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Christina
05-29-2015, 09:46 PM
I can't take entire credit for this, since I've seen the general concept discussed elsewhere on other forums.

The Romans cremated their dead. We there have very few Roman corpses. I am unaware of any Roman DNA anywhere.

Before we go further, it's important to define what I mean as, "Roman." I refer to "Roman" as the ethnic group, which itself was a synthesis of native Italian tribes. The Romans documented that their population was a mix of (in order of importance):

(1) Latins, that is, a central/southern Italian coastal tribe speaking Latin, an Indo-European Latin language,

(2) Sabellians, that is, central/southern Italian inland/mountain tribes speaking Oscan, an Indo-European Language,

and

(3) Etruscans, that is, central/northern Italian highlanders speaking Etruscan, a non-IE language.

Historical and demographic data, as well as prosopography, indicates that most of the common folk were Latins.

In any event, I am talking about ethnic Romans as that term was understood from the end of the Roman Kingdom in 509 B.C., through the 475+ years of the Roman Republic, to the dawn of the Empire, say to about 50 A.D.

Already at the beginning of the dawn of the empire, you have people (notably, St. Paul in the Bible, using the term "Roman" to mean "Roman citizen" as opposed to its old ethnic meaning. And in 214 AD, citizenship was extended to anyone within the borders.

Every study I have seen so far focuses on Roman CITIZENS in the middle-late empire, as opposed to the Roman people. For example, we'll see isolated reports on Roman-era graves from around the provinces of the empire, with natives who might have held Roman citizenship. This is not what I'm posting about.

(A rough analogy, although imperfect, would be a study on "Americans" in 1776. The term could mean Native Americans (or British colonists, depending on usage). Now it means any citizen.)

In Roman times, population expansions were tied to resource and territory expansions. Not like today, where generally speaking, demographers tell us that wealthy people have 1.2 children and you hear of poor families with 9 kids. It was the other way around.

The Roman population experienced a dramatic expansion during the late days of the Republic. I have read the historical and demographic data, and I know it well.

By Caesar's time, the population of the city of Rome alone was 500,000. The data indicates that at that time, it was mostly Romans and other closely related Italians from the peninsula, who had flocked to the city.

Anyway, Rome dealt with an expanding population by sending out colonies. It sent out both citizen and soldier colonies. These colonies can shed light on what the Romans DNA was.

It would seem to me that we could reconstruct ethnic Roman Republican DNA by studying the data of far-flung and isolated colonies, who were founded before the Roman Empire became too cosmopolitan.

For example, we know that up to and until the middle days of the Empire, most Roman soldiers were of Roman or Italic stock. We also have info on the colonies founded (say, for example, that they were constituted of poor Roman families from the city).

If we look at the current DNA of the locales where these colonies were founded (mostly Italy, Spain, France, and Portugal, but also modern Croatia, and even Tunisia, and other places), we can attempt to identify a "signature" that would be too coincidental to be anything other than an indication of the old Roman haplogroups.

Now, some places we would eliminate of course. For example, there was a Roman colony at London, but obviously the population influx into London has been overwhelming, so a place like that is of little use. You get the point.

There are other towns that were Roman colonies but which suffered the opposite: total depopulation or depradation during the intervening millennia. For example, a Roman colony in Libya that was subsequently sacked by Arabs, and repopulated by the same.

However there are enough towns that fit the bill. I'm talking places like Santiponce, Spain, and Venosa, Italy. There are many more.

Places:

1. where colonies were founded before Rome became cosmopolitan;

2. places that were backwater enough not to change much; and

3. places that are spread apart enough that the likelihood of similar population coincidences would be slim.

4. You could compare the DNA from those towns to the DNA from people in isolated, mostly unchanged/un-invaded towns near Rome, that had a similar population of Latins and Oscans since Roman times.

I was reading another thread where someone posted, "the genetic genealogy community would gladly crowdfund XYZ." I totally agree here. I think this is an area of interest where many people would be curious to understand.

It's the next best thing to finding a well-preserved Roman skeleton from 50 B.C.!!!

J Man
05-30-2015, 12:14 AM
Roman Y-DNA likely is mainly R1b, J2a, E1b1b and G2a.

palamede
05-30-2015, 03:25 PM
Personnaly, I think Hannibal with his dramatic bloody victories—Trebia, Trasimene, and Cannae and campaihns during fifteen years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Punic_War , created important changes in the Roman population composition, then the enormous imperialist campains of 2th century bc thru Greece , Anatolia, Gallia, Iberia, Africa forced Roman power to recruit soldiers in all Italy, with large distribution of Roman citizenship. During the civil wars of the first century BC, Roman generals didn't care about the legal rules of recruitment in the Roman citizens of Italy. The only rule of recruitment were men who don't flee in presence of armed ennemis.

At the end of Caesar's campaigns, his soldiers were enough politically powerful to obtain colonies in their natal countries. For instance , in the colonies established at Orange and Arles in Narbonaise, the retired soldiers had been essentially recruited in the indigenous populations of Narbonaise (and even in independant tribes neighbouring of Narbonaise), by Pompeus during the long war against Sertorious in Spain and by Caesar the conquest of the remaining independant Gallia. Neither Pompeus , nor Caesar didn't want to demand Roman senate new troops to compensate their loses.

Under Augustus, Strabon said the Narbonaise city with the greater number of Roman citizens were not a colony like Narbonne (Narbo Martius), Lyon (Lugdunum),Frejus (Forum Julii), Arles (Arelate), Orange (Arausia) but Nimes (Nemausus) capital of the indigenous Volques. In more in 1st century AD, modern historians have noticed the inhabitants of Narbonaise who entered Roman Senate come from Roman colonies rarely, bur were Gaulish aristocrats coming from the capital of indigenous people, Nimes capital of the Volques, Vaison capital of the Voconces, Vienne capital of Allobrogues, Toulouse, capital of Tolosates . Probably the rich gaulish aristoraty were a lot more educated in the Greco-roman litterate and juridic culture and with more political relations in the Roman power than the modest exploitants of the small farms in the colonies.

Therefore for me, already the composition of the initial roman composition changed around 216 BC after Trasimene and Cannae; for instance don't forget the "Sempronians", freed slaves engaged as soldiers under the general Sempronius Gracchus ancestor of the famous Grachus brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Sempronius_Gracchus_(consul_215_BC)

He was elected consul in 216 BC, ..... In that year, Fabius Maximus and the Senate decided to induct volunteer slaves into the Roman armies and to have them serve in separate legions to win their freedom. Gracchus was appointed commander of the slave troops. He rapidly became known as an effective general of the volunteer slave troops, winning their loyalty and trust for his clemency when some broke and ran from the field. [Livy]. He was appointed proconsul in 214 BC, continuing to lead his slave and freedmen troops in central and southern Italy against Hannibal, with mixed success.

The old Romans reduced the influence of all these newcomers in elections by inscribing them in the urban tribes . In the electoral roman system all tribes had the same weigh therefore A small rural tribe = a big urban tribe and ther were numeous rural tribes and some urban tribes . This involved the political weight of the urban tribes were very reduced; except by street unrests.

We can think the Sempronians issued of te freed slaves remained in the political clientele of the aristocratic Sempronian Grachus gens. This can explain the political action of the Gracchus grothers to keep their popular clientele , same thing for their ally in the social reforms the very proud aristocrat Appius Claudius whose gens had also an important popular clientele coming fom Sabine .

Christina
05-30-2015, 08:20 PM
Palamede, you raised some good points. I have thought through many of those considerations.

However, a few points should be corrected, if only slightly. Most wars that the city state of Rome fought up until ~100 B.C. were within Italy. Most slaves the Romans took (and bought and sold) were from sister Italic tribes. So freed slaves, again, up to a point in time, were mostly from the Latins, Etruscans, Samnites, Marsi, etc. that the Romans were fighting, until the Romans became more imperialistic.

Secondly, Hannibal did kill lots of Roman soldiers, but saying that the Romans lost their identity thereafter would be like saying the French or Germans or Belgians, etc. lost their identity after WWI. There were significant gaps in the demographic pyramid, but multiple historical sources provide the composition of the Roman armies at that point and later, and they remained mostly Roman and Italian.

The key for this exercise would be identifying which towns were settled by Romans before Imperial times, and which have remained (for whatever reason: inaccessibility, unimportance, accidents of history, etc.) rather isolated and undisturbed since.

Christina
05-30-2015, 08:25 PM
Thanks for your input Jman. I am talking about specific subclades though.

I believe researchers have already identified a Sabellian marker, and it is I-M26. The shockingly high figures in modern, isolated Samnite country, along with its marked presence in the Sila of Cosenza province, etc. would indicate it was one component of the prehistoric mountain dwellers of Italy, which got folded into the Sabellian tribes, which got folded into the Romans.

J Man
05-30-2015, 08:42 PM
Thanks for your input Jman. I am talking about specific subclades though.

I believe researchers have already identified a Sabellian marker, and it is I-M26. The shockingly high figures in modern, isolated Samnite country, along with its marked presence in the Sila of Cosenza province, etc. would indicate it was one component of the prehistoric mountain dwellers of Italy, which got folded into the Sabellian tribes, which got folded into the Romans.

That is possible but of course we need ancient DNA to prove it though.

R.Rocca
05-30-2015, 09:28 PM
Thanks for your input Jman. I am talking about specific subclades though.

I believe researchers have already identified a Sabellian marker, and it is I-M26. The shockingly high figures in modern, isolated Samnite country, along with its marked presence in the Sila of Cosenza province, etc. would indicate it was one component of the prehistoric mountain dwellers of Italy, which got folded into the Sabellian tribes, which got folded into the Romans.

