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BalkanKiwi
05-16-2015, 01:21 AM
Hi all,

I was curious as to if anyone on here has known Yakut ancestry or gets some on the 23andMe Ancestry Composition?

I get 0.1% Yakut in Speculative Mode which occurs on chromosome 6. I had a look at 6 on the chromosome browser for the K13 and do get some Siberian and East Asian throughout and near its location on 23andMe. At the start of the chromosome I get a bit of Siberian/East Asian overlap. My biggest (highest peak) chunk is actually on chromosome 15, from about 83cM-86cM.

I haven't seen many Yakut results from 23andMe. Are there many people that have more than, say, 10%? Interestingly on the K13 I get 0% Siberian but 0.53% East Asian. The only calculator I get any Siberian on is the MDLP World 22, 0.37%. North-Siberean. East Asian is more common for me in the calculators but all of it is under 1%. Considering how distant it is I shouldn't be surprised. I also get 0.98% Indo-Tibetan on the World 22, whether that's related to migration from the area or something completely different I'm not sure.

I don't think its noise as its probably related to my Eastern European ancestry or at the very least, my Croatian through Turkish migration into the Balkans.

Feel free to share your thoughts and findings :)

MonkeyDLuffy
05-16-2015, 01:25 AM
The only east asian population shows up in my graph is "Broadly east european", which is 0.1%

Kaido
05-16-2015, 01:59 AM
0.3% Yakut on chromosomes 2 and 6.

Kurd
05-16-2015, 02:42 AM
0.9% Yakut & 2.2% Chinese on Ch 2,3,5,10,11,19

Alanson
05-16-2015, 02:44 AM
It's probably from your distant Scando ancestry.Scandos do have some Siberian admix.

BalkanKiwi
05-16-2015, 02:59 AM
It's probably from your distant Scando ancestry.Scandos do have some Siberian admix.

This has crossed my mind. I get quite a few Finnish matches and it may be linked to that.

MonkeyDLuffy
05-16-2015, 04:24 AM
0.1 east asian on chromosome 12

tamilgangster
05-16-2015, 05:27 AM
Its probably an indicator of ancestry from a population like the saamis who have siberian affinities. ,

anglesqueville
05-16-2015, 07:32 AM
With 23 0.1% east-asian and native on chr5 (and 0.2% finnish on chr6 and chr15, with two dozens of finnish relatives "on" these segments. Many calculators seem to confirm the distant finnish ancestrality). Many calculators give me siberian or amerindian amounts far higher than the west-european averages, but the most often people tell me that's noise (or calculator effect, as recently with K10 Steppes, and yesterday with 4mix). Don't know what to think.

tamilgangster
05-16-2015, 08:06 AM
With 23 0.1% east-asian and native on chr5 (and 0.2% finnish on chr6 and chr15, with two dozens of finnish relatives "on" these segments. Many calculators seem to confirm the distant finnish ancestrality). Many calculators give me siberian or amerindian amounts far higher than the west-european averages, but the most often people tell me that's noise (or calculator effect, as recently with K10 Steppes, and yesterday with 4mix). Don't know what to think.

Another possibilty is that it noise from excesss ANE

anglesqueville
05-16-2015, 08:14 AM
I would be happy if someone could give a clear and scientific definition to the concept of "noise". All I've read til now about it is .... very noisy.

BalkanKiwi
05-16-2015, 08:19 AM
I would be happy if someone could give a clear and scientific definition to the concept of "noise". All I've read til now about it is .... very noisy.

Its classed as statistical noise, which is the unexplained variation or randomness in a set of data. For example, if I have 0.1% Yakut on 23andMe and then had no Siberian/East Asian at all on any calculator chromosome paintings, there is a good chance it isn't real and therefore "noise". This may be due to data being read incorrectly or it's being picked up from another population that shares similar segments.

Another example is my Scandinavian. I have no known Scandinavian ancestors on paper however I score 2% on 23andMe. If I had no Scandinavian reference I could compare to elsewhere, i.e. matches, Gedmatch etc, it may just be noise because people from the UK have similar DNA. Therefore it is more statistically significant.

anglesqueville
05-16-2015, 08:54 AM
jtmol4: I know vey well all this. What troubles me: how can one tell about statistical noise (and "randomness in a set of data"), as nobody never provides any dispersion indicators for the used alleles distributions? Did you ever read standard deviation of the gaussians used by the calculators? Furthermore, with so small samplings, how could any standard deviation computing make sense? But I agree about at least one point: chromosome painting is very useful. Hopefully you understand what I tell ( my english writing is so poor and awkward). I don't doubt about the reality of something like "noise". I just say that it is, perhaps inevitably, a fuzzy concept.

