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View Full Version : Do you trust 23andme's Ancestry Composition or GEDmatch calculators more?



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Leto
05-11-2018, 12:53 AM
23andme just groups all South Asian countries as one unlike Europe, where it shows specific countries where you're descent is from, and so I don't think it would be very useful to a South Asian than GEDmatch would be with its detailed admix breakdown.
Was GM accurate for you?

ianz91
05-12-2018, 06:52 AM
Jesus christ this thread went downhill quick

Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 07:31 AM
But again the way that the major testing companies work is to identify the basic ethnicity/country of origin and not the components underlying it. Someone is not looking to see the make up of AJ (or English or Swedish or whatever), but to know that they ARE, say, 50% AJ, 50% whatever else. Gedmatch will show that someone from SE England is likely to have 5% Western Asian (as that component is called in K13), but I wouldn't expect 23 & Me to identify someone who was from SE England as 5% West Asian, but 100% English/Irish (with 5 stars for England) -- if that was how they tested, of course.

I get about 7% West Asian on Gedmatch, but I don't think it's wrong that I don't get that on Ancestry or the like. I get somewhere between 0 and 2%, instead.

What about Slavic people with Jewish roots? Why your perfect company 23andme cannot predict this?

Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 07:39 AM
Average AJ result from Eurogenes K13:

For either group, if you tell them they have recent ancestry from, say, the Middle East or Asia (or the North Atlantic, for that matter) it's confusing and misleading. If you tell them they are Italian or AJ, they can explore further what the components that let to that estimate are.

Anyone sensible knows what AJ means and can explore the history, the diaspora, so on.

You clearly have low level knowledge of Jewish diasporas

msmarjoribanks
05-12-2018, 02:08 PM
What about Slavic people with Jewish roots? Why your perfect company 23andme cannot predict this?

It's not perfect. That is a wholly different topic than was being discussed.

Gedmatch and the big commercial tests like 23 and Me and Ancestry, etc., do different things. If you think 23 and Me routinely fails to identify AJ percentages in certain types of testers, that's a fair criticism. I don't know what the evidence is for what you claim, and it's not the same thing as was claimed earlier (where the person was identified as being primarily AJ).

What I would caution against is seeing something like 5% West Asian and 10% Iberian at Gedmatch and saying that 23 and Me missed your Iberian and West Asian when those are parts of the components that make up the results that one is given (i.e., 55% Irish/English, 30% NW European, 15% French/German, etc.). The West Asian and Iberian at Gedmatch are likely not saying you have Spanish or Turkish ancestry, they are often from old ancestry and commonly found in the percentages I am assuming in NWestern European populations too.

Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 07:24 PM
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Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 07:34 PM
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spruithean
05-12-2018, 07:48 PM
You are 0-2% West Asian from northwest Europe? Then you are part Jew

If you not familiar with components that formed Jewish people or Slavic people or even your own people northwest Euros, then don't talk

Is this West Asian component coming from a GEDmatch calculator? On Eurogenes K13 I am 3.22% West Asian and 2.44% South Asian, but it changed again with Eurogenes K15 (1.96/2.39).

Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 07:51 PM
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Saetro
05-12-2018, 08:38 PM
Recent comments by Flint et al seem to ignore the commercial imperative.
If DNA test labs do not give people what they want, they will fail.
People test because they don't know.
And yet they judge any result by the little they think they know.
Because we all want to have confirmation of our own understanding.

23andMe customers are primarily testing for health reasons. And they are overwhelmingly from USA.
There is a common knowledge that health concerns may exist for Ashkenazi Jews so that is what they want to hear.
And that is what they get.
And they don't particularly care who the founder is except as someone who began with an interest in a health concern.
That is perception and perception is why people spend.
How do I know?
Because those who are disappointed come to me and tell me of their lack of preparation before investing and why they did and their expectations.
And these days people who just dive in are in the overwhelming majority.

And how far back do they know their family?
Not very far.
Some now don't even know their grandparents.
So, if AJ, that's all they want to hear.

And you have to be realistic.
Who is 23andMe comparing your DNA with?
Other people alive today.
And do they know where their people came from?
Some database groups have been made from anyone who turned up to give blood.
Or for treatment for a particular disease.
Some were selected as people whose grandparents were all born in the country or better within so many km of one point.

So by what right can they project back to 500 year, 1000 years ago?
And this is stuff I would really like to know.
Some of my people were in totally different places not that long before 1800 when the paper trail runs dry.
But the ethnicity results won't tell me except in very general terms.
And further back I really want to know, around 3000 years ago or so, where my Cornish Celts came from.
Comparisons with current people can get me just so far.
I need a different comparison.

So Flint, ultimately if you find a 23andMe feature does not do for you something it was never really designed to do and most customers don't want,
you might need to try something that at least tries to do so,
maybe by using one of the GEDmatch tools.
At least some of them use ancient samples that fall closer to the time period you are interested in.

Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 08:47 PM
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Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 08:53 PM
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Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 09:04 PM
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msmarjoribanks
05-12-2018, 09:36 PM
You are 0-2% West Asian from northwest Europe? Then you are part Jew

None of the tests suggest that I am (and I don't get AJ matches). Your assumption is bizarre. Lots of NW Europeans get small percentages of Caucasian or W Asian, because it's one of the components within those populations, like most European populations, and if you have a bit more than the statistical average it might show separately. Assuming it means something more than that without more evidence is to misunderstand how the tests work and what they can do.


If you not familiar with components that formed Jewish people or Slavic people or even your own people northwest Euros, then don't talk

My posts have not even been about that topic, so your response is extremely odd. My posts are about the differences between what Gedmatch does and what 23 and Me does -- one is more focused on deep ancestry (although it depends on the test), the other on more recent ancestral origin (what was the ethnicity of your recent ancestors). It's not a controversial topic, and also should not be political.

uintah106
05-12-2018, 09:48 PM
None of the tests suggest that I am (and I don't get AJ matches). Your assumption is bizarre. Lots of NW Europeans get small percentages of Caucasian or W Asian, because it's one of the components within those populations, like most European populations, and if you have a bit more than the statistical average it might show separately. Assuming it means something more than that without more evidence is to misunderstand how the tests work and what they can do.



My posts have not even been about that topic, so your response is extremely odd. My posts are about the differences between what Gedmatch does and what 23 and Me does -- one is more focused on deep ancestry (although it depends on the test), the other on more recent ancestral origin (what was the ethnicity of your recent ancestors). It's not a controversial topic, and also should not be political.

You're right. Why is jewish ancestry political?

Feiichy
05-12-2018, 09:54 PM
I don't like 23andme. Disapointing regional breakdown for a Croatian.

Gedmatch isn't perfect either, but I do like it. It is little bit outdated in my opinion, nMonte is better.

Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 10:17 PM
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Modernancientdna
05-12-2018, 10:45 PM
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JerryS.
05-13-2018, 12:45 AM
I've said many times that the for profit DNA test companies are good for getting your raw data file so it can loaded onto another site for more analytical review.

Vestri
05-13-2018, 06:34 AM
23andMe wasn't too bad, I had the test done in 2013 and recieved my results with the V3 chip which was pretty solid.
Unfortunately commerical is just that, commercial. They have to 'sell' their product, and to be honest the national ethnic breakdown is bland and nonsensical in some cases.

Gedmatch was by far the greater option for me because of the actual populations, but more recently the nMonte runs and Global 25 have proven to be the best and most accurate in regards to my known ancestry. Ancient, modern, regional, national and via my own family tree.

ianz91
05-13-2018, 09:14 AM
None of the tests suggest that I am (and I don't get AJ matches). Your assumption is bizarre. Lots of NW Europeans get small percentages of Caucasian or W Asian, because it's one of the components within those populations, like most European populations, and if you have a bit more than the statistical average it might show separately. Assuming it means something more than that without more evidence is to misunderstand how the tests work and what they can do.



My posts have not even been about that topic, so your response is extremely odd. My posts are about the differences between what Gedmatch does and what 23 and Me does -- one is more focused on deep ancestry (although it depends on the test), the other on more recent ancestral origin (what was the ethnicity of your recent ancestors). It's not a controversial topic, and also should not be political.


His comment is absurd. "Then you are part Jew" seems insulting, like he's saying it as a bad thing.

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 09:19 AM
His comment is absurd. "Then you are part Jew" seems insulting, like he's saying it as a bad thing.

Why it would be bad thing ;)

msmarjoribanks
05-13-2018, 12:36 PM
Changing the topic a bit (back to the subject of the thread), the main problem with the commercial services like Ancestry and 23 and Me is that what they are trying to do is to some degree not possible (sort out ethnic origins, especially for Americans who don't know or, perhaps, people in European countries who are wondering about immigrant ancestors they might have had), as the ability to do so accurately doesn't exist in many cases. I don't get the sense that 23 and Me oversells this to the extent Ancestry does, and I think 23 and Me's broad catch alls work better (I also like the various services that let you choose how conservative the estimate should be -- 23 and Me and LivingDNA do this, for example).

I think Gedmatch is great too, but for different things like understanding that all populations are made up of a variety of different components, and getting a chance to see lots of different approaches to the question. I think the oracle tools are even more likely to be misunderstood by people who haven't yet learned what they do, but that's simply unavoidable, and I think people who play with Gedmatch usually are more interested in learning more about how it works.

As for which I trust more -- neither, but both are interesting tools to supplement and check paper research if you understand what they can and can't do. The best check of paper research comes from confirming your tree (by showing actual DNA connections where they should be) which both can do if you use them correctly (and since that's about matches, the more the better).

Leto
05-13-2018, 06:37 PM
Some people take GM calculators literally as well *facepalm*

https://youtu.be/G8lpSXxguCY

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 08:06 PM
Some people take GM calculators literally as well *facepalm*

Gedmatch is more accurate than FTDNA autosomal reports, maybe you can be official promoter FTDNA sales team

spruithean
05-13-2018, 08:08 PM
Maybe I should also be an FTDNA promoter considering their myOrigins report seems to make sense to me and especially so when you consider the population movements within Europe. I'm not sure why ethnicity estimates are taken so literally...

Leto
05-13-2018, 09:35 PM
Gedmatch is more accurate than FTDNA autosomal reports, maybe you can be official promoter FTDNA sales team
Lol. GM has a wide array of calculators and one needs to understand how they work and that they are not equally accurate for everyone. I'm a fan of GM myself but what that woman did doesn't make any sense. She obviously doesn't know how DNA tests work.

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 09:42 PM
Lol. GM has a wide array of calculators and one needs to understand how they work and that they are not equally accurate for everyone. I'm a fan of GM myself but what that woman did doesn't make any sense. She obviously doesn't know how DNA tests work.

Tbh I didnt watch video, and yeah you right Gedmatch is not literal to be taken, but is complex program that has information to be learned. FTDNA, 23andme these are not scientific program, especially for Slavs.

Leto
05-13-2018, 09:49 PM
Tbh I didnt watch video, and yeah you right Gedmatch is not literal to be taken, but is complex program that has information to be learned. FTDNA, 23andme these are not scientific program, especially for Slavs.
Well, when I took FTDNA back in March 2017, I already knew something about commercial DNA testing and GEDmatch and my results weren't a big surprise for me. And of course I also know where my grandparents were born. I think Family Finder is not bad for us Eastern Europeans (especially Russians/East Slavs).

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 09:49 PM
Maybe I should also be an FTDNA promoter considering their myOrigins report seems to make sense to me and especially so when you consider the population movements within Europe. I'm not sure why ethnicity estimates are taken so literally...

For westerners (USA, Canada, I would even include African Americans, Latin Americans, Carribean Islanders) the big 4 company (AncestryDNA, 23andme, FTDNA, MyHeritage) estimates will be ideal suited for these populations.