I have not seen anything linking Sabellians with I-M26? Do you have a reference?

rms2
05-31-2015, 11:24 AM
From what I have read, the highest frequency of I-M26 occurs in Sardinia. Nowhere else does it approach the frequency it achieves there, although it is also found among the Basques.

Christina
05-31-2015, 05:38 PM
Sure, happy to provide the cite.

Here's the data page from a study last year by Brisighelli et. al. (I believe).

It breaks down the I-M26 by certain Italian regions. (Note it lists it as I1b2).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vzVTNgkWuIo/UveB4MpF3TI/AAAAAAAACXk/Bj5YbpK6h6Y/s1600/Brisighelli-Y-DNAtable.png

It is in Italian. "Sanniti" is for Samnite country of course. It has been (and remains) the most isolated, rugged, mountainous part of mainland peninsular Italy. (putting aside the Italian Alps of course in the far north).

That 10% figure is the 3rd highest in the world, after Sardinia (~37%) and Castile (~19%). I suspect though that it is a distantly related and quite different subclade.

There are also reports of rather high figures in the rugged, isolated mountains of Calabria Latina (North Cosenza) aka Calabria Citra. But I don't have the cite off the top of my head.

Both were isolated, Oscan-speaking redoubts.

For those who want to know what all these terms mean, here is a map from Wikipedia showing the reconstructed languages of Iron Age Italy. It is far from perfect. But you can see the prehistoric Sabellian regions by looking where Oscan was spoken (as well as Southern Umbrian).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscan_language#/media/File:Iron_Age_Italy.svg

Unwinding I-M26, of course, is an entirely different exercise. My guess is that its presence in Spain is due to a complicated variety of factors, for example. It is likely that most comes from the prehistoric Western Mediterranean population (which founded Sardinia), but that a small percentage comes from gene flow during Roman times as well. Shades of Sertorius's "republic" centered in Italica.

sweuro
05-31-2015, 08:08 PM
That study on British "romans" the one who is foreign (because 6 out of 7 are look british native altough buried as romans) they say it looks from an Eastern-Med population (could be Sicilian, South-Italian, Greek..)

RHAS
06-01-2015, 03:28 AM
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/11259687_900130526710976_3941184315035788932_n.jpg ?oh=211de05e1274948002850b4d505ba91d&oe=5608A4A1

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/11143278_900130610044301_7595212390839067986_n.jpg ?oh=eed403eca7303aad7014b427d6fc51d4&oe=560C0617

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11255463_900130660044296_7974255498304902435_n.jpg ?oh=7b4eb2f18735bc080ddcbd9d55e6213e&oe=560B4FA3&__gda__=1438770633_89ff6988b716d26b5dc80c0e25c735b 9

RHAS
06-01-2015, 03:29 AM
https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/10310530_708739549183409_7094995607984718286_n.jpg ?oh=2b55dcfd088e7d485803b91a124f618a&oe=56003EB3

RHAS
06-01-2015, 03:31 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1554519_695780130479351_5898228120663870555_n.jpg? oh=920c4c9bd723cb1b9f11f6ecd2d1f60a&oe=55F85AB5&__gda__=1443591540_d1acc1cde72818f9e93d670ae0894cd 6

"Romans surely helped spread haplogroup J2 across its borders, judging from the distribution of J2 within Europe (frequency over 5%) wich bears an uncanny resemblance to the borders of the Roman Empire."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10177243_695780107146020_3050812504631012610_n.jpg ?oh=ca7a5b2eab1268efd35eea1148fc8cc1&oe=55F1605E

RHAS
06-01-2015, 03:36 AM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10917314_874262845965205_1727308394999232082_n.png ?oh=a04d70111d3e281c3f26078fdd590650&oe=55D16041&__gda__=1438742941_e1c1e1f31d36bde893db477d0f5bafd b

"R1b3 frequency was found to be higher in the northern part of the country, while the Y-chromosome haplogroups G and E3b1, J2 and I(xI1b2) frequencies were higher in the south and in the central part of the country, respectively."
Uniparental Markers of Contemporary Italian Population Reveals Details on Its Pre-Roman Heritage.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0050794

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1508090_834864356570927_2994981896453707308_n.jpg? oh=d933133aff2b2c8044606429e2058790&oe=55EC5F88

Latini, Piceni, Grecani.

Latini 22.8%, Piceni 36.9%, Grecani Sal. 25.5% J2.

"The Latins (Latin: Latini) were an Italic tribe which included the early inhabitants of the city of Rome. From about 1000 BC, the Latins inhabited the small region known to the Romans as Old Latium (Latium Vetus), that is, the area between the river Tiber and the promontory of Mount Circeo 100 kilometres (62 mi) SE of Rome. The Latins were an Indo-European people who probably migrated into the Italian peninsula during the late Bronze Age (1200–900 BC). ... The Latins belonged to a group of Indo-European ("IE") tribes, conventionally known as the Italic tribes, that populated central and southern Italy during the Italian Iron Age (which began around 900 BC). The most common hypothesis is that the Italic peoples migrated into the Italian peninsula some time during the Italian Bronze Age (1800–900 BC). The most likely migration route was from the Balkan peninsula along the Adriatic coast"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

"The Picentes or Picentini (Ancient Greek: Πίκεντες, Πικεντῖνοι) were an Italic tribe who lived in Picenum in the northern Adriatic coastal plain of ancient Italy. The endonym, if any, and its language are not known for certain."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picentes

"Grecani Salentini is a Hellenic-speaking linguistic island of Salento, situated in southern Puglia, and consisting of nine municipalities in which a neo-Greek dialect, also known as Grecanic or Griko, is spoken. The origins of this linguistic island in Salentine Greece are uncertain. The German linguist G. Rohlfs proposed its origin in the Magna Graecia region; while O. Parlangeli suggests a Byzantine derivation of the Griki of Salento. Greek researchers (e.g. A. Karanastasis) claim the input of Byzantine elements in the pre-existing Magna Graecia matrix. The Greek arrival in the Salentine Peninsula occurred both in the Magna Graecia, and posterior Byzantine dominations."

RHAS
06-01-2015, 03:47 AM
"Roman Empire (150 BC – 400 CE): very likely this era imported most of the modern European J2a, especially to Northwestern Europe. Probably also J2b expanded out of the Balkan to Western Europe mainly in this period. The migration was probably driven by commerce, trade, military movements and (re)settling of free land."
J2-M172 Haplogroup Research - Cultural History.
http://j2-m172.info/links/cultural-history/

"Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html

"The J2 lineage originated in the northern portion of the Fertile Crescent where it later spread throughout central Asia, the Mediterranean, and south into India. As with other populations with Mediterranean ancestry this lineage is found within Jewish populations. Research note: Many people new to Genetic Genealogy think the J2 haplogroup is synonymous with having male Jewish ancestry. One should note that having a J2 haplogroup assignment does not necessarily indicate Jewish ancestry. The J2 haplogroup is far more ancient than the Jewish religion and is found in many lines with Mediterranean region ancient ancestry. Another relatively more recent mode for J2's entry into some parts of Europe from the Mediterranean areas could have been the Roman Legions and Roman settlements."
Kerchner.com - YDNA Haplogroup Descriptions & Information Links.
http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-ydna.htm

"Quite a few ancient Mediterranean and Middle Eastern civilisations flourished in territories where J2 lineages were preponderant. This is the case of the Hattians, the Hurrians, the Etruscans, the Minoans, the Greeks, the Phoenicians (and their Carthagian offshoot), the Israelites, and to a lower extend extent also the Romans, the Assyrians and the Persians. All great seafaring civilisations from the middle Bronze Age to the Iron Age were dominated by J2 men."
Eupedia.com - Haplogroup J2.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

"J2: essenzialmente č un aplogruppo originario della Mesopotamia. E’ l’aplogruppo principale delle societŕ che hanno dominato il Mediterraneo. Esso si divide a sua volta in due ramificazioni principali J2A e J2B. La prima ramificazione si č diffusa nel mediterraneo grazie all’espansione dei Greci, dei Romani, dei Fenici, degli Ebrei e degli Etruschi. Ed č quello presente anche come aplogruppo maggioritario in regioni come l’Inguscezia e la Cecenia. L’aplogruppo J2B č meno diffuso, ed č comune nei balcani, soprattutto tra l’Albania, la Macedonia e nel nord dell’India. Quindi probabilmente, l’aplogruppo J2B puň al pari di alcune ramificazioni dell’aplogruppo G, far parte delle tribů indoeuropee ariane che invasero l’India. Alcuni ipotesi dicono come questo aplogruppo sia quello degli antichi macedoni di Alessandro Magno, dato che si ritrova nel percorso di conquista nella truppe macedoni."
Hescaton.com - L’Europa genetica. (Italian)
http://www.hescaton.com/wordpress/leuropa-genetica/

"One fourth of the Vlach people (isolated communities of Romance language speaking peoples in the Balkans) belong to J2, which, combined to the fact that they speak a language descended from latin, suggests that they could have had a greater part of Roman (italian) ancestry than other ethnic groups in the Balkans."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml

"The propagation of J2b and E V-13 correspond roughly to the ancient Greek and Roman spheres of influence."
Eupedia.com, 2013.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

https://scontent-fra3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11329936_900750209982341_8811654036335289256_n.jpg ?oh=352f094ae985a2796d75c85ce08a498b&oe=55ECDB42

"J2b2a-L283 was discovered by Family Tree DNA through its "Walk Through The Y" program, and is predominantly Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and European. The M12/M241 frequency peak in the Balkan Peninsula and Italy observed by Semino et al. and Cruciani et al., may instead belong to sub-clade L283. A recent Z631 sub-branch expansion from east to west through the heart of Europe to the UK along with presence in Italy and Spain might be associated with Roman expansion using mercenaries and slaves acquired in the Balkans."
Generation of high-resolution a priori Y-chromosome phylogenies using "next-generation" sequencing data.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf

"The likely deep ancestry source of Haplogroup J2 as found along the Anglo-Scottish border is probably to be found with members of the Roman Legions which were stationed along Hadrian's wall."
Border receivers - DNA Report Nov 2005.
http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/DNA%20Report%207%20Nov%2005.htm

"EEJ are Europeans probably of Roman descent who converted to Judaism at times, when Judaism was the first monotheistic religion that spread in the ancient world. Any other theory about their origin is not supported by the genetic data. Future studies will have to address their genetic affinities to various Italian populations and examine the possibility of other components both European and Non-European in their gene pool."
The origin of Eastern European Jews revealed by autosomal, sex chromosomal and mtDNA polymorphisms.
http://www.biologydirect.com/content/5/1/57#B10

vettor
06-01-2015, 06:26 AM
Sure, happy to provide the cite.