Helgenes50
05-16-2015, 08:56 AM
I would be happy if someone could give a clear and scientific definition to the concept of "noise". All I've read til now about it is .... very noisy.

If you want to know the Definition of Noise in Normandy, That's very easy.
All what is not Viking or Scandinavian is noise.

BalkanKiwi
05-16-2015, 09:01 AM
jtmol4: I know vey well all this. What troubles me: how can one tell about statistical noise (and "randomness in a set of data"), as nobody never provides any dispersion indicators for the used alleles distributions? Did you ever read standard deviation of the gaussians used by the calculators? Furthermore, with so small samplings, how could any standard deviation computing make sense? But I agree about at least one point: chromosome painting is very useful. Hopefully you understand what I tell ( my english writing is so poor and awkward). I don't doubt about the reality of something like "noise". I just say that it is, perhaps inevitably, a fuzzy concept.

I haven't seen a clear definition for noise when it comes to interpreting DNA results. That is my interpretation and whether or not that is correct can be debated. You or anyone else are more than welcome to correct me. If p-values were given for 23andMe and FTDNA data, Gedmatch calculators etc it would be easier to interpret a statistical result and make an informed decision about its legitimacy.

anglesqueville
05-16-2015, 09:14 AM
You or anyone else are more than welcome to correct me I'm far from being able to correct anyone, and I'm far from pretending I'm understanding. That's the point: I would like to understand.

All what is not Viking or Scandinavian is noise : haha! For many people in France, Scandinavian ancestry of normans is itself noise. We are very noisy my friend.

Stephen1986
05-16-2015, 11:02 AM
I don't show anything from outside of Europe in my AC (unless you count the <1.0% Unassigned), but my brother has 0.1% North African and <0.1% Broadly East Asian which seem to be connected to his 0.2% Iberian, 1.0% Broadly Southern European and 1.4% Broadly European. He also has 0.2% Unassigned.

Roaring
05-16-2015, 11:39 AM
0.1 Yakut is something many Euros do get on 23andme, i still have no answer why, but it does seem to be relatievly common, i do get this aswell, ofcourse being Russian gives me a propability of having Yakut, but i traced my ancestry to early 19th century and have no Siberian settlers down the line.

About noise for example West and East Slavs very often get minor % of Balkan in their AC, which is connected to Slavic migrations to that regions and not to direct ancesty from the region.

Jenny
05-17-2015, 08:53 AM
No Yakutian shows for me, and I'm half Finnish

walatt
10-01-2015, 06:21 PM
We just had ours done at 23andme - and read "less than 1%" Yakut.

Which is both strange and not surprising at the same time:
Strange in that it is so low and we have family member who (unlike me) looked quite Eurasian mixed - my Grandmother for example and her (Estonian- from a line that goes back at least 150 years in Tartu, Estonia) father, who was Estonian.
Not surprising in that We know we have Estonian and Finnish ancestry - especially Estonian - going back a long way - Eastern European makes up a significant portion of my mother's dna -and we have a large percent of genetic matches with groups in Finland, Estonia, and Russia, according to 23andme.
Small noses, high cheekbones, reduced upper bridge of the nose, and occasionally asiatic eye shapes occur in my family - especially in women for some reason (I have a small nose, like my grandmother, but she had a much more asiatic looking set of cheekbones and overall facial shape). My mother calls them "ski jump" noses. I have seen a LOT of European faces, and the majority seem to have normal to large sized noses - in our family it is almost universally notably smaller. No idea why. My Chinese girlfriend's family looked at a picture of my Grandmother and said that she looked "part Chinese". I think that's significant enough to raise some questions. And that is why I find it HIGHLY strange that the percentage is as tiny as it is.

Knowing we have Russian, Estonian, and Finnish dna, having East Asian Yakut dna (if you look up some pictures, you will see that these people, while linguistically and culturally Turkic, are genetically and physically very similar to Mongols and Chinese) is NOT surprising, as I said. It'd actually be strange if we didn't. Again though, I question how the percentage can be so small. Myself, I don't look at all mixed. But given the faces of my Grandmother and especially her brother and somewhat her father, again, questions must be raised.
I wonder if perhaps some higher siberian results might be lost in the rather large "widely northern european" (nearly 30%) or the "Eastern European" (roughly a quarter) categories (scandanavian by the way reads only 6%).
These results are including the autosomal dna of both of my mother's parents and her father had UK, German, and that Scandinavian descent - so if you don't include his side, her mother's side would be easily in t he majority eastern - Estonian and probably Russian considering they controlled Estonia for a long time.

