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TigerMW
05-18-2015, 01:13 AM
We've crossed over the 6,900 mark for members in the R1b project. This is good because as people upgrade to 67 STRs and do SNP testing we help place them in the right major "home" subclade (of R1b) project, such as ht35, U106, P312, U152, DF27, etc.

Even after finding "home", by staying in the group they become good models for others and get included in the R1b_Haplotypes 67 STR comparison file where we can look at genetic distances and STR signatures on the same report with SNP results. This should help people find you and your haplogroup, even if the match does not show up on the FTDNA matching screen (due to GD limits).

The "big picture" tree is on the "About" page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about

The "Background" tab from the About pages shows how the project operates:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

The "Results" tab from the About pages shows how to find the key reports and has descriptions and links to a variety of sources including scientific papers about R1b.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

If you see any facts or links that are incorrect, please reply here.

R1b is marked by M343+, but this includes the M269+ or P25+ people and all of the downstream SNPs like P312, L21, U106, etc, .etc. You might think of this as an umbrella project. If some one is R-M269, R-M343, R-P25 or anything in R1b and not sure where they fit, please have them join this project.

icebreaker
05-18-2015, 01:41 AM
Cool. I just joined this project (I'm #320190).

David Mc
05-19-2015, 09:21 PM
... Even after finding "home", by staying in the group they become good models for others and get included in the R1b_Haplotypes 67 STR comparison file where we can look at genetic distances and STR signatures on the same report with SNP results. This should help people find you and your haplogroup, even if the match does not show up on the FTDNA matching screen (due to GD limits)...
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about



Hi Mike,
I just joined (216031). I've been part of the R-L21 project for ages and the DF49 project for a goodly while. Great idea encouraging people to go back farther to help others plot themselves in with existing SNPs.

TigerMW
05-19-2015, 10:43 PM
Hi Mike,
I just joined (216031). I've been part of the R-L21 project for ages and the DF49 project for a goodly while. Great idea encouraging people to go back farther to help others plot themselves in with existing SNPs.
Thanks, David and Icebreaker. This does help, in fact it is essential.

TigerMW
12-11-2015, 04:06 PM
We've had an acceleration in growth recently in the R1b project. This is a chart from the project statistics taken this morning. We are over 8,500 people in the project. This has grown 600 people in last week and a half.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b_Project_Growth.pdf

I'm encouraging people to upgrade to 111 Y STRs while they are on sale. Here is more background on the project; and the haplotype and gateway services provided.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b/about/background

Co-admin Gail R has been fantastic in supporting the project! Thanks to her we have some order.

This is all good for the large subclade of R1b projects too. I've stayed up late the last couple of nights joining people to sub projects.

VinceT
12-12-2015, 01:26 AM
We've had an acceleration in growth recently in the R1b project. This is a chart from the project statistics taken this morning. We are over 8,500 people in the project. This has grown 600 people in last week and a half.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b_Project_Growth.pdf

I'm encouraging people to upgrade to 111 Y STRs while they are on sale. Here is more background on the project; and the haplotype and gateway services provided.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b/about/background

Co-admin Gail R has been fantastic in supporting the project! Thanks to her we have some order.

This is all good for the large subclade of R1b projects too. I've stayed up late the last couple of nights joining people to sub projects.

Wow, congrats! The trendline for that graph now looks like a 5th degree polynomial. Be prepared to hit 100,000 members by Dec. 2020! ;)

VinceT
12-12-2015, 01:32 AM
Or: that trend looks overbought. Expect a major correction shortly... lol

TigerMW
12-14-2015, 11:42 PM
is there any chance that FTDNA will relax their maximum GD of 10, so that people who have long ago upgraded to 111 STRs can see some results?
Not that I know of. This is the much of the reason I started downloading haplotypes and doing my GDs and STR off-modal tracking. It was an effort to build my deep ancestral relative base, people related 600 to 1500 years ago to me.

I plan on extending the R1b_Haplotypes spreadsheet with a 111 STR only version and make it just 111 STR and Big Y tested folks so that others can see if they can get lucky in leveraging 111 STR results.

Eochaidh
12-15-2015, 12:06 AM
I plan on extending the R1b_Haplotypes spreadsheet with a 111 STR only version and make it just 111 STR and Big Y tested folks so that others can see if they can get lucky in leveraging 111 STR results.
Thanks, you helped me with this in mid 2013 and one of the closest matches that you found turns out to br R1b>M222>FGC4077>A725 with me.

TigerMW
12-15-2015, 12:19 AM
Thanks, you helped me with this in mid 2013 and one of the closest matches that you found turns out to br R1b>M222>FGC4077>A725 with me.
You are welcome. Thank you for letting me know Eochaidh as I appreciate it. A lot of these things do work nicely but it is easy to get bogged down and forget about the progress. The lift is appreciated.:)

TigerMW
12-23-2015, 05:08 PM
Not that I know of. This is the much of the reason I started downloading haplotypes and doing my GDs and STR off-modal tracking. It was an effort to build my deep ancestral relative base, people related 600 to 1500 years ago to me.

I plan on extending the R1b_Haplotypes spreadsheet with a 111 STR only version and make it just 111 STR and Big Y tested folks so that others can see if they can get lucky in leveraging 111 STR results.

I will start tonight or tomorrow on sweeping through the R1b project for all 67 STR or greater haplotypes to update the R1b_Haplotypes spreadsheet. If people in your projects want to be included and have 67 or more STRs, have them join the R1b project today.

We've had an enormous number of 111 STR upgrade orders.

We are also seeing STR upgrade results already from the earliest orders the last week of November as the holiday sale started. I think 111 has become new gold standard. It's about time.

TigerMW
12-27-2015, 06:22 PM
I have been doing some work on the R1b project haplotypes spreadsheet and will create a separate section for 111 STRs, but in the process uncovered the counts of branches on the ISOGG and FTDNA trees for R1b.

I counted over 500 branches for ISOGG and over 1100 for FTDNA. I'm counting unique branches, not phylogenetic equivalent SNPs. For FTDNA in particular, this is significant process over the last year. We should move past 1200 fairly shortly as FTDNA produces the last few packs for R1b.

After that we should see growth driven the long, hard, slow route by submitting individual updates and corrections to the FTDNA Ytree team based on pack results for experimental SNPs and some phylogenetic block busting. The same will continue to be driven by additional NGS testing as well as youthful branches, since NGS is the only way to discover new terminal branching. We've had a nice influx of Big Y orders for L21 and DF27. It's not slowing down.

Anyway, great news for R1b - over 1100 branches defined on a formal haplotree. 2015 has been a great year.

TigerMW
12-31-2015, 05:36 PM
The R1b project just hit 8,750 members so that looks like our year-end number. A large number of SNP Pack and Big Y results have come in over the last week or so. A lot of people have now been placed in the proper subgroups and haplogroup projects. Gail R, our co-admin, is out on vacation. We need her back!... seriously, though she needs to enjoy. :)

TigerMW
01-02-2016, 01:48 AM
It's been a very big year for R1b folks. Our project has grown in leaps and bounds. As of just a few minutes ago we have 8,777 members in the project. This is very helpful as we have a matching program that allows checking genetic distances and STR signature markers beyond what FTDNA allows you to view on the matches screen.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b/about/

You need at least 67 STRs for this extended matching but we are see most new upgrades all the way to 111 STRs to better support genealogy. This December there have been a large number of STR upgrades to go with continued Big Y and SNP Pack orders.

Beyond the project, ancient DNA research is helping us discover where we are from. It appears our R1b ancestors expanded through Europe relatively quickly during the Bronze Age from the east - metal working stockherders of the Eurasian Steppes call Yamnaya. These Yamnaya (Pit grave) people integrated evolved into groups moving through Western Europe all the way to Ireland. Most noteworthy are the Bell Beaker folks, who instituted the first Pan-European society.

MitchellSince1893
01-02-2016, 03:22 AM
This is very helpful as we have a matching program that allows checking genetic distances and STR signature markers beyond what FTDNA allows you to view on the matches screen.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b/about/

You need at least 67 STRs for this extended matching but we are see most new upgrades all the way to 111 STRs to better support genealogy.

How does an individual such as myself view my "extended matches"?

TigerMW
01-02-2016, 03:53 AM
How does an individual such as myself view my "extended matches"?
If you are handy with a spreadsheet you can do it yourself by downloading the R1b-Haplotype.xlsm file in the Files section of the R1b-YDNA yahoo group.

If not, you can just post an inquiry on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group with your kit #, and as long as you are in the project we'll be able to look at it.

The spreadsheet shows GDs for everyone in the project with at least 67 STRs from and selected kit # in the spreadsheet. No limits. You can think of the spreadsheet as a Y colorized project report for people with 67 STRs with additional columns for off-modal STRs sorted slowest to fastest and SNP results (rather than on a separate Y SNP project screen.)

This little .pdf guide has illustrations and instructions.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b_Haplotypes_Help.pdf

MitchellSince1893
01-02-2016, 05:01 AM
Thanks. I just checked. My closest match at 67 markers was GD of 16. :pout:

TigerMW
01-28-2016, 01:43 PM
We now have over 9,000 members in the R1b project.

I will start updating the R1b_Haplotypes spreadsheet today. If you have R-M269 folks or anyone of any R1b subclade in your surname projects that have 67 or more STRs, please have them join the R1b project today so they can be included.

You can find more info on this file here: http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Haplotypes-Help

I'm going to try to add a 111 STRs section this weekend.

Updates about the file and access to the file are posted on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group (files section).

TigerMW
02-03-2016, 12:24 AM
....
You can find more info on this file here: http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Haplotypes-Help

I'm going to try to add a 111 STRs section this weekend.

Updates about the file and access to the file are posted on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group (files section).

I've posted the update to this spreadsheet. There are now 5,932 67 STR haplotypes from the project in the file.

A 111 STR haplotype section has been added. The 111 STR section has 3,074 haplotypes. 1,622 of these also have Big Y results so I'm labeling the Big Y + 111 haplotypes as gold haplotypes. This time it is a term I'm making up.:) I think they are great model haplotypes for R1b newbies and project admins to compare against.

These 1,622 are not all from the R1b project though. I reverse engineered how to determine who has done Big Y or not and then copied in 111 haplotypes from the big other projects on the P311 side.

This means I missed the ht35 side. Does anyone have a list of kit #s for Big Y people in the M269+ U106- P312- project? Email it to me at m w w d n a at gmail and I'll take care of the rest. You can get it on the GAP tool by filtering to Lab procedure = HiYNGS on the Members Reports / Received Results web page.