Here's the data page from a study last year by Brisighelli et. al. (I believe).

It breaks down the I-M26 by certain Italian regions. (Note it lists it as I1b2).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vzVTNgkWuIo/UveB4MpF3TI/AAAAAAAACXk/Bj5YbpK6h6Y/s1600/Brisighelli-Y-DNAtable.png

It is in Italian. "Sanniti" is for Samnite country of course. It has been (and remains) the most isolated, rugged, mountainous part of mainland peninsular Italy. (putting aside the Italian Alps of course in the far north).

That 10% figure is the 3rd highest in the world, after Sardinia (~37%) and Castile (~19%). I suspect though that it is a distantly related and quite different subclade.

There are also reports of rather high figures in the rugged, isolated mountains of Calabria Latina (North Cosenza) aka Calabria Citra. But I don't have the cite off the top of my head.

Both were isolated, Oscan-speaking redoubts.

For those who want to know what all these terms mean, here is a map from Wikipedia showing the reconstructed languages of Iron Age Italy. It is far from perfect. But you can see the prehistoric Sabellian regions by looking where Oscan was spoken (as well as Southern Umbrian).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscan_language#/media/File:Iron_Age_Italy.svg

Unwinding I-M26, of course, is an entirely different exercise. My guess is that its presence in Spain is due to a complicated variety of factors, for example. It is likely that most comes from the prehistoric Western Mediterranean population (which founded Sardinia), but that a small percentage comes from gene flow during Roman times as well. Shades of Sertorius's "republic" centered in Italica.

The Picene group are comprised of a "illyrian/Liburnian " North-Picene group with a pure Umbrian south-Picene group .............both group spoke a different language from each other.

R.Rocca
06-01-2015, 01:28 PM
Sure, happy to provide the cite.

Here's the data page from a study last year by Brisighelli et. al. (I believe).

It breaks down the I-M26 by certain Italian regions. (Note it lists it as I1b2).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vzVTNgkWuIo/UveB4MpF3TI/AAAAAAAACXk/Bj5YbpK6h6Y/s1600/Brisighelli-Y-DNAtable.png

It is in Italian. "Sanniti" is for Samnite country of course. It has been (and remains) the most isolated, rugged, mountainous part of mainland peninsular Italy. (putting aside the Italian Alps of course in the far north).

That 10% figure is the 3rd highest in the world, after Sardinia (~37%) and Castile (~19%). I suspect though that it is a distantly related and quite different subclade.

There are also reports of rather high figures in the rugged, isolated mountains of Calabria Latina (North Cosenza) aka Calabria Citra. But I don't have the cite off the top of my head.

Both were isolated, Oscan-speaking redoubts.

For those who want to know what all these terms mean, here is a map from Wikipedia showing the reconstructed languages of Iron Age Italy. It is far from perfect. But you can see the prehistoric Sabellian regions by looking where Oscan was spoken (as well as Southern Umbrian).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscan_language#/media/File:Iron_Age_Italy.svg

Unwinding I-M26, of course, is an entirely different exercise. My guess is that its presence in Spain is due to a complicated variety of factors, for example. It is likely that most comes from the prehistoric Western Mediterranean population (which founded Sardinia), but that a small percentage comes from gene flow during Roman times as well. Shades of Sertorius's "republic" centered in Italica.

The Sanniti sample is very low (n=30)...of which 30% are R1b3 and 20% are J2, so there is no need to single out the 10% I2a-M26 (3 samples) as a "Sanniti" marker. Haplogroup I2a-M26 is without a doubt a marker that survived in the Italian peninsula from at least the Neolithic and maybe as far back as the Mesolithic.

With the exception of some rare haplogroups, all of the markers that are well represented in Italy today were likely already present in all of the Iron Age Italic tribes. Perhaps trading colonies by Greeks shifted their genetic makeup to be more Aegean/Balkan/Anatolian than before their arrival, but it is impossible at this time to say exactly how much. My guess is that it was somewhat minimal.

Christina
06-02-2015, 12:21 AM
The Sanniti sample is very low (n=30)...of which 30% are R1b3 and 20% are J2, so there is no need to single out the 10% I2a-M26 (3 samples) as a "Sanniti" marker. Haplogroup I2a-M26 is without a doubt a marker that survived in the Italian peninsula from at least the Neolithic and maybe as far back as the Mesolithic.

With the exception of some rare haplogroups, all of the markers that are well represented in Italy today were likely already present in all of the Iron Age Italic tribes. Perhaps trading colonies by Greeks shifted their genetic makeup to be more Aegean/Balkan/Anatolian than before their arrival, but it is impossible at this time to say exactly how much. My guess is that it was somewhat minimal.

I agree the sample size is low, and I think more samples are definitely in order. But remember, M26 percentages are so low everywhere in Europe that finding any is usually pretty significant.

I also base this on the significant percentages of M26 in La Sila and the Serra of Calabria, also isolated mountain ranges inhabited by the descendants of Sabellian tribes. I don't have the study (nor the bookmark) stored, but I have seen these numbers several places.

If the scholars are right, that M26 could have been a part of a Southern France or Italian refugium, and from there went on to populate Sardinia, then it would certainly have also formed a component of the aboriginal Italic tribes.

rms2
06-02-2015, 12:19 PM
It is amazing how much I-M26 there is in Sardinia, when one considers its relative scarcity most everywhere else. According to Rootsi et al (2004) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/table/TB1/), I-M26 has a frequency of about 41% in Sardinia.

It was about 7% among the Basques and nearly 8% among the Bearnais.

It is interesting that some scholars claim to detect a relationship between Nuragic or Paleo-Sardinian and Euskara, the language of the Basques.

R.Rocca
06-02-2015, 01:44 PM
It is amazing how much I-M26 there is in Sardinia, when one considers its relative scarcity most everywhere else. According to Rootsi et al (2004) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/table/TB1/), I-M26 has a frequency of about 41% in Sardinia.

It was about 7% among the Basques and nearly 8% among the Bearnais.

It is interesting that some scholars claim to detect a relationship between Nuragic or Paleo-Sardinian and Euskara, the language of the Basques.

Let's not forget however that I2a1a1-M26's brother clade I2a1b-M423 is dominant everywhere in the western Balkans and very high all the way through to the Ukraine. So, parent clade I2a1-P37.2 is not all that uncommon in Europe.

ADW_1981
06-02-2015, 02:31 PM
It is amazing how much I-M26 there is in Sardinia, when one considers its relative scarcity most everywhere else. According to Rootsi et al (2004) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/table/TB1/), I-M26 has a frequency of about 41% in Sardinia.

It was about 7% among the Basques and nearly 8% among the Bearnais.

It is interesting that some scholars claim to detect a relationship between Nuragic or Paleo-Sardinian and Euskara, the language of the Basques.

Isn't the Nuragic period considerably later than the first settlements of Sardinia though? It seems to me that period is more likely to be linked with M269. I was under the impression Nuragic was linked to Beaker style pottery which, if I'm not mistaken has been found among the same ruins. I can't really say right now that I have a source to back that up though :)

rms2
06-02-2015, 03:27 PM
Isn't the Nuragic period considerably later than the first settlements of Sardinia though? It seems to me that period is more likely to be linked with M269. I was under the impression Nuragic was linked to Beaker style pottery which, if I'm not mistaken has been found among the same ruins. I can't really say right now that I have a source to back that up though :)

I'm not sure the period and the language are coterminous, but I am not an expert on ancient Sardinia. It strikes me that there might be something to the alleged connection between Euskara and Paleo-Sardinian, and between the I-M26 among the Basques and the I-M26 found at such a high frequency among the Sardinians.

Perhaps the Nuragic Period has some link to M269, but I can't see any reason to link M269 to the Nuragic language.

vettor
06-02-2015, 07:12 PM
Let's not forget however that I2a1a1-M26's brother clade I2a1b-M423 is dominant everywhere in the western Balkans and very high all the way through to the Ukraine. So, parent clade I2a1-P37.2 is not all that uncommon in Europe.

Let us recall that Italy and western balkans where once joined in the current north-adriatic sea area ( as far south as modern ancona) .

The adriatic refurgium should not be forgotten in regards to migration into Italy from the balkans.

Christina
06-03-2015, 03:14 AM
I remember reading somewhere else where someone pointed out that of the endonyms that we know for several of the tribes that bordered the Tyrhennian sea, in both Spain and Italy -- many of them contain the root oesk* or some variant.