I could get my (I'm male) dna read as well but I suspect having native on my father's side might skew those results- though I don't know. I read somewhere that native dna can sometimes be mistaken for asian as they are similar - but in my mother's case, there's virtually no way they'd have had any contact with any natives as they did not come to the US or leave Estonia until the later 20th century. We have birth records on the grandmother's father's side going back to around 1800 in Tartu, Estonia - so again no way that's native dna.

Has anyone else had the same experience, coming from an Eastern European family with some members who have vaguely asian features yet getting such a low percentage?
FYI, my mother's mitochondrial dna I think also suggest that the yakut dna came from her Estonian Grandfather's autosomal dna: the mitochondrial showed haplogroups H4a1, H7, and H13 (the former of which is apparently pretty low in frequency in Europe and occurs at its highest frequency in Poland where it makes up 5% of the population) - which originated in West Asia/ the "middle east" or central asia, but are not at all related to the haplogroups common to the yakut, from my understanding.
So is it possible that maybe her being a woman and not inheriting that Y-dna that my great uncle (my grandmother's brother) has? Her brother, for the record, has a very "mongol" look - darker skin, darker hair, looks like a descendant of genghis himself if ever there was one. So how in the HELL do we still read "99.9%" European? (I should also add that there is <1% which cannot be identified and another 15ish percent that is "widely European" in addition to the "eastern" and "widely northern".
In terms of paperwork - we can prove Estonian ancestry back 200 years at minimum on my mother's maternal side, and we don't have any scandanavian names in the family tree that we can see at all. One German one (Drodge - which has even a family crest and is known to have come from Germany), but again that's her paternal side, and no sign of any sort of Scandanavian going back at least 150-200 years, according to birth records and marriage certificates and family names. My mother also strangely got a F* haplogroup read which is VERY strange because I thought that was a Y-dna haplogroup -so how the hell could she get it? F* is evidently rarer than F and is little known - and found in several asian populations - but then, yesterday F* was removed from her page and she's writing customer service to inquire as to why it was even there in the first place being that she's a woman and my grandfather in no way looked asian. I am guessing they recategorized it - but we will see.

I'm just really confused by this, I guess. How can a 99.9% European family POSSIBLY have people who look Eurasian so much, including my sister when she was born (she passed away due to unknown causes at 2 months of age - but even my older sister - who now as an adult looks more like an Eastern European girl with light skin and hair- as a baby looked positively Mongolian/Chinese)?!?
In my research I have found that the majority of Finnish men and over 30% of Estonian men do indeed carry East Asian haplogroups in their dna - this is far higher than, say, Western Europeans in which it is far more rare. So I don't think this Yakut reading is "noise", given our family. What I think is the "noise" is actually the part that says we have genetic matches in Russia.

I suppose that it could just be that it gets watered down FAST: 1 generation ago you had just your parents (2 ancestors) but that number increases by a factor of 2 every generation back you go: grandparent's generation you have 4 grandparents and 2 parents = 6 ancestors contributing to your gene pool. One more generation, and each of those 4 grandparents has a set of parents, adding an additional 8, and so forth. By just 4 or 5 generations back you can find 32, 64, 128 etc ancestors very quickly (and if only 1 in 32 or 1 in 64 ancestors is Yakut or half yakut, then already by only 4 generations back - not that long ago - your yakut ancestor contributes less than 1% of your dna. But again...why in the seven hells does my grandmother and her brother and father look eurasian and I only have her small nose trait and no cheekbones, no eye shape (they're squinty, but more on the outside rather than the inner eyelid like my Chinese girlfriend), etc?

So confused. I'd like to have some final answer which explains the features - and I do not think >0.1% Yakut accounts for as recent a generation as my grandmother and my sister having asiatic features. So, I'm looking to have us analyzed for some admixture, and I hope I can contact my Grandmother's brother to get tested for his Y-dna - but even then, if it is in his Y-dna, why would his sister have eurasian features too?

On a final note, as far removed as it apparently is, maybe the genes are just THAT dominant? I look at some photos of Yakut women and my mother and i both see some features - particularly in more mixed looking Yakuts - that are very similar to my Grandmother (she just didn't have the epicanthal folds - but certaily the face shape and reduced nose bridge and non-existant brow bones like east asians). Could someone who is less than 1% something still inherit visually apparent traits from that heritage? I'm really beginning to think that 23andme and other services are very Europe-centric in terms of their database and so don't have much of a database for minorities - including specific east asian groups - to break them down and distinguish them from "eastern europeans" who may share some genetic heritage. I remember ancestry.com a while ago giving people unrealistically, absurdly high percentages of scandanavian dna (over 60% for people who had no families from there for centuries) and getting flack for it - so I suspect some nomadic siberian groups in the russian population - and maybe the Sami, who live in Finland and Sweden as a minority ethnic group and DO carry some East-Asian haplogroups - are lumped in there as "broadly northern" or "eastern european" groups, despite having enough members with eurasian features and genes as to raise questions regarding their origin and whether they are even European at all.
It seems almost ALL of those who have primarily European ancestry read as either 99.9 or 100% or close to it - which just doesn't make sense if you understand at all just how much people migrated and mixed throughout time. There are even cases where people who have documented native ancestry and photographs of clearly native relatives read as "99.9%" European or even 100%. Perhaps the fact that Eastern Europe and Western / Central asia HAVE mixed so much in the past makes it more difficult to tell them apart - combine that with the fact that most of the database consists of european genes, and very little of it minority groups or obscure siberian groups, and you clearly have an issue in terms of far greater numbers of europeans to compare against vs east asians. I just can't believe my extremely mongol looking great uncle is over 99% European. It doesn't add up.

