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View Full Version : Y15121: Prussian-Sri Lankan subclade within R1a-Z2123



lgmayka
05-19-2015, 07:59 PM
YFull's latest haplotree includes R-Y15121 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y15121/), a subclade of Y934 < Z2123. The new clade's only known members so far are:
- Kit 182102 from East Prussia (now Poland)
- Samples HG03740 and HG03887, from among Sri Lankan Tamils in the UK

YFull estimates that the lineages diverged about 3900 years ago.

Dr_McNinja
05-19-2015, 08:28 PM
I wonder why they haven't listed the number of SNPs next to that clade after adding the new individual?

lgmayka
05-19-2015, 09:42 PM
I wonder why they haven't listed the number of SNPs next to that clade after adding the new individual?
Apparently, the three examples have only the one SNP in common (downstream from Y934). The Prussian customer has the following unshared novel SNPs:
11 Best quality
17 Acceptable quality

It is surprising to me that the two Sri Lankan samples have no further common SNPs between the two of them. Or perhaps they do, and YFull just hasn't "gotten around" to charting them because they are not customers?

sandeepchau123
11-19-2015, 10:00 AM
Apparently, the three examples have only the one SNP in common (downstream from Y934). The Prussian customer has the following unshared novel SNPs:
11 Best quality
17 Acceptable quality

It is surprising to me that the two Sri Lankan samples have no further common SNPs between the two of them. Or perhaps they do, and YFull just hasn't "gotten around" to charting them because they are not customers?

Hi Igmayka,
This is Sandeep and from India and detected z2123. FTDNA kit 357604

lgmayka
11-19-2015, 03:36 PM
This is Sandeep and from India and detected z2123. FTDNA kit 357604
Do you plan to order any of the following?
- Big Y from FTDNA
- FullGenomes' full-Y test
- Z93 SNP panel from Yseq
- Upcoming Z93 SNP Pack from FTDNA (not yet released)

sandeepchau123
11-20-2015, 07:38 AM
I am waiting for Z93 pack from FTDNA. if i choose Yseq then again i have to share my dna smaple which is very difficult for Indians. The normal postal service which is used is of no use. they never deliver the KIT. so I had to Order FTDNA kit with FEDEX and and send it back with same courier. I am not sure whether there is portability between Yseq and FTDNA like Geno 2.0. If yes they i can upload my results of Yseq.

lgmayka
11-20-2015, 09:15 AM
I am not sure whether there is portability between Yseq and FTDNA like Geno 2.0.
No, there is not. In your case, I suggest waiting for the Z93 SNP Pack. We gave FTDNA our complete proposal for this pack on October 31, and we were promptly told: "I have this scheduled for design and will get back to you if I need any equivalents."

sandeepchau123
11-20-2015, 09:35 AM
No, there is not. In your case, I suggest waiting for the Z93 SNP Pack. We gave FTDNA our complete proposal for this pack on October 31, and we were promptly told: "I have this scheduled for design and will get back to you if I need any equivalents."

I guess this z2123 in India is because of Scythians and Kushans. However is there any way to make out whether is from Kushan's or Scythians. I guess Kushans are from Yeuzhi tribe of china.

sandeepchau123
11-20-2015, 09:37 AM
I am waiting for Z93 pack from FTDNA. if i choose Yseq then again i have to share my dna smaple which is very difficult for Indians. The normal postal service which is used is of no use. they never deliver the KIT. so I had to Order FTDNA kit with FEDEX and and send it back with same courier. I am not sure whether there is portability between Yseq and FTDNA like Geno 2.0. If yes they i can upload my results of Yseq.

one more thing. i am neither Srilankan nor South Indian. I am fro Western part of India.

paulgill
11-20-2015, 09:45 AM
I guess this z2123 in India is because of Scythians and Kushans. However is there any way to make out whether is from Kushan's or Scythians. I guess Kushans are from Yeuzhi tribe of china.


Just listen to Parasar or Igmayka they will give you right advice, you are in good hands now. Z2123 for me appears to be Indo-Aryans/Indo-Iranian, but it could be Kushans/Scythians too, they are all cousins, anyways. Are you a Jatt, Gujjar or Rajput?

sandeepchau123
11-20-2015, 10:01 AM
I am Maratha by caste however as per history migrated from Bahartpur(Rajasthan) in 15th century with arrival of Muslim rulers in Bharatpur. As per history of our Gotra we are Jat.

