have some amounts of y-DNA Q or other exotic lineages which could have a Siberian/Scythian origin also?

No academic study on Jatts in particular but Dr_McNinja collected quite a few haplogroup results on his spreadsheet for Jatts via 23andMe.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

One of the Haryanvi Jatts (Malik) who I share with 23andMe and on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet is Q1a* (Q1a2). He scores 17% NE Euro on HAP. There is also a Dogra Rajput who is Q1*. From all the Jatts I share with on 23andMe and on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet, dominant Y-DNA haplogroups are R1a1a and L1c-M357 including myself. Both of these are some of the more common haplogroups among Pashtuns. Some Durrani tribes in particular for L1c-M357.

Also, I don't know the subclades predominant among Jatts but likely L657 imo.

jesus
05-16-2015, 10:41 PM
No academic study on Jatts in particular but Dr_McNinja collected quite a few haplogroup results on his spreadsheet for Jatts via 23andMe.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

One of the Haryanvi Jatts (Malik) who I share with 23andMe and on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet is Q1a* (Q1a2). He scores 17% NE Euro on HAP. There is also a Dogra Rajput who is Q1*. From all the Jatts I share with on 23andMe and on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet, dominant Y-DNA haplogroups are R1a1a and L1c-M357 including myself. Both of these are some of the more common haplogroups among Pashtuns. Some Durrani tribes in particular for L1c-M357.

I don't think L1c-M357 is that " common " in certain Pashtun tribes like Poplazais, since Zahra tested a lot of her relatives and L1c-M357 was not found as far as I remember. She's a Sadozai/Popalzai from Kandahar.

L is more common in northern Afghanistan, rather than the southern part where Durranis make the majority of the population.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz89CIayDIqZQndhYXRmS3duTVU/edit

Also, I've noticed in FTDNA that a big number of people get their cousins and relative tested and they usually have the exact Last name and common ancestor. This happens a lot in FTDNA, that's why calculating the frequency of certain Haplogroups in FTDNA can be tricky and inaccurate. Randomly selected Large samples are the best way to tell about the frequency of certain haplogroups in large Tribes/Clans/ethnicities.

parasar
05-16-2015, 10:49 PM
Which kind of R1a subclades Jatts carry? Mostly L657 like other Indo-Aryans or R1a lineages more prevalent among Iranics or Turks (Z2124,..)? Do they have some amounts of y-DNA Q or other exotic lineages which could have a Siberian/Scythian origin also?

Z2124 or Q by itself are not sufficient to show a Scythian connection. We will need higher resolution.
For example there is Q in the Maldives - hardly a Scythian haunt.
Four Q samples in this dataset:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajpa.22256/asset/supinfo/ajpa22256-sup-0010-suppinfo6.xlsx?v=1&931292c1
Z2124/Z2125 is also pan South Asian https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1bHppNkxXcEF6SlE/edit?pli=1 I don't have enough STRs from the Maldives to figure out whether their type is Z2124 or L657 but I expect it to be like Lanka with a slight skew towards L657. L657 definitely dominates in the Indo-Gangetic plains.

surbakhunWeesste
05-16-2015, 11:00 PM
I don't think L1c-M357 is that " common " in certain Pashtun tribes like Poplazais, since Zahra tested a lot of her relatives and L1c-M357 was not found as far as I remember. She's a Sadozai/Popalzai from Kandahar.

L is more common in northern Afghanistan, rather than the southern part where Durranis make the majority of the population.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz89CIayDIqZQndhYXRmS3duTVU/edit

Also, I've noticed in FTDNA that a big number of people get their cousins and relative tested and they usually have the exact Last name and common ancestor. This happens a lot in FTDNA, that's why calculating the frequency of certain Haplogroups in FTDNA can be tricky and inaccurate. Randomly selected Large samples are the best way to tell about the frequency of certain haplogroups in large Tribes/Clans/ethnicities.

I know of 1 Achakzai(Durrani) with L1c who is from Kabul. I haven't seen L1c being common amongst Southern Durranis or Ghilzis.

Southern and western Afghanistan is pretty much Durranis followed by Ghilzis, Wardakis, Tajiks(Herat,Farah)...... Eastern and northern Afghanistan is a different story, its much diverse and has very less Durranis except for Kabul where one can find Tajikified Popalzais( who may or may not be related to Durrani Popals from Southern Afghanistan).
Btw. one has to ask about their lineage. I found Hindu Indians with last name Durrani and Durrani Popal! I am not sure why they use it and if they are related to Afghan Durranis.

"Rameshwar Nath Koul Bamezai "
"Pawan Durrani Popal"

Now that's interesting.

Sapporo
05-16-2015, 11:23 PM
I don't think L1c-M357 is that " common " in certain Pashtun tribes like Poplazais, since Zahra tested a lot of her relatives and L1c-M357 was not found as far as I remember. She's a Sadozai/Popalzai from Kandahar.

L is more common in northern Afghanistan, rather than the southern part where Durranis make the majority of the population.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz89CIayDIqZQndhYXRmS3duTVU/edit

Also, I've noticed in FTDNA that a big number of people get their cousins and relative tested and they usually have the exact Last name and common ancestor. This happens a lot in FTDNA, that's why calculating the frequency of certain Haplogroups in FTDNA can be tricky and inaccurate. Randomly selected Large samples are the best way to tell about the frequency of certain haplogroups in large Tribes/Clans/ethnicities.


Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet has a fair few Durranis who are L1c_M357 or L's who may be L1c-M357. My guess is that it is likely a founder effect within certain tribes as it seems to be for Jatts on 23andMe from so many diverse clans (tribes). I don't mean "common" like 20%+ but something around 10% would not surprise me.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

kenji.aryan
05-17-2015, 04:35 AM
No academic study on Jatts in particular but Dr_McNinja collected quite a few haplogroup results on his spreadsheet for Jatts via 23andMe.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit#gid=0

One of the Haryanvi Jatts (Malik) who I share with 23andMe and on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet is Q1a* (Q1a2).

Is Malik guy identifies himself as Jat?

Malik is also found in khatri's (Malik is a surname used by the Punjabi Khukhrain (Khatri) and Arora communities living in Punjab or Delhi in India- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_clan_(Punjab))

Many Rajput families and clans received the title of Malik from the Mughal Kings after they converted to Islam from Hinduism or Sikhism. The title is given for large amount of ownership of land(landlords). Implying it's alternative meaning of "Chieftain".