We are at 9,072 members in the R1b project. Gail R is doing outstanding work for us as a co-admin and that's an understatement. A side benefit to other large projects is we are stressing I/T capabilities so things should be smoother for other large projects.

TigerMW
04-04-2016, 11:12 PM
I've updated the R1b_Haplotypes file. You can access it in the R1b-YDNA yahoo group FILES section. Here is the link to the yahoo group.

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-YDNA/info

There are 6,519 67 STR haplotypes in the the file under the AllHts tab/worksheet. The spreadsheet automatically calculates modes, means, variance and genetic distance (GD). The GD calculations work for everyone in the spreadsheet. There is no maximum threshold like on the myFTDNA matching screens. STR signatures are supported with off-modal "colorized" displays and there is a display of STR off-modals from slow to fast mutation rate rather than standard FTDNA panel sequence. A summary distribution of values per each STR is at the bottom of the worksheet.

The ExtHts tab/worksheet has 3,674 111 STR haplotypes and it now has 1,717 Gold haplotypes which are both 111 STR and Big Y tested. This is great progress. Kudos to all.

This file is a zipped folder under Windows 10. Once you download it you can open it with MS Excel. I recognize not everyone has access to a compatible spreadsheet tool or a laptop with enough memory. Please make your inquiries on your kit # on the yahoo group or here if you don't want to dive into the data directly.

A PDF print file view of just the 111 STR haplotypes is also available under the FILES section.


...
I will start updating the R1b_Haplotypes spreadsheet today. If you have R-M269 folks or anyone of any R1b subclade in your surname projects that have 67 or more STRs, please have them join the R1b project today so they can be included.

You can find more info on this file here: http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Haplotypes-Help
....

Updates about the file and access to the file are posted on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group (files section).

TigerMW
04-06-2016, 11:40 PM
We just clicked over 10,000. We have over 10,000 members in the R1b project now.

Gail R reports in that an Irish surname person broke the barrier at 10:23 AM New Zealand time on April 7th (6:23 PM CDT on April 6th, where I sit in sunny Austin).

This is great work by all, but let us not stop. We need the R-M269 predicted newbies to get involved and consider upgrading to 67 STRs and the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack. We need the lead explorers to get 111 STRs and do NGS testing.

This is what shakes the big R1b tree and helps us discover the true layering in the R1b tree, which is good for everybody. R1b is the best studied haplogroup, but we are not done. We'll get this thing connected from the head to the toe (from the ancient to the last hundred years or so).

Lugus
04-07-2016, 05:35 AM
We just clicked over 10,000. We have over 10,000 members in the R1b project now.

Gail R reports in that an Irish surname person broke the barrier at 10:23 AM New Zealand time on April 7th (6:23 PM CDT on April 6th, where I sit in sunny Austin).

This is great work by all, but let us not stop. We need the R-M269 predicted newbies to get involved and consider upgrading to 67 STRs and the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack. We need the lead explorers to get 111 STRs and do NGS testing.

This is what shakes the big R1b tree and helps us discover the true layering in the R1b tree, which is good for everybody. R1b is the best studied haplogroup, but we are not done. We'll get this thing connected from the head to the toe (from the ancient to the last hundred years or so).

Congratulations! I added my maternal uncle a few weeks ago (M269 predicted) and I'm waiting for his BigY results. It's amazing how many people haven't bothered doing SNPs. I think that should be the next goal and not more STRs, which look all the same. My uncle has "matches" with every subclade of M269.

TigerMW
04-07-2016, 01:54 PM
Congratulations! I added my maternal uncle a few weeks ago (M269 predicted) and I'm waiting for his BigY results. It's amazing how many people haven't bothered doing SNPs. I think that should be the next goal and not more STRs, which look all the same. My uncle has "matches" with every subclade of M269.
Thanks for joining.

I don't look at SNPs and STRs as one versus another but as additive in value. For instance Big Y testing will find an SNP about once every four father-son transmissions (25% of the time) whereas the STR 1-111 panel has a change about once every three father-son transmissions (33% of the time). To add them together from a probability perspective, of the 75% (1- 25%) of the time there is not an SNP there is a 33% chance of an STR change so 25% + (75% x 33%) = just about 50%. The opportunity for finding a difference is almost every other generation. That means we are talking about a very good chance of a discerning mutation between grandson and grandfather.

Another area of synergy is for people who won't spend the money on NGS testing. By all means, if someone is considering NGS testing they should do it... don't think twice, just do it. It's the best long-term thing you can do.

However, the majority today won't do NGS. It's just too expensive. In that case, it pays to do the STRs first and make sure you are well positioned in the large matching database. Then you can look for matches and STR signature patterns that have clues about your subclade. This might help you save money on SNP testing by guiding to a very specific SNP pack or panel or a handful of individual SNPs.

Here is a great presentation of the in's and out's of applying both SNPs and STRs together in analyzing a surname cluster. It's only an hour and it is entertaining too.
"Combining SNPs, STRs, & Genealogy to build a Surname Origins Tree", Dr. Maurice Gleeson, 2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvyHY4R6DwE&feature=youtu.be

TigerMW
04-14-2016, 01:32 PM
We are already over 10,100 members so 100 have joined in about a week. I expect this rate of growth to slow, but I guess not yet.


We just clicked over 10,000. We have over 10,000 members in the R1b project now.

Gail R reports in that an Irish surname person broke the barrier at 10:23 AM New Zealand time on April 7th (6:23 PM CDT on April 6th, where I sit in sunny Austin).

This is great work by all, but let us not stop. We need the R-M269 predicted newbies to get involved and consider upgrading to 67 STRs and the R1b-M343 Backbone SNP Pack. We need the lead explorers to get 111 STRs and do NGS testing.

This is what shakes the big R1b tree and helps us discover the true layering in the R1b tree, which is good for everybody. R1b is the best studied haplogroup, but we are not done. We'll get this thing connected from the head to the toe (from the ancient to the last hundred years or so).

TigerMW
04-28-2016, 09:39 PM
Factoids..

R1b now has approximately 1,811 distinct branches on the R1b haplotree.

The R1b-CTS4466 (Irish II) SNP Pack has been updates. Several more pack updates are in the works.

An R1b-L2 (xZ49 xZ367) SNP Pack has been released.

An R1b-L555 (Clan Irwin) SNP Pack has been released.

There quite a few new Big Y orders. It appears the M222 (NW Irish) and Iberian projects had a lot of good activity.

The R1b project now has 10,165 members. I removed the proven non-R1b people today.

TigerMW
07-11-2016, 06:41 PM
There now about 1,961 distinct subclades on the R1b FTDNA haplotree.

The R1b project now has 10,762 members.

Several more SNP Packs have been released over the last two months, including refresh break-outs of old SNP Packs.


Factoids..

R1b now has approximately 1,811 distinct branches on the R1b haplotree.

The R1b-CTS4466 (Irish II) SNP Pack has been updates. Several more pack updates are in the works.

An R1b-L2 (xZ49 xZ367) SNP Pack has been released.

An R1b-L555 (Clan Irwin) SNP Pack has been released.

There quite a few new Big Y orders. It appears the M222 (NW Irish) and Iberian projects had a lot of good activity.

The R1b project now has 10,165 members. I removed the proven non-R1b people today.

Tomenable
07-11-2016, 09:48 PM
I didn't notice this project before. Joined it now.

TigerMW
07-31-2016, 04:45 PM
I didn't notice this project before. Joined it now.
To all, please ask your project members who are R-M269 or R-M343 or anything downstream to join the R1b All Subclades project now. I will be updating the R1b-Haplotypes comparison tool for those who have 67 or 111 STRs.

TigerMW
08-05-2016, 02:46 AM
There now about 1,961 distinct subclades on the R1b FTDNA haplotree.

I just counted 2,120 distinct subclades (branches) on the R1b FTDNA haplotree. I'm going to try to get a few added for my subclade this week.

TigerMW
08-11-2016, 03:09 PM
To all, please ask your project members who are R-M269 or R-M343 or anything downstream to join the R1b All Subclades project now. I will be updating the R1b-Haplotypes comparison tool for those who have 67 or 111 STRs.

I've updated the R1b project 67 and 111 STR haplotype spreadsheet and moved it under the "Links" section of the R1b-YDNA project yahoo group.

We have 7,298 67 STR haplotypes from the R1b project on the first tab/worksheet and 3,834 111 STR haplotypes on the next tab. 1,920 are gold haplotypes with 111 STRs plus Big Y.

You can get to the web links section by going to the home page and hitting drop down on More on the menu bar across the middle. You'll end up at this URL:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b-YDNA/links/

You can sort the links by last update date or alphabetically. As an aid for alphabetical I tried to use key words like "Research" for scientific articles, "Project" for links to other projects, etc. These are under "Tools".

Tools - R1b project 67 and 111 STR haplotypes spreadsheet

Tools - R1b project 111 STR haplotypes PDF

The spreadsheet version has Genetic Distance calculations and sorting from anyone in the spreadsheet to everyone else in the spreadsheet. This breaks FTDNA's matching thresholds. There are mode, mean and variance summaries by selected subgroups. You can also see an allele (STR value) frequency distribution at the bottom.

jbarry6899
08-11-2016, 06:01 PM
Thanks, Mike--I struggle with these files because I have Excel2008 for Mac which doesn't run visualbasic macros!

I was looking at Matt's web app for STR searching but couldn't figure out how to link it to the spreadsheet or other results. Are there any instructions or could you summarize how to use it?

Thanks!

TigerMW
08-11-2016, 08:59 PM
Thanks, Mike--I struggle with these files because I have Excel2008 for Mac which doesn't run visualbasic macros!

I was looking at Matt's web app for STR searching but couldn't figure out how to link it to the spreadsheet or other results. Are there any instructions or could you summarize how to use it?

Thanks!
He posts on that group but I haven't heard from him for a while. It's pretty slick what he does. He copies the spreadsheet into some database and wrote the little query program. We need to bring up his thread and see if he can update his database.
He has the capability to search on specific STR values as well as GD thing.

The calculations and including the Genetic Distances should work. You just have to manually make sure there is only one "X" in the GD column to be associated with your target haplotype row.

You can manually sort as well, but you have to know to select the right ranges, etc.

TigerMW
08-13-2016, 12:48 AM
Thanks, Mike--I struggle with these files because I have Excel2008 for Mac which doesn't run visualbasic macros!

I was looking at Matt's web app for STR searching but couldn't figure out how to link it to the spreadsheet or other results. Are there any instructions or could you summarize how to use it?

Thanks!
I forgot to add that the fallback is just to ask for help. That's much of the reason for the R1b-YDNA group, so people can ask for help. Someone will look at your GDs and STR signature matches in the spreadsheet and reply with a post.