Why? That who is buying most kits

Leto
05-13-2018, 09:52 PM
For westerners (USA, Canada, I would even include African Americans, Latin americans, Carribean Islanders) the big 4 company (AncestryDNA, 23andme, FTDNA, MyHeritage) estimates will be ideal suited for these populations.

Why? That who is buying most kits
FTDNA is certainly not good for Western Europeans. They confuse West & Central Europe, British Isles and Scandinavia A LOT, maybe because those are generally closely related populations.

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 09:54 PM
Well, when I took FTDNA back in March 2017, I already knew something about commercial DNA testing and GEDmatch and my results weren't a big surprise for me. And of course I also know where my grandparents were born. I think Family Finder is not bad for us Eastern Europeans (especially Russians/East Slavs).

We almost have same estimate FTDNA, when you look Gedmatch components there is huge difference you do not see? I not talking oracles but components, East Euro, Fenno-Scandian, South Baltic, Siberian, East Med, West Med, etc

Leto
05-13-2018, 09:57 PM
We almost have same estimate FTDNA, when you look Gedmatch components there is huge difference you do not see? I not talking oracles but components, East Euro, Fenno-Scandian, South Baltic, Siberian, East Med, West Med, etc
Yes, I see, but that's inevitable. GM uses a different algorithm. Maybe FTDNA will upgrade their data base in the future and their estimates will be more precise.

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 10:00 PM
FTDNA is certainly not good for Western Europeans. They confuse West & Central Europe, British Isles and Scandinavia A LOT, maybe because those are generally closely related populations.

Is good for them is geared for Americans, people who are west Euro and not left Europe not so good

That is why people from North and South Carolina USA can get 100% British Isles, and person from London England will get 20% British Isles

Leto
05-13-2018, 10:05 PM
@Modernancientdna, can you post your Eurogenes K13 results? Not Genesis, regular GM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3539-Eurogenes-K13-Results/page95

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 10:05 PM
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Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 10:21 PM
@Modernancientdna, can you post your Eurogenes K13 results? Not Genesis, regular GM
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3539-Eurogenes-K13-Results/page95

Regular Gedmatch

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.32
2 North_Atlantic 26.72
3 West_Med 10.53
4 East_Med 10.4
5 West_Asian 2.66
6 Siberian 1.79
7 Sub-Saharan 0.72
8 Amerindian 0.69
9 South_Asian 0.61
10 Oceanian 0.35
11 Red_Sea 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 5.66
2 Southwest_Russian 5.79
3 Estonian_Polish 6.63
4 South_Polish 6.8
5 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.97
6 Belorussian 7.1
7 Polish 7.24
8 Russian_Smolensk 7.42
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 7.5
10 Croatian 10.27
11 Kargopol_Russian 10.54
12 Lithuanian 11.48
13 Estonian 11.71
14 Erzya 12.4
15 Moldavian 12.98
16 Finnish 13.08
17 East_Finnish 13.51
18 Southwest_Finnish 13.75
19 Hungarian 13.86
20 East_German 16.07

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.5% Estonian_Polish + 12.5% Ashkenazi @ 3.38
2 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.44
3 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.49
4 86.6% Belorussian + 13.4% Ashkenazi @ 3.5
5 88.5% Belorussian + 11.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.5
6 88.6% Belorussian + 11.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.6
7 78.7% Lithuanian + 21.3% Ashkenazi @ 3.66
8 90.2% Estonian_Polish + 9.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.7
9 89.7% Estonian_Polish + 10.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.72
10 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.73
11 84.1% Belorussian + 15.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.76
12 90.3% Estonian_Polish + 9.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.77
13 85.4% Estonian_Polish + 14.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.79
14 87.9% Estonian_Polish + 12.1% West_Sicilian @ 3.8
15 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.82
16 88.9% Estonian_Polish + 11.1% South_Italian @ 3.84
17 87.9% Belorussian + 12.1% South_Italian @ 3.87
18 89.5% Belorussian + 10.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.88
19 88.2% Estonian_Polish + 11.8% East_Sicilian @ 3.89
20 79.6% Belorussian + 20.4% Bulgarian @ 3.9


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +50% Croatian @ 5.742698


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +25% Bulgarian +25% Lithuanian @ 4.587320


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.582583
2 Belorussian + Belorussian + Bulgarian + Lithuanian @ 4.587320
3 Ashkenazi + Estonian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.587453
4 Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian @ 4.624876
5 Belorussian + Belorussian + Belorussian + Bulgarian @ 4.653677
6 Belorussian + Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish @ 4.660878
7 Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian @ 4.719645
8 Belorussian + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.729737
9 Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish @ 4.742739
10 Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Serbian @ 4.827003
11 Belorussian + Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Romanian @ 4.840848
12 Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Serbian @ 4.846250
13 Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian + Estonian_Polish @ 4.860717
14 Estonian_Polish + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.872624
15 Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Romanian @ 4.874240
16 Belorussian + Belorussian + Belorussian + Romanian @ 4.874529
17 Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.875773
18 Estonian + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.876077
19 Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish @ 4.879661
20 Belorussian + Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Serbian @ 4.880913

Leto
05-13-2018, 11:07 PM
Regular Gedmatch

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.32
2 North_Atlantic 26.72
3 West_Med 10.53
4 East_Med 10.4
5 West_Asian 2.66
6 Siberian 1.79
7 Sub-Saharan 0.72
8 Amerindian 0.69
9 South_Asian 0.61
10 Oceanian 0.35
11 Red_Sea 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian 5.66
2 Southwest_Russian 5.79
3 Estonian_Polish 6.63
4 South_Polish 6.8
5 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.97
6 Belorussian 7.1
7 Polish 7.24
8 Russian_Smolensk 7.42
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 7.5
10 Croatian 10.27
11 Kargopol_Russian 10.54
12 Lithuanian 11.48
13 Estonian 11.71
14 Erzya 12.4
15 Moldavian 12.98
16 Finnish 13.08
17 East_Finnish 13.51
18 Southwest_Finnish 13.75
19 Hungarian 13.86
20 East_German 16.07

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.5% Estonian_Polish + 12.5% Ashkenazi @ 3.38
2 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.44
3 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.49
4 86.6% Belorussian + 13.4% Ashkenazi @ 3.5
5 88.5% Belorussian + 11.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.5
6 88.6% Belorussian + 11.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.6
7 78.7% Lithuanian + 21.3% Ashkenazi @ 3.66
8 90.2% Estonian_Polish + 9.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.7
9 89.7% Estonian_Polish + 10.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.72
10 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.73
11 84.1% Belorussian + 15.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.76
12 90.3% Estonian_Polish + 9.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.77
13 85.4% Estonian_Polish + 14.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.79
14 87.9% Estonian_Polish + 12.1% West_Sicilian @ 3.8
15 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.82
16 88.9% Estonian_Polish + 11.1% South_Italian @ 3.84
17 87.9% Belorussian + 12.1% South_Italian @ 3.87
18 89.5% Belorussian + 10.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.88
19 88.2% Estonian_Polish + 11.8% East_Sicilian @ 3.89
20 79.6% Belorussian + 20.4% Bulgarian @ 3.9


Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +50% Croatian @ 5.742698


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian +25% Bulgarian +25% Lithuanian @ 4.587320


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Ashkenazi + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.582583
2 Belorussian + Belorussian + Bulgarian + Lithuanian @ 4.587320
3 Ashkenazi + Estonian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.587453
4 Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian @ 4.624876
5 Belorussian + Belorussian + Belorussian + Bulgarian @ 4.653677
6 Belorussian + Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish @ 4.660878
7 Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Lithuanian @ 4.719645
8 Belorussian + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.729737
9 Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish @ 4.742739
10 Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Serbian @ 4.827003
11 Belorussian + Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Romanian @ 4.840848
12 Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Serbian @ 4.846250
13 Belorussian + Bulgarian + Estonian + Estonian_Polish @ 4.860717
14 Estonian_Polish + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.872624
15 Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Romanian @ 4.874240
16 Belorussian + Belorussian + Belorussian + Romanian @ 4.874529
17 Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.875773
18 Estonian + Greek_Thessaly + Lithuanian + Lithuanian @ 4.876077
19 Bulgarian + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish + Estonian_Polish @ 4.879661
20 Belorussian + Belorussian + Estonian_Polish + Serbian @ 4.880913
You do have a slightly elevated percentage of East Med. However, generally you're still well within the East European spectrum. After all, 10% East Med is not the same as 10% SSA or East Asian.

Modernancientdna
05-13-2018, 11:28 PM
East Med Polish Avg= 3.7%
Me= 10.4%

Leto
05-14-2018, 04:06 PM
East Med Polish Avg= 3.7%
Me= 10.4%
South_Polish - 6.22%
West_Ukrainian - 5.29%

Archimedes
05-14-2018, 11:51 PM
South_Polish - 6.22%
West_Ukrainian - 5.29%

Hmmm.... My unknown father was supposedly, fully or half Italian

here are my k13 genesis results. East Med % seems quite low, though West Med seems a bit elevated?

Population
North_Atlantic 52.54 Pct
Baltic 23.70 Pct
West_Med 12.84 Pct
West_Asian 5.16 Pct
East_Med 2.62 Pct
Red_Sea 0.82 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.22 Pct
Amerindian 0.77 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.31 Pct

JerryS.
05-15-2018, 12:25 AM
Hmmm.... My unknown father was supposedly, fully or half Italian

here are my k13 genesis results. East Med % seems quite low, though West Med seems a bit elevated?

Population
North_Atlantic 52.54 Pct
Baltic 23.70 Pct
West_Med 12.84 Pct
West_Asian 5.16 Pct
East_Med 2.62 Pct
Red_Sea 0.82 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.22 Pct
Amerindian 0.77 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.31 Pct

if you want a good calculator for minor amounts of Italian try Dodecad V3 and MDLP K23b. Eurogenes seems to have a little trouble with it...

Archimedes
05-15-2018, 12:37 AM
if you want a good calculator for minor amounts of Italian try Dodecad V3 and MDLP K23b. Eurogenes seems to have a little trouble with it...

Zero % Italian in every calc I've tried. I'm now waiting on my Ancestry.com results.

msmarjoribanks
05-15-2018, 10:40 AM
Did you do the FTDNA Y-DNA test? I am curious what your matches there will show.

ianz91
05-15-2018, 01:10 PM
Some people are worried about the major DNA testing companies and their accuracy, even GEDMTACH is seen with skepticism, but that's not the only thing you have to worry about as this woman finds out


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fS8nPo21Dg

RVBLAKE
05-15-2018, 01:24 PM
My Scandinavian with FTDNA is 36%, Ancestry is 3%, 23andMe is 4.9%, and MyHeritage is 5.7%. Gencove is 33%, and GenePlaza is either 32.7% from Ancestry or 43.5% from 23andMe. Quite a mix. The only paper trail Scandi I have is a great-grandmother from Denmark, which 23andMe correctly identified.

Modernancientdna
05-15-2018, 07:01 PM
23andme updated

Modernancientdna
05-16-2018, 05:20 AM
Genetic Community

msmarjoribanks
05-16-2018, 04:19 PM
My Scandinavian with FTDNA is 36%, Ancestry is 3%, 23andMe is 4.9%, and MyHeritage is 5.7%. Gencove is 33%, and GenePlaza is either 32.7% from Ancestry or 43.5% from 23andMe. Quite a mix. The only paper trail Scandi I have is a great-grandmother from Denmark, which 23andMe correctly identified.

Scandinavian seems to be all over the place.