The Malik (Kashmiri: मालिक (Devanagari), ملک (Nastaleeq)) is a clan of Rajputs, found in principally in the Darhal Valley of Jammu & Kashmir, India and over the Pir Panjal mountains in Poonch (both Indian & Pakistani administered), Jammu and few are also found in the Kotli and Mirpur Districts of Azad Kashmir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_clan_(Kashmir)


Other groups with Malik as surname.

Gorrcha, Awan Malik is a large community in Pakistan with Arab heritage.

Some Maliks (Urdu: ملک) are also a clan of Hindu Jatt, Muslim Jatt and a few Sikh Jatt, found primarily in Haryana and Pakistan and parts of Punjab (There also exist Hindu Punjabi Maliks that are part of the Khukhrain or Arora communities but they are entirely different from jats). The Muslim Malik Jat community is settled all over Pakistan and the Sikh, mainly in the Punjab province. The Malik are also known as the Ghatwala. They are descended from Mann Jats. The Gathwala are now designating themselves as Maliks, which is a title.

Sapporo
05-17-2015, 06:38 AM
Is Malik guy identifies himself as Jat?


I have very close 'Malik" family friend from Haryana but they said they come from Pakistan during partition and don't identify with jats.

Malik is also found in khatri's (Malik is a surname used by the Punjabi Khukhrain (Khatri) and Arora communities living in Punjab or Delhi in India- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_clan_(Punjab))

Many Rajput families and clans received the title of Malik from the Mughal Kings after they converted to Islam from Hinduism or Sikhism. The title is given for large amount of ownership of land(landlords). Implying it's alternative meaning of "Chieftain".


The Malik (Kashmiri: मालिक (Devanagari), ملک (Nastaleeq)) is a clan of Rajputs, found in principally in the Darhal Valley of Jammu & Kashmir, India and over the Pir Panjal mountains in Poonch (both Indian & Pakistani administered), Jammu and few are also found in the Kotli and Mirpur Districts of Azad Kashmir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_clan_(Kashmir)


Other groups with Malik as surname.

Gorrcha, Awan Malik is a large community in Pakistan with Arab heritage.

Some Maliks (Urdu: ملک) are also a clan of Hindu Jatt, Muslim Jatt and a few Sikh Jatt, found primarily in Haryana and Pakistan and parts of Punjab (There also exist Hindu Punjabi Maliks that are part of the Khukhrain or Arora communities but they are entirely different from jats). The Muslim Malik Jat community is settled all over Pakistan and the Sikh, mainly in the Punjab province. The Malik are also known as the Ghatwala. They are descended from Mann Jats. The Gathwala are now designating themselves as Maliks, which is a title.

He is a Haryanvi Jat. Not all Maliks are Jat/Jatt but he is and all of his other paternal/maternal surnames are Jatt.

Coldmountains
05-17-2015, 06:43 AM
Z2124 or Q by itself are not sufficient to show a Scythian connection. We will need higher resolution.
For example there is Q in the Maldives - hardly a Scythian haunt.
Four Q samples in this dataset:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajpa.22256/asset/supinfo/ajpa22256-sup-0010-suppinfo6.xlsx?v=1&931292c1
Z2124/Z2125 is also pan South Asian https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1bHppNkxXcEF6SlE/edit?pli=1 I don't have enough STRs from the Maldives to figure out whether their type is Z2124 or L657 but I expect it to be like Lanka with a slight skew towards L657. L657 definitely dominates in the Indo-Gangetic plains.
If they are just L657 than a Scythian connection looks unlikely because even among nearby Pashtuns Z2124 is dominating and their R1a lineages are in some way different from South Asians, so if they are direct descendants of Scythians their R1a lineages should be in some way different from other South Asians and closer to Pashtuns, Kyryz, Tatars or Tajiks. But it seems for me that they are quite similar to other NW South Asians in terms of Y-DNA. Haplogroup Q was found beside of R1a among Siberian Scythians and probably represents a local Siberian lineage which was absorbed by Scythians. But I don't remember which subclades they found. But who knows which Haplogroups and subclades Southern Scythians carried in reality.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-17-2015, 11:35 AM
Is Malik guy identifies himself as Jat?


I have very close 'Malik" family friend from Haryana but they said they come from Pakistan during partition and don't identify with jats.

Malik is also found in khatri's (Malik is a surname used by the Punjabi Khukhrain (Khatri) and Arora communities living in Punjab or Delhi in India- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_clan_(Punjab))

Many Rajput families and clans received the title of Malik from the Mughal Kings after they converted to Islam from Hinduism or Sikhism. The title is given for large amount of ownership of land(landlords). Implying it's alternative meaning of "Chieftain".


The Malik (Kashmiri: मालिक (Devanagari), ملک (Nastaleeq)) is a clan of Rajputs, found in principally in the Darhal Valley of Jammu & Kashmir, India and over the Pir Panjal mountains in Poonch (both Indian & Pakistani administered), Jammu and few are also found in the Kotli and Mirpur Districts of Azad Kashmir. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_clan_(Kashmir)


Other groups with Malik as surname.

Gorrcha, Awan Malik is a large community in Pakistan with Arab heritage.

Some Maliks (Urdu: ملک) are also a clan of Hindu Jatt, Muslim Jatt and a few Sikh Jatt, found primarily in Haryana and Pakistan and parts of Punjab (There also exist Hindu Punjabi Maliks that are part of the Khukhrain or Arora communities but they are entirely different from jats). The Muslim Malik Jat community is settled all over Pakistan and the Sikh, mainly in the Punjab province. The Malik are also known as the Ghatwala. They are descended from Mann Jats. The Gathwala are now designating themselves as Maliks, which is a title.

My friend used to date a malik girl, who was a haryanvi jat.

BMG
05-17-2015, 02:34 PM
Z2124 or Q by itself are not sufficient to show a Scythian connection. We will need higher resolution.
For example there is Q in the Maldives - hardly a Scythian haunt.
Four Q samples in this dataset:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/ajpa.22256/asset/supinfo/ajpa22256-sup-0010-suppinfo6.xlsx?v=1&931292c1
Z2124/Z2125 is also pan South Asian https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1bHppNkxXcEF6SlE/edit?pli=1 I don't have enough STRs from the Maldives to figure out whether their type is Z2124 or L657 but I expect it to be like Lanka with a slight skew towards L657. L657 definitely dominates in the Indo-Gangetic plains.