WGalinski
01-21-2016, 09:49 PM
Hi everyone,

I am the next one R-Y15121 and new to this forum.
I am waiting for my yfull results now.

Hope to have many nice chats with you,

Wojtek


YFull's latest haplotree includes R-Y15121 (http://yfull.com/tree/R-Y15121/), a subclade of Y934 < Z2123. The new clade's only known members so far are:
- Kit 182102 from East Prussia (now Poland)
- Samples HG03740 and HG03887, from among Sri Lankan Tamils in the UK

YFull estimates that the lineages diverged about 3900 years ago.

lgmayka
01-30-2016, 06:46 PM
The Y-SNP page of the R1a Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a?iframe=ysnp) now has 5 members of R-Y15121.
182102 of East Prussia
369148 of Yemen
141188 of Poland
364878 of Bulgaria
B82688 of Poland

Amerijoe
02-01-2016, 02:26 PM
Hello Igmayka: I'm B82688, who was just dropped into snp Y15121. The R1a project suggest testing with BigY. After looking at Yfull tree, it has only 4 ids listed under Y15121. It seems expensive to find out if I belong behind door #2. Do you think these ids will become separately testable in the future or is the BigY the only option?

Thanks,

Joe

lgmayka
02-01-2016, 04:11 PM
Do you think these ids will become separately testable in the future or is the BigY the only option?
Those are individual men, not subclades. The only way to discover new subclades is via full-Y scanning (either FTDNA's Big Y or FullGenomes' Y Elite).

WGalinski
02-01-2016, 07:48 PM
Hi Joe,

Which part of Poland are you related to?
How deep are your genealogical roots?
My ancestors lived in Suwalki area since ca. 1750 (probably even since at least late XVII century).

Thanks,

Wojtek


Hello Igmayka: I'm B82688, who was just dropped into snp Y15121. The R1a project suggest testing with BigY.

Thanks,

Joe

Amerijoe
02-03-2016, 10:25 PM
Hi Wojtek: Actually I'm from Paisley, Scotland presently residing in the US. Just recently started DNA investigation into my lineage. Audna breakdown average from the big three puts me at 98% British Isles. I have taken the advice of Larry and Michal and initiated testing for full Ydna sequencing. It will be interesting to see how are results compare. Hopefully more Y15121 will uncovered and downstream subclades will discovered.

Joe

Artmar
02-06-2016, 11:09 AM
Cathegory of Y15121 is even broader than expected, we've received results of Z93 SNP Pack and this subclade dominated.

*NEW* Y15121s:

#160543 from Iraq
#257286 from Iran
#E9232 from Catalonia, Spain
#270537 from France
#103319 English/British(?) American
#180380 English/British(?) American with related #251923

mazindoul
02-07-2016, 05:55 PM
hello

my kit number is 160543 and I am originally from Basra, Iraq

I would love to know more about snp Y15121 which i am +ve for

lgmayka
03-10-2016, 12:13 AM
The next version of the YFull haplotree will show a new subclade of R-Y15121 called R-Y19715. It will include a northeastern Polish sample and an East Prussian sample.

DTWyatt
03-15-2016, 05:37 PM
Artmar - I am 103319 from Delaware, USA. My most distant ancestor, at this time, is Thomas Wyatt from Bristol, Gloucestershire, England. FTDNA shows me as 56% British Isles, 31% Scandanavia, and 13% Southern & Western Europe.

Ricardoni
07-10-2016, 12:03 AM
Just listen to Parasar or Igmayka they will give you right advice, you are in good hands now. Z2123 for me appears to be Indo-Aryans/Indo-Iranian, but it could be Kushans/Scythians too, they are all cousins, anyways. Are you a Jatt, Gujjar or Rajput?
I don't think its a surprise that Kushans/Scythians are shown with Turanid/Mongoloid facial types on ancient coins and busts, and it should be mentioned that Z2125 (ancestor of Z2123) is a primarily Turkic haplogroup. North India, especially Gujjarat is well-known for Turkic-influenced regions.