For example, the Basques: Eusk-ara
in Italy, the Osc-i, the Aus-ones.

There are even those who have postulated that the Germanic word "us" or "uns" in German is a relic of the old substrate.

It's all speculative of course.

Christina
06-11-2015, 07:36 PM
With the revelation that the Remedello samples in the recent study everyone's talking about, coming up positive for M26, it can be said with virtual certainty that the old populations of the interior of Italy, which were Oscanized during the Iron Age and then Romanized during historical times, had large numbers of I2a.

Megalophias
06-11-2015, 08:26 PM
There are even those who have postulated that the Germanic word "us" or "uns" in German is a relic of the old substrate.

That's pretty bizarre.

Compare German nom. wir, acc. uns to Hittite wēs, anzās, Sanskrit vayam, asmān (nas), Latin nos-, etc.

vettor
06-11-2015, 08:30 PM
With the revelation that the Remedello samples in the recent study everyone's talking about, coming up positive for M26, it can be said with virtual certainty that the old populations of the interior of Italy, which were Oscanized during the Iron Age and then Romanized during historical times, had large numbers of I2a.

Remedello is north-Italian.....and Villanovan in central italian, was there ever a link truly found.
But, certain Haplogroups don't create cultures, it takes many haplogroups.

R.Rocca
06-11-2015, 08:55 PM
With the revelation that the Remedello samples in the recent study everyone's talking about, coming up positive for M26, it can be said with virtual certainty that the old populations of the interior of Italy, which were Oscanized during the Iron Age and then Romanized during historical times, had large numbers of I2a.

1. I don't know that anyone has said they were M26, but certainly haplogroup I.
2. If nothing had occurred between 2500BC and 1000 BC, you may have had a point, but a whole lot happened in those 1500 years. For one, Bell Beaker shows up in northern and central Italy and subsequent cultures like the Polada Culture are seen as being derived from Bell Beaker.
3. There is no "Oscan" marker nor "Roman" marker. These tribes likely already had all of the markers we see in Italy today. The real question is what impact J2 had and what its timing was. The appearance of J2 in several Iron Age samples from Russia and Armenia, but lacking in European Bronze Age samples really does point towards a J2a mediated event causing the collapse of the Terramare Culture ~1200 BC.

Motzart
06-11-2015, 09:07 PM
1. I don't know that anyone has said they were M26, but certainly haplogroup I.
2. If nothing had occurred between 2500BC and 1000 BC, you may have had a point, but a whole lot happened in those 1500 years. For one, Bell Beaker shows up in northern and central Italy and subsequent cultures like the Polada Culture are seen as being derived from Bell Beaker.
3. There is no "Oscan" marker nor "Roman" marker. These tribes likely already had all of the markers we see in Italy today. The real question is what impact J2 had and what its timing was. The appearance of J2 in several Iron Age samples from Russia and Armenia, but lacking in European Bronze Age samples really does point towards a J2a mediated event causing the collapse of the Terramare Culture ~1200 BC.

Over on the genetiker blog he has remedello as i2a1a1a which is downstream from M26

Christina
06-12-2015, 03:00 AM
Thanks Motzart; I was just about to note the same thing. To the extent Genetiker's info is valid, the Remedello sample(s) are M26 derived.

And regarding some of the other comments, I was speaking rather generically. The isolated parts of Italy remain poorly tested. The revelation recently that some of the mountainous interior tested 10% M26, albeit a small sample, plus the Remedello sample being M26, simply indicates to me that there was M26 in Italy during much of prehistory. It therefore served as a component of the Oscan tribes, notably the Samnites.

This settled a discussion I have read on other boards. There are still those who doubt the Sardinian M26 numbers are from pronounced founder effect. In contrast, others argue that M26 probably was originally concentrated in the South of France and the north central part of Italy. From there it went down the Italian peninsula, along the coast to Iberia, and by boat to Sardinia.

I think the latter is much more likely.

R.Rocca
06-12-2015, 10:59 AM
Thanks Motzart; I was just about to note the same thing. To the extent Genetiker's info is valid, the Remedello sample(s) are M26 derived.

And regarding some of the other comments, I was speaking rather generically. The isolated parts of Italy remain poorly tested. The revelation recently that some of the mountainous interior tested 10% M26, albeit a small sample, plus the Remedello sample being M26, simply indicates to me that there was M26 in Italy during much of prehistory. It therefore served as a component of the Oscan tribes, notably the Samnites.

This settled a discussion I have read on other boards. There are still those who doubt the Sardinian M26 numbers are from pronounced founder effect. In contrast, others argue that M26 probably was originally concentrated in the South of France and the north central part of Italy. From there it went down the Italian peninsula, along the coast to Iberia, and by boat to Sardinia.

I think the latter is much more likely.

Christina, Italy is one of the best, if not "the best" academically tested country in Europe. If M26 was hiding somewhere in mass quantities on the Italian peninsula, we'd already know. I know for U152, an alpine valley has 75% U152+ and the very next town in the very next valley has 0%. So IMO, even if every little corner of Italy is tested, and trust me I wish it would be, I don't think it would change what we already know about the haplogroups there.

Motzart
06-12-2015, 02:32 PM
Italy is one of the best, if not "the best" academically tested country in Europe.

That simply isn't true, except possibly for the case of Sardinia. Places like Catalonia, Iceland, and the Balkans are much better tested. I've read every study done on Italian DNA and they all don't get much larger than n=70-80 for most regions, in particularly Northern Italy. In general the North is the least tested.

Christina
06-12-2015, 03:48 PM
Christina, Italy is one of the best, if not "the best" academically tested country in Europe. If M26 was hiding somewhere in mass quantities on the Italian peninsula, we'd already know. I know for U152, an alpine valley has 75% U152+ and the very next town in the very next valley has 0%. So IMO, even if every little corner of Italy is tested, and trust me I wish it would be, I don't think it would change what we already know about the haplogroups there.

Let me echo the sentiment. That is just...not true.

Sardinia is and has always been the most tested region in the world. (I don't blame the scientists, given the uniqueness of the population, and the beaches!)

There have been some studies on specific regions.

But large swathes of Italy have never been tested, despite intriguing glimpses at what they could reveal.

Here's my wish list, and I know I haven't seen anything on these topics:

--The small towns of Lazio
--The Roman colonies of the peninsula
--Extensive testing on that region (was is Marche or Molise?) that showed a total absence of J in that one study
--Tests on central-south appenine dwellers
--A study on the profound differences between Calabria Latina and Calabria Greca
--A study to determine the presence of Q in Sicily
--A study tracking one of the most ill-understood HGs, T
--A study on the differences between coastal and mountain dwellers

Christina
06-12-2015, 03:51 PM
And also, let's never underestimate the commercial interest in R1b versus I2.

R1b studies are the most discussed on every board everywhere.

R1b has clades defined that other HGs can only dream of.

R1b has incredible data in the commercial databases because of the large numbers.

I am not complaining; it simply is what it is.

R.Rocca
06-12-2015, 04:02 PM
Let me echo the sentiment. That is just...not true.

Sardinia is and has always been the most tested region in the world. (I don't blame the scientists, given the uniqueness of the population, and the beaches!)

There have been some studies on specific regions.

But large swathes of Italy have never been tested, despite intriguing glimpses at what they could reveal.

Here's my wish list, and I know I haven't seen anything on these topics:

--The small towns of Lazio
--The Roman colonies of the peninsula
--Extensive testing on that region (was is Marche or Molise?) that showed a total absence of J in that one study
--Tests on central-south appenine dwellers
--A study on the profound differences between Calabria Latina and Calabria Greca
--A study to determine the presence of Q in Sicily
--A study tracking one of the most ill-understood HGs, T
--A study on the differences between coastal and mountain dwellers

You are trying to answer a question that is a matter of opinion as if it is fact. Boattini 2013 is a very well done study and is much more informative than 99.9% of studies from other countries in th past decade. Of course I would like to see a study of several hundred thousand men from Italy alone, but let's not paint a picture that somehow we are in the dark about what the current makeup of Italian Y-DNA is, because we aren't.

Passa
06-12-2015, 04:41 PM
We are about to see out a new study by Tofanelli on Italy. The interesting thing is that he tested his samples using Geno 2.0. I know this because a friend of mine was included in the study.

Christina
06-12-2015, 09:38 PM
You are trying to answer a question that is a matter of opinion as if it is fact. Boattini 2013 is a very well done study and is much more informative than 99.9% of studies from other countries in th past decade. Of course I would like to see a study of several hundred thousand men from Italy alone, but let's not paint a picture that somehow we are in the dark about what the current makeup of Italian Y-DNA is, because we aren't.

Easy there. I don't think I have posted one thing on this site that you haven't attacked. You don't need to characterize my opinions as too emphatic (or whatever it is you are trying to say. What are you trying to say?)

No one is an arbiter of facts. Almost anything uttered by a human is shaded with perspective.

That being said, didn't Boattini's study was useful as a tool to discuss R1b-U152, and to make broad generalizations of north-south, and east-west gradients. It did not however break any new ground in terms of Y-DNA from poorly understood regions.

I am looking at Eupedia's collection of studies on Italian Y-DNA, and it has next to nothing south of Rome:

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_italian_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

And so the statement remains: there are regions and provinces that have been almost ignored in Italy, particularly the more rural, mountainous parts of South Italy -- precisely where interesting, relict DNA is most likely to be found.

R.Rocca
06-12-2015, 10:58 PM
Easy there. I don't think I have posted one thing on this site that you haven't attacked. You don't need to characterize my opinions as too emphatic (or whatever it is you are trying to say. What are you trying to say?)