Q1a3 or Q-M346 is not likely of Scythian origin and probably older than R1a . But Q1a-M25 probably is or even later with some turco-mongols .

parasar
05-17-2015, 03:04 PM
Q1a3 or Q-M346 is not likely of Scythian origin and probably older than R1a . But Q1a-M25 probably is or even later with some turco-mongols .
M25 was formed 23900 ybp and the L712(xL715) branch seen in South Asia split 16900 ybp.

The four Maldves' samples are MEH2+
MEH2 rs4252209
M25 was not typed.

IMO anything to do with Turko-Mongols should show R1-M73 and C2-M217 (cf. the Hazara).

parasar
05-17-2015, 03:16 PM
If they are just L657 than a Scythian connection looks unlikely because even among nearby Pashtuns Z2124 is dominating and their R1a lineages are in some way different from South Asians, so if they are direct descendants of Scythians their R1a lineages should be in some way different from other South Asians and closer to Pashtuns, Kyryz, Tatars or Tajiks. But it seems for me that they are quite similar to other NW South Asians in terms of Y-DNA. Haplogroup Q was found beside of R1a among Siberian Scythians and probably represents a local Siberian lineage which was absorbed by Scythians. But I don't remember which subclades they found. But who knows which Haplogroups and subclades Southern Scythians carried in reality.

I did not say they are just L657. But I do expect them to be predominantly L657. As you can see three PJL (no idea if they are Jats) samples in the figure (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1bHppNkxXcEF6SlE/edit?pli=1) I posted are Z2124+Z2125+. The Z2124 branch is as much as 25% of Z93 in Lanka.

Underhill's dataset has this distribution where you can compare L657/M780 vs. Z2124/Z2125. In northern India L657 dominates but in the southern portions the proportions are about equal.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg

BMG
05-17-2015, 03:58 PM
M25 was formed 23900 ybp and the L712 branch seen in South Asia split 16900 ybp.

The four Maldves' samples are MEH2+
MEH2 rs4252209
M25 was not typed.

IMO anything to do with Turko-Mongols should show R1-M73 and C2-M217 (cf. the Hazara).

That's just one sample .We don't have any from central Asia or Iran .So we can't say anything about L712 branch . There is some M25 among turkomans in Iran and also among Turkish people too. So probably those people could have carried it to south Asia .
Reg Maldives did they test those sample for M346 or L54 .

parasar
05-17-2015, 04:20 PM
That's just one sample .We don't have any from central Asia or Iran .So we can't say anything about L712 branch . There is some M25 among turkomans in Iran and also among Turkish people too. So probably those people could have carried it to south Asia .
Reg Maldives did they test those sample for M346 or L54 .

I agree we have to see how that works with more samples but the fact that full genomes tests on the L712 branch are coming out L715+ tells me there was an early split.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2664-Q-M25-has-117-valid-private-SNPs-according-to-YFull&highlight=l712

Re: Maldives - Nothing below MEH2 was tested.

In the Arunkumar's Tamil data-set it was interesting that Q was absent among the Brahmans, the group one would think of a carrier if these came from the north recently.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/annotation/8663819b-5ff0-4133-b70a-2d686dfb0a44.t002.cn

Dr_McNinja
05-17-2015, 05:03 PM
I don't think L1c-M357 is that " common " in certain Pashtun tribes like Poplazais, since Zahra tested a lot of her relatives and L1c-M357 was not found as far as I remember. She's a Sadozai/Popalzai from Kandahar.

L is more common in northern Afghanistan, rather than the southern part where Durranis make the majority of the population.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz8...RmS3duTVU/edit

Also, I've noticed in FTDNA that a big number of people get their cousins and relative tested and they usually have the exact Last name and common ancestor. This happens a lot in FTDNA, that's why calculating the frequency of certain Haplogroups in FTDNA can be tricky and inaccurate. Randomly selected Large samples are the best way to tell about the frequency of certain haplogroups in large Tribes/Clans/ethnicities.
I know of 1 Achakzai(Durrani) with L1c who is from Kabul. I haven't seen L1c being common amongst Southern Durranis or Ghilzis.

Southern and western Afghanistan is pretty much Durranis followed by Ghilzis, Wardakis, Tajiks(Herat,Farah)...... Eastern and northern Afghanistan is a different story, its much diverse and has very less Durranis except for Kabul where one can find Tajikified Popalzais( who may or may not be related to Durrani Popals from Southern Afghanistan).
Btw. one has to ask about their lineage. I found Hindu Indians with last name Durrani and Durrani Popal! I am not sure why they use it and if they are related to Afghan Durranis.

"Rameshwar Nath Koul Bamezai "
"Pawan Durrani Popal"

Now that's interesting.Since Ahmad Shah's reign there's a ton of Punjabi and even some Indian Durranis now. Especially in Multan. There's a lot of books on the subject on Google Books that are available to read online which mention some of the people in the Durrani government who settled there.

I think there was a founder effect during the Durrani empire. But the Popalzai kits at FTDNA are varied, not just in their background/location, but also their Y-STR markers. They're definitely not all from the same family. There are different branches of Sadozai and Popalzai in the L haplogroup project (Wazirzada, Bahadur-Khel). Even a Mohammadzai. There are 5 Sadozais of which 4 are from genetically distinct lines (TMRCA beyond Durrani empire probably).

There's also Alizai, Khattak, Tareen, and Khogyani L1c individuals as well as two Pakistan Pashtuns of unidentified tribal affiliation with L1c in the spreadsheet.

The Durrani/Popalzai L1c all appear to be close in STR markers though. HRP0370's direct paternal line is Bamezai and their L1c is slightly different but shows a coalescence timeframe with Sadozai L1c of something like 1000 years I think (I posted it in the L1c thread a while ago). Their closest match in FTDNA includes another Bamezai who claims descent from "Abbas Quli Khan, son of Shah Wali Khan Bamezai". HRP0370's paternal line is also from Shah Wali Khan Bamezai. They're identical in the few markers they have tested except one at DYS385 which I suspect might've been a recent mutation.

Edit: L tree:


L formed 4200ybp, TMRCA 16500ybp
|__L1c-M357 formed 16500ybp, TMRCA 7400ybp
|__L-M2398 formed 7400ybp, TMRCA 6900ybp (South Asia)
|__L-Y6249 formed 7400ybp, TMRCA 3300ybp
|__L-Y6249* formed 3300ybp (Arabs)
|__L-Y6247 formed 3300ybp, TMRCA 950ybp (Chechnya)
There's a strong founder effect among Chechens as well going back to 950ybp, but as always we need more samples and more people being tested.