Coldmountains
07-10-2016, 07:41 AM
I don't think its a surprise that Kushans/Scythians are shown with Turanid/Mongoloid facial types on ancient coins and busts, and it should be mentioned that Z2125 (ancestor of Z2123) is a primarily Turkic haplogroup. North India, especially Gujjarat is well-known for Turkic-influenced regions.
Don't know where I have to start. Yes some Kushan, Scythians were mongolid and turanid but actually most coins, facial types and busts show Caucasoid types. Ancient sources describe them as mainly Caucasoid looking also. All R1a-Z93 among Turks is from absorbed /assimilated Indo-Iranians. Maybe some very deep clades are exclusively Turkic today but there is no major and older clade of R1a-Z93 which could be old enough to predate Turkic contact with Iranics.The Turkic genetic impact in India is basically close to zero and please don't tell me that Tajiks, Kalash , Pashtuns are mainly R1a-Z93 (Z2125,..) because of Turkic influences.

Amerijoe
07-10-2016, 12:17 PM
My origins has me at 98% British Isles, 2% Eastern Middle East. Could the 2% be the original source for my R-Y15121? Geno Project breakdown 97% Britain, Ireland, Scotland; 2% Arabia.

Positive for R1a-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934>Y15121. Maybe in the future, the origin of R-Y15121 will be established.

Agamemnon
07-10-2016, 03:37 PM
I don't think its a surprise that Kushans/Scythians are shown with Turanid/Mongoloid facial types on ancient coins and busts, and it should be mentioned that Z2125 (ancestor of Z2123) is a primarily Turkic haplogroup. North India, especially Gujjarat is well-known for Turkic-influenced regions.

Z2125 is thousands (about 2,000) of years older than anything remotely Turkic. Moreover, all that mumbo-jumbo about "facial types" makes about as much as sense as what you said about Z2125 and India... That is to say, not much.

parasar
07-17-2016, 02:45 AM
I don't think its a surprise that Kushans/Scythians are shown with Turanid/Mongoloid facial types on ancient coins and busts, and it should be mentioned that Z2125 (ancestor of Z2123) is a primarily Turkic haplogroup. North India, especially Gujjarat is well-known for Turkic-influenced regions.

Gujarat to Khotan was indeed the Saka belt, but to accept that Gujarat was Turkic influenced is beyond my comprehension.

I agree with you that some of the Kushan had an Turki/Mongoloid imprint. Their home base for centuries had been central Asia, Nepal, and W. Tibet so that is to be expected.

parasar
07-17-2016, 02:50 AM
Z2125 is thousands (about 2,000) of years older than anything remotely Turkic. Moreover, all that mumbo-jumbo about "facial types" makes about as much as sense as what you said about Z2125 and India... That is to say, not much.

I suspect Turks existed well before what is normally accepted.

Fully agree about the facial types.

Agamemnon
07-17-2016, 05:10 PM
I suspect Turks existed well before what is normally accepted.

Fully agree about the facial types.

Common Turkic was more or less contemporary with Proto-Germanic, it broke up circa 450 BCE, Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic (the common ancestor of Common Turkic and Lir Turkic) broke up 300 years prior to the disintegration of Common Turkic so some time around 800 BCE at best. There's no way around this really, so Z2125 is thousands of years older than anything remotely Turkic.

Tomenable
07-18-2016, 06:58 PM
YFull also has samples from modern Poland, from Podlaskie and Pomorskie voivodeships:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y15121/

Tomenable
07-18-2016, 07:01 PM
As for Proto-Turks, I think that they were mostly C, Q and N1c.

Here are ancient DNA samples of Xiongnu/Hunnu haplogroups:

Places of origin of samples:

1) Egin Gol river valley cemetery in Mongolia
2) Duurling Nars cemetery in Mongolia
3) Barköl cemetery in Xinjiang, China
4) Birlik cemetery in Kazakhstan

Paternal lineages:

East Asian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 82%):

Haplo C2e - 3
Haplo C2 - 7
Haplo C - 1
Haplo Q1a2 - 3
Haplo Q1a3a - 3
Haplo Q1b - 1
Haplo N1c-Tat - 3
Haplo O3a2 - 1

West Eurasian Y-DNA haplogroups (ca. 18%):

Haplo R1a - 3
Haplo R1b - 1
Haplo I2c - 1

Maternal lineages:

East Asian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 83%):

Haplo D4 - 19
Haplo D4o1 - 9
Haplo D5a - 1
Haplo D5 - 1
Haplo C - 4
Haplo C4a1 - 1
Haplo C5 - 1
Haplo F1b - 4
Haplo G2a - 1
Haplo G2 - 1
Haplo B4 - 1

Uncertain origin mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 3%):

Haplo M - 2

West Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups (ca. 14%):

Haplo U5a1a - 2
Haplo U2e1 - 1
Haplo U2 - 1
Haplo J1 - 2
Haplo H - 1

Agnimitra
07-19-2016, 12:56 PM
Germanic- Sri Lankan connection has left it mark in linguistics too. When I first read about it, I was too perplexed to make a sense of it. I could not think of any spacial or temporal explanation for this linguistic connection. And now there is a genetic connection too. I believe we need to rethink our theories.