No one is an arbiter of facts. Almost anything uttered by a human is shaded with perspective.

That being said, didn't Boattini's study was useful as a tool to discuss R1b-U152, and to make broad generalizations of north-south, and east-west gradients. It did not however break any new ground in terms of Y-DNA from poorly understood regions.

I am looking at Eupedia's collection of studies on Italian Y-DNA, and it has next to nothing south of Rome:

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_italian_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

And so the statement remains: there are regions and provinces that have been almost ignored in Italy, particularly the more rural, mountainous parts of South Italy -- precisely where interesting, relict DNA is most likely to be found.

Attack? Easy there, nobody is attacking anyone.

You may want to look at Sarno 2014. While it is primarily a paper on Sicily, it does have some info from Southern Italy.

vettor
06-12-2015, 11:48 PM
Easy there. I don't think I have posted one thing on this site that you haven't attacked. You don't need to characterize my opinions as too emphatic (or whatever it is you are trying to say. What are you trying to say?)

No one is an arbiter of facts. Almost anything uttered by a human is shaded with perspective.

That being said, didn't Boattini's study was useful as a tool to discuss R1b-U152, and to make broad generalizations of north-south, and east-west gradients. It did not however break any new ground in terms of Y-DNA from poorly understood regions.

I am looking at Eupedia's collection of studies on Italian Y-DNA, and it has next to nothing south of Rome:

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/regional_italian_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

And so the statement remains: there are regions and provinces that have been almost ignored in Italy, particularly the more rural, mountainous parts of South Italy -- precisely where interesting, relict DNA is most likely to be found.

italian regional studies are far better like
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056371
with its many spreadsheet ydna data at the bottom

or the trentino laboratory which only does trentino/south tyrol areas for genetics.

the italian national studies are border on hopelessness , like the one that failed to gather ydna from Udine but got the mtdna from there............why pick and choose!

Rocca , is correct , every valley is different

vettor
06-13-2015, 12:06 AM
Thanks Motzart; I was just about to note the same thing. To the extent Genetiker's info is valid, the Remedello sample(s) are M26 derived.

And regarding some of the other comments, I was speaking rather generically. The isolated parts of Italy remain poorly tested. The revelation recently that some of the mountainous interior tested 10% M26, albeit a small sample, plus the Remedello sample being M26, simply indicates to me that there was M26 in Italy during much of prehistory. It therefore served as a component of the Oscan tribes, notably the Samnites.

This settled a discussion I have read on other boards. There are still those who doubt the Sardinian M26 numbers are from pronounced founder effect. In contrast, others argue that M26 probably was originally concentrated in the South of France and the north central part of Italy. From there it went down the Italian peninsula, along the coast to Iberia, and by boat to Sardinia.

I think the latter is much more likely.

You can also ask ......why is Remedello, the only area from this new study which has mtdna of X2

Motzart
06-13-2015, 12:14 AM
Easy there. I don't think I have posted one thing on this site that you haven't attacked. You don't need to characterize my opinions as too emphatic (or whatever it is you are trying to say. What are you trying to say?)


Be prepared to face stiff resistance when disagreeing with any of the R1b gang about their mutually agreed upon narratives. :laugh:

Christina
06-13-2015, 12:30 AM
Totally agree: every Valley is different, and every mountaintop too! Italy has the largest Y-DNA diversity of any country in Europe.

When a study lumps all of Calabria into one broad region and tests from one town, it's way too generalized for such a long (mileage wise) region with such different history. The mountains of the north are mostly relicts of Bruttian populations and Romans, whereas the coasts of the south are where the Greek colonies were.

When a study doesn't sample Basilicata at all (which is arguably the most isolated region on the mainland) or samples only Matera, it's too generalized.

When a study samples from the city of Naples but not backwater Campania, it's too generalized.

When all of Sicily is represented by Piazza Armerina (several studies), it's too generalized.

Anti
10-14-2015, 08:09 PM
Personnaly, I think Hannibal with his dramatic bloody victories—Trebia, Trasimene, and Cannae and campaihns during fifteen years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Punic_War , created important changes in the Roman population composition, then the enormous imperialist campains of 2th century bc thru Greece , Anatolia, Gallia, Iberia, Africa forced Roman power to recruit soldiers in all Italy, with large distribution of Roman citizenship. During the civil wars of the first century BC, Roman generals didn't care about the legal rules of recruitment in the Roman citizens of Italy. The only rule of recruitment were men who don't flee in presence of armed ennemis.

At the end of Caesar's campaigns, his soldiers were enough politically powerful to obtain colonies in their natal countries. For instance , in the colonies established at Orange and Arles in Narbonaise, the retired soldiers had been essentially recruited in the indigenous populations of Narbonaise (and even in independant tribes neighbouring of Narbonaise), by Pompeus during the long war against Sertorious in Spain and by Caesar the conquest of the remaining independant Gallia. Neither Pompeus , nor Caesar didn't want to demand Roman senate new troops to compensate their loses.

Under Augustus, Strabon said the Narbonaise city with the greater number of Roman citizens were not a colony like Narbonne (Narbo Martius), Lyon (Lugdunum),Frejus (Forum Julii), Arles (Arelate), Orange (Arausia) but Nimes (Nemausus) capital of the indigenous Volques. In more in 1st century AD, modern historians have noticed the inhabitants of Narbonaise who entered Roman Senate come from Roman colonies rarely, bur were Gaulish aristocrats coming from the capital of indigenous people, Nimes capital of the Volques, Vaison capital of the Voconces, Vienne capital of Allobrogues, Toulouse, capital of Tolosates . Probably the rich gaulish aristoraty were a lot more educated in the Greco-roman litterate and juridic culture and with more political relations in the Roman power than the modest exploitants of the small farms in the colonies.

Therefore for me, already the composition of the initial roman composition changed around 216 BC after Trasimene and Cannae; for instance don't forget the "Sempronians", freed slaves engaged as soldiers under the general Sempronius Gracchus ancestor of the famous Grachus brothers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Sempronius_Gracchus_(consul_215_BC)

He was elected consul in 216 BC, ..... In that year, Fabius Maximus and the Senate decided to induct volunteer slaves into the Roman armies and to have them serve in separate legions to win their freedom. Gracchus was appointed commander of the slave troops. He rapidly became known as an effective general of the volunteer slave troops, winning their loyalty and trust for his clemency when some broke and ran from the field. [Livy]. He was appointed proconsul in 214 BC, continuing to lead his slave and freedmen troops in central and southern Italy against Hannibal, with mixed success.

The old Romans reduced the influence of all these newcomers in elections by inscribing them in the urban tribes . In the electoral roman system all tribes had the same weigh therefore A small rural tribe = a big urban tribe and ther were numeous rural tribes and some urban tribes . This involved the political weight of the urban tribes were very reduced; except by street unrests.

We can think the Sempronians issued of te freed slaves remained in the political clientele of the aristocratic Sempronian Grachus gens. This can explain the political action of the Gracchus grothers to keep their popular clientele , same thing for their ally in the social reforms the very proud aristocrat Appius Claudius whose gens had also an important popular clientele coming fom Sabine .

Complete nonsense from start to finish;

In Roman history (Republic/Empire) only Citizens were eligible for the Legions;
And who was a Citizen of Rome is historically very easily traceable;

Before the Marian-reforms only Citizens of certain classes with an amount of financial/property (especially assidui class) were allowed for the Legions; The Marian reform broke down the social class requirement and all Citizens (regardless of class/property i.e. Capite censi/proletarii) were than eligible for the Legions; The Social-war of 89/88BC than granted citizenship to all Italic tribes (former Socii) with the Lex Julia, Lex Plautia Papiria and Lex Pompeia; In 49BC Julius Caesar collectively granted all Cisalpine Gaul the citizenship with the Lex Roscia - Drastically increasing the number of Citizens and thus also the amount of recruits eligible for the Legions;

Pat Southern - The Roman Army: A Social and Institutional History (2006/Oxford Uni.)
http://s17.postimg.org/5mkb5903v/oa1.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/5mkb5903v/)

B. Campbell (The Roman Army, 31 BC–AD 337 p.9) also states "From 49 to 32 BC about 420,000 Italians were recruited" - which would thus be the Veteran (citizen) stock that was largely sent to the provinces (colonies) during Augustus; The Lex Calpurnia however also allowed citizenship to be granted for distinguished bravery - as example the 1,000 Socii from Camerinum after Vercellae 101BC (Plutarch Mar. XXXVIII) or the auxiliary (later Leg. XXII Deiotariana) after Zela; Such was the Republic;

Based on Epigraphics (Keppie 2000 / Birley 1979) concerning the early Imperial era from Augustus to Claudius (27BC-41AD) the Legion ratio was 2/3 - 4/5 Italian Legionaries; By Claudius/Nero (41AD-69AD) the ratio dropped to 1/2 of Italian Legionaries and in the era (69AD-117AD) Italian Legionaries were 1/5 in the West and 1/10 in the East (Alston 1995); Keeping in mind however that the "provincial" Legionaries were of Italic stock (i.e. Veterans/Citizens), and Roman Italica (post 117AD) still provided the single largest contingent of any province in the Empire (Yann Le Bohec 1989), Centurions were still overwhelmingly Italic (Yann Le Bohec 1989) and the Praetorians were exclusively Italic (until Septimus Severus) and Mark Aurel even raised two complete/exclusive Italic Legions (Italica II/Italica III) for the Marcomannic-wars; The Empire ended in 212AD (Constitutio Antoniniana) which granted all peoples of the Roman world Citizenship (except Slaves) and this century was marked by civil-wars, usurpators, secessionist empires and ended with the Tetrarchy and Rome no longer being the Capitol;