FWIW, there's a crowdfunding initiative to test Afghan and Punjabi L1c in the Crowdfunding forum (link in my sig).

parasar
05-17-2015, 05:13 PM
There is an interesting combination among the Mokhshi:
http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/136/156

In conclusion we may summarize that among the Tatar descendants of the Golden Horde Mokhshi ulus there currently reside the genetic lines referring to J2b2, Q1b and L haplogroups.

The first haplogroup is connected with descendants of Bekhan (Bekhanids cluster) and descendants of his relatives (the second cluster inside J2b2a1a1).

The second haplogroup Q1b is connected with the descendants of Butak and the offspring of his relatives.

The third haplogroup L is connected with the descendants of Knyaz Efay.

The stated haplogroups appeared due to existence of the Golden Horde state.

jesus
05-17-2015, 10:10 PM
There is an interesting combination among the Mokhshi:
http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/136/156

Those Tatars are L1b1*

The Efaev person is under: 29 L-M317 (ISOGG L1b1* FTDNA L2) not clustered

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-Haplogroup-L/default.aspx?section=yresults

kenji.aryan
05-18-2015, 04:33 AM
One of the Haryanvi Jatts (Malik) who I share with 23andMe and on Dr_McNinja's spreadsheet is Q1a* (Q1a2). He scores 17% NE Euro on HAP. There is also a Dogra Rajput who is Q1*..


There is also a Kashmiri pandit who is Q1a*.

tamilgangster
05-18-2015, 10:03 AM
I did not say they are just L657. But I do expect them to be predominantly L657. As you can see three PJL (no idea if they are Jats) samples in the figure (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-b3KeGG3Un1bHppNkxXcEF6SlE/edit?pli=1) I posted are Z2124+Z2125+. The Z2124 branch is as much as 25% of Z93 in Lanka.

Underhill's dataset has this distribution where you can compare L657/M780 vs. Z2124/Z2125. In northern India L657 dominates but in the southern portions the proportions are about equal.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v23/n1/images/ejhg201450f3.jpg

Wow nepalis have a the highest distrobution of Z93 of any south asian group, so I doubt that it is scythian relted. This is more of a pahari marker than anything

MonkeyDLuffy
05-18-2015, 10:32 AM
Wow nepalis have a the highest distrobution of Z93 of any south asian group, so I doubt that it is scythian relted. This is more of a pahari marker than anything

Note that Nepali brahmins (guessing the samples are from them) score high euro components. So I doubt its Pahari origin.

kenji.aryan
05-18-2015, 10:58 AM
Note that Nepali brahmins (guessing the samples are from them) score high euro components. So I doubt its Pahari origin.

It can be related to indo-gangetic plains as UP brahmins also score high NE Euro.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-18-2015, 10:59 AM
It can be related to indo-gangetic plains as UP brahmins also score high NE Euro.

That was my point, that just be because its peaking there doesnt mean it has pahari orgin.

kenji.aryan
05-18-2015, 11:11 AM
That was my point, that just be because its peaking there doesnt mean it has pahari orgin.

I can't say where it originate but from the map it peaks in UP-Nepal border and in eastern nepal.

parasar
05-18-2015, 05:47 PM
Wow nepalis have a the highest distrobution of Z93 of any south asian group, so I doubt that it is scythian relted. This is more of a pahari marker than anything

The Nepal Hindu with high 68% Z93 (mainly L657 64% with likely 4% Y40) samples are from the Tharu paper incorporated into Underhill et al.
"173 Tharus (two groups from Central and one from Eastern Terai), and 104 Indians (Hindus from Terai and New Delhi and tribals from Andhra Pradesh) ... The Indian sample also was composed of three groups: Hindus from Terai (H-Te, collected in the Chitwan district), Hindus from New Delhi (H-ND) and tribals from Andhra Pradesh (T-AP)."
Fornarino S, Pala M, Battaglia V et al: Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the Tharus (Nepal): a reservoir of genetic variation. Bmc Evolutionary Biology 2009
Chitwan:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/154
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1471-2148-9-154-1.jpg

The Indians/Hindus from Chitwan Terai will be almost exactly the same as the folk across the border in Champaran. The sample set is from a location that falls in modern Nepal but should not be considered pahari. https://books.google.com/books?id=OPEcHLvf33YC&pg=PA16

everest59
05-18-2015, 07:35 PM
The Nepal Hindu with high 68% Z93 (mainly L657 64% with likely 4% Y40) samples are from the Tharu paper incorporated into Underhill et al.
"173 Tharus (two groups from Central and one from Eastern Terai), and 104 Indians (Hindus from Terai and New Delhi and tribals from Andhra Pradesh) ... The Indian sample also was composed of three groups: Hindus from Terai (H-Te, collected in the Chitwan district), Hindus from New Delhi (H-ND) and tribals from Andhra Pradesh (T-AP)."
Fornarino S, Pala M, Battaglia V et al: Mitochondrial and Y-chromosome diversity of the Tharus (Nepal): a reservoir of genetic variation. Bmc Evolutionary Biology 2009
Chitwan:
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2148/9/154
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1471-2148-9-154-1.jpg

The Indians/Hindus from Chitwan Terai will be almost exactly the same as the folk across the border in Champaran. The sample set is from a location that falls in modern Nepal but should not be considered pahari. https://books.google.com/books?id=OPEcHLvf33YC&pg=PA16

Chitwan is actually dominated by Hill Brahmins or Pahari Brahmins. That is the biggest population in Chitwan. See the pdf file below. The other dominant ethnicities are Tharus and Gurungs. Did the samples belong only to the Madhesi community?

http://un.org.np/maps/chitwan-district-distribution-caste-and-ethnic-groups

parasar
05-18-2015, 07:47 PM
Chitwan is actually dominated by Hill Brahmins or Pahari Brahmins. That is the biggest population in Chitwan. See the pdf file below. The other dominant ethnicities are Tharus and Gurungs. Did the samples belong only to the Madhesi community?

http://un.org.np/maps/chitwan-district-distribution-caste-and-ethnic-groups

Yes as they are designated Indians - Hindus from Terai.
"104 Indians ... composed of three groups: Hindus from Terai (H-Te, collected in the Chitwan district), Hindus from New Delhi (H-ND) and tribals from Andhra Pradesh (T-AP)."

everest59
05-18-2015, 08:04 PM
It could be that they are lumping all non-tharu Hindus as Indian. The way R1a is dominating seems to imply some sort of Brahmin or uppercaste Hindu. The demographics seems to imply Hill Brahmin samples.

parasar
05-18-2015, 08:22 PM
It could be that they are lumping all non-tharu Hindus as Indian. The way R1a is dominating seems to imply some sort of Brahmin or uppercaste Hindu. The demographics seems to imply Hill Brahmin samples.