Jean M
07-30-2016, 06:43 PM
Seems to be looking promising as a marker (in some parts of Europe at least) of Sarmatians in the Roman Army. Some were stationed in Britannia, some in France. In Poland I would guess at a little steppe mixture with the Slavs.

Amerijoe
07-30-2016, 07:14 PM
Seems to be looking promising as a marker (in some parts of Europe at least) of Sarmatians in the Roman Army. Some were stationed in Britannia, some in France. In Poland I would guess at a little steppe mixture with the Slavs.

Now you're forcing me check to see if he was a legionnaire or imperator. I'll find someone of prestige yet. Looks like I have to look further back. Did cave people have rank?:unsure:

Tomenable
08-03-2016, 04:52 PM
Agnimitra - Prussians were Baltic, not Germanic.

Ral
08-05-2016, 04:59 AM
Common Turkic was more or less contemporary with Proto-Germanic, it broke up circa 450 BCE, Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic (the common ancestor of Common Turkic and Lir Turkic) broke up 300 years prior to the disintegration of Common Turkic so some time around 800 BCE at best. There's no way around this really, so Z2125 is thousands of years older than anything remotely Turkic.
Unfortunately glottochronology can give a limited picture of the ethnic history of some peoples, as it is based on the currently existing and documented extinct dialect. Languages ​​can go as well as in the genetics through "bottleneck" .For example, the extinct Hittite (accidentally found) ancientize Indo-European family for 1.5-2 thousands years. Turkic family of languages ​​can be rejuvenated without Chuvash almost doubled (even 17-18 centuries Chuvash described as very small population and their language could well disappear before the documentation).
Chronological rejuvenation of the Turkic language family could happen through the disappearance / assimilation of peripheral languages ​​and dialects. Perhaps there was a unification of the Turkic languages ​​in the Turkic khanate. (Many Turkic languages ​​have a mix between themselves). Do not forget that nomadic pastoralists are highly mobile, and for them there is less space barriers. Although I generally agree that the main part of the Turkic languages ​​is probably related to some of the last invasion, but we can't categorically assert that there was no previous invasions from certain regions in Asia ended with dissolution and assimilation of these waves of migrations.

Agamemnon
08-05-2016, 05:24 AM
Unfortunately glottochronology can give a limited picture of the ethnic history of some peoples, as it is based on the currently existing and documented extinct dialect. Languages ​​can go also in the genetics through "bottleneck" .For example, the extinct Hittite (accidentally found) ancientize Indo-European family for 1.5-2 thousands years. Turkic family of languages ​​can be rejuvenated without Chuvash almost doubled (even 17-18 centuries Chuvash described as very small populations folk and their language could well disappear before the documentation).
Chronological rejuvenation of the Turkic language family could happen through the disappearance / assimilation of peripheral languages ​​and dialects. Perhaps there was a unification of the Turkic languages ​​in the Turkic khanate. (Many Turkic languages ​​have a mix between themselves). Do not forget that nomadic pastoralists are highly mobile, and for them there is less space barriers. Although I generally agree that the basis part of the Turkic languages ​​is probably related to some of the last invasion, we can not categorically assert that there was no previous invasions from certain regions in Asia ended the dissolution and assimilation of these waves of migrations.

What makes you even think that I'm using glottochronology here? Like I said, Common Turkic broke up circa 450 BCE, this is pretty uncontroversial.

Ral
08-05-2016, 05:30 AM
What makes you even think that I'm using glottochronology here? Like I said, Common Turkic broke up circa 450 BCE, this is pretty uncontroversial. As i know, it's linguistic dating. There are no more sources.

Agamemnon
08-05-2016, 05:35 AM
As i know, it's linguistic dating. There are no more sources.