PS: The admission of Gauls (and others from other provinces) into the Senate only began with Claudius i.e. a good century after Caesar's Gallic-wars; The recorded speech (Ann. XI/XXIV) by Tacitus is set in the consulship of Aulus Vitellius (48AD) and is manifested in Lyon-tablet (CIL XIII.1668/ILS 212); Keeping in mind that the Aedui were always considered 'Brothers' of the Romans: Tacitus Ann. XI/XXV: "The emperor's speech was followed by a resolution of the Fathers, and the Aedui became the first to acquire senatorial rights in the capital: a concession to a long-standing treaty and to their position as the only Gallic community enjoying the title of brothers to the Roman people" There were however more than twice as many Senators from Transalpine-Gaul than the other Gaul provinces (The City in the Roman West - Cambridge Uni. 2011 / p.305);

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/48claudius.asp
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/claud.inscr.html (Column II)

And it was also during the reign of Claudius (mid 1st cen AD) that auxiliary soldiers were granted the Roman citizenship upon discharge plus the conubium right; But still only the/those Citizens were eligible for the Legions;

The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare: Vol.2 (2007)
Then, from the time of the emperor Claudius, who set thirty years as the maximum term of service, auxiliary soldiers of good character were automatically given citizenship after twenty-five years. In addition, they received the right of conubium, which legitimized any informal union with a woman (Augustus had forbidden soldiers to marry), so that any children born after the man had joined the army were Roman citizens also.

Josiah Osgood - Claudius Caesar: Image and Power in the Early Roman Empire (2011 / Cambridge Uni.)
But beginning in the reign of Claudius, it seems, for time-served auxiliaries a standard bundle of rewards was created – the emperor's grant of citizenship to the discharged man and his descendants, and the right of a marriage valid in Roman law – and bronze diplomas were issued to the discharged auxiliaries as tangible proof of their rewards

The grant of Citizenship was documented by a Bronze-tablet: Such doucuments (tablets) become Archaeologically most prominant during the Flavian-dynasty;

Richard Alston - Aspects of Roman History AD 14–117 (1998)
Much of our information concerning auxiliary units comes from a series of bronze diplomas. These documents attest the grant of citizenship to those leaving auxiliary units after their term of service. We have a few diplomas from the period before AD 69, but it is only after AD 69 that these documents appear to be issued regularly.

PPS: Arles {Colonia Julia Paterna Arelate Sextanorum} was a colony of veterans from the Leg. VI Ferrata, a legion that was levied by Caesar in Cisalpine Gaul, not Transalpine Gaul; Before Caesar granted all Cisalpine Gaul citizenship he had levied two Auxiliary Legions (De Bel. Gal. I/XXIV) who fought at Bibracte; the reason he granted the Cisalpine citizenship was to ensure recruitment for his war against the Optimates (Pompey);

PPPS: The Slave Legions of Sempronius Gracchus (Beneventum 214BC) were most prob. the captured Gauls from the Telamon campaign a few years earlier; Livius (XXIV/XVI) mentions head hunting during the battle (a Gaulish custom); And as for their fate, Livius (XXIV) gives this explanation in XVIII: "Then the masters of the slaves, to whom Sempronius had granted their freedom at Beneventum, assembled, saying, they had been called by the public commissioners to receive the price of their slaves, but would not accept of it before the war was ended" - Whether they were granted Citizenship is thus doubtful; But apart from their head-hunting trophies (Liv.XXIV/XV) they also took (Liv.XXIV/XVII) the enemy camp so a little bit of self financing/rewards; And they remained loyal to T. Sempronius Gracchus until his death (Liv.XXV/XX);

Anti
10-14-2015, 10:20 PM
Concerning the Y-Chromosome Haplogroups of pre-Roman/pre-Indo-European Italy;
I would strongly guess (generally based on Neolithic Europe / specifically based on Remedello and Ötzi) to be I2a1 and G2a, with also some E-V13 and J2;

Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 Uni.Mainz - p.138
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf
2 Neolithic (5200-3800BC) samples of the Transdanubia/west-Carpathian were E-M78 and a downstream E-V13 in Neolithic Iberia (Lacan et al 2011) as well as two J2 samples;

Although given the Remedello samples (uniformal I2a1) i think J2 as well as R1b entered during the Bronze-age Urnfield-culture - expansion into Italy (Canegrate-Golasecca/Este/proto-Villanova);

R1b-M269 is heavily linked (by all recent data) with the Bell-Beakers, especially the Eastern Bell-Beakers where also one R1b-U152 was found; Eastern Beakers play a role in the development of Unetice-culture; Meaning that if Bell-Beakers were not Indo-Euroepans, their most Eastern Branch was most def. Indo-Europeanised and as such a population migrated via Urnfield into Italy; All Indo-European languages in Italy (Lepontic/Venetic/Latin/Sabellic langs.) derive from an Urnfield culture and Urnfield derives from Tumulus<Unetice;

http://s13.postimg.org/btcg71m03/COT1.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/btcg71m03/)

The Roman period would have only differed from the Neolithic with the infusion of Indo-Europeans (Bronze-age) and the hg's (U152/pos.J2) and Steppe/Caucasus admixture established; Yet, apart from the Sardinians, also modern-day Italians (those tested: Bergamo, Tuscany) seem to have retained a good amount of EEF-admixture til this day; Which bolsters my assumption that the Indo-Europeans of the Urnfield were already admixed (during the Chalcolithic/early-Bronze-age) before descending into Italy;

Concerning the topic however, keeping in mind that Roman was never an ethnicity, Roman was always a right; Even in the up most beginnings of the Republic the Latins and Sabines were Citizens of Rome and not a "tribe" called Romans;

Cicero (DE LEGIBUS II/V)
Att. - ....Nisi forte sapienti illi Catoni fuit patria non Roma sed Tusculum.
[Unless perhaps the country of Cato was not Rome but Tusculum]
Mar. - Ego mehercule et illi et omnibus municipibus duas esse censeo patrias, unam naturae, alteram civitatis....
[But i do think that he and everyone from a municipium has two countries, one by descent and one by citizenship]

Gravetto-Danubian
10-14-2015, 10:40 PM
Anti



R1b-M269 is heavily linked (by all recent data) with the Bell-Beakers, especially the Eastern Bell-Beakers where also one R1b-U152 was found; Eastern Beakers play a role in the development of Unetice-culture; Meaning that if Bell-Beakers were not Indo-Euroepans, their most Eastern Branch was most def. Indo-Europeanised and as such a population migrated via Urnfield into Italy; All Indo-European languages in Italy (Lepontic/Venetic/Latin/Sabellic langs.) derive from an Urnfield culture and Urnfield derives from Tumulus<Unetice;


Agree with that summary. It's clear that most of BB was not IE, especially early phases.
So some theories propounded have already proven wrong

David Mc
10-14-2015, 10:59 PM
Anti



Agree with that summary. It's clear that most of BB was not IE, especially early phases.
So some theories propounded have already proven wrong

Say what? I also think Anti gave a wonderful summary, but I didn't understand him to be saying what you're saying. Exactly how is it clear that "most" BB was not IE. It's at moments like these when it really looks like you're trolling. It might be good for you to answer me in a more Bell-Beaker focused thread, though.

jdean
10-14-2015, 11:12 PM
Say what? I also think Anti gave a wonderful summary, but I didn't understand him to be saying what you're saying. Exactly how is it clear that "most" BB was not IE. It's at moments like these when it really looks like you're trolling. It might be good for you to answer me in a more Bell-Beaker focused thread, though.

I'm inclined to agree.

R.Rocca
10-15-2015, 08:38 PM
Concerning the Y-Chromosome Haplogroups of pre-Roman/pre-Indo-European Italy;
I would strongly guess (generally based on Neolithic Europe / specifically based on Remedello and Ötzi) to be I2a1 and G2a, with also some E-V13 and J2;

Szécsényi-Nagy 2015 Uni.Mainz - p.138
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf
2 Neolithic (5200-3800BC) samples of the Transdanubia/west-Carpathian were E-M78 and a downstream E-V13 in Neolithic Iberia (Lacan et al 2011) as well as two J2 samples;

Although given the Remedello samples (uniformal I2a1) i think J2 as well as R1b entered during the Bronze-age Urnfield-culture - expansion into Italy (Canegrate-Golasecca/Este/proto-Villanova);

R1b-M269 is heavily linked (by all recent data) with the Bell-Beakers, especially the Eastern Bell-Beakers where also one R1b-U152 was found; Eastern Beakers play a role in the development of Unetice-culture; Meaning that if Bell-Beakers were not Indo-Euroepans, their most Eastern Branch was most def. Indo-Europeanised and as such a population migrated via Urnfield into Italy; All Indo-European languages in Italy (Lepontic/Venetic/Latin/Sabellic langs.) derive from an Urnfield culture and Urnfield derives from Tumulus<Unetice;

The Roman period would have only differed from the Neolithic with the infusion of Indo-Europeans (Bronze-age) and the hg's (U152/pos.J2) and Steppe/Caucasus admixture established; Yet, apart from the Sardinians, also modern-day Italians (those tested: Bergamo, Tuscany) seem to have retained a good amount of EEF-admixture til this day; Which bolsters my assumption that the Indo-Europeans of the Urnfield were already admixed (during the Chalcolithic/early-Bronze-age) before descending into Italy;


Bell Beaker in Italy was dominant in the same areas where U152 dominates today, so I don't see how one could detach the two. Also the Polada Culture was the successor to Bell Beaker in northern Italy and it shares many feature with Gata-Wieselburg... and there are plenty of Gata-Wieselburg material from north-east Italy. We know that the lone Hungarian Gata-Wieselburg was R1b+, so again, plenty of signs that U152 was in Italy much earlier than Urnfield. To add, Terramare was likely already an "Italic" speaking culture and predominantly R1b+.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-15-2015, 08:58 PM
Say what? I also think Anti gave a wonderful summary, but I didn't understand him to be saying what you're saying. Exactly how is it clear that "most" BB was not IE. It's at moments like these when it really looks like you're trolling. It might be good for you to answer me in a more Bell-Beaker focused thread, though.