I doubt it, as the objective was to compare/contrast the Tharus with Indians.

BalkanKiwi
05-18-2015, 10:01 PM
Slightly off topic from the conversation you guys are having but I find this interesting. Maybe not scientifically accepted in general though.

"Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock."

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Dr_McNinja
05-18-2015, 10:28 PM
Slightly off topic from the conversation you guys are having but I find this interesting. Maybe not scientifically accepted in general though.

"Whatever the details of the original home of the Iranoid race itself, all scholars agree that the Jats, Serbs and Croats predominantly belong to the same ethnic stock."

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Definitely not scientifically accepted.

speedyran
07-25-2015, 12:02 PM
I think Monkeydluffy have relatives who married to jatts and i think males but i can be wrong.

I googled "Dahiya" surname and there is no mention of it as a european surname except maybe in legendary "Jat land " forum. I did check some jatt surnames which is found exclusively in Punjabi jatts like Bains, Gill etc and no wonder those surnmaes are common in people from UK so maybe some tribes does adopted them the same way you find Lucky, Happy, sandy etc as common first names or nick names in Punjab and the only surname i found interesting is "Mann".

Surnames like Bains, Gill and others are very old names and nothing to do with English or UK. No tribe has adopted these names. These names exist both amongst Punjabi Muslim and Sikh Jats. You seriously believe both Muslims and Sikhs got together and agreed to use these names?

Most of these names have a different pronunciation in Punjabi to how the English names are pronounced. They have to be written the same when using the English alphabet.

Happy, sandy etc are not "common" but just used as mainly nicknames by some people. Some such nicknames are used more in UK, as Punjabi names are difficult to pronounce for British or European people. This is understandable as people settled abroad have to live and interact with the locals.




And like i said i can't say about what my friend told be about Haryana jats were truth or he said it because of inter-caste rivalry.

I also told you i don't buy Scythian/goth/jutes origin theories but i do believe that all the indians irrespective of their caste and who also happened to share same Y haplogroup have common ancestor at some point depends on what branch of that haplogroup they fall in.



and what you think about this article :




http://in.rbth.com/articles/2012/06/06/europeans_and_indians_divided_or_united_by_dna_159 23.html

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/kerala/ezhavas-has-got-a-paternal-lineage-of-european-origin-study/article2473292.ece

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118723/


http://s3.postimg.org/4tyx349tf/ss_001.jpg

http://s10.postimg.org/w0dspbyex/Croat_Med_J_52_0344_F1.jpg



see what I wrote (red).

speedyran
07-25-2015, 12:38 PM
I didn't deny scythian. greeks, kushans etc connection with india or pakistan or some parts of Afghanistan but i don't buy that they choosed to mix entirely with jats which you are trying to prove second i'm not from ganges so what happened there is none of my business.

Pen and sword are both important imo .



scythian. greeks, kushans etc were later invaders. They would have mixed much less with Brahmins, since Brahmins were the promoters of the caste system, and therefore would naturally mix less with outsiders coming in as Brahmins considered them "Mleccha" barbarians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mleccha

Over the course of time however some admixture of scythian. greeks, kushans etc would have transferred from others into Brahmins as well.

khanabadoshi
07-25-2015, 03:04 PM
A lot of stuff people knowingly/unknowingly quote is from Jatland and particularly based on the works of one James Tod who was obsessed with Jatts. Essentially he, and Jatland, believe everything is a Jatt or derived from a Jatt and that they are the original people of the Ukraine region. You should check out the Jatland website: see the migration maps and what not.

This is my basic understanding of the history; whether or not this is borne out by genetics or more recent studies, I don't know. This is particular to the region that is now Pakistan.

Sindhis are tribal, not in the sense of shared relation, but instead by place/town. This is not surprising, as Sindhis are the probably the most native people to lands of modern Pakistan. Thus, they are more appropriately described as being clans. Being aboriginal to the region and not apart of the Vedic resettlement from the Indus Valley area to the Gangetic plains -- where Vedic culture evolved into systemic stratification and Hinduism -- the majority of Sindhis were not assigned a caste. This is why even Hindu Sindhis today exist for the most part outside of the standard Vedic caste system. As such, the pre-modern Hindus of the Ashoka era described them (and most of the people in the IV area) as disgraced Hindus. The Arab invasions further disintegrated what little semblance of caste there was, while significant Baluch settlement in the 15th century gave rise to the Sindhi-Baluch tribes (40% of Sindh) and the feudal system as it exists today. This leads us a native people of Sindh who existed outside BOTH Hindu/Buddhist and Islamic influence until the 11-13th century -- the Jatt.

The Jatt are natives of Lower Sindh who were pastoral nomads and totally oblivious to the prevailing cultures; from the dawn of Vedic culture until the Arab rule of Sindh. With the Arab invasion, the many Jatts moved north to lower Punjab and began farming. Until this migration none of Punjab was farmed. Essentially, all un-casted natives Hindu or otherwise were called Zutts/Jatts by the Arabs. By the time the Ghazvanids/Ghouris attack the Qarmati Ismaili rulers of Multan (the main reason of his advance into the region), the Jatt had spread to all of Punjab, and east to the areas where they are now found. They began assimilating to the religion and language of the places they settled and integrated. By this time, they had perfected farming of the fertile lands and were the premier, if not only, agriculturists of the region. Hence, the modern association of Jatt = Farmer. Those that adapted Hinduism found great difficulty in being assigned a caste. Initially, they were considered Untouchable and by the 11th century considered Vaishya or Shudras. In the 17th century they lobbied for Kshatriya status, but were opposed by the Rajputs. Hence, it is not surprising that many Hindu Jatts swelled the ranks of Sikhism, which offered them social status that was not allowed under the Brahmani traditions. As such, Jatts (of all regions/religions) found themselves organized into tribe-like clans -- initially based on vicinity which, overtime, emerged into eventual blood-ties and relations. I'm fairly certain Jatts are of Sindh/Gujurat-origin, that Jatts of ANY region will cluster with Sindhis; the recent testing of L657, Y7 and its peak in Sindh seems to corroborate this in my eyes. The majority of Southern Punjab is Jatt and this is evidenced by the language of the region being Saraiki -- a language on the spectrum between Sindhi and Punjabi. It is said, if Punjabi and Multani(Saraiki) are cousins, then Multani and Sindhi are sisters. Historically, the people who spoke this language called it Hindi or Hindki (1910 Indian Gazetteer indicated this) and others called it Jatki, Jaghdali. So when it comes to how the first Arabs saw Jatt status, they didn't do so under the lens of the Varna system -- the Jatts they encountered were out of that realm -- they were considered dhimmi just like all other non-Muslims would be under their rule. They joined the Arab armies precisely because with military service there is no Jizya tax; nothing at all to do with any Vedic status, everything to do with status under Muslim rule. The fact of the matter is, most of the people where the Arabs directly ruled, were NOT strongly apart of the prevailing Hindu or Buddhist society of the time, in any shape or form.

