Quo vadis T? Did T originate in Italy?

[GogMagog]

Sykes (2002) states that T began in what is now Tuscany. Yet according to others (evidence?) T is not of Italian origin. It is known that T is a branch of J (so modern day Syria region) but at what stage does one say an mtDNA haplotype becomes European?

[Kale]

There's nothing really pointing towards a migration from Tuscany to all the places where T is present today. Today T is found of course in Europe, but also the Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia.

T shares an ancestor with J, JT. R2 is the next closest relative to JT. R2 is found in the Middle East. J is predominantly Middle Eastern, and is prominent in the European Neolithic. They all share in common the Middle East, that's where I'd put my money on R2'JT emerging. With R2, J, and T, emerging in different parts of the Middle East.

[GogMagog]

Yes but Sykes never refuted his theory that northern Italy (Tuscany) is where 17000 ybp T emerged.

[Kale]

Why would any academic spend energy showing why they were wrong before when they could be spending that energy showing why they are right now? You don't get paid to be wrong in the past, you are paid to be right in the present.

[Jean M]

Sykes (2002) states that T began in what is now Tuscany.

Bryan Sykes, The Seven Daughters of Eve (2001) made a set of assertions which are now seen as ludicrous. He was guessing from extremely limited data. He paid the price of a pioneer leaping into popularisation long before the field had a solid foundation. He made money, but he was spectacularly wrong.

He claimed specific European origins for all the mtDNA haplogroups common in Europe today except J, which he thought was a signal of farmers from the Near East. The only one he was right about was J. In later literature he included some of T with J as of farming origin. I forget the details. Frankly it is not important. We are 15 years on from when he was writing. We have far more data. The whole picture has changed dramatically.

[GogMagog]

Fair enough, but at what stage does a haplotype become European? Far back enough it is all African but T plus the other major groups in Europe each cluster in specific places.

[Jean M]

Fair enough, but at what stage does a haplotype become European?

Here is my table of ancient DNA from the European Neolithic: http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/europeanneolithicdna.shtml
Right at the top you will see mtDNA T1a and T2b in early farmers in Hungary. Those are the earliest samples of T so far found in Europe, but we can expect earlier ones from further south (at the entry points for farmers), once we have aDNA from there.

The earliest T1a1 is further down the table at Karsdorf in Germany 3950-3400 BC.

[GogMagog]

Also what of South Uist 1200 BC? I am puzzling over how T1a came to Britain, until now we were told via Vikings in 800 AD. Transmission must have been from the continent, as an Etruscanologist I'd expect you to fly the Italian flag on this! I will dig deeper now.

[Jean M]

Also what of South Uist 1200 BC? I am puzzling over how T1a came to Britain, until now we were told via Vikings in 800 AD.

Well we have solid proof at South Uist of T1a in the Bronze Age, so an origin with the Vikings is yesterday's story. Like so many assertions made on modern DNA alone, it has been trashed by ancient DNA. We have so little aDNA from Britain that I can't say whether T1a arrived there in the Neolithic.


as an Etruscanologist

Me? No. That just happens to be a lively thread at the moment. :biggrin1:

[vettor]

Finally received my fathers results

His Mtdna as per james lick site is T2b26 with only one extra mutation. I do not know where it originates