Glottochronology focuses on lexical divergence, this is a flawed approach. A more secure method is focusing on overall divergence (from a morphological, phonological and lexical standpoint, in that order of relevance).

Ral
08-05-2016, 05:37 AM
Glottochronology focuses on lexical divergence, this is a flawed approach. A more secure method is focusing on overall divergence (from a morphological, phonological and lexical standpoint, in that order of relevance).
However, this is linguistic dating?

Agamemnon
08-05-2016, 05:44 AM
However, this is linguistic dating?

It depends what you mean by "linguistic dating", it's a terminus post quem estimation technically-speaking.

Ral
08-05-2016, 05:51 AM
It depends what you mean by "linguistic dating", it's a terminus post quem estimation technically-speaking.

I do not know this method, but it does not matter.
As glottochronology, it obviously relies on the now existing languages. However, I would like to learn more about this method. Can you give a link,please?

tamilgangster
08-05-2016, 06:30 AM
I wonder why they haven't listed the number of SNPs next to that clade after adding the new individual?

what ethinicity are the sri lankan samples can u run them on harappadna

Agamemnon
08-05-2016, 06:34 AM
I do not know this method, but it does not matter.
As glottochronology, it obviously relies on the now existing languages. However, I would like to learn more about this method. Can you give a link,please?

The comparative method per se relies on attested languages, while I agree that deducing facts on a proto-language from attested languages can seem redudant and can even sound like circular reasoning, it remains the most precise method to date and has proven to be consistently reliable. You mentioned Hittite for example, to illustrate how reliable this method is I''ll remind you that the outlines of the laryngeal theory had already been advanced by Ferdinand de Saussure and Hermann Möller 1878 and 1880 (the former positing vowel-coloring laryngeals and the latter adding a vowel-lengthening laryngeal), that is to say before Hittite was even deciphered, and this is by and large due to the strict application of the comparative method in the reconstruction of PIE.

The terminus post quem estimation I mentioned is not a method by itself however, it is a realistic estimate of the break up of a proto-language going off sheer divergence while taking other factors into account (such as the lifestyle of the earliest Turkic-speaking communities and its effects on divergence).

Ral
08-05-2016, 09:01 AM
The comparative method per se relies on attested languages, while I agree that deducing facts on a proto-language from attested languages can seem redudant and can even sound like circular reasoning, it remains the most precise method to date and has proven to be consistently reliable. You mentioned Hittite for example, to illustrate how reliable this method is I''ll remind you that the outlines of the laryngeal theory had already been advanced by Ferdinand de Saussure and Hermann Möller 1878 and 1880 (the former positing vowel-coloring laryngeals and the latter adding a vowel-lengthening laryngeal), that is to say before Hittite was even deciphered, and this is by and large due to the strict application of the comparative method in the reconstruction of PIE.

The terminus post quem estimation I mentioned is not a method by itself however, it is a realistic estimate of the break up of a proto-language going off sheer divergence while taking other factors into account (such as the lifestyle of the earliest Turkic-speaking communities and its effects on divergence).
I know comparative method, but i did'nt know that comparative method can calculate the date of language differences instead of glottochronology, so I asked for a link that showes it.

tamilgangster
08-07-2016, 05:31 PM
Germanic- Sri Lankan connection has left it mark in linguistics too. When I first read about it, I was too perplexed to make a sense of it. I could not think of any spacial or temporal explanation for this linguistic connection. And now there is a genetic connection too. I believe we need to rethink our theories.

Its probably dutch admixture, which is causing this

parasar
08-09-2016, 12:52 AM
Its probably dutch admixture, which is causing this

Dutch admixture - for Y15121 showing up in Lankans? Doubtful.
Sure the Dutch were there, by the way even near my village in interior Bihar in the 1600s - https://books.google.com/books?id=dhUmAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA21
But I have not seen any evidence of Dutch DNA - wouldn't it be mainly Y-R1b and some I anyway?

parastais
08-09-2016, 05:12 AM
To be honest Dutch were in East Prussia too. However we then need to find same clade in Holland.

Agnimitra
08-12-2016, 11:20 AM
@Tomenable

Agreed. Guess Frederick the great gave me wrong ideas.