Rajput is a caste falling under Kshatriyas. Their origin is uncertain, but historical evidence leads to the probable suggestion that they are predominantly "Jatts" or other natives of Sindh area, who may or may not have mixed with early Seva Huna invaders and/or Gurjars/ and/or and/or no one at all; after the Gupta empire fell (6th century AD). But they most certainly came into the fold of Hinduism much much much earlier than later Jatts. Some Hindu traditions (I can't recall the name of the book) mention that the post-Gupta era Kshatriyas began exerting dominance over the Brahmins (due to their elevated positions from wartime and subsequent peace time) and that the Brahmins, fearing a power shift, called a grand meeting of all Bharatvarsha Brahmin's to the region of Rajputana under the a mountain (whose name I can't recall either) where they deliberated and decided to initiate the existing people of the area as the new Kshatriyas, under the name of Rajput.

Essentially, Jatts, Rajputs, Gujjars, Dogris, Ahirs and similar groups are somehow related, whether casted or not. Gujars/Dogars and all variations of their names confuse people because are wide spread from Gujurat to Kashmir and many cities/towns/villages bear the names and they even have languages named after them (Gojri, Gujari, Gujurati, Dogri). I believe that they and all the others mentioned are the same group initially, but assimilated in different peoples.

Punjabis are perhaps the most complex in this regard as it comprises a large array of people from varying backgrounds. The Punjabi identity itself is youngest in the region, more so than the 15th century arrival of the Baluch, emerging in the 18th century. (ie. no one called themselves "Punjabi" until then) The people of Punjab mainly consists of: Ahirs, Arains, Dalits (mostly Chamars), Gujjars, Jatts, Khatris, Tarkhans, Maliks, Brahmins and Rajputs. The overwhelming majority being low-caste or Dalit muslim converts.

Punjabi society is trifold, consisting of: Biradaris, Moeens, and Qoums.

Uncasted peoples (irrespective if they were of Hindu/Buddhist or local/foreign origin) coalesced to form Biradaris -- or tribes from a common ancestor. Artisian occupational converts retained their caste designations based on occupation and are called Moeens, ie. Lohar, Khateek, Rawal, Chhimba Darzi, Teli, Julaha, Mallaah, Mirasi. The Qoums/Zamindaris are of the upper echelons and own land. They generally consist of Rajputs, Shaikhs, Gujjars, Gakhars, Dogars and Rahmani (Muslim Labana converts).

Within the Qoums is the oft-heard Chaudhary (literally meaning the "holder of four") -- a title given by the Mughals and/or the British Raj during Imperial rule to those families who owned (or were awarded) large tracts of land as vassals for the Empire. Malik is a title in the same vein but doesn't imply nor deny zamindari status; it only affirms membership in the aristocracy. The names are not indicative of ethnicity or caste (it is common in Bangladesh, Nepal, India, Pakistan), however, due to the implication of wealth, the title is akin to being of a high caste. Thus, most Ch. do not know or neglect to mention their actual clan/tribal name prior to receiving the title. It is a fair to assume that most are Kalar Panwar, Rajputs, Jatts, Dhobi, Ahirs, Maheshri Bania, Gadaria, Gujar, Halwa and Mali in origin.

The Shaikhs (including [I]Siddiquis, Qureshis, Khawajas, Awan, Arain), commonly claim Arab descent and membership of Banu Hashim or other tribes. However, DNA and historical evidence is quite convincing that almost all, if not all, are 12th century (During Ghouri incursion or Ghaznavid) Khatri or Brahmin (native to the region) converts to Islam. The majority being Khatri. The prevailing thought being that in order to retain status they had as Khatris in Vedic society they took names of similar status in Islamic society; some people think that infact, the Arabs themselves denoted the names to these groups, to maintain the existing hierarchy and to honor their status of being highborn in Hindu society. This makes sense from a purely political standpoint, as the majority of converts were uneducated and of artistan or dalit classes; the Arabs needed an incentive for the more educated peoples to conform -- allowing them to keep their status by virtue of these titles seems appropriate. Those who use the surname of Shaikh exclusively are more likely to be of Brahmin origin. Of course there are exception to all of this.

The Syeds, claim descent from the Prophet Muhammad. ie. Gilani, Jaffari, Naqvi, Rizvi, Mousavi, Hashimi, Hussaini, Hassani, Shareef. All groups claim to arrive with the Ghaznavid invasion. While, it is not easy to prove direct relation through DNA testing (as the lineage follows males until Ali and then uses Fatima to connect to the Prophet), you can rule out those who do not have a male lineage originated in the Arab/Bedouin or Irani Haplogroup of J, and I believe specifically J1; and thus, are not of Near East descent at all from their male lineage. Using this methodology (Tested on Muslims of India): Sunni (Syeds/Shaikhs/Regular) showed 1-2% Arab lineage. Shi'a (Syeds/Alivis/Regular) showed 2-5%. Dawoodi Bohra Ismailis showed 10-15% maternal Yemeni decent (giving credence to the Yemeni origin). Irani Shias (settled in South Asia the past 100-200 years) showed 40-45% Near East lineage (indicative of Irani origin not Arab). While this is not a full sample of every Muslim or Syed in the region, it gives strong evidence that the majority of Muslims claiming ANY Arab decent (Syed, Shaikh or otherwise) are most likely mistaken. To further cement the point, almost all Western Chinese Muslims tested showed clear paternal Arab decent (50-65%) -- A people with whom no one in the subcontinent associates with Arab lineage are in fact undeniably of Arab decent. [I might have fuddled the numbers, I going of memory; the ratio is whats important though!]