TigerMW
08-16-2016, 12:28 PM
Thanks, Mike--I struggle with these files because I have Excel2008 for Mac which doesn't run visualbasic macros!

I was looking at Matt's web app for STR searching but couldn't figure out how to link it to the spreadsheet or other results. Are there any instructions or could you summarize how to use it?

Thanks!
Matt just posted on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group. He's updated the app. It works a little differently than last update. It looks like you enter a diversity % / threshold on this version... so you are not locked into the FTDNA threshold.

TigerMW
08-16-2016, 09:43 PM
We just hit 11,000 members of the R1b All Subclades and Gateway Project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

I just updated the R1b_Haplotypes file and we have over 7,300 people in the project with 67 or more Y STRs. 67 STRs is the standard.

We have 4,222 in the R1b_Haplotypes spreadsheet with 111 STRs so there is a lot to compare with. The actual FTDNA database for R1b has many more 111 STR haplotypes. I know this because I can find at least 5,580 111 STR haplotypes just for R1b-L21 in the various I search.

There has to be at least 10,000 R1b 111 STR haplotypes possibly 20,000 in FTDNA's database.

raspberry
08-16-2016, 09:54 PM
I joined your group. My kit number is 501793. Could you add me please? Btw our y-dna and mt-dna are the same:D

TigerMW
08-16-2016, 10:02 PM
I joined your group. My kit number is 501793. Could you add me please? Btw our y-dna and mt-dna are the same:D

If you joined three or four hours ago and have 67 STRs or more you are already in the spreadsheet. I update it about once a month.

Anyone who is R-M269, R-P25, R-M343 predicted or confirmed or anything downstream in R1b is invited.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

raspberry
08-16-2016, 10:05 PM
If you joined three or four hours ago and have 67 STRs or more you are already in the spreadsheet. I update it about once a month.

Anyone who is R-M269, R-P25, R-M343 predicted or confirmed or anything downstream in R1b is invited.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

I joined a few minutes ago and only have a y-37 markers test but I bought a Snp pack.

TigerMW
08-16-2016, 10:09 PM
I joined a few minutes ago and only have a y-37 markers test but I bought a Snp pack.
Cool. What major haplogroup do you think you'll fall under?

raspberry
08-16-2016, 10:14 PM
Cool. What major haplogroup do you think you'll fall under?

I dont know.. Maybe you could help me.. I am comparing my str-values with your group members but I dont find someone whose markers are same (mostly similar/same)..

TigerMW
08-16-2016, 10:20 PM
I dont know.. Maybe you could help me.. I am comparing my str-values with your group members but I dont find someone whose markers are same (mostly similar/same)..
I really think predicting from 37 STRs is very risk as we've talked about on other threads. There are a few exceptions like L226/Irish III. I believe the U198 people feel like they have a strong signature at 37 STRs.

Do you have 37 of 37 or 36 of 37 matches on your myFTDNA matches screen? If you see some that have haplogroups showing other than R-M269 that might be a good indicator.

raspberry
08-16-2016, 10:21 PM
I really think predicting from 37 STRs is very risk as we've talked about on other threads. There are a few exceptions like L226/Irish III. I believe the U198 people feel like they have a strong signature at 37 STRs.

Do you have 37 of 37 or 36 of 37 matches on your myFTDNA matches screen? If you see some that have haplogroups showing other than R-M269 that might be a good indicator.

I have no matches at all..

TigerMW
08-16-2016, 10:30 PM
I have no matches at all..
At 67 STRs you might not pick up any matches but at least we have a decent shot at finding an STR signature... something DYS492=13 to go with DYS390=23 which usually means U106.

One way you can look at it is you know where you stand. I had some matches at 37, but it turns out they were false matches and a waste of time.

TigerMW
08-19-2016, 10:22 PM
I've figured out how to download and then quickly resort and collate the FTDNA haplotree. You can get to it from your myFTDNA account when you look at the Y DNA section and go to "Haplotree & SNPs". That's a bit of pain, though.

However, I find it much easier to scroll back and forth, up and down, etc., on a spreadsheet so that set me on creating what I will call the R1b Tree Outline. You can get to it from the "About/Results" web page of the R1b project.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results#/RREPORTS

If you scroll down you under "Project Detail Reports" you will see this that you can click on to get the spreadsheet.

R1b Haplotree in outline format - List of lead SNPs for distinctive branches on FTDNA's R1b haplotree. An indented outline format is used in an MS Excel file to show levels of branching. Check date for currency.

Here is a .PDF version of the spreadsheet.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf

The big picture or high level R1b Descendants Tree chart is still available on the "About" page of the project and here.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Chart-pdf

The FTDNA R1b haplotree now has 2,205 distinct branches so it has grown even quite a few in the last day and a half.

This only shows the "lead" SNPs per branch. Does anyone have any ideas on how to copy off the phylogenetic equivalent SNPs under the "More" pop-ups in one fell swoop?

GoldenHind
08-20-2016, 01:15 AM
big picture[/I] or high level R1b Descendants Tree chart is still available on the "About" page of the project and here.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Chart-pdf



Pardon me if I am more than a little sensitive about this, but I notice none of the currently known substructure of either L238 or DF99 appears on your diagram.

TigerMW
08-20-2016, 01:27 AM
Pardon me if I am more than a little sensitive about this, but I notice none of the currently known substructure of either L238 or DF99 appears on your diagram.
No need to be sensitive. I have no authorship in this. It is not really my content in the diagram. I am just trying to display things and provide tools so that people can get their input in. You probably did not see it but on the R1b Yahoo group I included the email of their Y team at FTDNA so people can submit updates.
The tree guy is pretty responsive.

TigerMW
08-24-2016, 01:30 PM
No need to be sensitive. I have no authorship in this. It is not really my content in the diagram. I am just trying to display things and provide tools so that people can get their input in. You probably did not see it but on the R1b Yahoo group I included the email of their Y team at FTDNA so people can submit updates.
The tree guy is pretty responsive.

The contact is Michael Sager - michaels at genebygene dot com.

I've had several responses from people saying they are getting good results with him. Below is an example.

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 5:19 PM, Carl Moore wrote:
Mike,

Following the procedure you suggested, I contacted Michael Sager this morning about four Moore-surnamed individuals who were previously classified as L1335/S530>L1065>Z16325>S744>Y15476/Y15102 in FTDNA's y-haplogroup tree. All had been Big-Y tested, and Alex Williamson's Big Tree had established two mutations downstream of Y15476/Y15102 – A9863 & an unnamed 9003515 C-T mutation downstream of A9863 shared by two of the four kits.

Michael responded a few minutes ago. FTDNA's tree has been modified to incorporate both of these mutations. The 9003515 C-T mutation has been named BY11343.

Thanks for the suggestion. Now if we can only get ISOGG to move; so far they have not even recognized the Y15476/Y15102 mutation as part of their tree. My previous communications to ISOGG on this matter prompted a response to the effect that ISOGG works in mysterious ways!

He can directly review and interpret BAM files as well as can look up Advanced Test and SNP Pack results and follow-up on calls that may be in question. They also do Blatt analysis and have lists of questionable regions, but I only submit things for the tree that I'm sure of as they make plenty of errors. They will correct them though.

There is no need to send clips of BAM files or other results screens since Michael has complete access to what's in the FTDNA database. He just needs kit numbers and the logic (+'s and -'s) of positioning with father, brother and son clades already on the tree that are relevant. He says he needs two derived results before an SNP can be added but we've had a surprise or two of second and third derived results for people in their database that we (project admins) didn't know about.

If we could just get them to fix the DF99 project entry in the haplogroup project find function!!!!

GoldenHind
08-24-2016, 11:10 PM
The contact is Michael Sager - michaels at genebygene dot com.

If we could just get them to fix the DF99 project entry in the haplogroup project find function!!!!

Presumably the FTDNA tree is the same as that which appears on the haplogroup and SNP page. Their R1b tree includes 17 SNPs below L238 and five/six below DF99. My original comment was that none of these appear on the R1b tree diagram you posted a link to above.

The absence of DF99 from the R list of projects is very frustrating. I have contacted them on three occasions to complaint about it. They keep giving me the same response- the engineering department is aware of the problem and working on fixing it. What is really irritating is that appears to prevent making a donation to the project general fund, as the project has to be selected from a drop down box under R, and it doesn't appear there.

TigerMW
08-25-2016, 12:50 AM
Presumably the FTDNA tree is the same as that which appears on the haplogroup and SNP page. Their R1b tree includes 17 SNPs below L238 and five/six below DF99. My original comment was that none of these appear on the R1b tree diagram you posted ...
It shouldn't be different. I may have made a mistake of some type.I will post back when I check.

razyn
08-25-2016, 04:02 AM
What is really irritating is that appears to prevent making a donation to the project general fund, as the project has to be selected from a drop down box under R, and it doesn't appear there.
I haven't had occasion (or time, really) to try lately, but in the not too distant past I have found that an email directly to Janine Cloud tends to get these issues addressed. Specifically, ones like this that prevent or inhibit potential customers from sending them money. I don't attribute that to corporate greed; FTDNA is a business, and needs to make money to meet payroll, buy million-plus-dollar sequencing equipment, etc.

TigerMW
08-25-2016, 01:20 PM
You'll see why in the next post, but this is a good time post the subgroupings used on the R1b project's Y classic and colorized display screen reports. Here are the major subgroupings.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

A. M343+ P312- U106- Subclades (R1b-M343,M73,V88,Z2103)
B. Z2103+ Subclades (R1b-M343>L278/P25>L389>P297>M269>L23>Z2103)
L. L51+ P312- U106- Subclades (R1b-M343>L278/P25>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51)
P. P312+ DF27- L21- U152- Subclades (R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312 & DF19,DF99,L238)
Pd. DF27+ Subclades (R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF27)
Pl. L21+ Subclades (R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>L21)
Pu. U152+ Subclades (R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>U152)
U. U106+ Subclades (R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>U106)
Uat111. Unable to confirm Subclade; limited SNP testing
Uat67. Unable to confirm Subclade; limited SNP testing
Uneed67. Unable to confirm Subclade, limited STR/SNP testing
X. Unsure of haplogroup
XX. Not R1b (M343-)

Anyone who is in a project subgrouping "U. U106+" or above should have been moved to the respective major subgroup haplogroup project by me. Those projects are listed on the "About" profile project web page.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about

I also now list these in the About/Results page in the project under Project Detail Reports. This brings about an idea. I will request that FTDNA put a web anchor (tag) for each subgroup on their Y classic and Y colorized screens. That way, we could list URLs to jump right to that subgroup.