I get 28% with Ancestry, 7.5% (with another 1.5% Finnish) from MyHeritage (Ancestry upload), or 10% (with another 1.5% Baltic) from MyHeritage (FTDNA upload), but 0% from FTDNA, 1% from 23 and Me and no dots (although lots of broadly NW European), and 10.8% from LivingDNA.

In reality I know I have a great-grandparent who was born only shortly after both parents immigrated from Sweden, so number is around 12.5% (give or take, since who knows how much I inherited in fact). There's no question of an NPE, as I get lots of matches on that line, including in Sweden, and my mother gets more.

Mixed
05-16-2018, 04:42 PM
I don't trust either one. 23&me counted approx. 40% of my dna as nonspecific. Gedmatch calcs readings change more than I do my underwear. There are good features about both but I also notice many flaws. I like DNA Tribes SNP Analysis the best by far.

RVBLAKE
05-18-2018, 11:18 AM
I have documented English ancestry on my paternal side going to the last quarter of the 16th Century, Mother's paternal is English although I can't trace it beyond the middle of the 19th Century. FTDNA completely ignores British, gives me 62% West/Central European and 36% Scandi, that's it. Ancestry says 76% English (seems high) and 23andMe says 41%. i suppose British and Scandi is interwoven, my English ancestry is from the Danelaw.

Thracian88
05-18-2018, 01:52 PM
I don't trust either one. 23&me counted approx. 40% of my dna as nonspecific. Gedmatch calcs readings change more than I do my underwear. There are good features about both but I also notice many flaws. I like DNA Tribes SNP Analysis the best by far.

DNA tribes is ok but it is not better than 23andMe. They still need more samples. Here is my TOP10,

Rank Population Map Area
1 Gagauz Moldova Europe
2 Tuscany Italy Europe
3 Hungary Europe
4 Slovakia Europe
5 Belgium Europe
6 Croatia Europe
7 Slovenia Europe
8 Serbia Europe
9 Moldavia Europe
10 Bulgaria Europe

So I got too many weird countries in my list. All Balkan countries are logical but e.g Belgium is kinda weird.

Mixed
05-18-2018, 01:59 PM
DNA tribes is ok but it is not better than 23andMe. They still need more samples. Here is my TOP10,

Rank Population Map Area
1 Gagauz Moldova Europe
2 Tuscany Italy Europe
3 Hungary Europe
4 Slovakia Europe
5 Belgium Europe
6 Croatia Europe
7 Slovenia Europe
8 Serbia Europe
9 Moldavia Europe
10 Bulgaria Europe

So I got too many weird countries in my list. All Balkan countries are logical but e.g Belgium is kinda weird.


Uh, it's a known fact it is MUCH better than 23&me. What is your point of providing your countries of ancestry in this thread when we are discussing ethnicity calcs?

Thracian88
05-18-2018, 02:11 PM
Uh, it's a known fact it is MUCH better than 23&me. What is your point of providing your countries of ancestry in this thread when we are discussing ethnicity calcs?

Aren't they related? Do they calculate it according to ethnicity calcs? I could be wrong just asking.

Mixed
05-18-2018, 03:06 PM
Aren't they related? Do they calculate it according to ethnicity calcs? I could be wrong just asking.

Sure but still different. Read a lot of the threads here. I learned A LOT here just reading.

msmarjoribanks
05-18-2018, 03:10 PM
I have documented English ancestry on my paternal side going to the last quarter of the 16th Century, Mother's paternal is English although I can't trace it beyond the middle of the 19th Century. FTDNA completely ignores British, gives me 62% West/Central European and 36% Scandi, that's it. Ancestry says 76% English (seems high) and 23andMe says 41%. i suppose British and Scandi is interwoven, my English ancestry is from the Danelaw.

That's interesting, mine is the opposite. I get 83% British Isles from FTDNA, but 4% Great Britain, 19% Irish, Scots, Welsh from Ancestry. (The truth is in-between, but closer to the FTDNA number.) Living DNA says 77%, 23 and Me says 56%, but then I get an additional 31% broadly NW Europe, some of which is British Isles too. My only 5 dot result is English (one dot for Irish, one dot for German, no more dots, they don't pick up the Swedish).

Anyway, there's a thread on British results from Ancestry, and getting Europe West or extra Scandinavian is common there, as is the reverse (people with no UK ancestry getting it).

RVBLAKE
05-19-2018, 12:28 PM
I forgot about the dots with 23andMe. I get 3 dots for English, 1 apiece for German and Irish, and 2 for Danish. But I only get 4.9% Danish in the percentage. Go figure.

Mixed
05-19-2018, 02:00 PM
I forgot about the dots with 23andMe. I get 3 dots for English, 1 apiece for German and Irish, and 2 for Danish. But I only get 4.9% Danish in the percentage. Go figure.

That dot system is terribly flawed. Also, I have some South Asian ancestry. They do not get specific as far as location. I have several Chinese matches but do not have any from other Asian countries. You would think common sense would kick in and 23&me would properly assign it to China.

JerryS.
05-19-2018, 04:24 PM
I guess I never answered the question posed. simply id accept the GEDmatch over any of the for profits. the reason being is that GEDmatch offers various models for you to run your data through to see which one makes the most sense (even if you don't like it). the for profits you are stuck with the one version they used for you.

Tz85
05-19-2018, 04:58 PM
DNA tribes is ok but it is not better than 23andMe. They still need more samples. Here is my TOP10,

Rank Population Map Area
1 Gagauz Moldova Europe
2 Tuscany Italy Europe
3 Hungary Europe
4 Slovakia Europe
5 Belgium Europe
6 Croatia Europe
7 Slovenia Europe
8 Serbia Europe
9 Moldavia Europe
10 Bulgaria Europe

So I got too many weird countries in my list. All Balkan countries are logical but e.g Belgium is kinda weird.

Lol DNA Tribes snp has much more samples than 23andme.

ianz91
05-19-2018, 05:08 PM
I guess I never answered the question posed. simply id accept the GEDmatch over any of the for profits. the reason being is that GEDmatch offers various models for you to run your data through to see which one makes the most sense (even if you don't like it). the for profits you are stuck with the one version they used for you.


The problem I have with GEDMATCH is that they need to update their calculators, most of them are outdated.

Thracian88
05-19-2018, 05:50 PM
Lol DNA Tribes snp has much more samples than 23andme.

Where did you get this info? If you don't mind could you shareit with me? I asked them but they wrote me that Population mixture is not as precise as the other mixture calculations presented due to lower sample sizes, etc. But it does show which populations when considered in aggregate mimic your genetic make-up the closest.

Tz85
05-19-2018, 06:00 PM
Where did you get this info? If you don't mind could you shareit with me? I asked them but they wrote me that Population mixture is not as precise as the other mixture calculations presented due to lower sample sizes, etc. But it does show which populations when considered in aggregate mimic your genetic make-up the closest.

From their website. 23andme has no where near 400+ individual populations.

DNA Tribes® SNP reports include:
Your admixture percentages for eight continent cores, 53 regional clusters (unique to DNA Tribes®) and 400+ individual populations in our SNP reference database
Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) plots for visualizing your connections to the continent cores, regional clusters and individual populations
Total genome fit that compares your DNA to 400+ populations in our SNP reference database
Genome grid world map that illustrates the geographical distribution of your ancestral components

Thracian88
05-19-2018, 06:04 PM
From their website. 23andme has no where near 400+ individual populations.

DNA Tribes® SNP reports include:
Your admixture percentages for eight continent cores, 53 regional clusters (unique to DNA Tribes®) and 400+ individual populations in our SNP reference database
Multi-dimensional scaling (MDS) plots for visualizing your connections to the continent cores, regional clusters and individual populations
Total genome fit that compares your DNA to 400+ populations in our SNP reference database
Genome grid world map that illustrates the geographical distribution of your ancestral components

Thank you very much

JerryS.
05-19-2018, 06:14 PM
The problem I have with GEDMATCH is that they need to update their calculators, most of them are outdated.

the temporary genesis results I found were pretty good for me, but they've since defaulted back to the same results as the original results.

digital_noise
05-20-2018, 11:20 PM
I guess I never answered the question posed. simply id accept the GEDmatch over any of the for profits. the reason being is that GEDmatch offers various models for you to run your data through to see which one makes the most sense (even if you don't like it). the for profits you are stuck with the one version they used for you.

the problem i see with that is the with ancestry/23/me you dont need to have a clue what your back ground is. The just tell you and you go on your merry way. With Gedmatch , if I didnt already know my background, I would be lost.

For most people, seeing what 23/Me or Ancestry says is enough and they go on their merry way.

JerryS.
05-21-2018, 12:02 AM
the problem i see with that is the with ancestry/23/me you dont need to have a clue what your back ground is. The just tell you and you go on your merry way. With Gedmatch , if I didnt already know my background, I would be lost.

For most people, seeing what 23/Me or Ancestry says is enough and they go on their merry way.

the for profit results are just enough to be dangerous for people of mixed ancestry. they are good for getting a raw data file though so further examination cane be done.

Sizzles
05-21-2018, 08:21 PM
23 and me is processing my dna now, will it take a full 6 to 8 weeks? Curious

JosephK
05-21-2018, 08:47 PM
23 and me is processing my dna now, will it take a full 6 to 8 weeks? Curious

Absolutely. Mine took 16 weeks... after 8 weeks they apologized and said they'd have to do it again; my wife's and my sister's took about 7 weeks.

So, forget about it for now... let it come as a surprise in several months!

JosephK
05-21-2018, 08:52 PM
Duplicate Post-see #321... What, I can't delete my own post?

Yeah, if you don't have any idea what you are, or what a certain part of you is, you're not going to find out with the commercial results.

What I don't understand is why they (23andme, Ancestry, whoever) don't ask you what you think--or know-- you are first, and then they could try to estimate what else you may be...

As JerryS noted, if you're at all 'mixed', they have no way of knowing... Ancestry may call you Iberian, while 23andme may call you Ashkenazi, etc...

JosephK
05-21-2018, 08:52 PM
the for profit results are just enough to be dangerous for people of mixed ancestry. they are good for getting a raw data file though so further examination cane be done.

Yeah, if you don't have any idea what you are, or what a certain part of you is, you're not going to find out with the commercial results.

What I don't understand is why they (23andme, Ancestry, whoever) don't ask you what you think--or know-- you are first, and then they could try to estimate what else you may be...

As JerryS noted, if you're at all 'mixed', they have no way of knowing... Ancestry may call you Iberian, while 23andme may call you Ashkenazi, etc...

Sizzles
05-21-2018, 09:20 PM
Ugh, Good grief! 8 weeks or longer. Thank for your reply

Idwaajeden
05-23-2018, 07:07 AM
Hello, how can I download 23andme NCBI Build 37 raw data and upload to MyHeritage.com?

Vashti
05-30-2018, 08:22 PM
I tried to post a link to a walkthrough for downloading data but not allowed to post links?!

yer_sister
06-09-2018, 04:25 AM
My father born in Italy and looks Middle Eastern aka South West Asian even Turkish or Arab like some Italians do. My mom is from Ireland and her dad is Jewish. Not much Ashkenazi Jewish showed up for me when I ran the Jtest on GEDmatch and zero on 23andme. However, Baltic showed up and he is from Germany. Also GEDmatch did show Eastern Mediterranean, and West Asia, which could be Israel, but that might be Greece or Turkey it doesn't really pinpoint exactly where. And on 23andme the Irish was heavily skewed almost 60%! My kit was done in 3 days so perhaps they rushed with the analyzing for Mother's Day or something.

I feel GEDmatch is much more accurate.