C J Wyatt III
10-01-2015, 06:31 PM
We just had ours done at 23andme - and read "less than 1%" Yakut.


I am a little confused. Which relatives tested besides you, and what mtDNA haplogroups did 23andMe assign each to?

Have you uploaded the kit results to GEDmatch?

Thanks,

Jack

walatt
10-01-2015, 08:17 PM
[QUOTE=C J Wyatt III;111877]I am a little confused. Which relatives tested besides you, and what mtDNA haplogroups did 23andMe assign each to?

Have you uploaded the kit results to GEDmatch?

Thanks,

Jack[/QUz


Sorry, I should clarify that- my mother is the one who tested (don't know why she didn't have me do it as it could have mapped my father's side too, who has family from around the same part of the world e.g. eastern europe)
23and me assigned her (and by extension, me, being her son obviously) to:
Eastern European (the majority of any region they could specify beyond "broadly") and gave her another message saying she most closely matched people in the UK, a tiny amount of Germany and a small amount of Scandanavian (6% for her) (her father's side), Finland, Estonia, and Russia (her mother's side) out of all groups. This holds true to what we know about our family from actual documents.
Then, it assigned a big chunk to "broadly northern european" - which could be anywhere in northern europe as far as I can tell including finland, estonia, and russia, and most likely - given I have confirmation of being in estonia at minimal 200 years, which by extension should include Russia because Russia held Estonia as a territory for a long time and we DO have family there - but somehow they couldn't make a distinction - for a big chunk of it.
close to a quarter of it was assigned to Eastern European.
Then there was a small amount of Southern European - it specifies Balkan
and another chunk of "broadly european" which basically is about as helpful as a nail in the head which comprises I think 13% or somewhere in that neighborhood.
Lastly, that little sliver of "East Asia: Yakut" was assigned, as well as a 0.1% portion that was unassigned.

Looking at it on paper, it would make us look like a 100% pasty white family - and yet, as I said, we have black-haired, brown-eyed relatives with epicanthal eye folds, reduced nasal bridge and brow bones, high, wide cheekbones just like many Mongols, and, I might add, VERY much like the Yakut I'm seeing in researching them- and even as recently as my generation - at least in early childhood - there have been some eurasian traits which clearly did NOT look like what people think of when they say "European".

Again, I really wonder if there's some Sami or more Yakut or some other similar group in there that's being lumped in with "Eastern European" or "broadly northern" - is that possible? Or is it hiding in the Y-dna that my mother cannot have tested because she's a female? I don't really understand how it works. ALl I know is, family appearances don't seem to match up with such a tiny percentage - unless somehow even a drop can impact appearances generations later - could it just be possible that the genes are THAT dominant? Or maybe just some siberians with those kinds of eastern features being lumped in as eastern european because they share genetic material with easterners? *I have not uploaded to GED match - not sure how to go about doing that but I'll see if she will do that*

walatt
10-01-2015, 08:24 PM
*sorry I misread you - you asked for haplogroups?

Those were H4a1, H7, and H13 - which say they originated in west asia and don't appear to have anything to do with Yakut people. Given that she inherited those mitochondrial haplos from her mother in a direct line (she had black hair and was from some minor royal bloodline which is why she was given preferential treatment during WWII - we don't know where precisely but she was part of some aristocracy - maybe from the southeast but maybe also from Gdansk) - her mother however did not exhibit any traces of Eurasian features - her father did.

Kale
10-02-2015, 02:59 PM
Well...two things can help explain that.