TigerMW
08-25-2016, 01:34 PM
Presumably the FTDNA tree is the same as that which appears on the haplogroup and SNP page. Their R1b tree includes 17 SNPs below L238 and five/six below DF99. My original comment was that none of these appear on the R1b tree diagram you posted ...


It shouldn't be different. I may have made a mistake of some type.I will post back when I check.

I don't see what you are seeing. I just checked the public versions at
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf

Each of these has distinct rows (branches) on the two documents above.

L238
Z2245
Z2247
A6289
CTS11638
BY781
BY2408
A6292
BY4661
BY3452
BY4664
BY3451
Y11662
BY4659
BY3516
A8150
BY4675
BY4667

DF99
FGC847
BY3447
FGC16982
S16136
FGC16979

There may be and probably are phylogenetic equivalents behind these but these are basically the "R-" haplogroup labels that FTDNA lists on their haplotree for R1b.

I found where L238 and DF99 started by doing a "Ctrl-F" (Find) on each "L238" and "DF99".

I tried to make it easier to find stuff, but if you have suggestions I'll see what I can do. I inserted the first column of both the spreadsheet and its derived PDF file. I created the whole thing for the R1b project so I used their subgroupings, which are major subclade project related, to create the first column. DF19, DF99 and L238 are put in with the R1b-P312 label so that may have thrown you off.

R1b-Basal
R1b-P312
R1b-P312>DF27
R1b-P312>L21
R1b-P312>U152
R1b-U106

These essentially represent the major subclade (of R1b) haplogroup projects.

TigerMW
08-25-2016, 05:49 PM
Sorry for the multiple posts, but a lot of activity this morning. I've exchanged emails with Reich, Haak and Lazaridis.

I've just updated these two files. Now there are 2,218 distinct branches on the Haplotree.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf

I showed Reich, Haak and Lazaridis the project and these trees of consumer testing. I contacted them to make sure it was okay to use their charts from the 2015 "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" paper.

They were very nice, responsive and cooperative. I think I like Haak's style. I told them my opinion on the signficance of the expansion from L11/P311 on down. Haak left me hanging. He must like certain words as he said something "massive" is "unfolding" with an emphasis on the word "massive". He didn't say "was." He referred to is so it must be more work to be revealed. I'm sure that's no secret but it's "massive", I guess that's like "huu...ge".:)

Heber
08-25-2016, 06:35 PM
Sorry for the multiple posts, but a lot of activity this morning. I've exchanged emails with Reich, Haak and Lazaridis.

I've just updated these two files. Now there are 2,118 distinct branches on the Haplotree.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf

I showed Reich, Haak and Lazaridis the project and these trees of consumer testing. I contacted them to make sure it was okay to use their charts from the 2015 "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" paper.

They were very nice, responsive and cooperative. I think I like Haak's style. I told them my opinion on the signficance of the expansion from L11/P311 on down. Haak left me hanging. He must like certain words as he said something "massive" is "unfolding" with an emphasis on the word "massive". He didn't say "was." He referred to is so it must be more work to be revealed. I'm sure that's no secret but it's "massive", I guess that's like "huu...ge".:)

Haak, Allentoft, Lazaridis and Reich.
We owe a lot to these gentlemen.

11173
11174

rms2
08-27-2016, 12:56 AM
Sorry for the multiple posts, but a lot of activity this morning. I've exchanged emails with Reich, Haak and Lazaridis.

I've just updated these two files. Now there are 2,118 distinct branches on the Haplotree.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf

I showed Reich, Haak and Lazaridis the project and these trees of consumer testing. I contacted them to make sure it was okay to use their charts from the 2015 "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe" paper.

They were very nice, responsive and cooperative. I think I like Haak's style. I told them my opinion on the signficance of the expansion from L11/P311 on down. Haak left me hanging. He must like certain words as he said something "massive" is "unfolding" with an emphasis on the word "massive". He didn't say "was." He referred to is so it must be more work to be revealed. I'm sure that's no secret but it's "massive", I guess that's like "huu...ge".:)

What did you tell him your view of the expansion of L11/P311 on down was? I'm just trying to figure out what Haak was hinting at.

TigerMW
08-30-2016, 04:56 PM
What did you tell him your view of the expansion of L11/P311 on down was? I'm just trying to figure out what Haak was hinting at.

Sorry, I'm slow on responding. I just pointed them to several tree charts and made the comment along the lines of... I don't know if the P311 MRCA knew what his scouts or seeing in Europe but the first few generations of descendants certainly has a huge impact. He responded with his "massive" remark that I understood meant more was to come.

I was just trying to get him to look downstream to U106, L21, U152, DF27.

TigerMW
08-30-2016, 04:58 PM
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf

I updated these this morning.

rms2
08-30-2016, 09:39 PM
Sorry, I'm slow on responding. I just pointed them to several tree charts and made the comment along the lines of... I don't know if the P311 MRCA knew what his scouts or seeing in Europe but the first few generations of descendants certainly has a huge impact. He responded with his "massive" remark that I understood meant more was to come.

I was just trying to get him to look downstream to U106, L21, U152, DF27.

Okay. I'm thinking he was talking in terms of Yamnaya, but we'll see.

TigerMW
08-30-2016, 10:02 PM
Okay. I'm thinking he was talking in terms of Yamnaya, but we'll see.
I agree but would add I think he is looking at Corded Ware and Bell Beaker as part of this. Maybe we'll have a surprise out of the Balkans or something. In any case, I'd like to have them start thinking about he branching below R1b-P311. Since there are localized regional attributes to these early branching they could be great indicators of what happened as we get into Central and Western Europe.

rms2
08-30-2016, 10:05 PM
I agree but would add I think he is looking at Corded Ware and Bell Beaker as part of this. Maybe we'll have a surprise out of the Balkans or something. In any case, I'd like to have them start thinking about he branching below R1b-P311. Since there a localized regional attributes to these early branching they could be great indicators of what happened as we get into Central and Western Europe.

L51/L11 in Bell Beaker wouldn't be big news, so I don't think he was talking about that. Probably he meant Yamnaya, but maybe he meant Corded Ware. Either one would be cool. I'm betting he was talking about Yamnaya, and evidently whatever they found, they found a lot of it.

TigerMW
09-01-2016, 12:48 AM
I've got the About web pages of the R1b project spiffed up a bit. Please take a tour around.

Maciamo agreed to let me post his frequency maps so I have them with links to scientific studies. I also have a link to the detailed FTDNA version of the haplotree along with a big picture Descendants tree.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

I've got some basics Y DNA testing guidance on the FAQ page.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/FAQ

can't_lurk_no_mo'
09-01-2016, 01:35 AM
Which date do you prefer more for R1b-M343's origin, 30,000 as with the R1b Descendant Tree or 12,000 years as Tibor Fehér has it?

TigerMW
09-01-2016, 01:54 AM
Which date do you prefer more for R1b-M343's origin, 30,000 as with the R1b Descendant Tree or 12,000 years as Tibor Fehér has it?
Tibor's work is from 2011 if I remember correctly and it needs to be rewritten, but I've deferred on that because the amount of speculation involved.

The Big Picture/Tip of the Iceberg Descendants tree on the About and About/Results has a couple early branching TMRCA dates in the gray box on he left. I used the YFull estimates because they are SNP counting based and have a rational, published method.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Chart-pdf

I've got the YFull R1b TMRCA at 18500 BC. It's just an estimate, though.

I don't use the formation dates. They are kind of useless.

TigerMW
09-01-2016, 05:31 PM
... I've just updated these two files. Now there are 2,218 distinct branches on the Haplotree.

http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Tree-Outline-pdf
...

I updated these a few minutes ago. We are at 2,272 distinct branches now. If you ever forget the links you can find them on the R1b project About/Results web page.

I finally got my little ZW02 split off as a separate branch under ZW04 but there phylogenetic equivalents and branching upstream I need to work.

On a side note, we are seeing a rush of R1b folks joining the project. We just blew by 11,200 members. I still have my web page up (not reloaded) from this morning and we were at 11,130. As of right now we are at 11,217.

TigerMW
09-01-2016, 09:38 PM
...
On a side note, we are seeing a rush of R1b folks joining the project. We just blew by 11,200 members. I still have my web page up (not reloaded) from this morning and we were at 11,130. As of right now we are at 11,217.
I'm not sure if I'm reading the statistics right, but regardless, we've had a tremendous day as far as new members into the project... about 200 new members. We are 11,316 right now. That's good for matching.

This is good time to invite other R1b folks, particularly those with 67 or 111 STRs, as I'm going to update the R1b_Haplotypes file in the next few days. What I've found out is that some of the project admins are looking for help because FTDNA has tightened the matching threshold on their matching screens from the GAP (project admin) tool. If you are in this project it doesn't matter. Our R1b_Haplotypes file can calculate the GDs at 67 or at 111 from anyone in the project to everyone else in the project. Here is a brief overview of what the tool does.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-Haplotypes-Help

Richard S, more work for Gail R and I, but now for you too... a lot of new L21+ folks.

P.S. I'm not a fan of dedicated (isolated GD) usage. I think it is a tool that can be very helpful in combination with STR signature patterns. Of course, this is to help with SNP guidance because validation is still needed and STRs can be useful out beyond the terminal SNPs.

TigerMW
09-03-2016, 09:55 PM
This has been a tremendous couple of days for the R1b project. Maybe it is has been record with several hundred people joining.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

The count right now is 11,816 project members.

I am very proud of R1b folks and their commitment to Y DNA testing and genetic genealogy.

As of yesterday, we had 2,288 distinct branches on the FTDNA haplotree. There are many to go, much work to be done.

TigerMW
09-04-2016, 01:42 AM
This has been a tremendous couple of days for the R1b project. Maybe it is has been record with several hundred people joining.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

The count right now is 11,816 project members.

I am very proud of R1b folks and their commitment to Y DNA testing and genetic genealogy.

As of yesterday, we had 2,288 distinct branches on the FTDNA haplotree. There are many to go, much work to be done.

I've just posted the update to the R1b_Haplotypes file.

We have 8,065 haplotypes with 67 or more STRs. 67 STRs is clearly the standard haplotype length now for R1b.

There are 4,523 with 111 STRs. 1,988 of those have done Big Y so I call them "GOLD" haplotypes, the best kind to compare with.

For those who have SNP tested deeply enough to be grouped by major haplogroup, here are the counts.

331 R1b-Basal
294 R1b-P312 undifferentiated or DF19, DF99, L238
591 R1b-P312>DF27
2,064 R1b-P312>L21
404 R1b-P312>U152
1,091 R1b-U106

The R1b_Haplotypes file is not restricted by FTDNA matching display thresholds. You can select any one individual in the file or select the modal for the file and calculate and sort the GD to everyone else in the file.