I think 23andme is good to get the raw data then upload to GEDmatch and go with the results on GEDmatch because 23andme gave such a broad description and didn't catch my Mediterranean much.

===================================
They say for most Europeans the Eurogenes K13 model is the most accurate:

My GEDmatch results: Eurogenes K13 model:

38% North Atlantic (Irish-Celtic, England, French, parts of Spain & Portugal)

22% Baltic (german/Austrian/alps?) Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Russia, and Sweden)

20% west med (Italian, Spanish) (Specifically Spain, France, Monaco, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, Greece and Turkey).

14% east med ( Cyprus, Greece, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Israel, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan )

6% west Asian (Afghanistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Cyprus, Gaza Strip, Georgia, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, West Bank and Yemen)

==============================

Now, the calculations from 23andme:

Irish 58%
French/German 8%
Italian 5%
Iberian 2.3%
Sardinian .3%
Scandanavian .3%
Broadly NW Europe 17%
Broadly Southern Europe 5.6%
Broadly European 3%

Broadly means they don't have enough data for my specific areas to be able to determine, whereas GEDmatch does. So 23andme good to get raw data then go on over to GEDmatch is my recommendation. I guess it matters who is doing the final report over at 23andme, in my case they did the raw data well but just not able to determine my lineage, ancestry, etc. But GEDmatch and this French calculator I've listed below) did.

=====================================

There's another good calculator you can do called "Taux de similitude avec différentes populations," first you run Eurogenics 36 in GEDmatch then manually enter those results in the spaces at "Taux de similitude avec différentes populations" page.

anthrogenic doesn't allow me to post links, but just google this phrase below and it will be the first one in the results, the actual page is right there and you can't miss it: (part of it is in French but there is some English, you'll get it though, took me a little white to figure it out but I eventually did).


Taux de similitude avec différentes populations

=====================================
After "Taux de similitude avec différentes populations" calculates it will tell you the percentage of relatives you would have left on the map if you removed one of the countries, you do this for each country. For example "China" gave me 100% (meaning that if I removed China from the mix I'd have 100% ancestors/relatives still on the map). If I remove Venice Italy, I would only have 22% ancestors/relatives still left on the map, which means a lot of my relatives/ancestors match the DNA of Venice. My highest percentages were: (I only used percentages between 0-27), there were a lot of 30s 40s 50s but I narrowed it down to the least percentage, meaning the most DNA I share with those countries). Less = means MOST DNA shared, in this calculator. It's a tedious process of elimination. But for me was very accurate.

Unfortunately not much directions come with it, so you'll just have to put in your figures you get from GEDmatch Eurogenics 36 and one by one click each country to remove. I didn't bother looking at the map; as I'd remove each country, I just noted the percentage of relatives/ancestors left on the map. But it showed me enough to know it seems quite accurate for me. It literally pegged the Swiss whereas even GEDmatch only generally got that area.

Italy 17% (if removed from the list, I'd have only 17% relatives/ancestors still on the list, which means most of mine are from ITALY)

Swiss 18% this is accurate because where my grandfather is from used to be Switzerland, it is now Italian alps.
Austria 25% This is accurate too because part of the alps used to be Austria too.

France 15% This is the one I have the most even more than Italian, where my father is from is only a few hours away from France.

Spain 22%
Portugal 22%

Ireland 27% Mom from Ireland so this is accurate

These 3 were not in the top 0-27 but does show me that is where my East Mediterranean and West Asia is from:
(Turkey 30%)
(Greece, Macedonia 30%)
Ashkenazi Jewish 40%) Israel?

Remember, the LOWER the percentage the closer the relative.

So for example, if I removed Greece I would still have 70% ancestors/relatives on the map

This seems very accurate. My father's dad is from Italy which used to be the Swiss Alps (now is Italy). His mom is Italian and apparently carried DNA Spanish and Greek and Turkish.

There's also another test on there for Eurogenes K15

Modèle Eurasian/Afrique

That one gives you a less confusing map.

============================================

Anyway, I'm satisfied with 23andme doing the raw data but I don't think they were able to do much for me, GEDmatch was able to give me regions.

Hope this helps!

p.s. for those who get confused on the Italian, French, Swiss connection, the entire area of the ALPS are all the same peoples and Spain very close to France.

But to those that say North Italians do not have Greek or West Asian, you are wrong. WE DO. Greek is all over mine and I am not even 100% Italian heritage. It all depends on where your Italian relatives/ancestors were from. Even Italians from the North obviously can have Greek or Mediterranean, just depends on where they migrated from. In my case although my dad's dad was from the Alps--this is the extreme north of Italy and used to be Switzerland for over 800 years; his mom was from the North also but her ancestors were from more Mediterranean areas of Italy and even Spain, Portugal, France and sure enough I carried that Greek and/or Western Asian too.

So please stop saying only Southern Italians carry Greek and/or Western Asian DNA because it is just not true. It depends on where their ancestors were from, but even in North Italy we got a lot of peoples from Rome and all over. It really all depends on what DNA YOU personally carry. My sister could have a different mix than me, we all don't carry the same exact percentages.

JerryS.
06-09-2018, 05:08 AM
My father born in Italy and looks Middle Eastern aka South West Asian even Turkish or Arab like some Italians do. My mom is from Ireland and her dad is Jewish. Not much Ashkenazi Jewish showed up for me when I ran the Jtest on GEDmatch and zero on 23andme. However, Baltic showed up and he is from Germany. Also GEDmatch did show Eastern Mediterranean, and West Asia, which could be Israel, but that might be Greece or Turkey it doesn't really pinpoint exactly where. And on 23andme the Irish was heavily skewed almost 60%! My kit was done in 3 days so perhaps they rushed with the analyzing for Mother's Day or something.

I feel GEDmatch is much more accurate.

I think 23andme is good to get the raw data then upload to GEDmatch and go with the results on GEDmatch because 23andme gave such a broad description and didn't catch my Mediterranean much.

===================================
They say for most Europeans the Eurogenes K13 model is the most accurate:

My GEDmatch results: Eurogenes K13 model:

38% North Atlantic (Irish-Celtic, England, French, parts of Spain & Portugal)

22% Baltic (german/Austrian/alps?) Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Finland, Germany, Lithuania, Poland, Russia, and Sweden)

20% west med (Italian, Spanish) (Specifically Spain, France, Monaco, Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, Greece and Turkey).

14% east med ( Cyprus, Greece, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Israel, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan )

6% west Asian (Afghanistan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bahrain, Cyprus, Gaza Strip, Georgia, Iran (Islamic Republic of), Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syrian Arab Republic, Turkey, United Arab Emirates, West Bank and Yemen)

==============================

Now, the calculations from 23andme:

Irish 58%
French/German 8%
Italian 5%
Iberian 2.3%
Sardinian .3%
Scandanavian .3%
Broadly NW Europe 17%
Broadly Southern Europe 5.6%
Broadly European 3%

Broadly means they don't have enough data for my specific areas to be able to determine, whereas GEDmatch does. So 23andme good to get raw data then go on over to GEDmatch is my recommendation. I guess it matters who is doing the final report over at 23andme, in my case they did the raw data well but just not able to determine my lineage, ancestry, etc. But GEDmatch and this French calculator I've listed below) did.

=====================================

There's another good calculator you can do called "Taux de similitude avec différentes populations," first you run Eurogenics 36 in GEDmatch then manually enter those results in the spaces at "Taux de similitude avec différentes populations" page.

anthrogenic doesn't allow me to post links, but just google this phrase below and it will be the first one in the results, the actual page is right there and you can't miss it: (part of it is in French but there is some English, you'll get it though, took me a little white to figure it out but I eventually did).


Taux de similitude avec différentes populations

=====================================
After "Taux de similitude avec différentes populations" calculates it will tell you the percentage of relatives you would have left on the map if you removed one of the countries, you do this for each country. For example "China" gave me 100% (meaning that if I removed China from the mix I'd have 100% ancestors/relatives still on the map). If I remove Venice Italy, I would only have 22% ancestors/relatives still left on the map, which means a lot of my relatives/ancestors match the DNA of Venice. My highest percentages were: (I only used percentages between 0-27), there were a lot of 30s 40s 50s but I narrowed it down to the least percentage, meaning the most DNA I share with those countries). Less = means MOST DNA shared, in this calculator. It's a tedious process of elimination. But for me was very accurate.

Unfortunately not much directions come with it, so you'll just have to put in your figures you get from GEDmatch Eurogenics 36 and one by one click each country to remove. I didn't bother looking at the map; as I'd remove each country, I just noted the percentage of relatives/ancestors left on the map. But it showed me enough to know it seems quite accurate for me. It literally pegged the Swiss whereas even GEDmatch only generally got that area.

Italy 17% (if removed from the list, I'd have only 17% relatives/ancestors still on the list, which means most of mine are from ITALY)

Swiss 18% this is accurate because where my grandfather is from used to be Switzerland, it is now Italian alps.
Austria 25% This is accurate too because part of the alps used to be Austria too.

France 15% This is the one I have the most even more than Italian, where my father is from is only a few hours away from France.

Spain 22%
Portugal 22%

Ireland 27% Mom from Ireland so this is accurate

These 3 were not in the top 0-27 but does show me that is where my East Mediterranean and West Asia is from:
(Turkey 30%)
(Greece, Macedonia 30%)
Ashkenazi Jewish 40%) Israel?

Remember, the LOWER the percentage the closer the relative.

So for example, if I removed Greece I would still have 70% ancestors/relatives on the map

This seems very accurate. My father's dad is from Italy which used to be the Swiss Alps (now is Italy). His mom is Italian and apparently Spanish

Anyway, I'm satisfied with 23andme doing the raw data but I don't think they were able to do much for me, GEDmatch was able to give me regions.

Hope this helps!

p.s. for those who get confused on the Italian, French, Swiss connection, the entire area of the ALPS are all the same peoples and Spain very close to France.

But to those that say North Italians do not have Greek or West Asian, you are wrong. WE DO. Greek is all over mine and I am not even 100% Italian heritage. It all depends on where your Italian relatives/ancestors were from. Even Italians from the North obviously can have Greek or Mediterranean, just depends on where they migrated from. In my case although my dad's dad was from the Alps--this is the extreme north of Italy and used to be Switzerland for over 800 years; his mom was from the North also but her ancestors were from more Mediterranean areas of Italy and even Spain, Portugal, France and sure enough I carried that Greek and/or Western Asian too.

So please stop saying only Southern Italians carry Greek and/or Western Asian DNA because it is just not true. It depends on where their ancestors were from, but even in North Italy we got a lot of peoples from Rome and all over.

in my experience here, I find that Eurogenes is best for N./N.W./N.E. ethnicities. Dodecad (V3 in particular) is best for Mediterranean Ethnicities, and MDLP (K23b in particular) best for Balkan groups. you are regionally mixed as am I, so I'd ask you to run your data through those other models to see if they are consistent with what you know.

msmarjoribanks
06-09-2018, 11:39 AM
That 23 and Me admits that it's not currently possible to know more than "broadly NW Europe" in some cases (or to some extent) is actually a plus for them, IMO -- Ancestry doesn't do that and mixes up Scandinavian and French and English and German all the time. Maybe "Europe West" is supposed to be Ancestry's broadly NW Europe category, but they should be clearer.

I see no reason to think Gedmatch can sort those out better, even though their calculators try to. I also suspect their population numbers from which the oracles work are based on v. low sample size and they don't have information on the source of those.

K36 in particular can be misleading because having, say, "Italian" or "Iberian" doesn't mean you have ancestry from Italy or the Iberian Peninsula -- it's talking about specific kinds of components they can supposedly recognize that peak in those regions.