1) Estonians and Finns have the highest level of Mesolithic European ancestry. Here is an example of a Mesolithic European.

http://www.lameuse.be/sites/default/files/imagecache/pagallery_450x300/2014/09/18/505257274_B973600377Z.1_20140918191216_000_GCN3574 8Q.2-0.jpg

2) All Europeans have a tiny bit of Asian ancestry (even if its only 1% in some areas)...so any sort of "European" component, can absorb a bit of Asian. Estonians probably have 5% or so. Finns I think generally get 6-8% on top of the European baseline, so they are probably closer to 10%.

walatt
10-07-2015, 04:05 AM
I wouldn't say "all Europeans" - at least if we're talking recent enough (with the last 10 generations or so) for 23andme's autosomal test to detect - they tend to ignore anything that is too diluted to detect easily and they say the ethnicity estimates estimate the last few hundred years or so - obviously we can all trace our heritage back to Africa, and there was a lot of back-and-forth migration between Europe and Asia - but I've been looking at a ton of 23andme results and it seems it is mostly those with Eastern European ancestry -especially Finnish and Estonian like my family - who even register a fraction of a percent in terms of east asian. I see a lot of people who have Irish or English or German descent who don't have a trace at all within the last 500 years. I just looked at another dozen results on youtube- most of them (as most white americans are) were western European - none of them had east asian results (though west asian e.g. the near east seems more common by far among Europeans - unsurprising since it is much closer geographically) - then I looked at a few who had a lot of Baltic (Eastern European)/Russian ancestry - and again they did tend to have East Asian genes far more frequently.

Turns out there've been some studies that have been published regarding the phenomenon and specifically regarding Estonians and Finns - it seems there is a divide from the west to the eastern part of each country - those on the western parts are genetically on average closer to central europeans and scandinavians - whereas those to the east increase rapidly in percent of east asian haplogroups detected - I found this particularly interesting because Estonia is VERY small - yet there's such a pronounced difference just going a few hundred miles east. It would explain why I have a relative - a second cousin or something - in Eastern Estonia who has black hair, brown eyes and looks extremely Eurasian, with high, chiseled cheekbones and elegant facial features- it's a striking, pretty look - makes me jealous I ended up with brown, fluffy hair. >.>

I suppose another component could be that my great great grandmother was native american (Ojibwe) - but that would only explain why my little sister was born with asiatic features - it wouldn't explain it on my mom's side at all. I would find 5% as you said a lot less surprising - but our results read much lower on mom's side - so I have to wonder if some of it is only detectable via Y-dna.

Funny thing is if I could grow a beard and had blue eyes and a bigger nose, wider/rounder face, I'd look a lot like that image you linked! We always joked we looked like cave people- I even have very pronounced brow muscles that I don't see in most men. That hair is strikingly like mine XD

Bramoan
02-01-2016, 09:27 AM
I usually score Siberian with most calculators from the 1 to 7% range plus 3% with Dr McDonald's results. Yakuts, Nganasans, Evenks, Buryats, Yukagir, Ulchis and several others are the norm as the reference populations. Will get around to 23andMe eventually.

Dorkymon
02-01-2016, 12:24 PM
I don't have any known Yakut (nor any Asian) ancestry, but I receive a generous amount of it, for an European.

http://i.imgur.com/QZWHj3W.png

evon
02-01-2016, 02:13 PM
I don't have any known Yakut (nor any Asian) ancestry, but I receive a generous amount of it, for an European.


I have seen this allot in peoples from the wider Balkan regions, from what I can tell it could be linked to the post Golden Horde period when the former slaves of the Golden Horde were assimilated into the wider population, both into the Romanian and Romani genepool. We got allot of Tatar matches, with segments tracing back to China which is likely via such ancestry.

evon
02-01-2016, 02:16 PM
This has crossed my mind. I get quite a few Finnish matches and it may be linked to that.

Actually Fins tend to get little East Asian on 23andme, while Norwegians and Swedes tend to get East Asian (Yakut etc) around 0.1-1%, so it is more likely via Sweden then Finland.

Kurd
02-01-2016, 02:26 PM
[It seems almost ALL of those who have primarily European ancestry read as either 99.9 or 100% or close to it - which just doesn't make sense if you understand at all just how much people migrated and mixed throughout time. There are even cases where people who have documented native ancestry and photographs of clearly native relatives read as "99.9%" European or even 100%. Perhaps the fact that Eastern Europe and Western / Central asia HAVE mixed so much in the past makes it more difficult to tell them apart - combine that with the fact that most of the database consists of european genes, and very little of it minority groups or obscure siberian groups, and you clearly have an issue in terms of far greater numbers of europeans to compare against vs east asians. I just can't believe my extremely mongol looking great uncle is over 99% European. It doesn't add up.

Yes, it does not make sense if you are comparing your 23andme's result to your family's phenotype or very distant ancestry. It does make sense however, if you understand 23andme's methodology, which is not based on allele frequencies at individual markers, such as all the Gedmatch calculators, but rather they do haplotype matching. Think of it as some sort of IBD. As you may know IBD is very sensitive to how far you go back in time, depending on your segment length. The sensitivity is even higher than allele frequencies. So basically, 23andme's analysis limits you to shared drift within only the last couple of hundred of years.