Here is a graphic/trend line of project joines. It's amazing that so many folks are aware and cared enough to join.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-project-joins.pdf

TigerMW
11-08-2016, 09:47 PM
The R1b project is up to 12,455 members now.

There are 4,747 111 STR haplotypes in the file.

2,038 are gold haplotypes that have Big Y results too.

There are 8,443 67 STR haplotypes in the R1b project/file.

Dewsloth
11-08-2016, 09:50 PM
Any hints on a November Big Y sale? I've been waiting since June...

TigerMW
11-08-2016, 09:59 PM
Any hints on a November Big Y sale? I've been waiting since June...
I don't know. I assume so because they have done so historically but I don't any more on their pricing then anybody else.

R.Rocca
11-09-2016, 12:16 AM
I don't know. I assume so because they have done so historically but I don't any more on their pricing then anybody else.

I thought I read something about a possible replacement product... or maybe I dreamt it???

TigerMW
11-09-2016, 12:33 AM
I thought I read something about a possible replacement product... or maybe I dreamt it???
I don't know. What have you read?

FTDNA generally has more of a product upgrade strategy rather than a rip and replace strategy.

This is part of the point (#3) I'm trying to make on the R1b project FAQ page.

"Why DNA testing at a full platform genetic genealogy company?"
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/faq#/FFTDNA
"3. Integrated and backward-compatible data management, which is the foundation of a large matching database. Old Deep Clade, Advanced Test SNPs, SNP Packs and Big Y results are all used for haplotree and haplogroup assignment and project display."

I was told a year ago that current Big Y customers will receive benefits from whatever it is they are doing.

That being said, I would definitely not buy Big Y right before their Houston conference. They usually run specials of some type and talk about what they are doing. There is no discount on Big Y today so waiting is a good idea right now.

I will tip off that I know they have several major projects kicking off. This is why I told everyone to get their haplotree updates to FTDNA submitted. We've now got 1,471 distinct branches for L21 on their haplotree.

ArmandoR1b
11-09-2016, 12:39 AM
The last BigY sale that I found was April 25th on National DNA Day for $460. Before that the sale was between October 7 and October 11 of 2015 for $100 off and before that they had mystery rewards for the 2014 Winter Holidays.

TigerMW
11-09-2016, 12:44 AM
The last BigY sale that I found was April 25th on National DNA Day for $460. Before that the sale was between October 7 and October 11 of 2015 for $100 off and before that they had mystery rewards for the 2014 Winter Holidays.
Ironically, Greenspan told me they might raise their price on Big Y. That's craziness by the way. That was about a year ago though when he told me that and that was on the heels of an interview where he talked too much about futures and a few competitive advocates jumped on it.

I have confronted them with all of this talk about the high cost of "reagents" or whatever. I think some people will be surprised on this.

R.Rocca
11-09-2016, 12:53 AM
I don't know. What have you read?

FTDNA generally has more of a product upgrade strategy rather than a rip and replace strategy.

Even if they expand the coverage, make the data backward compatible and call it something like Big-Y 2.0, it would still be a new product.

Either way, I thought there was some speculation about a new announcement, but can't remember the specifics.

TigerMW
11-09-2016, 01:13 AM
Even if they expand the coverage, make the data backward compatible and call it something like Big-Y 2.0, it would still be a new product.....
I'm in the I/T business so I have different appreciation for the importance of a true database and maintaining compatibility, protecting (bringing forward) customer investments, etc.
Modular product strategies and upgrade paths have been essential to the software marketplace. I don't think this is that much different although I doubt if FTDNA will provide financial (only) upgrade paths. That's a bit of a luxury for a vendor.

R.Rocca
11-09-2016, 01:27 AM
I'm in the I/T business so I have different appreciation for the importance of a true database and maintaining compatibility, protecting (bringing forward) customer investments, etc.
Modular product strategies and upgrade paths have been essential to the software marketplace. I don't think this is that much different although I doubt if FTDNA will provide financial (only) upgrade paths. That's a bit of a luxury for a vendor.

What's the difference between Y12 or Y111... more columns in a database. And yet, FTDNA markets it as different products. So if there is a Big-Y-2.0, they will market it as a new product regardless of what you or I define a new product, and in the minds of consumers, they will see it as such. Unless of course they offer an upgrade only to existing Big-Y users, which I doubt there is a big market for that.

Cofgene
11-09-2016, 01:54 AM
FTDNA has a basic problem in that they never really understood the sequence analysis/annotation pipeline technology that they acquired. They haven't made some needed tweaks in the analysis parameters that produce the VCF's and the horrific list of items going into the VCF files. Just like the FamilyFinder product where they have included meaningless segments in the results the Big-Y now has such a large base of users with garbage results that it will have a hard time explaining why the list of SNPs has drastically changed.

FTDNA needs to make a technology transition decision as it relates to Big-Y. They are limited in coverage due to the way Big-Y was designed and implemented. In todays commodity sequencing market FTDNA needs to come up with a plan which allows them to use large sequencing services to get the raw data and FTDNA adds value by doing a better job of extracting out information. The assemblies coming from these farms are quick and dirty. FTDNA can reprocess them and provide a much higher quality VCF/BED at a competitive price. FTDNA also needs to stick their toes into the whole genome genealogy market at a price point maybe 10% higher than FGC.

ArmandoR1b
11-09-2016, 02:06 AM
Ironically, Greenspan told me they might raise their price on Big Y. That's craziness by the way. That was about a year ago though when he told me that and that was on the heels of an interview where he talked too much about futures and a few competitive advocates jumped on it.

I have confronted them with all of this talk about the high cost of "reagents" or whatever. I think some people will be surprised on this.

If there is no well known competition, FullGenomes is only known about by a small amount of the population, then they will be able to get away with a price increase which would make the SNP packs even more affordable but if LivingDNA has decent Y-DNA SNP coverage then people can test there first then get additional testing with FTDNA SNP packs or Yseq testing. Does WGS have the same cause as NGS with getting the price down? If not, I hope it does drop a lot really soon.

AntG
11-09-2016, 08:38 AM
If there is no well known competition, FullGenomes is only known about by a small amount of the population, then they will be able to get away with a price increase which would make the SNP packs even more affordable but if LivingDNA has decent Y-DNA SNP coverage then people can test there first then get additional testing with FTDNA SNP packs or Yseq testing. Does WGS have the same cause as NGS with getting the price down? If not, I hope it does drop a lot really soon.

This may mean more to you than I but LivingDNA told me this in October (on asking if they would pick up R-L226): "... the SNP is very deep down and not in our current version. We cover: R1b1a2a1a = 24 markers, R1b1a2a1a2 = 2 Markers... it will be something we flag to add for the future versions".

ArmandoR1b
11-09-2016, 01:17 PM
This may mean more to you than I but LivingDNA told me this in October (on asking if they would pick up R-L226): "... the SNP is very deep down and not in our current version. We cover: R1B1a2a1a2 = 24 markers, R1b1a2a1a2 = 2 Markers... it will be something we flag to add for the future versions".

R1b1a2a1a2 is the 2015 longhand name for P312. They used the same longhand name for 24 marker and for 2 markers though. Which is it? I wonder if they mean that there are 24 SNPs downstream from P312 that they included. If so and if the test results are more reliable than Geno 2.0 then the test should be as good, and maybe even better, than the M343 Backbone SNP pack as far as the number of SNPs tested. If it is better then it will remove the need for one or two SNP packs from FTDNA. If it removes the need for 2 FTDNA SNP packs then it will be a cheaper alternative down to the SNP tested by FTDNA with the added benefit of the autosomal test and mtDNA test.

TigerMW
11-09-2016, 01:55 PM
What's the difference between Y12 or Y111... more columns in a database. And yet, FTDNA markets it as different products. So if there is a Big-Y-2.0, they will market it as a new product regardless of what you or I define a new product, and in the minds of consumers, they will see it as such. Unless of course they offer an upgrade only to existing Big-Y users, which I doubt there is a big market for that.
In the industries I work new versions are considered new products. I'm not in disagreement with you there.

Yes, for STR panels Y12 is a different product than Y111. The point I was trying to make is that buying Y12 stays with the customer and is not a lost investment. There is a upgrade product, Y12>Y111. It costs less than buying Y12 and Y111 That's a modular, upgradable product line. It would be a great thing if FTDNA would have a Big Y 1.0>2.0 upgrade as we see in other industries. I don't think that can happen but we are likely to see Big Y 1.0 customers receive new benefits when 2.0 comes out..... and retain integration with the same SNP results database that includes years of various kinds of SNP test results.

R.Rocca
11-09-2016, 02:32 PM
In the industries I work new versions are considered new products. I'm not in disagreement with you there.

Yes, for STR panels Y12 is a different product than Y111. The point I was trying to make is that buying Y12 stays with the customer and is not a lost investment. There is a upgrade product, Y12>Y111. It costs less than buying Y12 and Y111 That's a modular, upgradable product line. It would be a great thing if FTDNA would have a Big Y 1.0>2.0 upgrade as we see in other industries. I don't think that can happen but we are likely to see Big Y 1.0 customers receive new benefits when 2.0 comes out..... and retain integration with the same SNP results database that includes years of various kinds of SNP test results.

If the next version of Big-Y does a complete Y-chromosome scan of the areas that can currently be scanned, I'll buy it. This is going to do 0% for my SNP list, since I already did FGC, but the benefit of being able to match against the large FTDNA database has a definite value. That said, they really need to update their matching algorithms, given that very small groups like mine (only a half-dozen Big-Y results) get crushed by the weight of matching SNPs that really have more to do with the quality of the reads and upstream SNPs than matching at the lowest level.

AntG
11-09-2016, 03:58 PM
R1b1a2a1a2 is the 2015 longhand name for P312. They used the same longhand name for 24 marker and for 2 markers though. Which is it? I wonder if they mean that there are 24 SNPs downstream from P312 that they included. If so and if the test results are more reliable than Geno 2.0 then the test should be as good, and maybe even better, than the M343 Backbone SNP pack as far as the number of SNPs tested. If it is better then it will remove the need for one or two SNP packs from FTDNA. If it removes the need for 2 FTDNA SNP packs then it will be a cheaper alternative down to the SNP tested by FTDNA with the added benefit of the autosomal test and mtDNA test.

Sorry, that was MY error, not theirs. I've just gone back to the message... "... the SNP is very deep down and not in our current version. We cover: R1b1a2a1a = 24 markers, R1b1a2a1a2 = 2 Markers... it will be something we flag to add for the future versions"
I'll go back to my original post and correct.