Re Northern Italians having West Asian, of course they do. The spreadsheet for K13 gives 6.90% as the average West Asian results for someone from Northern Italy. But to put that in context, the average West Asian percentage (on K13) for someone from Ireland is 6.32% -- this is a component found at different levels generally in most Europeans.

digital_noise
06-09-2018, 05:40 PM
was your father Italian, born in Italy? I find it hard to believe you would score 14% East Med and 6% West Asian and 23 and Me only shows you at 5%?

**Edit--nevermind I missed the part about being close to France etc...

Thisisme
06-20-2018, 04:42 AM
I did the 23andme test for fun believing my whole life that I’m German, Irish and Welsh. While waiting for my results (it took 2 ½ weeks, faster than I expected) I asked my parents some questions since all of my Grandparents have passed on. Surprisingly, I found out I had a Maternal Great Grandfather that was from France, my Paternal Grandfather who was Welsh may also have been Dutch, and according to my Father, my Grandmas background was a bit of a mystery. I knew the town in North Carolina she was from had a history with Spain so I was curious what I’d see, if anything in that regards.

23andme Results:

British & Irish - 45.7%
United Kingdom
French & German - 37.6%
Netherlands
Iberian - 1.0%
Broadly NW European - 14.0%
Broadly Southern European - 0.2%
Broadly European - 1.2%
Sub-Saharan African - 0.2%
Broadly Sub-Saharan African - 0.2%
Native American - 0.1%
Western Asian/North African - 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian/North African - 0.1%

I changed the confidence level and at 70% the only ones to become “unassigned” are the African percentages. Change again to 80% and then Native American becomes “unassigned”. Change to 90% and everything turns to “broadly”.
According to 23andme, my Parent, GP or GGP was 100% French (one correct result) and another GGP 100% Irish which I believe is correct but he was adopted so I can't be certain. I also have a GGP in the 1800’s that was 100% Iberian and another GGP in the 1700’s that was 100% Native American. So to confuse myself even more I upload my raw data to gedmatch (and yes, I know about all the “noise” but it’s there so I listened). The pie charts for each of these gave slightly different percentages.

Eurogenes K13 Proportions:

North_Atlantic - 43.82%
Baltic - 19.80%
West_Med - 18.30%
West_Asian - 2.03%
East_Med - 10.64%
Red_Sea - 1.50%
South_Asian - 2.09%
East_Asian - .24%
Siberian - .01%
Amerindian - .98%
Oceanian - 1.35%
Northeast_African - .56%
Sub-Saharan - .30%


Eurogenes K36 Proportions:

Amerindian -.55%
Arabian -1.18%
Armenian -.08%
Basque - 4.94%
Central_Euro - 6.3%
East_African - .12%
East_Balkan - 5.93%
East_Central_Asian - 4.56%
East_Med - 1.20%
Eastern_Euro - 4.86%
Fennoscandian - 5.59%
French - 11.48%
Iberian - 5.98%
Italian - 9.42%
Near_Eastern - 1.44%
North_African - .83%
North_Atlantic - 11.65%
North_Caucasian - 2.02%
North_Sea - 12.84%
Northeast_African - .16%
Oceanian - .25%
Omotic - .40%
South_Asian - .45%
Volga_Ural - 1.87%
West_Caucasian - .04%
West_Med - 5.25%

Then being curious I picked another one, Africa9 Admixture:

Europe - 68.83%
NW_Africa - 9.59%
SW_Asia - 21.46%
S_Africa - .12%

And another, Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer too:

Anatolian Farmer - 4.58%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer - 49.85%
Middle Eastern Herder - 3.66%
South American Hunter Gatherer - .58%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer - .99%
East African Pastoralist - .37%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - .24%
Mediterranean Farmer - 39.72%

So basically my confusion is at an entirely new level with all of these varying location names, percentages and how did they get this or why is that not showing up. I have no clue whatsoever what all these numbers even mean. Where did all my other stuff go besides 23andme’s usual British, Irish, French and German categories that everyone seems to be put in? Oh well, my Mom says I’m genetically eclectic, and I think I will probably just go with that.

JosephK
06-20-2018, 05:17 PM
So basically my confusion is at an entirely new level with all of these varying location names, percentages and how did they get this or why is that not showing up. I have no clue whatsoever what all these numbers even mean. Where did all my other stuff go besides 23andme’s usual British, Irish, French and German categories that everyone seems to be put in? Oh well, my Mom says I’m genetically eclectic, and I think I will probably just go with that.

All of those different percentages of those different regions essentially represent the 'geographic regional makeup of your ethnic makeup'... and nothing really stands out from being reasonable results for how you described your ethnic background... except the South Asian in your k13 results seems sort-of elevated? But if you compare the results with the ethnic samples on the spreadsheets available for each of your heritage ethnic groups, you'll see that they share similar proportions. Does this make sense?

JerryS.
06-20-2018, 08:57 PM
I did the 23andme test for fun believing my whole life that I’m German, Irish and Welsh. While waiting for my results (it took 2 ½ weeks, faster than I expected) I asked my parents some questions since all of my Grandparents have passed on. Surprisingly, I found out I had a Maternal Great Grandfather that was from France, my Paternal Grandfather who was Welsh may also have been Dutch, and according to my Father, my Grandmas background was a bit of a mystery. I knew the town in North Carolina she was from had a history with Spain so I was curious what I’d see, if anything in that regards.

23andme Results:

British & Irish - 45.7%
United Kingdom
French & German - 37.6%
Netherlands
Iberian - 1.0%
Broadly NW European - 14.0%
Broadly Southern European - 0.2%
Broadly European - 1.2%
Sub-Saharan African - 0.2%
Broadly Sub-Saharan African - 0.2%
Native American - 0.1%
Western Asian/North African - 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian/North African - 0.1%

I changed the confidence level and at 70% the only ones to become “unassigned” are the African percentages. Change again to 80% and then Native American becomes “unassigned”. Change to 90% and everything turns to “broadly”.
According to 23andme, my Parent, GP or GGP was 100% French (one correct result) and another GGP 100% Irish which I believe is correct but he was adopted so I can't be certain. I also have a GGP in the 1800’s that was 100% Iberian and another GGP in the 1700’s that was 100% Native American. So to confuse myself even more I upload my raw data to gedmatch (and yes, I know about all the “noise” but it’s there so I listened). The pie charts for each of these gave slightly different percentages.

Eurogenes K13 Proportions:

North_Atlantic - 43.82%
Baltic - 19.80%
West_Med - 18.30%
West_Asian - 2.03%
East_Med - 10.64%
Red_Sea - 1.50%
South_Asian - 2.09%
East_Asian - .24%
Siberian - .01%
Amerindian - .98%
Oceanian - 1.35%
Northeast_African - .56%
Sub-Saharan - .30%


Eurogenes K36 Proportions:

Amerindian -.55%
Arabian -1.18%
Armenian -.08%
Basque - 4.94%
Central_Euro - 6.3%
East_African - .12%
East_Balkan - 5.93%
East_Central_Asian - 4.56%
East_Med - 1.20%
Eastern_Euro - 4.86%
Fennoscandian - 5.59%
French - 11.48%
Iberian - 5.98%
Italian - 9.42%
Near_Eastern - 1.44%
North_African - .83%
North_Atlantic - 11.65%
North_Caucasian - 2.02%
North_Sea - 12.84%
Northeast_African - .16%
Oceanian - .25%
Omotic - .40%
South_Asian - .45%
Volga_Ural - 1.87%
West_Caucasian - .04%
West_Med - 5.25%

Then being curious I picked another one, Africa9 Admixture:

Europe - 68.83%
NW_Africa - 9.59%
SW_Asia - 21.46%
S_Africa - .12%

And another, Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer too:

Anatolian Farmer - 4.58%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer - 49.85%
Middle Eastern Herder - 3.66%
South American Hunter Gatherer - .58%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer - .99%
East African Pastoralist - .37%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - .24%
Mediterranean Farmer - 39.72%

So basically my confusion is at an entirely new level with all of these varying location names, percentages and how did they get this or why is that not showing up. I have no clue whatsoever what all these numbers even mean. Where did all my other stuff go besides 23andme’s usual British, Irish, French and German categories that everyone seems to be put in? Oh well, my Mom says I’m genetically eclectic, and I think I will probably just go with that.

your Red Sea/Middle East/Near-East/East-Med/Arabian/SW-Asia..... all seem a bit elevated for somebody that supposedly has no Mediterranean/Levant heritage and supposedly only North and N.W. European.

JosephK
06-20-2018, 09:26 PM
your Red Sea/Middle East/Near-East/East-Med/Arabian/SW-Asia..... all seem a bit elevated for somebody that supposedly has no Mediterranean/Levant heritage and supposedly only North and N.W. European.

But he did mention French and possibly Spanish-American... that could do it...?

JerryS.
06-20-2018, 09:28 PM
But he did mention French and possibly Spanish-American... that could do it...?

sure it could, but 23andMe only gave him 1% (one percent) Iberian and not even .5% (less than half of one percent) broadly Southern European.

Thisisme
06-20-2018, 09:47 PM
All of those different percentages of those different regions essentially represent the 'geographic regional makeup of your ethnic makeup'... and nothing really stands out from being reasonable results for how you described your ethnic background... except the South Asian in your k13 results seems sort-of elevated? But if you compare the results with the ethnic samples on the spreadsheets available for each of your heritage ethnic groups, you'll see that they share similar proportions. Does this make sense?



Thanks for responding and explaining JosephK. I have to be honest none of it makes sense to me and I think that's why I find it frustrating. An example would be me getting 1% Iberian on 23andme and then get all these high percentages of areas like Mediterranean, Italian, Iberian and other areas in gedmatch but nothing even remotely close on 23andme. I definitely don't dispute 23andme saying I have Irish/Welsh, French, German, etc.. because I do have it, but maybe not at the percentages 23andme is actually saying. Who knows lol. I'm just confused by the science of it all. Genealogy is hard for me because it takes time, patience and a lot of digging and I have a zero attention span, so to focus any long term effort in this probably won't happen for me. I'll try looking at the spreadsheets when I have a chance and my Mom has done the 23andme test now so I'll see if that changes any of my percentages. Although my Father thought it was cool I did the test, and was not surprised at the Netherlands and very minimal African results, I doubt he'll be doing one which is what I'd like to happen since I believe the Iberian comes from that side. My brother won't either because he thinks it's a government scam lol so I'm out of luck with getting any definite answers since I'm female. I understand now that I won't have immediate answers to the questions I have and it's something I will have to accept and be fine with.

Thisisme
06-20-2018, 09:48 PM
your Red Sea/Middle East/Near-East/East-Med/Arabian/SW-Asia..... all seem a bit elevated for somebody that supposedly has no Mediterranean/Levant heritage and supposedly only North and N.W. European.


I agree. This is the exact reason for my confusion.