You mentioned family members which were E Asian looking at birth, and became less so after growing up. We are in the same boat, except my brother is still E Asian looking even after having grown up.

Case in point, 23andme shows most Indians as 98%+ S Asian, and only about 1% middle-eastern, whereas I think most realize by know, that many Indians have 30%+ Caucuses based ancestry, ENF based ancestry, E Eurasian ancestry, and also a significant percentage of steppe based ancestry, which carries NE European ancestry. That is why most Indians show less than 50% Indian based ancestry using gedmatch's allele frequency based calculators vs 98% S Asian with 23andme. BTW, with 23andme, many to most NW Indians only receive less than 0.4% E Asian with 23andme, which is not correct if you go back any decent amount of time, but this does make sense when you consider their methodology which restricts to only the last couple of hundred years of shared drift.

With regards to E Asian phenotypes not correlating to 23andme results, you can easily see why this would be the case. The genes / alleles that control phenotype are largely not even genotyped by 23andme, since their marker set consists mostly of neutral alleles. Additionally, I believe several positions are correlated with a specific phenotype, and it is not even clear at this time which positions those are. Additionally, even if we were to identify those positions and genotype them, the evidence shows that, in an isolated population, it takes more than a couple of hundred years of recombination for those traits to disappear, even if they are selected against, by environmental factors. Case in point, the time it took to change a person's pigmentation from light to dark and visa versa, such as when humans migrated north from Africa. It can be even longer than this if there are no selective pressures. I am not sure if there even are any environmental factors driving selection for E Asian facial features between Estonia and places east. If there even are, they may be subtle environmental differences.

BalkanKiwi
02-01-2016, 07:07 PM
Actually Fins tend to get little East Asian on 23andme, while Norwegians and Swedes tend to get East Asian (Yakut etc) around 0.1-1%, so it is more likely via Sweden then Finland.

This probably makes sense. I score 2% Scandinavian on 23andMe. Davidski has said I match mostly south Swedes in his database.

Titane
02-03-2016, 12:30 PM
I just joined this forum and find it very interesting because it is done mostly from the European standpoint. A similar discussion at 23andMe was mostly American. I am French-Canadian and it is a known from genealogical studies that at least half of Canadians of French origin have at least one native American in their ancestry. However this ancestry is usually very far back in the 300 to 400 years range. If it was not for the fact that we are an endogamous population, the native contribution would just not show in our profiles. But it does generally in the 0.1 to 0.2% range. Most people would qualify this as noise, except that for many of us "noise" can be given a name, date of marriage etc... I did a quick survey of my genetic matches and out of about 30 who show this lower-level Native American percentage, a third of them is identified as Yakut.
My thought is that it is due to some of the First Nations who reside mostly in the north east of North America, Innu and Mi'kmak. It is entirely possible that the genes travelled from Siberia.

One of my grandmothers has a very round face, yet the possible NA on that side of the family is a good 5 generations back, my mother has this 0.1% Yakut. I don't. My NA comes from my father's side, 12 generations back, but from the Nippissing- further west. All traces of this are gone in my sons'.
I also wonder if Yakut are overrepresented in the 23andMe database. The rest of my ancestry (12 generations) is overwhelmingly French, with one Scottish, one Belgian (so close to the border) and one Swiss couples for added spice.

evon
02-03-2016, 03:38 PM
I just joined this forum and find it very interesting because it is done mostly from the European standpoint. A similar discussion at 23andMe was mostly American. I am French-Canadian and it is a known from genealogical studies that at least half of Canadians of French origin have at least one native American in their ancestry. However this ancestry is usually very far back in the 300 to 400 years range. If it was not for the fact that we are an endogamous population, the native contribution would just not show in our profiles. But it does generally in the 0.1 to 0.2% range. Most people would qualify this as noise, except that for many of us "noise" can be given a name, date of marriage etc... I did a quick survey of my genetic matches and out of about 30 who show this lower-level Native American percentage, a third of them is identified as Yakut.
My thought is that it is due to some of the First Nations who reside mostly in the north east of North America, Innu and Mi'kmak. It is entirely possible that the genes travelled from Siberia.

One of my grandmothers has a very round face, yet the possible NA on that side of the family is a good 5 generations back, my mother has this 0.1% Yakut. I don't. My NA comes from my father's side, 12 generations back, but from the Nippissing- further west. All traces of this are gone in my sons'.
I also wonder if Yakut are overrepresented in the 23andMe database. The rest of my ancestry (12 generations) is overwhelmingly French, with one Scottish, one Belgian (so close to the border) and one Swiss couples for added spice.