I was trying to show the peculiarities of Sinhalese branch. The geographical location of Sinhalese is very curious - far separated from the Sanskrit heartland and the other IE branches. The timelines are also not clear. What is clear is that the traditional story of a Buddhist era migration from Bengal does not seem to account for all the findings in genetics or linguistics. While admixture studies also show, apart from the Bengali affinity, contribution from NW India (12%), linguistics faces its own difficulties in classifying the language and interpreting its features.

http://archaeologyonline.net/sites/default/files/imported/indology/2007/horse/map-genetic.jpg

It has been found difficult to fit Sinhalese into the Indo Aryan branch . It has been heavily Sankritised/Prakritised in the Buddhist period, but not beyond the recognition of the riddling features. Wilhelm Geiger pointed out that many features of its phonology and morphology have no parallels with any IA language. There are even words in Sinhalese that are neither loan words nor derived. One striking example is the Sinhalese word watura is closely cognate to the Germanic word and the Anatolian(Hittite) watar and is impossible to explain based on Sanskrit or Indo Aryan etymology. It ostensibly represents a pre- IndoIranian form of Sanskrit Uda(-ka).

M.W.S. de Silva, in his detailed study of Sinhalese agrees with Wilhelm Geiger and S. Paranavitana that the particular group of immigrants who gave the name "Simhala" to the composite people and language on the Island seems to have come from northwestern India their original habitat was on the upper reaches of the Indus river in what is now the borderland between Pakistan and Afghanistan How does this finding fare the scrutiny of the available genetic data ? How is the estimated divergence of 3900 bp to be made sense of?

Perhaps Sinhalese represents a remnant of an archaic branch of IE languages. It needs to examined thoroughly with an open mind for all such surviving ultra archaisms.

jmestres
09-28-2016, 06:56 PM
Hi All,

I am not Y15121, but I am Y934>Y7094>Y5992>Y5992*. I've been able to trace my paternal lineage back to c. 1480, confirmed with documental evidences generation by generation. My oldest paternal ancestor was from Asturias, in the north of Spain. I've noticed there is a Y15121 person from Catalonia, north-east of Spain. So, Y934's did get at some point into the Iberian Peninsula.

I'd just like to highlight that, most interestingly, each subclade down from Y934 seems to have samples from both north-west (Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, British Isles, Spain) and south-east (Yemen, Kuwait, Qatar, India). So, some time about 4,000 years ago, some descendants of our common Y934 ancestor decided to go north-west, whereas others went south-east.

Very much looking forward to seeing how this whole Y934 clade evolves as more people get tested.

Kind regards.

Amerijoe
02-01-2017, 06:46 PM
Just posted, "I thought you might like to know that I have updated the phylogenetic tree of Y-haplogroup R1a-Z93 on Eupedia" by Maciamo Hay.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#subclades

Z93>Y15121 is now listed as Europe and Middle East.

lgmayka
02-01-2017, 09:17 PM
Two more R-Y15121 entries should be added to YFull's tree within the next month or two, both from Southwest Asia. Perhaps unfortunately, they may both end up simply R-Y15121*.

WGalinski
02-13-2017, 11:56 AM
Dear distant Cousins,
I am organizing our family reunion this July. Of course, I am planning to inform my family about my Big-Y results (we are Y15121). I am expecting that some among questions that will follow will deal with Slavic or non-Slavic origin of the male ancestor of our family. Does such question make sense and if yes, what would be the answer? In what way Big-Y results may point out to tribal origin of nowadays people, if at all? And in general, if we are Y15121 who we are in the ancestral sense? I would highly appreciate your views.
Best regards,
Wojtek

Amerijoe
02-13-2017, 06:16 PM
Dear distant Cousins,
I am organizing our family reunion this July. Of course, I am planning to inform my family about my Big-Y results (we are Y15121). I am expecting that some among questions that will follow will deal with Slavic or non-Slavic origin of the male ancestor of our family. Does such question make sense and if yes, what would be the answer? In what way Big-Y results may point out to tribal origin of nowadays people, if at all? And in general, if we are Y15121 who we are in the ancestral sense? I would highly appreciate your views.
Best regards, My
Wojtek

Wojtek, distant cousins by all accounts we are. My BigY results have been posted at Yfull, YF08005 Scot. The other Scot listing is also mine, awaiting FGC results. No one at this time, I am aware, has the origin of this clad. From what I've read it's probable origin may be in the Urals. With Asia on one side and Europe on the other. One can see a melting pot of both. Migration Spread this clad both Northwest, somehow ending up in Scotland for me. Other clad members migrated Southeast, ending up in Iran, Iraq vicinity.