Now now. Dave be nice. You know our past debates are simply to bring forth some inconsistencies in arguments and debate some nitty -gritty details .
On this occasion I admit poor wording- my bad

Not "most" but perhaps westernmost and some of the earliest BB were not R1b.
We know that Iberia was still essentially copper age, and potentially Italy, until c. 2000 BC.

This means Indo-European spread into these regions later from a central eastern European heartland.
Does anyone recall when the first unequivocal M269 west of the Black Sea dates from ?

Gravetto-Danubian
10-15-2015, 10:23 PM
Although R1b/ ANE might have entered Italy as early as 2500 BC
(as Rich reminded me on another thread).

Anti
10-15-2015, 11:05 PM
Bell Beaker in Italy was dominant in the same areas where U152 dominates today, so I don't see how one could detach the two. Also the Polada Culture was the successor to Bell Beaker in northern Italy and it shares many feature with Gata-Wieselburg... and there are plenty of Gata-Wieselburg material from north-east Italy. We know that the lone Hungarian Gata-Wieselburg was R1b+, so again, plenty of signs that U152 was in Italy much earlier than Urnfield. To add, Terramare was likely already an "Italic" speaking culture and predominantly R1b+.

In the Archaeological context Bell-Beaker was rather scarce in Italy, if it ever existed as such at all; There are suggestions that Bell-Beaker had an influence in certain other cultures (in Italy), but also these are at best limited; The Urnfield-culture (in Italy) on the other hand is very substantial, in fact so much so, that it forms the basis of the Iron-age and everything that followed; And with Unetice, there is a direct-continuity from Bell-Beakers (eastern branch) to Urnfield;

Remedello (phaseI: Ötzi & RISE487 / phaseII: RISE486 & RISE489) display an immense common ancestry to the EEFs; In fact the only diff. between these framers-groups from all over Europe and era - may they be from EN, MN or Chalcolithic - is the gradient of WHG admixture i.e. the level of inter-mixture with the pre-existing Hunter-Gatherer population; As shown that MN-farmers have more than their ancestral EN-farmers and more than isolated farmer-groups (Alps); This Genetic insight sheds a significant light on Archaeology in that the Agricultural spread (across Europe) was not cultural but wholly physical, yet the fundamental cultural-transition (Stone-age>Metallurgic-age) was not wholly physical but also cultural; For the Chalcolithic folks of Iberia and Remedello (noted for Copper axes and daggers) are still identical to the MN and EN farmers (respectively) than to Bell-Beaker and Corded-ware folks;

This Genetic-insight debunks certain Archaeological assumptions that Remedello had an early Indo-European (or foreign in general) infusion; And i am certain the same result will exist concerning Polada and Terremare, in that Polada and Terremare are simply continuities of the same Neolithic stock (European EN and MN farmers) specifically akin to Ötzi and Remedello; It is also interesting to note that the Bonnanaro-culture (Sardinia early 2ndmil.BC / prime stage of Nuragic-civ.) shares similarities with Polada in Northern Italy; Beginning ~1200BC Italy however experienced an substantial-influx of a foreign migration - Urnfield;

Now, i do think that Bell-Beakers were also an Indo-European east>west migration (or at least Indo-Europeanised) due to their high levels of Yamnaya-admixture and also the R1b-M269 link;
Szécsényi-Nagy - p.142
The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015)

In this context of early-Indo-European migrations i would also place the R1b's in the Balkans/west-Carpathians who date to cultures of the Chalcolithic and early Bronze-age; A link between Italy and Carpathians exists but this is also within Urnfield context;
The Cambridge Ancient History Vol.III - (1982 / Cambridge Uni.)
http://s23.postimg.org/fapnzu0kn/oa1.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/fapnzu0kn/)

And i do have a question to you; In Haak et al - Yamnaya R1b is L23 (certain) but how certain (and i have noticed this claim on the i-net) is that they were already down-stream Z2103?

R.Rocca
10-15-2015, 11:39 PM
In the Archaeological context Bell-Beaker was rather scarce in Italy, if it ever existed as such at all; There are suggestions that Bell-Beaker had an influence in certain other cultures (in Italy), but also these are at best limited; The Urnfield-culture (in Italy) on the other hand is overwhelmingly substantial, in fact so much so, that it forms the basis of the Iron-age and everything that followed; And with Unetice, there is a direct-continuity from Bell-Beakers (eastern branch) to Urnfield;

Remedello (phaseI: Ötzi & RISE487 / phaseII: RISE486/RISE489) display an immense common ancestry to the EEFs; In fact the only diff. between these framers-groups from all over Europe and era - may they be from EN, MN or Chalcolithic - is the gradient of WHG admixture i.e. the level of inter-mixture with the pre-existing Hunter-Gatherer population; As shown that MN-farmers have more than their ancestral EN-farmers and more than isolated farmer-groups (Alps); This Genetic insight sheds a significant light on Archaeology in that the Agricultural spread (across Europe) was not cultural but wholly physical, yet the fundamental cultural-transition (Stone-age>Metallurgic-age) was not wholly physical but also cultural; For the Chalcolithic folks of Iberia and Remedello (noted for Copper axes and daggers) are still identical to the MN and EN farmers (respectively) than to Bell-Beaker and Corded-ware folks;

This Genetic-insight debunks certain Archaeological assumptions that Remedello had an early Indo-European (or foreign in general) infusion; And i am certain the same result will exist concerning Polada and Terremare, in that Polada and Terremare are simply continuities of the same Neolithic stock (European EN and MN farmers) specifically akin to Ötzi and Remedello; It is also interesting to note that the Bonnanaro-culture (Sardinia early 2ndmil.BC / prime stage of Nuragic-civ.) shares similarities with Polada in Northern Italy; Beginning ~1200BC Italy however experienced an substantial-influx of a foreign migration - Urnfield;

Now, i do think that Bell-Beakers were also an Indo-European east>west migration due to their high levels of Yamnaya-admixture and also the R1b-M269 link;
Szécsényi-Nagy - p.142
The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015)

In this context of early-Indo-European migrations i would also place the R1b's in the Balkans/west-Carpathians who date to cultures of the Chalcolithic and early Bronze-age; A link between Italy and Carpathians exists but this is also within Urnfield context;
The Cambridge Ancient History Vol.III - (1982 / Cambridge Uni.)
http://s23.postimg.org/fapnzu0kn/oa1.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/fapnzu0kn/)

And i do have a question to you; In Haak et al - Yamnaya R1b is L23 (certain) but how certain (and i have noticed this claim on the i-net) is that they were already down-stream Z2103?

Sorry, but wherever you read that, its nonsense. I can quote a million resources, but better to just recommend that you read an entire book on Italian Bell Beakers call "Simbolo ed enigma : il bicchiere campaniforme e l'Italia nella preistoria europea del III millennio a.C." by Franco Nicolis.

The Polada Culture is derived from Bell Beaker, so much so that its people kept the tradition of archery and wrist guards throughout. You also completely ignored what I said about Gata-Wieselberg, which is not an Urnfield Culture, but an Early Bronze Age contemporary of Polada.

Anti
10-16-2015, 12:05 AM
Sorry, but wherever you read that, its nonsense. I can quote a million resources, but better to just recommend that you read an entire book on Italian Bell Beakers call "Simbolo ed enigma : il bicchiere campaniforme e l'Italia nella preistoria europea del III millennio a.C." by Franco Nicolis.

I have read the recent Czebrezsuk book;
Yet his polythetic-analyses also includes pre-Bell-Beaker (Neolithic) types; All in all we just have to wait for Polada and Terremare results than;


The Polada Culture is derived from Bell Beaker, so much so that its people kept the tradition of archery and wrist guards throughout.

The Remedello folks were also Archers;
So is the 'wrist guard' now the overwhelminng evidence of continuity?
That is what i meant with 'suggested influence', but limited at best;


You also completely ignored what I said about Gata-Wieselberg, which is not an Urnfield Culture, but an Early Bronze Age contemporary of Polada.

I didnt ignore it;
I am just not familiar with what you mentioned; Are you referring to Castelliere?

R.Rocca
10-16-2015, 04:04 PM
The Remedello folks were also Archers;
So is the 'wrist guard' now the overwhelminng evidence of continuity?
That is what i meant with 'suggested influence', but limited at best;

Plain and simple, Polada was the successors of Bell Beaker in northern Italy, that is almost universally accepted by Italian archaeologists.



I didnt ignore it;
I am just not familiar with what you mentioned; Are you referring to Castelliere?

Gata-Wieselberg is a culture that has already tested R1b+... and its material is found in NE Italy as well. So, we don't need to "wait" until Urnfield to find these similarities.

Anti
10-18-2015, 06:55 PM
Plain and simple, Polada was the successors of Bell Beaker in northern Italy, that is almost universally accepted by Italian archaeologists.