Of course the remainder of Punjab has Baluch (Arrive in Baluchistan proper by 11th century from Sistan/Kerman; 80-90% cross Indus River into Punjab in 15th century with Mir Chakar Khan dramatically changing Punjab and Sindh demographics and geneflow), Pashtoon (Continuous inflow from 11th century Ghaznavid invasion onwards) , and Kashmiri (Muslims converting in 13th-14th century) settlers who are of tribes and castes respectively.


This of course is mostly a "recent" historical perspective limited to Pakistan, while most of you are arguing in terms of more ancient terms and of India as a whole. The DNA studies I read maybe outdated; I read them quite a long time ago and I am not nearly as perceptive in these matters as many of you... however, the abstracts and conclusions are written in pretty plain English and are rather unambiguous. So, at least from my perspective and understanding: all these different types of Jatts, Dogars, Gujars etc are recent divisions; and all of them were native to Sindh or Gujurat area. (The people who have L657, Y7 and the place where it peaks make it seem so.... then again, I'm uneducated in these matters).

I am probably totally wrong and I'm sure many of you will own me with a series of studies proving otherwise LOL... can't wait!

parasar
07-25-2015, 03:44 PM
...
Sindhis are tribal, not in the sense of shared relation, but instead by place/town. This is not surprising, as Sindhis are the probably the most native people to lands of modern Pakistan. Thus, they are more appropriately described as being clans. Being aboriginal to the region and not apart of the Vedic resettlement from the Indus Valley area to the Gangetic plains -- where Vedic culture evolved into systemic stratification and Hinduism -- the majority of Sindhis were not assigned a caste. This is why even Hindu Sindhis today exist for the most part outside of the standard Vedic caste system. As such, the pre-modern Hindus of the Ashoka era described them (and most of the people in the IV area) as disgraced Hindus. The Arab invasions further disintegrated what little semblance of caste there was, while significant Baluch settlement in the 15th century gave rise to the Sindhi-Baluch tribes (40% of Sindh) and the feudal system as it exists today. This leads us a native people of Sindh who existed outside BOTH Hindu/Buddhist and Islamic influence until the 11-13th century -- the Jatt.

The Jatt are natives of Lower Sindh who were pastoral nomads and totally oblivious to the prevailing cultures; from the dawn of Vedic culture until the Arab rule of Sindh. With the Arab invasion, the many Jatts moved north to lower Punjab and began farming. Until this migration none of Punjab was farmed. Essentially, all un-casted natives Hindu or otherwise were called Zutts/Jatts by the Arabs. By the time the Ghazvanids/Ghouris attack the Qarmati Ismaili rulers of Multan (the main reason of his advance into the region), the Jatt had spread to all of Punjab, and east to the areas where they are now found. They began assimilating to the religion and language of the places they settled and integrated. By this time, they had perfected farming of the fertile lands and were the premier, if not only, agriculturists of the region. Hence, the modern association of Jatt = Farmer. Those that adapted Hinduism found great difficulty in being assigned a caste. Initially, they were considered Untouchable and by the 11th century considered Vaishya or Shudras. In the 17th century they lobbied for Kshatriya status, but were opposed by the Rajputs. Hence, it is not surprising that many Hindu Jatts swelled the ranks of Sikhism, which offered them social status that was not allowed under the Brahmani traditions. As such, Jatts (of all regions/religions) found themselves organized into tribe-like clans -- initially based on vicinity which, overtime, emerged into eventual blood-ties and relations. I'm fairly certain Jatts are of Sindh/Gujurat-origin, that Jatts of ANY region will cluster with Sindhis; the recent testing of L657, Y7 and its peak in Sindh seems to corroborate this in my eyes. The majority of Southern Punjab is Jatt and this is evidenced by the language of the region being Saraiki -- a language on the spectrum between Sindhi and Punjabi. It is said, if Punjabi and Multani(Saraiki) are cousins, then Multani and Sindhi are sisters. Historically, the people who spoke this language called it Hindi or Hindki (1910 Indian Gazetteer indicated this) and others called it Jatki, Jaghdali. So when it comes to how the first Arabs saw Jatt status, they didn't do so under the lens of the Varna system -- the Jatts they encountered were out of that realm -- they were considered dhimmi just like all other non-Muslims would be under their rule. They joined the Arab armies precisely because with military service there is no Jizya tax; nothing at all to do with any Vedic status, everything to do with status under Muslim rule. The fact of the matter is, most of the people where the Arabs directly ruled, were NOT strongly apart of the prevailing Hindu or Buddhist society of the time, in any shape or form.

...

This of course is mostly a "recent" historical perspective limited to Pakistan, while most of you are arguing in terms of more ancient terms and of India as a whole. The DNA studies I read maybe outdated; I read them quite a long time ago and I am not nearly as perceptive in these matters as many of you... however, the abstracts and conclusions are written in pretty plain English and are rather unambiguous. So, at least from my perspective and understanding: all these different types of Jatts, Dogars, Gujars etc are recent divisions; and all of them were native to Sindh or Gujurat area. (The people who have L657, Y7 and the place where it peaks make it seem so.... then again, I'm uneducated in these matters).

...

In the lower Indus region R1a1 peaks in the Mohana/Mohano (fishermen class).
The Sindh region has consistently come up with ~50% R1a1.
Sengupta et al., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/
Qamar et al., HG3 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/table/TB2/
Firasat: "The highest frequency of R1a1* was observed in the Mohanna (71.4%) [of Sindh] and lowest in the Parsi (7.8%). Other populations with appreciable (>50%) frequency of R1a1* included the Kashmiri (58.3%), Punjabi caste (56.7%), and Sindhi (51.4%)." http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Thesis/1026S.pdf

khanabadoshi
07-25-2015, 04:44 PM
In the lower Indus region R1a1 peaks in the Mohana/Mohano (fishermen class).
The Sindh region has consistently come up with ~50% R1a1.
Sengupta et al., http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/
Qamar et al., HG3 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC447589/table/TB2/
Firasat: "The highest frequency of R1a1* was observed in the Mohanna (71.4%) [of Sindh] and lowest in the Parsi (7.8%). Other populations with appreciable (>50%) frequency of R1a1* included the Kashmiri (58.3%), Punjabi caste (56.7%), and Sindhi (51.4%)." http://prr.hec.gov.pk/Thesis/1026S.pdf

So If I am understanding this correctly; it corroborates my understanding of historical population movements from South to North?

parasar
07-25-2015, 05:41 PM
So If I am understanding this correctly; it corroborates my understanding of historical population movements from South to North?

Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that the Arab invasion caused a massive displacement from Sindh northward. The Jats moved north and east. The Gurjar migrations can be tracked by names in the modern Punjab, Kashmir, and Uttar Pradesh. Most Indic written material is lost but the legends that Tod recorded are spot on, it is just his analysis that was sometimes lacking. The Dravidian chiefs of northern Karnataka became powerful in the same time-frame as they were responsible for handing the Syrian army one its biggest defeats (at Nausari). We still see pockets of Dravidian power all over northern India in the Brahui, Rathore, Solanki, Kalachuri, etc. They were to remain powerful until the Ghaznavid period* when many "Kannaras" joined the Ghaznavid armies. https://books.google.com/books?id=lfUH7Qnm1VkC&pg=PA257

That is one of reason I do not see the Brahui as very old exponents of Dravidian presence in the region but a relatively recent one. The closest relatives of Brahui - Malto, Kurukh, Oraon are seen in Bihar where too there was a influx of numerous Kannara clans. The other is that these languages show only middle Indic and Persian influences and not old Indic, old Persian ones.

*Edit:
I would clarify that while the Turks displaced the Kannaras from much of the Indo-Gangetic region, the Kannara still maintained power in the peripheries - eg. in Nepal the Kannara chiefs survived until very late and their connected later Malls as late as 1769AD. https://books.google.com/books?id=uy4YAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA167
Pockets of Kannara chiefs had survived as Bhuiyas in the modern Bangladesh/Assam region until the Mughal period.

khanabadoshi
07-25-2015, 06:09 PM
That is one of reason I do not see the Brahui as very old exponents of Dravidian presence in the region but a relatively recent one. The closest relatives of Brahui - Malto, Kurukh, Oraon are seen in Bihar where too there was a influx of numerous Kannara clans. The other is that these languages show only middle Indic and Persian influences and not old Indic, old Persian ones.

The Brahui have always referred to themselves as "foreigners" and never claim to be native to the region. I don't understand why so many people think that they are from the initial Dravidian population of the area. If they were that old they would surely have been mentioned by Arabs, Persians, anyone who passed by and noted that they spoke a language different to those around them. Alexander's incursion produced many detailed descriptions of the people inhabiting the area. They considered Aria to be Kandahar to the Indus River and everything down to the coast. They called it "white India" and noted Parthian influence still. They said all the people spoke the same language and called it the "language of the Aryans". They also noticed the Med people and called them "fish-eaters". They considered India to start after the Indus River. So with this detailed description of the people and area, and distinguishing Gedrosia/Bactria/Archosia etc as different from India; one would think they would note a people who speak an Indian language in Gedrosia!

It makes so much sense that Arab-Dravidian battles are responsible for the arrival of these populations. Multan was first laid siege to around ~640 (can't remember date) but it was the reign of Umar. They "converted 10,000 and brought them back to Khurasan and looted much wealth". They asked if they should take dominion over the city and invade further, to which Umar asked for a description of the land (Balochistan/Sindh). The messenger answered something to effect of, "it is a desolate land, the people are fierce and do not submit, to take it you will need an army of 10s of thousands, and in taking it you will lose those thouands, and have gained nothing -- and the land to the east is worse!". Then Umar replied, "are you a messenger or a poet?" He replied he was a messenger and Umar said then do not take the land. From this point on, every Caliph was asked whether or not to invade, and each Caliph resisted -- they feared losing many troops. Many small incursions happened but not until 750 was a full-scale invasion attempted. It was extensively planned and prepared for....in fact, many people believe it was the most extensively planned invasion until then -- more so than Persian, Byzantine, and Iberian invasions. The Arabs didn't underestimate the Dravid or Sindhi natives.

hemant yadav
08-21-2018, 05:27 AM
paul gill dont talk like shit understood. yadavs of haryana are dominating over jatts both physically and look wise. jatts of haryana are jealous of ahir/yadavs because yadavs in haryana treat them like shits.

and second thing, results of r1a1a haplogroup frequency by population results are published on wikipedia and there is no mention of jatts in that. ahirs have 67% frequency of eurasian DNA. you are the native bastard descendents of the indian jaat mother and british father which had sex with british just for some money and land.

land revenue records of punjab clearly state that jatts have obtained a good social status after the 17th century. before that you were classified under shudra varna of hindu caste system. so dont brag about your dna every indian knows the truth that jats celebrated selling their daughters to british and mughals. haryanvi jats fear from haryanvi yadavs because they do not let them even to stand in front of them. yadavs dont allow jatts to sit with them because we consider you as the lower caste.

where ahirs are of original eurasian stock which have conserved their dna over decades. results of the r1a haplogroup frequency by population datas are published on wikipedia and their is no jatt name included in that so dont claim yourself as r2a stock and eurasian List of R1a frequency by population - Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_...

according to these results only khatri and ahir/yadavs are of eurasian origin and most good looking among the indians.

dont talk like shit provide proofs if you claim something. i have provided the link and ahirs have the most dominating dnaList of R1a frequency by population - Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_...

surbakhunWeesste
08-21-2018, 05:48 AM
paul gill dont talk like shit understood. yadavs of haryana are dominating over jatts both physically and look wise. jatts of haryana are jealous of ahir/yadavs because yadavs in haryana treat them like shits.

and second thing, results of r1a1a haplogroup frequency by population results are published on wikipedia and there is no mention of jatts in that. ahirs have 67% frequency of eurasian DNA. you are the native bastard descendents of the indian jaat mother and british father which had sex with british just for some money and land.

land revenue records of punjab clearly state that jatts have obtained a good social status after the 17th century. before that you were classified under shudra varna of hindu caste system. so dont brag about your dna every indian knows the truth that jats celebrated selling their daughters to british and mughals. haryanvi jats fear from haryanvi yadavs because they do not let them even to stand in front of them. yadavs dont allow jatts to sit with them because we consider you as the lower caste.

where ahirs are of original eurasian stock which have conserved their dna over decades. results of the r1a haplogroup frequency by population datas are published on wikipedia and their is no jatt name included in that so dont claim yourself as r2a stock and eurasian List of R1a frequency by population - Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_...

according to these results only khatri and ahir/yadavs are of eurasian origin and most good looking among the indians.

dont talk like shit provide proofs if you claim something. i have provided the link and ahirs have the most dominating dnaList of R1a frequency by population - Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › List_...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6Z2RhnqwI0