TigerMW
11-09-2016, 08:46 PM
... That said, they really need to update their matching algorithms, given that very small groups like mine (only a half-dozen Big-Y results) get crushed by the weight of matching SNPs that really have more to do with the quality of the reads and upstream SNPs than matching at the lowest level.
Agreed. The SNP matching algorithm is hardly an algorithm at all and is it is not very relevant since it is does not prioritize matching by youthfulness of the SNPs.

However, it can still be useful. It is a good way to find new Big Y results outside of those who are members of your project. You can also select on SNPs (derived) to search for, but you end up doing a couple of searches in this process. Razyn set me on to this approach (which is not intuitive.) I've recommended user interface updates to them on this but I think they have bigger fish to fry.

I've had two or three cases inside of L21 where a deceased or otherwise inaccessible Big Y tester created a new branch and we couldn't get their VCF/BED nor BAM data. I used the Big Y matching to identify the novel SNPs and submit them. That means some SNPs in the block were probably missed as "rejected" but we were able to get the branch in anyway.

R.Rocca
11-09-2016, 08:56 PM
Agreed. The SNP matching algorithm is hardly an algorithm at all and is it is not very relevant since it is does no prioritize matching by youthfulness of the SNPs.

However, it can still be useful. It is a good way to find new Big Y results outside of those who are members of your project. You can also select on SNPs (derived) to search for, but you end up doing a couple of searches in this process. Razyn set me on to this approach. I've recommended updates to them on this but I think they have bigger fish to fry.

I've had two or three cases inside of L21 where a deceased or otherwise inaccessible Big Y tester created a new branch and we couldn't get their VCF/BED nor BAM data. I used the Big Y matching to identify the novel SNPs and submit them. That means some SNPs in the block were probably missed as "rejected" but we were able to get the branch in anyway.

Can you point me to the approach?

TigerMW
11-10-2016, 07:13 PM
Can you point me to the approach?
I should document it and post it somewhere or put it on the R1b about pages. I don't do this except for specific situations like a deceased or inaccessible Big Y tester or my own personal stuff. It has to do with searching for least number of people with shared novel variants, then re-searching on those variants.

Most people will be able to do this more easily as there is a switch over to more "known" variants. This is partially why I'm encouraging folks to get their branches, including all phylogenetic equivalents, submitted to their haplotree maintenance guy. He'll name variants if they are not named but I think will allow for a rebuilding of their "known" list.

I now download the FTDNA haplotree for R1b once a week. In L21 we have 5,040 SNPs (all named of course) on their haplotree. A lot of folks have done a great job of submitting updates to Sager at FTDNA.

BTW, a side benefit of submitting SNPs for haplotree updates is that FTDNA checks the BAM file results and occasionally finds unidentified (to us) Big Y testers, additional branching or alters branching that hobbyists draft from VCF/BED file types of analysis. Of course they also check against the entire SNP results database. They can do this surprisingly quickly.

FrankAlbion
12-19-2016, 02:12 AM
The original post mentions reviewing The "Results" tab from the About pages which shows how to find the key reports and has descriptions and links to a variety of sources including scientific papers about R1b.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

A recent addition to this section is a very good updated presentation about Genetics and the Peopling of Europe. It's dated November 12, 2016:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/Genetics_and_Peopling_of_Europe_FTDNA_conf_by_Hamm er_2016.pdf
To me, this is a very important contribution to our research and searches.

TigerMW
04-19-2017, 04:26 PM
We are now up to 3,319 branches of R1b on the FTDNA haplotree.

I download these into a file so you can view them without signing into myFTDNA.

http://rebrand.ly/R1b-Outline-Tree-pdf

A big picture descendant tree is available on the project About overview page. This is it in a .PDF format.

http://rebrand.ly/R1b-Descendant-Tree-pdf

There are over 13,700 people in the R1b project.... I've got work to do.

MitchellSince1893
04-19-2017, 04:53 PM
We are now up to 3,319 branches of R1b on the FTDNA haplotree.

I download these into a file so you can view them without signing into myFTDNA.

http://rebrand.ly/R1b-Outline-Tree-pdf

A big picture descendant tree is available on the project About overview page. This is it in a .PDF format.

http://rebrand.ly/R1b-Descendant-Tree-pdf

There are over 13,700 people in the R1b project.... I've got work to do.

When do you antipate uploading your updated r1b 67 and 111 marker spreadsheet to the R1b yahoo group?

TigerMW
04-19-2017, 05:05 PM
When do you antipate uploading your updated r1b 67 and 111 marker spreadsheet to the R1b yahoo group?
I anticipated last week, but obviously didn't get there. I had trouble paging through the project Y SNP report and submitted an error report to FTDNA.

swid
04-19-2017, 06:31 PM
I should probably log an FTDNA ticket instead of just complaining elsewhere on the Internet about it, but...viewing STR results in the R1b Project has lurched into the "all but impossible" category in the past month or two. Given that there's near-daily questions of "I got my marker results back...what do they mean?" or "Which SNP test should I get?", this makes it very hard to answer those type of questions.

My workaround of searching "site:familytreedna.com <kit number>" also doesn't work well anymore, as it only works from people who change their privacy settings to allow people outside of their project to see their results.

TigerMW
08-01-2017, 06:17 PM
This is a good opportunity for R1b people to move to a "gold" haplotype. I call everything in the R1b project with Big Y plus 111 STRs a gold haplotype. That puts you in excellent position in the big Y STR matching database as well produces your lineage of SNPs into modern times.

This is the notice I have for upgrade pricing:

Big Y $395
37-67 STRs $79
37-111 STRs $168
67-111 STRs $99

If you are at 67, this really a good time to go to 111. There has to be over ten thousand R1b 111 STR hapotypes in the FTDNA matching database now. This helps others find you, either now or in the future. It is also a great way to efficiently share your terminal (hopefully youthful) haplogroup label from Big Y testing.

TigerMW
08-26-2017, 04:43 AM
This is a good opportunity for R1b people to move to a "gold" haplotype. I call everything in the R1b project with Big Y plus 111 STRs a gold haplotype. That puts you in excellent position in the big Y STR matching database as well produces your lineage of SNPs into modern times.

This is the notice I have for upgrade pricing:

Big Y $395
37-67 STRs $79
37-111 STRs $168
67-111 STRs $99

If you are at 67, this really a good time to go to 111. There has to be over ten thousand R1b 111 STR hapotypes in the FTDNA matching database now. This helps others find you, either now or in the future. It is also a great way to efficiently share your terminal (hopefully youthful) haplogroup label from Big Y testing.
There are quite a few people upgrading to 111 STRs but I have to say I continue to be amazed at Biig Y. I keep thinking it will slow down but people just can't seem to get enough of it. I think it is accelerating, in some subclades for sure. It must be what you hear from time to time from market analysts - it's reached critical mass.

TigerMW
08-28-2017, 01:32 AM
This is a good opportunity for R1b people to move to a "gold" haplotype. I call everything in the R1b project with Big Y plus 111 STRs a gold haplotype. That puts you in excellent position in the big Y STR matching database as well produces your lineage of SNPs into modern times.

This is the notice I have for upgrade pricing:

Big Y $395
37-67 STRs $79
37-111 STRs $168
67-111 STRs $99

If you are at 67, this really a good time to go to 111. There has to be over ten thousand R1b 111 STR hapotypes in the FTDNA matching database now. This helps others find you, either now or in the future. It is also a great way to efficiently share your terminal (hopefully youthful) haplogroup label from Big Y testing.

I have been in contact with FTDNA telling them we need more people in R1b to upgrade to at least 67 STRs, and to 111 STRs if possible. They decided to send out a broadcast email inviting R1b people not in the R1b project to the project and provide the sale pricing on the STR upgrades. They did it and I am seeing both:
1) quite a few new members to the R1b project (yikes! - more work)
2) quite a few more STR upgrades.

At the same time, Big Y orders keep rolling in so we are going to see good growth in the depth of the database.

Robert1
08-28-2017, 05:27 AM
Ah, I'm "golden" and didn't even know it!

111 STRs ... Check
Big Y ... Check
Joined R1b projects ... Check
Youthful terminal haplogroup... Check
That All Important Y111&Big Y match ... Check!

I know luck was involved but maxing out Y-DNA testing has been worth every dime!
(Today's better pricing make it a bargain)

TigerMW
08-28-2017, 06:02 PM
Ah, I'm "golden" and didn't even know it!

111 STRs ... Check
Big Y ... Check
Joined R1b projects ... Check
Youthful terminal haplogroup... Check
That All Important Y111&Big Y match ... Check!

I know luck was involved but maxing out Y-DNA testing has been worth every dime!
(Today's better pricing make it a bargain)

I like Big Y testing more than 111 STRs but I think we (and I have) need both. Shoot, that reminds, I forgot about someone. Y STR upgades don't go on sale as often as Big Y so that is another consideration about the current August sale on STR upgrades and Big Y.

Robert1
08-28-2017, 07:32 PM
I like Big Y testing more than 111 STRs but I think we (and I have) need both. Shoot, that reminds, I forgot about someone. Y STR upgades don't go on sale as often as Big Y so that is another consideration about the current August sale on STR upgrades and Big Y.

Yes, the 67-111 STR upgrade for $99 is about $60 less than I paid a few months ago! This August sale was the best I've seen from FTDNA, every price is lower than what I paid. But not complaining at all, more sales mean more new matches for the rest of us. I'm glad to hear the R1b tests keep rolling in!

TigerMW
08-28-2017, 11:10 PM
.... But not complaining at all, more sales mean more new matches for the rest of us. I'm glad to hear the R1b tests keep rolling in!
Bingo! The more people who are upgrading, the more people who will see benefits, the more people will upgrade. I think we've reached critical mass. The key to genetic genealogy is comparisons among potentially related people. This is what we really need, more people testing. The future for R1b Y DNA genetic genealogy is quite optimistic.

TigerMW
08-31-2017, 09:09 PM
This appears to be a record month for R1b people getting to 111 STRs and Big Ys. I've answered hundreds of emails the last couple of days on Big Y and Y111 testing. Here is quick summary of things people inquire about and how I respond.

The sales prices end at midnight Houston time.