Nnobrega
06-20-2018, 09:50 PM
In my opinion 23 and me is innacurate. It only shows the last 300 years. For an iberian like myself, it lumps just about every ethnic grouo in Europe, West Asia, and North Africa together into the Iberian category. Ancestry was able to break down what Iberian is aside from native Iberian, it showed North African, West Europe, South Europe, and Brittish Isles. GedMatch is far more accurate in terms of looking at ancient data, but they tend to over exaggerate which segments of your DNA match where. In any matter, I thought 23 and me was pretty worthless. Dodecade K47 is very good

JerryS.
06-20-2018, 11:02 PM
i think this is the beauty of GEDmatch (and Genesis if they ever get it going). instead of relying on just one calculating model from one place like 23andMe et al. you have several models to cross check for repeated ethnicities/regions, similar percentages.... something showing up on one model only and at low percentages is suspect. that same thing showing up across the spectrum of calculating models even if the percentages vary.... lends credibility to it being there. I see this with European descendants trying to trace an often told wives' tale of American-Indian ancestry..... one sub model shows 1.5% but no other model shows it....

msmarjoribanks
06-21-2018, 03:53 AM
Thanks for responding and explaining JosephK. I have to be honest none of it makes sense to me and I think that's why I find it frustrating. An example would be me getting 1% Iberian on 23andme and then get all these high percentages of areas like Mediterranean, Italian, Iberian and other areas in gedmatch but nothing even remotely close on 23andme. I definitely don't dispute 23andme saying I have Irish/Welsh, French, German, etc.. because I do have it, but maybe not at the percentages 23andme is actually saying. Who knows lol. I'm just confused by the science of it all. Genealogy is hard for me because it takes time, patience and a lot of digging and I have a zero attention span, so to focus any long term effort in this probably won't happen for me. I'll try looking at the spreadsheets when I have a chance and my Mom has done the 23andme test now so I'll see if that changes any of my percentages. Although my Father thought it was cool I did the test, and was not surprised at the Netherlands and very minimal African results, I doubt he'll be doing one which is what I'd like to happen since I believe the Iberian comes from that side. My brother won't either because he thinks it's a government scam lol so I'm out of luck with getting any definite answers since I'm female. I understand now that I won't have immediate answers to the questions I have and it's something I will have to accept and be fine with.

Regarding the bold, this is why Gedmatch can be confusing for newbies and I strongly recommend that everyone start with a calculator like Eurogenes K13, which has an easily available spreadsheet.

The results like "Italian" and "Iberian" on K36 or, say, "West Med" or "East Med" or "West Asian" on K13 do NOT necessarily mean that you have actual ancestry from Italy or Spain or Turkey or recent ancestry from any of those places. If you look at the spreadsheet (it's a link right below the oracle buttons below the results on some of the Gedmatch tests), you will see that getting a mix of results is normal and expected with those tests, even for someone 100% English or French or Italian or Swedish or whatever. For example, for various British Isles samples, the West Asian result is between 5-6%. That's because it's really reflected some kind of DNA that may peak in that area, but came to Europe and is included in the European population generally (to greater and lesser extents). Reading it as meaning "ancestry from the Caucasus" would be wrong for most people). Similarly, the "Iberian" and "Italian" reflect some ancestry that is higher in those from the southern parts of Europe (more west for Iberian, more center to east-leaning for Italian), but also exists in many in other parts, higher in some areas (like France) than others (Sweden). Getting some degree of both again is not uncommon for someone of 100% British Isles ancestry, and French tends to mean more Iberian and Italian still, whereas German samples tend to be higher in Italian than the average British Isles person would be (but still not meaning actual Italian ancestry).

I think there have been some good threads on K36 in particular that discuss the type of ancestry those names (which are misleading) designate.

Unlike the Gedmatch "Italian" or "Iberian," those designations from 23 and Me or Ancestry are supposed to relate to actual ancestry, so if you are largely British Isles or German or what not, they SHOULD be less.

For a simplified example, let's say the average person from SW England gets 9% Iberian (I made that up, but it's probably not crazy) on K36. If you get 10% Iberian on Ancestry, and otherwise have a mix that looks like you are from the British Isles, it would make no sense to claim that you are 10% Iberian. At most your Iberian seems a tiny bit high and might suggest that you are 25% Europe West (which could include France which is higher in Iberian on average) or 99% British Isles, 1% Iberian or some such.

Not saying that's exactly how the test works, it doesn't, but instead trying to illustrate why different results would be normal and does not mean the commercial tests missed large amounts of actual Iberian or Italian. (The tests have other issues, but not this one.)

JerryS.
06-21-2018, 10:36 AM
Regarding the bold, this is why Gedmatch can be confusing for newbies and I strongly recommend that everyone start with a calculator like Eurogenes K13, which has an easily available spreadsheet.

The results like "Italian" and "Iberian" on K36 or, say, "West Med" or "East Med" or "West Asian" on K13 do NOT necessarily mean that you have actual ancestry from Italy or Spain or Turkey or recent ancestry from any of those places. If you look at the spreadsheet (it's a link right below the oracle buttons below the results on some of the Gedmatch tests), you will see that getting a mix of results is normal and expected with those tests, even for someone 100% English or French or Italian or Swedish or whatever. For example, for various British Isles samples, the West Asian result is between 5-6%. That's because it's really reflected some kind of DNA that may peak in that area, but came to Europe and is included in the European population generally (to greater and lesser extents). Reading it as meaning "ancestry from the Caucasus" would be wrong for most people). Similarly, the "Iberian" and "Italian" reflect some ancestry that is higher in those from the southern parts of Europe (more west for Iberian, more center to east-leaning for Italian), but also exists in many in other parts, higher in some areas (like France) than others (Sweden). Getting some degree of both again is not uncommon for someone of 100% British Isles ancestry, and French tends to mean more Iberian and Italian still, whereas German samples tend to be higher in Italian than the average British Isles person would be (but still not meaning actual Italian ancestry).

I think there have been some good threads on K36 in particular that discuss the type of ancestry those names (which are misleading) designate.

Unlike the Gedmatch "Italian" or "Iberian," those designations from 23 and Me or Ancestry are supposed to relate to actual ancestry, so if you are largely British Isles or German or what not, they SHOULD be less.

For a simplified example, let's say the average person from SW England gets 9% Iberian (I made that up, but it's probably not crazy) on K36. If you get 10% Iberian on Ancestry, and otherwise have a mix that looks like you are from the British Isles, it would make no sense to claim that you are 10% Iberian. At most your Iberian seems a tiny bit high and might suggest that you are 25% Europe West (which could include France which is higher in Iberian on average) or 99% British Isles, 1% Iberian or some such.

Not saying that's exactly how the test works, it doesn't, but instead trying to illustrate why different results would be normal and does not mean the commercial tests missed large amounts of actual Iberian or Italian. (The tests have other issues, but not this one.)

I will tag onto this the bias of Eurogenes for the North, Northwest and Northeast parts of Europe. there are better calculators in GEDmatch for checking minor (<25%) amounts of Mediterranean/Balkan groups.

JosephK
06-21-2018, 02:51 PM
Really, we can't remove posts? Even though the constant 505 errors constantly mess things up?

JosephK
06-21-2018, 02:52 PM
In my opinion 23 and me is innacurate. It only shows the last 300 years. For an iberian like myself, it lumps just about every ethnic grouo in Europe, West Asia, and North Africa together into the Iberian category. Ancestry was able to break down what Iberian is aside from native Iberian, it showed North African, West Europe, South Europe, and Brittish Isles. GedMatch is far more accurate in terms of looking at ancient data, but they tend to over exaggerate which segments of your DNA match where. In any matter, I thought 23 and me was pretty worthless. Dodecade K47 is very good

Absolutely. 23andme and Ancestry are pretty good at getting Northern European (whether NW or Slavic) groups down, though, but certainly if you have any bit of French or anything else Mediterranean or West Asian, they'll call you Iberian or Balkan or Jewish...

Kale
06-25-2018, 01:48 AM
I will tag onto this the bias of Eurogenes for the North, Northwest and Northeast parts of Europe. there are better calculators in GEDmatch for checking minor (<25%) amounts of Mediterranean/Balkan groups.

It's a pandemic issue with all of these calculators. If you look at the population averages, there is in fact no mix that will replicate those results.
European populations with 2% or less West-Asian: Basque, Sardinian, Spanish, Finnish
Isles, French, and German pops are all 4.5-6.5%...

Dodecad K12b, Eurogenes K13, Eurogenes K15, MDLP K23...basically any calculator with a West-Asian and an East-Med/SW-Asian sort of breakdown will give impossibly low levels of the former and boost the latter.

I'm willing to bet this explains why most North/West Europeans get such crazy polarized mixes in Oracles, it's trying to match this imbalance.
Iberians have very low West-Asian and plenty of East-Med, but are far too southern with regards to major Euro components, but having the second source be Scandinavian or NE Euro fixes that!

JerryS.
06-25-2018, 02:43 AM
It's a pandemic issue with all of these calculators. If you look at the population averages, there is in fact no mix that will replicate those results.
European populations with 2% or less West-Asian: Basque, Sardinian, Spanish, Finnish
Isles, French, and German pops are all 4.5-6.5%...

Dodecad K12b, Eurogenes K13, Eurogenes K15, MDLP K23...basically any calculator with a West-Asian and an East-Med/SW-Asian sort of breakdown will give impossibly low levels of the former and boost the latter.

I'm willing to bet this explains why most North/West Europeans get such crazy polarized mixes in Oracles, it's trying to match this imbalance.
Iberians have very low West-Asian and plenty of East-Med, but are far too southern with regards to major Euro components, but having the second source be Scandinavian or NE Euro fixes that!

what? can you explain this in simpler terms?

Lyrehc
06-25-2018, 02:55 AM
I have found 23 and me to be helpful in leading me to further investigation of a health problem, and that lead to improvement of my condition.

Kale
06-25-2018, 06:30 AM
what? can you explain this in simpler terms?
The English population average is ~5% West-Asian and 3% East-Med for Eurogenes K13
If an English person were to run their 23andme data through Eurogenes K13, they will not get that, they will get way too little of the former and way too much of the latter.
This same sort of thing happens in any calculator that makes such a distinction between West-Asian and East-Med/SW-Asian/Red-Sea.

On Eurogenes K13, there are basically 5 components found in Europeans.
North_Atlantic - Baltic - West_Med - West_Asian - East_Med

Here's some breakdowns...
a) What the SW_English pop average is
b) What a person with similar ancestry will score taking the Eurogenes K13
c) The Swedish population average
d) The Spanish (Valencian) population average

a) 51.98 - 22.1 - 15.1 - 4.92 - 2.7
b) 46.02 - 21.78 - 15.5 - 1.15 - 11.73
c) 48.53 - 31.09 - 9.25 - 5.2 - 1.35
d) 40.54 - 10.58 - 27.72 - 1.9 - 14.85

By mixing c + d 50/50 we get...
44.54 - 20.83 - 18.48 - 3.55 - 8.1

Which is actually more like B than A is. Which is why it shows up on the mixed-mode oracle as the best fit despite it being completely erroneous.

msmarjoribanks
06-25-2018, 11:33 AM
Where are you getting your (b)?

Do you know what K13's source for (a), (c), and (d) are?

Kale
06-25-2018, 03:42 PM
a, c, d
Are contained in a spreadsheet which (I'm almost positive) I downloaded from the oracle page after
b
Running my mom's 23andme data through the calculator.

msmarjoribanks
06-25-2018, 04:37 PM
I know that (a), (c), and (d) are from the spreadsheet. My question was whether you knew what K13's source for them was.

That your mom has certain results doesn't mean that that is the expected result for British people generally or typical of the average British person.

Kale
06-25-2018, 06:24 PM
I know that (a), (c), and (d) are from the spreadsheet. My question was whether you knew what K13's source for them was.

That your mom has certain results doesn't mean that that is the expected result for British people generally or typical of the average British person.

If you look around the autosomal DNA section of the forum, you'll see others score very similar.

msmarjoribanks
06-26-2018, 02:42 AM
I've seen quite a variety, including similar to the estimate, so I don't think it's possible to generalize from that, even if people posting on Anthrogenica were a legitimate sampling. Anyway, I was just wondering if you had some alternative sample to which you were referring.