Looking at my BigY matches at R-Z93, 2 from Saudi Arabia. R-Z2123 (12), Druze 1, Arab surnames 6, Bashkortostan 1, Poland 1, UK 1, US 1(English), ?1. R-Y15121 (8), Iraq 1, Iran 1, Yemen1, Bulgaria 1, Poland 1, US (UK) 2, Scotland 1. Also, 2 matches from Sri Lanka at Yfull.

My closest match YP5842 is to a gentlemen of East Prussian descent at TMRCA of 3700 years.
With limited samples, the origin will have to wait for a while, unless one pops up in an archeological study. :noidea:

Amerijoe
05-15-2017, 08:40 PM
Here are links to my results for those interested in Yfull. The first one is BigY and the second is Y-Elite. As you will see, there is a difference in coverage between the two and also, not shown, no mt results with BigY, even with those differences they each produced the same end result, YP5842.

http://www.yfull.com/share/yreport/bee44e70102cb6b417fbb8a3b2bf1dc1/
http://www.yfull.com/share/yreport/7bb3a9bfc7a37dd3d50cdd5ff405c75d/

WGalinski
06-12-2017, 11:25 AM
Dear Distant but Professional Cousins,

Please respond to my request as copied below because the Family Reunion date is coming but the responses are not. Alternatively, please let me know if my question is off the list topic.

Thank you for your understanding,

Wojtek


Dear distant Cousins,
I am organizing our family reunion this July. Of course, I am planning to inform my family about my Big-Y results (we are Y15121). I am expecting that some among questions that will follow will deal with Slavic or non-Slavic origin of the male ancestor of our family. Does such question make sense and if yes, what would be the answer? In what way Big-Y results may point out to tribal origin of nowadays people, if at all? And in general, if we are Y15121 who we are in the ancestral sense? I would highly appreciate your views.
Best regards,
Wojtek

lgmayka
06-12-2017, 01:51 PM
I am expecting that some among questions that will follow will deal with Slavic or non-Slavic origin of the male ancestor of our family. Does such question make sense and if yes, what would be the answer? In what way Big-Y results may point out to tribal origin of nowadays people, if at all? And in general, if we are Y15121 who we are in the ancestral sense? I would highly appreciate your views.
I am not myself a member of R-Y15121 but I will briefly give my opinion anyway. :)

Although you belong to R-Y15121, you belong more specifically to R-YP5272 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP5272/), a subclade of R-YP5271 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP5271/), which is in turn a subclade of R-Y19715 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y19715/).

Your fellow member of R-YP5272 asserts only American patrilineage, presumably from the British Isles farther back. YFull estimates your TMRCA with this man at 2300 years ago. So where did this common ancestor live, when Rome was still a republic? The Balkans? Crimea? The Zarubintsy culture? The Milograd culture? How did one of his patrilineal descendants end up in the British Isles and another in Poland?

Sorry, I don't have an answer to those questions.

Ricardoni
06-23-2018, 11:36 AM
Don't know where I have to start. Yes some Kushan, Scythians were mongolid and turanid but actually most coins, facial types and busts show Caucasoid types. Ancient sources describe them as mainly Caucasoid looking also. All R1a-Z93 among Turks is from absorbed /assimilated Indo-Iranians. Maybe some very deep clades are exclusively Turkic today but there is no major and older clade of R1a-Z93 which could be old enough to predate Turkic contact with Iranics.The Turkic genetic impact in India is basically close to zero and please don't tell me that Tajiks, Kalash , Pashtuns are mainly R1a-Z93 (Z2125,..) because of Turkic influences.

Turanoid elements do occur among the Mahrāṭṭa (also known as "West-brachids") and Orientaloid Mohammedans in the population of Mysore of India.[45] Eickstedt and Risley noticed that Turanid brachycephalic elements even reached the Bengal corridor via Balochistan, which Eickstedt traces to a contact-metamorphosis with adjacent Paleo-Mongoloids.[46] British ethnographer Herbert Risley suggested that this bracbycephalic elements resulted from "Scythian" invasions.[47] Indian historian Ramaprasad Chanda traces the broad-headed elements in both "Scytho-Dravidians" (Gujaratis, Marathis and Coorgs) and "Mongolo-Dravidians" (Bengalis and Oriya) to one common source, the Homo alpinus of the Pamirs and Chinese Turkestan, suggesting a migration of Alpine invaders from Central Asia over Gujarat, Deccan, Bihar, Bengal.[47] The Hungarian-British archaeologists Aurel Stein concurs with Chanda.[47]

compare the "Scythian civilization. VII-III centuries. BC" map with the "Turanid racial type according to Eickstedt" map from 1934.