Big Y helps
1. Discovers your own line of SNPs from the ancient into the genealogical timeframe
2. Places you accurately and precisely on the big Y DNA tree of mankind
3. Better Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor estimates
You can't go wrong with this ($395 sale price)

111 Y STRs can help with
1. More differentiation of branching within a surname and extended family by identification of signature markers
2. Better prioritization of matches including reduction of false matches
3. Better Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor estimates
4. Reduce targeted SNP testing costs (if not doing Big Y)
5. More encouragement for your better matches to test your SNPs (if you did do Big Y)
Get all the STRs you can (Y25-67 $148, Y37-67 $79, Y37-111 $168, Y67-111 $99 sales prices)

To order an upgrade or check what you are eligible for:
1. Log in with your kit # at https://www.familytreedna.com/
2. From your myFTDNA Dashboard click on the blue UPGRADES button in the top of the Y-DNA section
3. Select the upgrade you want. You will see the discount on your SHOPPING CART display where you can place your order or cancel


Bingo! The more people who are upgrading, the more people who will see benefits, the more people will upgrade. I think we've reached critical mass. The key to genetic genealogy is comparisons among potentially related people. This is what we really need, more people testing. The future for R1b Y DNA genetic genealogy is quite optimistic.

TigerMW
09-12-2017, 12:59 PM
We have over 15,000 members in the R1b project now. R1b folks, please encourage your matches at 67 and 111 STRs to join the R1b project.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

We'll encourage them to test deeper and move them to the right major haplogroup projects as they do. The project also produces a spreadsheet of the 67 and 111 STR haplotype members. Think of it as a combined Y Classic and Y Colorized report with GD calculations from any person in the spreadsheet to any other person. You can also you a modal of any selected set of haplotypes in the spreadsheet as the target for GD calculations. The colorization of off-modal markers helps identify STR signature markers.

Detailed Y SNP results are also included on the same spreadsheet so you can filter/select on multiple derived, ancestral SNP combinations.

You can access the spreadsheet and get help for it on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group. More information on the spreadsheet is here.
http://rebrand.ly/R1b-Haplotypes-Help

Today there are 10,200 67 STR haplotypes and over 5,800 111 STR haplotypes in the spreadsheet. This will grow significantly as we had record numbers of upgrade orders for in August. This should have greater impact in the general R1b population as every one of the R1b predicted people in the FTDNA database were asked to consider upgrading.

TigerMW
10-28-2017, 03:12 PM
James Kane posted this earlier on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group.

"NOTE: This will be slowly reposted in the R1b subclade groups here on Yahoo. My apologies to those who will see multiple copies.

FamilyTreeDNA has begun moving Big Y results to the GRCh38 human reference build. This has been accompanied by a large change in the VCF/BED package used by the R1b-affiliated analysts for the purposes of constructing experimental trees and estimating branch ages. In short the ZIP files have gone from a mere 300KB to a current observed range of 11MB up to 28MB.

The increased file sizes exceed the capacity of Yahoo Groups and in some cases email clients for attachments, so this has raised a challenge for the community to overcome. A small working group has come up with a solution to create a tool currently hosted at http://www.haplogroup-r.org/submit_data.php.

The form allows you to share your Big Y, Y Elite, WGS or Chip-based testing results. If the test was performed at a lab other than FTDNA, please use their kit #. Your FTDNA number may be included in the Other Information box, if you do not mind the information to be publicly available. Otherwise, a planned registration system will allow you to create a link between the IDs in private.

For individuals that have uploaded hg19-based results to the Yahoo Group Files section, there is no pressing need to resubmit them to the new warehouse.

Once a file has been submitted, the archive is made available to analysts via a Private FTP repository. The list of people with access includes Mike Walsh, Alex Williamson, Iain McDonald, Jef Treece, James Kane and Nigel McCarthy. This is expected to grow as project administrators request access to their members’ data.

The link at http://www.haplogroup-r.org/shared_data.html provides a complete list of tests available in the repository. The search box on the upper right corner of the table allows you to quickly find tests of interest as the list grows.

If there are questions or issues, either use the contact form or email me directly.

James Kane

NOTE: The submission form does not support BAMs at this time. More thought on how to support secured shared storage that does not require an enterprise IT budget is needed."

TigerMW
03-08-2018, 01:08 AM
R1b-GOLD haplotypes are those with both Big Y and Y111 STRs. Big Y provides you with your own line of SNPs from ancient times all the way into current genealogies. Y111 gives you a very refined match finder and and the opportunity to identify STR signature patterns, which oftentimes indicate true subclades. This can help out in the tips of the leaves of the tree as well with guidance on SNP testing if Big Y is not accessible budget-wise.

R1b-GOLD_Haplotypes.xlsm - MS Office Excel (spreadsheet) macro enabled

Contents of the spreadsheet include All R1b Y111 haplotypes from the R1b All Subclades Master Project and Gateway, regardless of SNP testing. In addition Y111 haplotypes with Big Y (GOLD haplotypes) are included and marked. This combines the date from the Y Colorized and Y SNP FTDNA project report displays.

Big Y kits are colored with gold haplotype labels. I had to mark these in a separate process so there may be some of you who have taken Big Y that I've missed. Reply here if you are not properly marked in gold as Big Y.

Genetic Distances (GD) can be calculated with any one kit being set as the target of GD=0 by marking an "X" as the yellow target haplotype column. The GDs to all other haplotypes in the file and the base haplotype or any selected set of haplotypes. This gives you the ability to look for long distance matches or ancient clade mates beyond the FTDNA matching thresholds.

The Excel autofiltering (selection on the column heading drop down arrows) is extremely powerful. You can select on an specific SNP result, such as "M222+" or a combination of "DF49+" and "M222-". You can select on country, haplogroup or any set of specific STR values.

Since this spreadsheet is colorized to highlight STR values above or below the R1b-L151 modal haplotype you can look for interesting STR signatures.

Sorting by ID (kit number), R1b project subgroup, haplogroup, country and Genetic Distance (GD) is supported by clicking on the macro buttons.

A summary of STR alleles (values) and their distribution is at the bottom of the spreadsheet. The summary adjusts for whatever selections you have autofiltered to or for the whole spreadsheet if no column headings are filtered.

In order to provide to support slightly more security I'm only posting the link to the R1b-GOLD_Haplotypes file in the R1b project activity feed. You have to log in with your kit number to see this.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/activity-feed

There are likely to be some errors so please reply on the R1b-YDNA yahoo group (which supports project data) with corrections, etc. My email in-box is chronically full so posting here is a better way and we'll get more heads thinking on any one topic. If an R1b-er is Y111 and wants to be in the spreadsheet please ask them to join the project.

TigerMW
03-08-2018, 10:35 PM
The FTDNA haplotree is now up to 4,980 distinct branches represented by several times that number of SNPs. I don't try to count all of the SNPs on the R1b tree because there is no easy way to download them (that I know of). To give you a feel, the L21 tree now has over 10,000 SNPs so R1b must have 20,000 to 30,000.

The FTDNA haplotree is available from your myFTDNA account by clicking on "Haplotree & SNPs"

A PDF view of this tree with lead SNPs only is at our project About/Results web page under "Project Detail Reports" by clicking on the "R1b Haplotree in outline format" link.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

We are closing in on 5000 branches! I remember when the total SNP testing package for R1b was M343, M269, P312, M222 and P66, right?

dtvmcdonald
03-12-2018, 06:02 PM
... I don't try to count all of the SNPs on the R1b tree because there is no easy way to download them (that I know of).


Actually there is, using the Chrome developer tools. I have a computer program
that converts the tree to a spreadsheet. I can send the info to you.

Well, I can tell you how to do it. I tried to get you the number, but FTDNA won't log me in!

[email protected]

edit: I got it. There are 6184 lines in the R tree. There are 4265 non-active SNPs.
There are 32843 SNPs listed on the tree including "more". Spreadsheet available.

TigerMW
03-12-2018, 06:29 PM
Actually there is, using the Chrome developer tools. I have a computer program
that converts the tree to a spreadsheet. I can send the info to you.

Well, I can tell you how to do it. I tried to get you the number, but FTDNA won't log me in!

[email protected]

edit: I got it. There are 6184 lines in the R tree. There are 4265 non-active SNPs.
There are 32843 SNPs listed on the tree including "more". Spreadsheet available.

Please let me know how to do it. This would save me a lot of time. I don't check all of R1b but I do check all phylogenetic equivalents in L21. It's painful.

32 thousand... geees. It's hard to believe I was so excited to know I was M269+ P312+ (newly found S116) at one point in time.

Mehmet
03-15-2018, 02:38 AM
hi. I am Chinese who have just tested Y Chromosome and get the result in YFULL which is R1b-Z2106-CTS8966 with ID:ELT50011

Could I join this project?

razyn
03-15-2018, 02:55 AM
I don't know what company has tested some of the new samples at YFull, with kit numbers such as ELTxxx. If your results are not transferable to FTDNA, which hosts "the big R1b project," I believe you could not join it, or be visible in it.

But YFull itself has groups, and I believe you can join the one listed as Group: R1b-M343 (xP312 xU106). Many FTDNA customers with BigY tests are in that group.

TigerMW
03-15-2018, 03:01 AM
Mehmet, if you have any Y DNA test at FTDNA you can join the R1b project.
Regardless of testing, you are welcome to the R1b-YDNA Yahoo discussion group.

Mehmet
03-19-2018, 07:04 AM
hi razyn, Mikewww,

thanks, I joined the R1b-M343 group in YFull and some groups on Facebook.

TigerMW
03-19-2018, 07:05 PM
hi razyn, Mikewww,

thanks, I joined the R1b-M343 group in YFull and some groups on Facebook.

Mehmet, I can not keep up with personal/individual requests by individual emails or every forum.

This is why the R1b Project has the R1b-YDNA yahoo group. That is the place to review specific R1b project data and individual kits with the R1b project administrators.. AND many other project administrators who join in. That is key. More heads are better than one.

We are all volunteers.

TigerMW
12-19-2018, 11:05 PM
The R1b All Subclades FTDNA Project now has over 20,500 members.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/background

I am trying to clean up the web pages. Here are a couple of the key steps to take on the welcome page that are important for sharing information. I'm trying to get folks trained on this.


3. Update your FTDNA account by going to MANAGE PERSONAL INFORMATION. This is critical to finding potential relatives and origins. We must share data to be successful. I recommend using the tested person's last name as the Contact Last Name. If the kit owner is different than the tester, please use the First Name field to include "c/o" and the kit owner's full name (for mailing purposes).

3A. Go to PRIVACY & SHARING to check the below settings or you will not be a part of analyses.
Matching Preferences/Y DNA - All Levels
Origin Sharing - Opt in to Sharing
Project Sharing/Group Profile - Opt in to Sharing

3B. Go to PROJECT PREFERENCES to check Advanced or Limited Access for the project administrators. We can't help you if not granted at least Limited Access. Don't forget to check the box for future administrators too.