What you are talking about is likely the same as in Scandinavians, it is likely ANE ancestry (Ancient North Eurasian (http://www.spiegel.de/international/dna-analysis-shows-native-americans-had-european-roots-a-954675.html)) which comes out as 0.1-1% Yakut at 23andme (European and Native Americans have much more ANE ancestry, but that is not being classified as Yatkut etc by 23andme), so the link between Siberia and NA is not something recent, Native Americans have allot of ANE ancestry, as does most Europeans, especially north Europeans, so it is not impossible that this reflect the European part of your ancestry, but of course if you have known Native American ancestry it can also be from such a source.

Shaikorth
02-03-2016, 03:45 PM
What you are talking about is likely the same as in Scandinavians, it is likely ANE ancestry (Ancient North Eurasian (http://www.spiegel.de/international/dna-analysis-shows-native-americans-had-european-roots-a-954675.html)) which comes out as 0.1-1% Yakut at 23andme (European and Native Americans have much more ANE ancestry, but that is not being classified as Yatkut etc by 23andme), so the link between Siberia and NA is not something recent, Native Americans have allot of ANE ancestry, as does most Europeans, especially north Europeans, so it is not impossible that this reflect the European part of your ancestry, but of course if you have known Native American ancestry it can also be from such a source.

Isn't 23andMe's Native American mainly from HGDP references? Northern Natives are closer to Siberian than Karitiana, Surui etc. are so traces of Yakut (only Siberian reference they have) may appear if someone has native ancestry from say Canada.

evon
02-03-2016, 09:02 PM
Isn't 23andMe's Native American mainly from HGDP references? Northern Natives are closer to Siberian than Karitiana, Surui etc. are so traces of Yakut (only Siberian reference they have) may appear if someone has native ancestry from say Canada.

Not quite sure what you are asking here?

randwulf
02-03-2016, 10:36 PM
I am not sure if this is the intent of Shaikorth, but I may be able to relate. My family are Colonial USA for the most part. My father-in-law is supposed to have a Seminole ancestor, somewhat recent (close enough to be 1%-2%). My mother has very old roots in Appalachia with no Native American stories, but lots of opportunity to acquire it. They don't have recent ancestry from Northern or Northeast Europe, though maybe their Scottish ancestry (not major, but some) applies. They both tend to score some Amerindian in Gedmatch tests, but it behaves "oddly". It jumps around the East Asian buckets, partially Amerindian but partially other stuff (especially Siberian or East Asian). However, I was noticing more predictability when the test also includes an Arctic/Beringian component.

I happened to notice that Vadim has both an Amerindian and an Arctic/Beringian component in his recent tests, so I looked at the spreadsheet for the Ultimate K13 test. He has a lot more North Amerindian scores in the spreadsheet than most of the other calculators have. For example, the Chippewa population he has in the spreadsheet is 40+ percent Amerindian (which the South Amerindians score 100% or close) and 40+ percent Arctic/Beringian (which the Eskimos score very high). Most of us in the USA and Canada with colonial roots would have the North Amerindian variety and I am thinking this leaves the Arctic part of the ancestry seeking a bucket if there is no outlet in the test. So, a lot of times it becomes Siberian or Northeast Asian or even sometimes East Asian. My father-in-law scores .99% Arctic-Amerind in the MDLP World test and the MDLP World-22 test just buckets it as .87% North_Amerind with nothing in either test in any of the other East Asian categories. For my mom, the scores are MDLP World .41 % Arctic_Amerind and .34% Mesoamerican, MDLP World-22 .40% Arctic-Amerind and .19% South-America_Amerind with nothing else East Asian like in the scores. These two tests really seem to distinguish well the source of the data, at least for us, as my father (who has suspected South East Asian ancestor) scores on these tests mostly non-Amerindian numbers (he does get a .40% Arctic on the World-22 to go with his .84% North Siberian, .37% Melanesian, .44% Austronesian numbers, but he often gets very "north" and very "south" East Asian numbers mixed and they are all together in the Chromosome segments) instead of the Amerindian numbers. These MDLP tests in general have some of the most "conservative" estimates on these Asian scores for us. Some other tests score quite a bit higher, even double in these categories, but the population groupings seem to match the paper trail very well.