Ricardoni
06-23-2018, 11:38 AM
Z2125 is thousands (about 2,000) of years older than anything remotely Turkic. Moreover, all that mumbo-jumbo about "facial types" makes about as much as sense as what you said about Z2125 and India... That is to say, not much.

Common Turkic was more or less contemporary with Proto-Germanic, it broke up circa 450 BCE, Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic (the common ancestor of Common Turkic and Lir Turkic) broke up 300 years prior to the disintegration of Common Turkic so some time around 800 BCE at best. There's no way around this really, so Z2125 is thousands of years older than anything remotely Turkic.

Proto-Turkic language 4500 BC. Any questions? Kyrgyz R1a Descent Cluster 1300 BC. Any questions? Hotspot of R1a Z93 = Turkics. Any questions? Oghuz-Oghur split occurred in 2000 BC. Any questions?

Agamemnon
06-23-2018, 12:59 PM
Proto-Turkic language 4500 BC. Any questions? Kyrgyz R1a Descent Cluster 1300 BC. Any questions? Hotspot of R1a Z93 = Turkics. Any questions? Oghuz-Oghur split occurred in 2000 BC. Any questions?

I sure have one: Do you seriously expect that kind of Turanist nonsense to work here?

Ricardoni
06-23-2018, 03:56 PM
I sure have one: Do you seriously expect that kind of Turanist nonsense to work here?
I actually didn't saw any question.

parasar
06-23-2018, 04:30 PM
I actually didn't saw any question.

"Proto-Turkic language 4500 BC. Any questions?"
Do we know that there was Z93 among them?

Kyrgyz R1a Descent Cluster 1300 BC. Any questions?
Do we know that that ancestor from 1300 BC was speaking Toorki?

Hotspot of R1a Z93 = Turkics. Any questions? Oghuz-Oghur split occurred in 2000 BC. Any questions?
While I discount modern distribution to predict the past in general, perhaps only 1% of current Z93 is Turki speaking.

Ricardoni
06-23-2018, 04:47 PM
"Proto-Turkic language 4500 BC. Any questions?"
Do we know that there was Z93 among them?

Kyrgyz R1a Descent Cluster 1300 BC. Any questions?
Do we know that that ancestor from 1300 BC was speaking Toorki?

Hotspot of R1a Z93 = Turkics. Any questions? Oghuz-Oghur split occurred in 2000 BC. Any questions?
While I discount modern distribution to predict the past in general, perhaps only 1% of current Z93 is Turki speaking.
Typical Farsi propaganda methods based on wishful thinking to avoid serious discussions.

Agamemnon
06-23-2018, 06:49 PM
I actually didn't saw any question.

You made three claims that contradict the data, I'm still waiting for to prove each and single one of them.


Typical Farsi propaganda methods based on wishful thinking to avoid serious discussions.

Fascinating rebuttal. Something tells me you won't last long here.

Ricardoni
06-23-2018, 06:58 PM
You made three claims that contradict the data, I'm still waiting for to prove each and single one of them.

Fascinating rebuttal. Something tells me you won't last long here.
Lol, soon enough you will see who I really am :)

Btw, the argumentation style of parasar is so childish and ludicrous that my brain cells hurt when I am trying to answer to such a mental deficiency.

The chain of Z93: Karasuk -> Andronovo -> Scythian -> Xiongnu -> Göktürk -> Modern Turkics
This chain is accompanied by Q1a.

Agamemnon
06-23-2018, 07:04 PM
Lol, soon enough you will see who I really am :)

Btw, the argumentation style of parasar is so childish and ludicrous that my brain cells hurt when I am trying to answer to such a mental deficiency.

The chain of Z93: Karasuk -> Andronovo -> Scythian -> Xiongnu -> Göktürk -> Modern Turkics
This chain is accompanied by Q1a.

We know full-well who you really are, make no mistake about it.

Ricardoni
06-23-2018, 07:11 PM
We know full-well who you really are, make no mistake about it.
I know how to handle with it. Thanks for your advice.