The Polada-culture illustrates contacts with several cultures north of the Alps from Bell-Beaker>Unetice; But by all archaeological records (incl. italian) the Beaker element in Polada is very limited and very regional (at best) i.e. not suggesting a migration but contact/exchange; The Remedello-culture and folks are now a clear certainty and the Polada era folks were most def. the same stock people, keeping in mind that RISE486 was Polada-era but from the Remedello type-site; Anything before ~1200BC Urnfield is too scarce to account for a massive migration that would justify U152 in the amount it is today in the Po-valley and cent.Italy; The Terremare-culture practiced cremation, thus the best proxy would than be the contemporary pile-dwelling folks of the Verona plain, where both cremation and inhumation was practiced; If R1b/Indo-Europeans already existed during the mid-Bronze-age in Italy, than evidence for such will surly be found in the prominent necropolis of Olmo di Nogara, and/or the others;
http://www.pia-journal.co.uk/articles/10.5334/pia.462/
http://s14.postimg.org/wnwyljayl/asasa.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/wnwyljayl/)

What is certain is that the 12th century BC was a period of disruption;
So also in Italy with the collapse of the Terremare yet the subsequent emergence of Urnfield;
And Urnfield is a certainty based on its extensive archaeological-record as well as the linguistic reality that all Indo-European languages of Italy derived from it;


Gata-Wieselberg is a culture that has already tested R1b+... and its material is found in NE Italy as well. So, we don't need to "wait" until Urnfield to find these similarities.

I understood that part, what i ddint understand was what culture in NE Italy you were referring to;

Tomenable
12-02-2015, 03:15 AM
In Roman history (Republic/Empire) only Citizens were eligible for the Legions;
And who was a Citizen of Rome is historically very easily traceable;

Before the Marian-reforms only Citizens of certain classes with an amount of financial/property (especially assidui class) were allowed for the Legions; The Marian reform broke down the social class requirement and all Citizens (regardless of class/property i.e. Capite censi/proletarii) were than eligible for the Legions; The Social-war of 89/88BC than granted citizenship to all Italic tribes (former Socii) with the Lex Julia, Lex Plautia Papiria and Lex Pompeia; In 49BC Julius Caesar collectively granted all Cisalpine Gaul the citizenship with the Lex Roscia - Drastically increasing the number of Citizens and thus also the amount of recruits eligible for the Legions;

Pat Southern - The Roman Army: A Social and Institutional History (2006/Oxford Uni.)
http://s17.postimg.org/5mkb5903v/oa1.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/5mkb5903v/)

B. Campbell (The Roman Army, 31 BC–AD 337 p.9) also states "From 49 to 32 BC about 420,000 Italians were recruited" - which would thus be the Veteran (citizen) stock that was largely sent to the provinces (colonies) during Augustus; The Lex Calpurnia however also allowed citizenship to be granted for distinguished bravery - as example the 1,000 Socii from Camerinum after Vercellae 101BC (Plutarch Mar. XXXVIII) or the auxiliary (later Leg. XXII Deiotariana) after Zela; Such was the Republic;

Based on Epigraphics (Keppie 2000 / Birley 1979) concerning the early Imperial era from Augustus to Claudius (27BC-41AD) the Legion ratio was 2/3 - 4/5 Italian Legionaries; By Claudius/Nero (41AD-69AD) the ratio dropped to 1/2 of Italian Legionaries and in the era (69AD-117AD) Italian Legionaries were 1/5 in the West and 1/10 in the East (Alston 1995); Keeping in mind however that the "provincial" Legionaries were of Italic stock (i.e. Veterans/Citizens), and Roman Italica (post 117AD) still provided the single largest contingent of any province in the Empire (Yann Le Bohec 1989), Centurions were still overwhelmingly Italic (Yann Le Bohec 1989) and the Praetorians were exclusively Italic (until Septimus Severus) and Mark Aurel even raised two complete/exclusive Italic Legions (Italica II/Italica III) for the Marcomannic-wars; The Empire ended in 212AD (Constitutio Antoniniana) which granted all peoples of the Roman world Citizenship (except Slaves) and this century was marked by civil-wars, usurpators, secessionist empires and ended with the Tetrarchy and Rome no longer being the Capitol;

PS: The admission of Gauls (and others from other provinces) into the Senate only began with Claudius i.e. a good century after Caesar's Gallic-wars; The recorded speech (Ann. XI/XXIV) by Tacitus is set in the consulship of Aulus Vitellius (48AD) and is manifested in Lyon-tablet (CIL XIII.1668/ILS 212); Keeping in mind that the Aedui were always considered 'Brothers' of the Romans: Tacitus Ann. XI/XXV: "The emperor's speech was followed by a resolution of the Fathers, and the Aedui became the first to acquire senatorial rights in the capital: a concession to a long-standing treaty and to their position as the only Gallic community enjoying the title of brothers to the Roman people" There were however more than twice as many Senators from Transalpine-Gaul than the other Gaul provinces (The City in the Roman West - Cambridge Uni. 2011 / p.305);

http://legacy.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/48claudius.asp
http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/claud.inscr.html (Column II)

And it was also during the reign of Claudius (mid 1st cen AD) that auxiliary soldiers were granted the Roman citizenship upon discharge plus the conubium right; But still only the/those Citizens were eligible for the Legions;

The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare: Vol.2 (2007)
Then, from the time of the emperor Claudius, who set thirty years as the maximum term of service, auxiliary soldiers of good character were automatically given citizenship after twenty-five years. In addition, they received the right of conubium, which legitimized any informal union with a woman (Augustus had forbidden soldiers to marry), so that any children born after the man had joined the army were Roman citizens also.

Josiah Osgood - Claudius Caesar: Image and Power in the Early Roman Empire (2011 / Cambridge Uni.)
But beginning in the reign of Claudius, it seems, for time-served auxiliaries a standard bundle of rewards was created – the emperor's grant of citizenship to the discharged man and his descendants, and the right of a marriage valid in Roman law – and bronze diplomas were issued to the discharged auxiliaries as tangible proof of their rewards

The grant of Citizenship was documented by a Bronze-tablet: Such doucuments (tablets) become Archaeologically most prominant during the Flavian-dynasty;

Richard Alston - Aspects of Roman History AD 14–117 (1998)
Much of our information concerning auxiliary units comes from a series of bronze diplomas. These documents attest the grant of citizenship to those leaving auxiliary units after their term of service. We have a few diplomas from the period before AD 69, but it is only after AD 69 that these documents appear to be issued regularly.

PPS: Arles {Colonia Julia Paterna Arelate Sextanorum} was a colony of veterans from the Leg. VI Ferrata, a legion that was levied by Caesar in Cisalpine Gaul, not Transalpine Gaul; Before Caesar granted all Cisalpine Gaul citizenship he had levied two Auxiliary Legions (De Bel. Gal. I/XXIV) who fought at Bibracte; the reason he granted the Cisalpine citizenship was to ensure recruitment for his war against the Optimates (Pompey);

PPPS: The Slave Legions of Sempronius Gracchus (Beneventum 214BC) were most prob. the captured Gauls from the Telamon campaign a few years earlier; Livius (XXIV/XVI) mentions head hunting during the battle (a Gaulish custom); And as for their fate, Livius (XXIV) gives this explanation in XVIII: "Then the masters of the slaves, to whom Sempronius had granted their freedom at Beneventum, assembled, saying, they had been called by the public commissioners to receive the price of their slaves, but would not accept of it before the war was ended" - Whether they were granted Citizenship is thus doubtful; But apart from their head-hunting trophies (Liv.XXIV/XV) they also took (Liv.XXIV/XVII) the enemy camp so a little bit of self financing/rewards; And they remained loyal to T. Sempronius Gracchus until his death (Liv.XXV/XX);

More about the ethnic composition of some of Roman legions:

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2012/05/24/hounds-of-the-empire-celtic-roman-legions-on-the-balkans/

https://www.academia.edu/589496/The_military_peregrini_of_Dacia

And also:


(...) Peoples speaking Celtic languages were prolific throughout the Roman Empire. Apart from their obvious 'heartland' in Britain and Gaul, they could be found throughout northern Italy, Spain, and the Balkans. A Gaulish-speaking community existed in central Asia minor (the 'Galatians') and there was (or historically had been) a small Celtic community in northern Africa, including Egypt. Several Roman emperors, including the Antonines, the Severans, several 3rd Century usurpers, and possibly even Trajan and Hadrian all had partly Celtic roots. Individuals who were Celtic by culture and language were common recruits into both the legions and the auxiliary units of Imperial Rome – in fact, if we count persons hailing from Celtic-influenced regions, they were the single largest contributor of recruits. The following are a couple of basic figures supporting the stance that Celtic-speaking peoples were prominent in the Imperial Roman Army: Ann Hyland, in Equus: The Horse in the Roman World, provides a chart describing the recruitment of auxiliary cavalry during the Flavian Dynasty. She claims that 33% of all recruits hailed from Gallia Lugdunensis ("longhaired Gaul"), with another 9% from Gallia Belgica, 4% from Brittanica, and 2.5% from Gallia Narbonensis. Another 11.5% of recruits came from Thrace, 10% more from Pannonia, and 2.5% from Moesia. In other words, in the Flavian period 49% of all auxiliary cavalrymen were recruited in exclusively Celtic-speaking provinces, and 74% of all auxiliary cavalrymen came from provinces that were under large degrees of Celtic cultural, linguistic, and military influence. (...)

Tomenable
12-16-2015, 04:13 PM
Roman Colonies after Trajan emperor (Trajan was born in a colony of Italica in Hispania):

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3f/Romancoloniae.jpg