Nnobrega
07-25-2018, 04:12 PM
So on 23 and me i score 1.3% African. On GEDmatch i score almost 3% in sone tests. Which is more accurate? because that difference is pretty significant to me. Im full Portuguese

Thisisme
08-28-2018, 08:07 PM
I did the 23andme test for fun believing my whole life that I’m German, Irish and Welsh. While waiting for my results (it took 2 ½ weeks, faster than I expected) I asked my parents some questions since all of my Grandparents have passed on. Surprisingly, I found out I had a Maternal Great Grandfather that was from France, my Paternal Grandfather who was Welsh may also have been Dutch, and according to my Father, my Grandmas background was a bit of a mystery. I knew the town in North Carolina she was from had a history with Spain so I was curious what I’d see, if anything in that regards.

23andme Results:

British & Irish - 45.7%
United Kingdom
French & German - 37.6%
Netherlands
Iberian - 1.0%
Broadly NW European - 14.0%
Broadly Southern European - 0.2%
Broadly European - 1.2%
Sub-Saharan African - 0.2%
Broadly Sub-Saharan African - 0.2%
Native American - 0.1%
Western Asian/North African - 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian/North African - 0.1%

I changed the confidence level and at 70% the only ones to become “unassigned” are the African percentages. Change again to 80% and then Native American becomes “unassigned”. Change to 90% and everything turns to “broadly”.
According to 23andme, my Parent, GP or GGP was 100% French (one correct result) and another GGP 100% Irish which I believe is correct but he was adopted so I can't be certain. I also have a GGP in the 1800’s that was 100% Iberian and another GGP in the 1700’s that was 100% Native American. So to confuse myself even more I upload my raw data to gedmatch (and yes, I know about all the “noise” but it’s there so I listened). The pie charts for each of these gave slightly different percentages.

Eurogenes K13 Proportions:

North_Atlantic - 43.82%
Baltic - 19.80%
West_Med - 18.30%
West_Asian - 2.03%
East_Med - 10.64%
Red_Sea - 1.50%
South_Asian - 2.09%
East_Asian - .24%
Siberian - .01%
Amerindian - .98%
Oceanian - 1.35%
Northeast_African - .56%
Sub-Saharan - .30%


Eurogenes K36 Proportions:

Amerindian -.55%
Arabian -1.18%
Armenian -.08%
Basque - 4.94%
Central_Euro - 6.3%
East_African - .12%
East_Balkan - 5.93%
East_Central_Asian - 4.56%
East_Med - 1.20%
Eastern_Euro - 4.86%
Fennoscandian - 5.59%
French - 11.48%
Iberian - 5.98%
Italian - 9.42%
Near_Eastern - 1.44%
North_African - .83%
North_Atlantic - 11.65%
North_Caucasian - 2.02%
North_Sea - 12.84%
Northeast_African - .16%
Oceanian - .25%
Omotic - .40%
South_Asian - .45%
Volga_Ural - 1.87%
West_Caucasian - .04%
West_Med - 5.25%

Then being curious I picked another one, Africa9 Admixture:

Europe - 68.83%
NW_Africa - 9.59%
SW_Asia - 21.46%
S_Africa - .12%

And another, Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer too:

Anatolian Farmer - 4.58%
Baltic Hunter Gatherer - 49.85%
Middle Eastern Herder - 3.66%
South American Hunter Gatherer - .58%
South Asian Hunter Gatherer - .99%
East African Pastoralist - .37%
Oceanian Hunter Gatherer - .24%
Mediterranean Farmer - 39.72%

So basically my confusion is at an entirely new level with all of these varying location names, percentages and how did they get this or why is that not showing up. I have no clue whatsoever what all these numbers even mean. Where did all my other stuff go besides 23andme’s usual British, Irish, French and German categories that everyone seems to be put in? Oh well, my Mom says I’m genetically eclectic, and I think I will probably just go with that.



Since I last posted my results have slightly changed a few times on 23andMe...My Mom was tested so that changed some of my percentages British and Irish went down about 10% and French and German went up, still Iberian, Native American, Netherlands and African and added was Italian. Broadly NW European, Southern European and Broadly European all went up in percentages. I didn't get some of the others my Mom got, Scandinavian, Eastern European, Balkan but her percentages were below 5% so maybe it just wasn't passed down to me.

Two weeks ago I looked again on 23andMe and I had yet another change, it was no longer Sub-Saharan Africa, it was changed to West Africa. Now the third change I logged on 2 days ago to see if anything changed with the new Africa region update and yet again a change. No longer is it West Africa, it's back to Sub-Saharan Africa specifically Nigerian as well as Northern East Africa and although the percentages are low when I change the confidence level to 90% they all stay. So I would say at this point I have a general idea of my heritage even though they can't seem to decide on the region in Africa. I agree with the French and German percentages going up and the addition of Italian. Talking with my family I think my gedmatch results make a little more sense now.

One other thing I tried was I uploaded my raw data to DNALand and I have no idea how they are coming up with their results but mine were so far out of left field I thought they gave me someone else's results. It was very strange. No German, French, Irish, Netherlands, Iberian, Native American....basically they said 63% NW European (Scottish & British, Icelandic, Norwegian & Orcadian) oooook, then 12% Sardinian, 5.9% Ashkenazi, 4% North Slavic, 2% Ambiguous, 1.3% Kalash, 12% North African... so I'm not sure who's results they are, certainly not mine and not to be trusted as accurate.

digital_noise
08-28-2018, 08:23 PM
Since I last posted my results have slightly changed a few times on 23andMe...My Mom was tested so that changed some of my percentages British and Irish went down about 10% and French and German went up, still Iberian, Native American, Netherlands and African and added was Italian. Broadly NW European, Southern European and Broadly European all went up in percentages. I didn't get some of the others my Mom got, Scandinavian, Eastern European, Balkan but her percentages were below 5% so maybe it just wasn't passed down to me.

Two weeks ago I looked again on 23andMe and I had yet another change, it was no longer Sub-Saharan Africa, it was changed to West Africa. Now the third change I logged on 2 days ago to see if anything changed with the new Africa region update and yet again a change. No longer is it West Africa, it's back to Sub-Saharan Africa specifically Nigerian as well as Northern East Africa and although the percentages are low when I change the confidence level to 90% they all stay. So I would say at this point I have a general idea of my heritage even though they can't seem to decide on the region in Africa. I agree with the French and German percentages going up and the addition of Italian. Talking with my family I think my gedmatch results make a little more sense now.

One other thing I tried was I uploaded my raw data to DNALand and I have no idea how they are coming up with their results but mine were so far out of left field I thought they gave me someone else's results. It was very strange. No German, French, Irish, Netherlands, Iberian, Native American....basically they said 63% NW European (Scottish & British, Icelandic, Norwegian & Orcadian) oooook, then 12% Sardinian, 5.9% Ashkenazi, 4% North Slavic, 2% Ambiguous, 1.3% Kalash, 12% North African... so I'm not sure who's results they are, certainly not mine and not to be trusted as accurate.

DNA.Land is odd at best but using 23 and Me V5 data its straight up garbage.

JerryS.
08-28-2018, 09:08 PM
Since I last posted my results have slightly changed a few times on 23andMe...My Mom was tested so that changed some of my percentages British and Irish went down about 10% and French and German went up, still Iberian, Native American, Netherlands and African and added was Italian. Broadly NW European, Southern European and Broadly European all went up in percentages. I didn't get some of the others my Mom got, Scandinavian, Eastern European, Balkan but her percentages were below 5% so maybe it just wasn't passed down to me.

Two weeks ago I looked again on 23andMe and I had yet another change, it was no longer Sub-Saharan Africa, it was changed to West Africa. Now the third change I logged on 2 days ago to see if anything changed with the new Africa region update and yet again a change. No longer is it West Africa, it's back to Sub-Saharan Africa specifically Nigerian as well as Northern East Africa and although the percentages are low when I change the confidence level to 90% they all stay. So I would say at this point I have a general idea of my heritage even though they can't seem to decide on the region in Africa. I agree with the French and German percentages going up and the addition of Italian. Talking with my family I think my gedmatch results make a little more sense now.

One other thing I tried was I uploaded my raw data to DNALand and I have no idea how they are coming up with their results but mine were so far out of left field I thought they gave me someone else's results. It was very strange. No German, French, Irish, Netherlands, Iberian, Native American....basically they said 63% NW European (Scottish & British, Icelandic, Norwegian & Orcadian) oooook, then 12% Sardinian, 5.9% Ashkenazi, 4% North Slavic, 2% Ambiguous, 1.3% Kalash, 12% North African... so I'm not sure who's results they are, certainly not mine and not to be trusted as accurate.

I don't know why your DNALand results would vary so greatly from your 23&me results using the same raw data. I also don't understand why your results would change just because your mom tested with the same company.

Thisisme
08-28-2018, 09:57 PM
I don't know why your DNALand results would vary so greatly from your 23&me results using the same raw data. I also don't understand why your results would change just because your mom tested with the same company.

I don't quite get the DNALand results either and how they came up with that information. It's very strange. The 23andMe results stayed basically the same other than the addition of Italian, which according to 23andMe I get from my father. My father has not tested. But it gives you a breakdown of the estimated ethnicity percentages you receive from each parent. I basically get French, German, British, Irish, Iberian, African from both of my parents, but the Netherlands, Italian and Native American come from my father. According to 23andMe.

digital_noise
08-28-2018, 10:00 PM
I don't know why your DNALand results would vary so greatly from your 23&me results using the same raw data. I also don't understand why your results would change just because your mom tested with the same company.

DNA.Land has their own algorithm, just like 23 and me, just like Ancestry DNA etc. None produce exact results despite the raw data coming from the same place. Its all their interpretation.

as to the change, 23 and Me phases their kits when a child and a parent(s) test. This greatly reduces the 'Broadly XXX" categories and refines the results. Mine changed when my moms results landed, albiet not drastically, but my Broadly NW Euro went from like 24% to 12%. Once my kids can spit on command and not turn it into a total shit show I will have her test with 23 and me as well

geebee
08-28-2018, 10:45 PM
I don't know why your DNALand results would vary so greatly from your 23&me results using the same raw data. I also don't understand why your results would change just because your mom tested with the same company.

Digital_noise gave good answers to these questions, but I'll still make a couple of observations.

As stated, different companies do give different results, even when using the same raw data. For one thing, an ancestry analysis doesn't necessarily use all SNPs, which means a different company analysing the same data may actually use different SNPs from that data.

For example, here's what 23andMe says my ancestry is:

European 97.9%

British & Irish 43.4% (United Kingdom)
French & German 22.6% (Switzerland)
Iberian 1.9%
Italian 0.8%
Finnish 0.4%
Broadly Northwestern European 24.2%
Broadly Southern European 2.3%
Broadly European 2.3%
East Asian & Native American 2.0%

Native American 2.0%
Broadly East Asian & Native American 0.1%

Now here's what MyHeritage says, using the same 23andMe data file:

Europe 97.7%

North and West Europe 78.5%
-- Irish, Scottish, and Welsh 50.4%
-- North and West European 26.7%
-- Finnish 1.4%
South Europe 19.2%
-- Iberian 10.0%
-- Italian 9.2%
America 2.3%

Native American 1.6%
-- Native American 1.6%
Central America 0.7%
-- Central American 0.7%

These are not at all the same results, so what's different? Well, besides the possibility that MyHeritage uses a different set of SNPs, you'll notice that the labels aren't exactly the same. But even where the labels may be the same, they don't necessarily apply to exactly the same regions. And there may some differences in the reference populations used for those regions. In addition, as was mentioned, each company uses its own proprietary algorithm, which may give somewhat different results. Finally, in the specific case of 23andMe, the company does at least minimal phasing on the data prior to running the analysis, which many companies do not.