3C. Go to GENEALOGY to update your Paternal Ancestor. Enter only information that is not speculative. Example: “James Welch, b.c.1812, Co. Kilkenny, Ireland”. Enter your COUNTRY or leave blank if you don't know. Do not enter "U.S." unless truly of Native American paternal lineage. Please try to be specific if UNITED KINGDOM; pick either ENGLAND, IRELAND, NORTHERN IRELAND, SCOTLAND or WALES. Use current country borders so use NORTHERN IRELAND if accurate even if the ancestor predated its formation. Update the map location.

3D. Go to ACCOUNT INFORMATION to check your Contact information. Please add a backup email address and a beneficiary. Talk to your beneficiary.

TigerMW
01-24-2019, 02:02 PM
I've updated the R1b "Tip of the Iceberg" Descendant Tree. It now has TMRCA estimates and Ancient DNA finds for our ancient large branches. You can see this tree better by going to the location where I store it.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results#/RTREE

You can download or open the .PDF version for clear zoom in/out panning of the chart.

The full haplotree can be seen at FTDNA's public Y tree web page.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

It says there are 7,926 branches downstream of R1b (R-M343) on the haplotree. You can see your place in the branching by clicking on the "Haplotree & SNPs" button your kit's FTDNA dashboard.

TigerMW
04-10-2019, 10:47 PM
As of 01/05/2019 there were 7,926 branches and 46,952 SNPs on the haplotree for R1b.

As of today, 04/10/2019, we have the majority of the Big Y700 new test results in from the holiday sales. This has brought our totals up to 8,448 branches and 51,121 SNPs.

For the total R1b tree, there are currently 6 SNPs per branch. The holiday sale Big Y700's yielded 8 SNPs per branch. Thats not necessarily meaningful as penetration of testing increases we should expect the SNPs per branch to go down (more resolution in branching) but I suspect there will be work to add SNPs from new coverage regions of the Y chromosome.

We should see a lot of changes this summer but it may take a couple of months as there are several thousand Big Y500 to Big Y700 upgrades in the backlog. This may be mainly a lot of "catch up" in the number of SNPs, more so than the number of branches since most of these summer results will be upgrades (not new Big Y testers).

TigerMW
06-10-2019, 05:08 PM
The R1b haplotree has crossed over the 9,000 mark with 9,017 distinct branches discovered and documented on the R1b-M343 haplotree. A public version is at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

We've added a thousand branches in the last six months so we are still uncovering the tree in leaps and bounds.

aafusc2988
06-10-2019, 05:34 PM
Can anyone tell me about my haplogroup R-L196? Not a Barton, but apparently there are only a few surnames in this haplogroup.

palamede
06-12-2019, 08:55 PM
Can anyone tell me about my haplogroup R-L196? Not a Barton, but apparently there are only a few surnames in this haplogroup.

https://yfull.com/tree/R-L196/

https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1525&star=false

TigerMW
10-28-2019, 09:01 PM
The R1b haplotree has seen 23% growth in branching, many of these at the genealogical level. There are 9,684 branches on the haplotree for R1b now. That's not counting "*"'s or paragroups. I went back and checked the ISOGG tree for all of R1b back in 2011 and found it had 92 branches.

R1b has had 105X growth over the last 8 or 9 years.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

I inquired about the backlog of FTDNA's manual phlogenetic analysis/interpretation process. The big bulge of Big Y500 to Y700 upgrade test results are finished other than true exceptions related to samples, etc. but the manual interpretations have not caught up yet so we should see substantial growth in branches yet this year.



The R1b haplotree has crossed over the 9,000 mark with 9,017 distinct branches discovered and documented on the R1b-M343 haplotree. ...

We've added a thousand branches in the last six months so we are still uncovering the tree in leaps and bounds.

TigerMW
11-22-2019, 06:03 PM
The R1b haplotree at FTDNA now has 10,350 distinct branches, actually 10,351 if you include R-M343 itself.
FTDNA does not count paragroups (asterisk) in these totals but only actual subclades.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

We are seeing a nice steady stream of both new Big Y700 orders and results.

RobertCasey
11-23-2019, 03:15 AM
If you want an approximate number of unique YSNPs under R1b, you can take the branches and
pro-rate them with YSNPs under L226:

Branches - 141 - 6.9 %
Branch Equivalents - 303 - 14.8 %
Private YSNPs - 1596 - 78.3 %
Total YSNPs - 2040

So R1b would have around 10,351 / .069 = 150,000 unique YSNPs

That is a lot of potential YSNP branches.

TigerMW
11-23-2019, 03:09 PM
If you want an approximate number of unique YSNPs under R1b, you can take the branches and
pro-rate them with YSNPs under L226:

Branches - 141 - 6.9 %
Branch Equivalents - 303 - 14.8 %
Private YSNPs - 1596 - 78.3 %
Total YSNPs - 2040

So R1b would have around 10,351 / .069 = 150,000 unique YSNPs

That is a lot of potential YSNP branches.
Thanks, Robert. We could also look look at total haplogroup R numbers. R1b dominates haplogroup R anyway, tested population wise.

R has 11,935 branches today on the haplotree. R1b has 10,350 of those. R1b is about 87% of R.

This blog posted Goran R's haplotree summary numbers.
https://dna-explained.com/2019/11/12/big-y-news-and-stats-sale/

As of Oct 31, FTDNA counts for haplogroup R
11,543 branches
77,235 SNPs

That comes out to about 6.7 SNPs (variants actually) for each branch.

FTDNA does not count paragroups (asterisk "*") as branches. Some tree services count paragroups as subclades.

The current number of branches downstream of R-M343 is updated day to day on the public haplotree.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

If you click on the three dots to the right on the R-M343 row you can get a country report which shows the total number of kits that are SNP tested R1b of any kind on the haplotree. It shows 64,557.

RobertCasey
11-23-2019, 03:41 PM
R has 11,935 branches today on the haplotree. R1b has 10,350 of those. R1b is about 87% of R.

As of Oct 31, FTDNA counts for haplogroup R
11,543 branches
77,235 SNPs

That comes out to about 6.7 SNPs (variants actually) for each branch.

If you click on the three dots to the right on the R-M343 row you can get a country report which shows the total number of kits that are SNP tested R1b of any kind on the haplotree. It shows 64,557.

I believe that the public haplotree only shows testers that are confirmed by YSNP testing, so there are many more testers that are not YSNP tested (specially R-M269 predicted). L226 probably has more
YSNP tested than R1b in general but only 478 out of 837 known L226 tested have been tested for L226 or any of its downstream branches which is 57.1 % that are tested. So your number for R1b would
be much higher if you include the predicted R-M269 testers = 64,557 / .571 = 113,060 testers that are R1b if you include predicted testers.

The public haplotree is very handy for determining how many confirmed testers that you are missing from your haplogroup project as well as many confirmed testers are missing from all public projects
that you have in your EXCEL spreadsheet. I found that around 50 % of new L226 project joins are still at the default private setting which makes recruiting from the YDNA match list very critical to gaining
access to more testers (this is very laborious for a large haplogroup and the response rate is only around 50 % - even after multiple requests over long time frame).

TigerMW
11-23-2019, 04:00 PM
I believe that the public haplotree only shows testers that are confirmed by YSNP testing, so there are many more testers that are not YSNP tested (specially R-M269 predicted). ...

The public haplotree is very handy for determining how many confirmed testers that you are missing from your haplogroup project ...

Yes and yes.

I confirmed with FTDNA that the haplotree counts and totals include any Y DNA record that is SNP derived for any SNP on the haplotree. It doesn't not matter what test platform/technology was used.

TigerMW
12-24-2019, 07:04 PM
Here are the latest numbers from the R1b haplotree at FTDNA.

10,836 distinct branches

Over 76,000 SNPs

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

Cofgene
12-25-2019, 11:48 AM
Yes and yes.

I confirmed with FTDNA that the haplotree counts and totals include any Y DNA record that is SNP derived for any SNP on the haplotree. It doesn't not matter what test platform/technology was used.


The key phrase here is "derived for any SNP on the haplotree." Remember that FTDNA has, and continues to, not report valid calls obtained using other platforms/technologies because they have filtered those results out. There is missing calls from Y700 results which go back as far as 2010 for specific Sanger confirmed L-series SNPs which fall into the never to be seen filtered Y700 regions. FTDNA refuses to correct the tree for the missing results.

TigerMW
12-25-2019, 10:34 PM
FTDNA’s haplotree is by far the largest Y tree with the most branches and SNPs.

It is based on the scientific concepts of an experiment, data validation and repeatability. It is not a hodge-podge of reported branches based on non-validated phylogeny and variants, or inconsistent quality standards.

They have and will use variants and branching found from their Big Y, Walk The Y (which includes L series SNPs), Sanger Advanced Tests, old Sanger Subclades Panels, MASSARRAY SNP Packs and evening National Genographic.

Sometimes hobbyists have different opinions on variant calls but FTDNA will stick with their quality control standards.

They could rebuild the tree from the ground up with data they have in-house. Despite that conservative restriction they are still the largest tree.

TigerMW
12-25-2019, 11:09 PM
I confirmed with FTDNA that the haplotree counts and totals include any Y DNA record that is SNP derived for any SNP on the haplotree.
I want to clear up potential misunderstandings. FTDNA’s testing and systems recognize many SNPs beyond just those on their haplotree. For example their haplotree has over 200K SNPs now. They had 100K on the tree already by May 2018.

Just in 2019, Big Y700 discovered at least new 211,046 SNPs. That means probably half these new SNPs are NOT on the haplotree.

https://isogg.org/wiki/FT_SNPs_210K

TigerMW
01-03-2020, 01:49 AM
R1b ended up 2019 with 10,843 branches. I have from a year that we had 7,797 branches so there was a 39% growth in branches this year.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

Currently the project has 22,715 members. 9,272 have done Big Y.

11,280 have done Y111 STR markers so just under half of the project.
16,707 have done Y67 STR markers which is about 74% of the project. I am glad we have moved beyond Y37.

TigerMW
01-07-2020, 08:25 PM
We just crossed the 11,000 mark of distinct branches to 11,010. Last year's measurement was at this date so we had 41% growth year to year.


R1b ended up 2019 with 10,843 branches. I have from a year that we had 7,797 branches so there was a 39% growth in branches this year.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

Currently the project has 22,715 members. 9,272 have done Big Y.

11,280 have done Y111 STR markers so just under half of the project.
16,707 have done Y67 STR markers which is about 74% of the project. I am glad we have moved beyond Y37.

TigerMW
02-05-2020, 10:24 PM
The R1b All Subclades project now has 11,628 branches.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R;name=R-M343

The project has had significant growth the last few weeks and now have 24,812 members.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b/about/results

The R1b Gold Haplotypes spreadsheet of Y111 and Big Y testers has been updated and is available on the R1b project Activity Feed.