Shaikorth
02-03-2016, 11:43 PM
I am not sure if this is the intent of Shaikorth, but I may be able to relate. My family are Colonial USA for the most part. My father-in-law is supposed to have a Seminole ancestor, somewhat recent (close enough to be 1%-2%). My mother has very old roots in Appalachia with no Native American stories, but lots of opportunity to acquire it. They don't have recent ancestry from Northern or Northeast Europe, though maybe their Scottish ancestry (not major, but some) applies. They both tend to score some Amerindian in Gedmatch tests, but it behaves "oddly". It jumps around the East Asian buckets, partially Amerindian but partially other stuff (especially Siberian or East Asian). However, I was noticing more predictability when the test also includes an Arctic/Beringian component.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. In 23andMe, the shift of northern natives should go to Yakut in absence of Eskimos or Chukchis, and that's why northern native ancestry can show as amerindian + Yakut.

Cinnamon orange
02-04-2016, 04:52 AM
I don't have any known Yakut (nor any Asian) ancestry, but I receive a generous amount of it, for an European.

http://i.imgur.com/QZWHj3W.png

Most of my Romainian shares on 23andme do. I think it goes back to the Cumans and other groups that settled in the area.

Dorkymon
02-04-2016, 11:17 AM
Actually Fins tend to get little East Asian on 23andme, while Norwegians and Swedes tend to get East Asian (Yakut etc) around 0.1-1%, so it is more likely via Sweden then Finland.

I was told that the East Asian influences in Finns are usually masked in the Finnish component on 23andme, since it is based on the samples of Finns. That might explain my scoring of 0.2% in Finnish.

Dorkymon
02-04-2016, 11:24 AM
I have seen this allot in peoples from the wider Balkan regions, from what I can tell it could be linked to the post Golden Horde period when the former slaves of the Golden Horde were assimilated into the wider population, both into the Romanian and Romani genepool. We got allot of Tatar matches, with segments tracing back to China which is likely via such ancestry.

I'm actually sharing 5cM with a Chinese person (91% in the Chinese component, 6% Korean and the rest is broadly East Asian) on the chromosome where I have a trace of East Asian.

evon
02-04-2016, 11:37 AM
I was told that the East Asian influences in Finns are usually masked in the Finnish component on 23andme, since it is based on the samples of Finns. That might explain my scoring of 0.2% in Finnish.

Yes, it seems to be the case, however one can also argue that it is not Asian in origin, but rather Eurasian and closely related to ANE.

evon
02-04-2016, 11:39 AM
I'm actually sharing 5cM with a Chinese person (91% in the Chinese component, 6% Korean and the rest is broadly East Asian) on the chromosome where I have a trace of East Asian.

I would expect as much, 5cM can be very old though, I share a bunch with people in India which I expect to be at least 1000 years old..I have also seen similar matches in China with people from the Nordic region.

Shaikorth
02-04-2016, 01:34 PM
Yes, it seems to be the case, however one can also argue that it is not Asian in origin, but rather Eurasian and closely related to ANE.

Bill O'Reilly who's West European in ancestry has the same 0.2% Finnish (http://www-tc.pbs.org/weta/finding-your-roots/files/2016/01/BillOReillyadmix.jpg), these kind of traces probably are just noise though perhaps ANE- or even WHG-related. On occasion you'll even see 0,1% Oceanian (Papuan/Melanesian), in European individuals who have no connection there, that's hard to put to anything but noise.

madyaz
03-12-2017, 04:00 PM
I have 2% Yakut ancestry (3.3% East Asian) on ch 1,2,3,4, and 7.

Edward J
03-13-2017, 12:52 PM
My father (western euro) shows 0.3 Yakut on Chromo 2, 10, and 13.

Harriet powell
06-16-2017, 09:58 PM
Hi all,

I was curious as to if anyone on here has known Yakut ancestry or gets some on the 23andMe Ancestry Composition?

I get 0.1% Yakut in Speculative Mode which occurs on chromosome 6. I had a look at 6 on the chromosome browser for the K13 and do get some Siberian and East Asian throughout and near its location on 23andMe. At the start of the chromosome I get a bit of Siberian/East Asian overlap. My biggest (highest peak) chunk is actually on chromosome 15, from about 83cM-86cM.

I haven't seen many Yakut results from 23andMe. Are there many people that have more than, say, 10%? Interestingly on the K13 I get 0% Siberian but 0.53% East Asian. The only calculator I get any Siberian on is the MDLP World 22, 0.37%. North-Siberean. East Asian is more common for me in the calculators but all of it is under 1%. Considering how distant it is I shouldn't be surprised. I also get 0.98% Indo-Tibetan on the World 22, whether that's related to migration from the area or something completely different I'm not sure.

I don't think its noise as its probably related to my Eastern European ancestry or at the very least, my Croatian through Turkish migration into the Balkans.

Feel free to share your thoughts and findings :)I have, according to 23 and me, a Yakut ancestor who lived between 1600 and 1660. Live in US. Mostly English and Scottish, early settlers in US, a bit later in Canada.Do not have chromosomal info on my DNA