And this brings the answer to your second question. The reason the results change at 23andMe as a result of a parent's test is that this allows the child's data to be phased against the parent. So the testing algorithm can be applied to each side separately. There are some ways of phasing the data even without a tested parent, but the results aren't as good. Two tested parents would be even better, but one is much better than none.

Hammer
08-28-2018, 10:50 PM
I think it's pretty clear that DNA.Land's primary purpose is health-related and the ancestry thing is kind of a throw-in to get people interested. Let's face it, a free ethnicity calculator will draw in a lot of people who otherwise would never consider helping with their health mission. I don't think it's that big a focus area for them.

It feels like with 23andMe and Ancestry, they're noticing that the ethnicity estimates are a big deal for a lot of their customers and that whoever offers the best one will likely profit significantly.

With FTDNA, they're focusing on the in-depth tests for the hardcore genealogy nerd crowd (no offense intended)..and with MyHeritage..well who knows what exactly they're trying to do..I guess they're the ones that are most active in trying to take on the European market where 23andME and Ancestry kinda don't want to go. Maybe that's why MyHeritage's result sometimes feel like they grabbed them from a hat while blind-folded..I guess that works better for Europeans than telling them they're 100% what they think they are.

Nino90
08-29-2018, 01:05 PM
Since the 23andme update I don't trust them. Best results I had was Gencove + Geneplaza. Even DNA.Land was better than 23andme.

Since I am nearly 40% Italian I find it strange i just got 5% that after the update became 3.8 %

My Eurogenes K15 Results show atleast more "South Euro" But still low.
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88% West_Norwegian + 12% Sardinian @ 6.35
2 76.3% West_Norwegian + 23.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 6.85
3 90.1% Norwegian + 9.9% Sardinian @ 6.86
4 52.9% West_German + 47.1% West_Norwegian @ 6.98
5 88.7% Swedish + 11.3% Sardinian @ 7.07
6 79.1% West_Norwegian + 20.9% Portuguese @ 7.17
7 79.9% Norwegian + 20.1% Spanish_Galicia @ 7.17
8 50.5% Norwegian + 49.5% West_German @ 7.19
9 82.5% West_Norwegian + 17.5% North_Italian @ 7.26
10 69.1% West_Norwegian + 30.9% French @ 7.3
11 76.9% Swedish + 23.1% Spanish_Galicia @ 7.35
12 55.4% West_German + 44.6% Swedish @ 7.35
13 90.2% West_Norwegian + 9.8% Moroccan @ 7.39
14 85.7% West_Norwegian + 14.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 7.41
15 82.7% Norwegian + 17.3% Portuguese @ 7.43
16 80.8% West_Norwegian + 19.2% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 7.43
17 90.4% West_Norwegian + 9.6% Mozabite_Berber @ 7.45
18 81.8% West_Norwegian + 18.2% Spanish_Extremadura @ 7.45
19 85.4% West_Norwegian + 14.6% Tuscan @ 7.46
20 82.1% West_Norwegian + 17.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 7.48

digital_noise
08-29-2018, 02:59 PM
Northern Italian? What are the other %’s you get since the update?

Nino90
08-29-2018, 09:43 PM
Northern Italian? What are the other %’s you get since the update?

Yes. North Tuscan to be exact.

Balkan - 2.7 %
Iberian - 1.5 %
Broadly South European - 5.5%
French and German - 8,4( Had 16.2% Before)

digital_noise
08-29-2018, 10:28 PM
I dont know what to say really. I looked at the link in your signature, the Eurogenes K13 %'s doent really add up to someone who is 40% Italian, despite it being Northern. I would think you would see more than 4.4% East Med and more than 3.5% West Asian??

Also, I would be suspect of DNA.Land results using 23 and Me V5 data. Not sure what version you have.

Nino90
08-30-2018, 06:27 AM
I dont know what to say really. I looked at the link in your signature, the Eurogenes K13 %'s doent really add up to someone who is 40% Italian, despite it being Northern. I would think you would see more than 4.4% East Med and more than 3.5% West Asian??

Also, I would be suspect of DNA.Land results using 23 and Me V5 data. Not sure what version you have.

Yes. That's the strange part. Even tho' you don't get exact proportions from your ancestors, I feel my low South Euro does not fit with my known heritage at all. In this moment I am awatning my fathers results.

I used V5. So the results may not be totally accurate. Even tho' the around 25% South Euro + 25% Finn + 50% Scandinavian is somewhat close to family history.

digital_noise
08-30-2018, 07:58 PM
Yes. That's the strange part. Even tho' you don't get exact proportions from your ancestors, I feel my low South Euro does not fit with my known heritage at all. In this moment I am awatning my fathers results.

I used V5. So the results may not be totally accurate. Even tho' the around 25% South Euro + 25% Finn + 50% Scandinavian is somewhat close to family history.

well, not sure what the deal is honestly. Just for conversations sake, are you absolutely certain of your Italian background? You mentioned it doesnt jive with your family history so I take that as you being told something vs factual evidence? I'm wondering if your father is actually 25% Italian and you have roughly 12.5%? It could also be that the Italians in your family lived there but were genetically something else, maybe German or whatever. Please revisit this thread when your fathers results come it, Im curious how yours would change.

JerryS.
08-30-2018, 08:16 PM
well, not sure what the deal is honestly. Just for conversations sake, are you absolutely certain of your Italian background? You mentioned it doesnt jive with your family history so I take that as you being told something vs factual evidence? I'm wondering if your father is actually 25% Italian and you have roughly 12.5%? It could also be that the Italians in your family lived there but were genetically something else, maybe German or whatever. Please revisit this thread when your fathers results come it, Im curious how yours would change.

forgive my layman view of this, but in an over simplified way.... would Tuscan show as a sort of mix of 60% south Italian and 40% German/Scandinavian/English sort of mix? and the ratio would continue to tilt north as you went north? im asking this because folks with south Italian heritage tend to still show up on these charts even a little bit 'washed out' a bit like me, but central and north Italian seem to 'wash out' earlier.

digital_noise
08-30-2018, 08:46 PM
Im not sure I understand the question, but I'll take a stab anyways. I dont think the washing out has anything to do with northern or southern. It has to do with actual amount of DNA. I think at times its better to reference the spreadsheets over the oracles. a Tuscan in Eurogenes K13 will show if my memory serves me correct about 24-29% Eastern Med. A South Italian or Sicilian a bit over 30. I also think the West Asian increases the further south you go.

msmarjoribanks
08-30-2018, 09:33 PM
K13's Italian options.

South_Italian has 16.7% N Atl, 5.9% Baltic, 22.8% W Med, 15% W Asian, 31.8% E Med, 5.1% Red Sea

Italian_Abruzzo has 22.2% N Atl, 8.7% Baltic, 20.3% W Med, 15% W Asian, 27.5% E Med, 4.9% Red Sea

Tuscan has 27.2% N Atl, 10% Baltic, 23.8% W Med, 8.8% W Asian, 24.6% E Med, 4.3% Red Sea

North_Italian has 31.7% N Atl, 11.9% Baltic, 25.8% W Med, 6.9% W Asian, 19.6% E Med, 2.8% Red Sea

So ranges from 20-25% W Med -- not a big difference.

Bigger difference with E Med -- 19-31%, with the low in the North and high in the South. North Atlantic is about the reverse, ranging from 32%-17%.

15% West Asian in the South vs. about half that further north.

For comparison, West_German has 43.1% N Atl, 22.4% Baltic, 14.8% W Med, 6.9% W Asian, 8.5% E Med, 0.9% Red Sea, and French has 42.6% N Atl, 17.5% Baltic, 19.5% W Med, 5% W Asian, 10.3% E Med, 2.8% Red Sea.

Scandinavian will off-set the Italian numbers more than a lot of mixed ancestry since it's very high in N Atl and Baltic and low in Med, just about the reverse of the Italian results.

Nino90
08-31-2018, 12:01 PM
well, not sure what the deal is honestly. Just for conversations sake, are you absolutely certain of your Italian background? You mentioned it doesnt jive with your family history so I take that as you being told something vs factual evidence? I'm wondering if your father is actually 25% Italian and you have roughly 12.5%? It could also be that the Italians in your family lived there but were genetically something else, maybe German or whatever. Please revisit this thread when your fathers results come it, Im curious how yours would change.

I am very sure. I got typical Y-dna that fits North Italy. And i have documented relatives from around 1840 AD in that area. I am thinking that my mostly north Swedish mother + my fathers Saami(not sure if full or part) maternal grandmother makes my genetic results less South European or the fact that my Italian heritage is more german like due to isolated populations in the mountain parts.

I guess I need to wait for my fathers test + also test paternal grandmother.

Nino90
08-31-2018, 12:03 PM
K13's Italian options.

South_Italian has 16.7% N Atl, 5.9% Baltic, 22.8% W Med, 15% W Asian, 31.8% E Med, 5.1% Red Sea

Italian_Abruzzo has 22.2% N Atl, 8.7% Baltic, 20.3% W Med, 15% W Asian, 27.5% E Med, 4.9% Red Sea

Tuscan has 27.2% N Atl, 10% Baltic, 23.8% W Med, 8.8% W Asian, 24.6% E Med, 4.3% Red Sea

North_Italian has 31.7% N Atl, 11.9% Baltic, 25.8% W Med, 6.9% W Asian, 19.6% E Med, 2.8% Red Sea

So ranges from 20-25% W Med -- not a big difference.

Bigger difference with E Med -- 19-31%, with the low in the North and high in the South. North Atlantic is about the reverse, ranging from 32%-17%.

15% West Asian in the South vs. about half that further north.

For comparison, West_German has 43.1% N Atl, 22.4% Baltic, 14.8% W Med, 6.9% W Asian, 8.5% E Med, 0.9% Red Sea, and French has 42.6% N Atl, 17.5% Baltic, 19.5% W Med, 5% W Asian, 10.3% E Med, 2.8% Red Sea.

Scandinavian will off-set the Italian numbers more than a lot of mixed ancestry since it's very high in N Atl and Baltic and low in Med, just about the reverse of the Italian results.

From my own experience some calculators show better than other. The Geneplaza had one that gave me around 30% Basque,Spanish at least. But I think that 23andme V5 is also a bad test. You guys can check my signature for my results from V5.

msmarjoribanks
09-02-2018, 05:47 PM
23andMe v 5 is the best test for me, but like the new Ancestry update it might be better for people without southern European.

I think you will learn a lot from your dad's test, as he should be 75% Northern Italian -- you should get a better sense of how German that reads. If you can also test your grandmother that's fabulous and should be informative. Wish I'd been able to test my grandparents before they died.

Sizzles
09-02-2018, 09:56 PM
K13
17.81 E. Med
15.91 W. Med
20.88 Baltic
32.42 North atlantic
7.57 West asian
2.38 red sea
1.39 South asian
1.40 amerindian
0.23 Sub-Saharan

23&me
32%balkan Croatia
20.8%italian
13.1%broadly Southern euro
4.6% east euro Slovenia
9.2% British irish
3.6% French german
9.5% Broadly northwest euro
6.9% Broadly euro
1% unassigned
2% Broadly asian
1% native american

To further the confusion
Ancestry

36% South euro sicily
26% east euro Croatia, ne italy, b&h
24% great britain
5% British irish Wales
4% caucasus
2% middle east
1% each Scandinavian, E. Euro, n. Africa

Gedmatch accurate? There all different

jelliedsoup
09-04-2018, 11:02 PM
I trust Eurogenes k15 and k36 the most, as it aligns with my paper trail. That said my paper trail only goes back 200-300 years.