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Cascio
06-02-2015, 02:06 PM
I am of Tuscan Italian extraction but I have 5.7pc Iberian on Speculative Mode and 1.5pc even in Conservative Mode. Does this indicate a Spanish or Portuguese ancestor within the last few centuries?

vettor
06-02-2015, 08:10 PM
I am of Tuscan Italian extraction but I have 5.7pc Iberian on Speculative Mode and 1.5pc even in Conservative Mode. Does this indicate a Spanish or Portuguese ancestor within the last few centuries?

I am similar to you , except have 5.3%
23andme told me ( about 18 months ago ) that it represents Spain from Valencia to the French border including the Spanish islands in the med.

before my sons phasing , I had only 3.1% of Iberian ..............so I really do not know how phasing changed this percentage

Cascio
06-02-2015, 09:02 PM
Why only Valencia to the French border plus Balearics?

Do they mean "Catalan" in the widest sense?

Christina
06-03-2015, 02:51 AM
Couldn't it also just mean some of the residual DNA from the ancient peoples of Italy, Iberia, and Sardinia, who were related?

Please see the current thread under YDNA I2.

Kopfjäger
06-03-2015, 03:02 AM
I am of Tuscan Italian extraction but I have 5.7pc Iberian on Speculative Mode and 1.5pc even in Conservative Mode. Does this indicate a Spanish or Portuguese ancestor within the last few centuries?

Hi Cascio,

I also show a nominal Iberian signature with 23andMe, although my Italian lineage is from Naples, Avellino, and possibly Sicily. I know the Aragonese were in Southern Italy, and wonder if this presence had any impact on affinities between Italians and Spaniards. Also, like Christina said, it could be a more ancient connection that was present throughout the Western Mediterranean.

I'd much prefer the former hypothesis, since I love tapas.

vettor
06-03-2015, 06:22 AM
Why only Valencia to the French border plus Balearics?

Do they mean "Catalan" in the widest sense?

maybe, although Sardinia, Naples ( southern Italy )and Siciliy was once owned by the Argonese/Catalans for a very very long time............I have no idea when the Castilians ever went to Italy , if they ever did, but Fernando was a Catalan and he was King of Spain at the time of Christopher Columbus

Cascio
06-03-2015, 06:28 AM
What region of ltaly are you from, Vettor?

vettor
06-03-2015, 06:30 AM
What region of ltaly are you from, Vettor?

Veneto, Trevisan

Cascio
06-03-2015, 07:14 AM
Couldn't it also just mean some of the residual DNA from the ancient peoples of Italy, Iberia, and Sardinia, who were related?

Please see the current thread under YDNA I2.

You may be correct, but does 23andme not claim that their AC shows more recent mixture (about 500 years ago)?

Cascio
06-03-2015, 07:16 AM
Veneto, Trevisan

I don't know of any historic Spanish connection to Treviso so is the Iberian influence ancient in Northern Italy and Tuscany?

Cascio
06-03-2015, 07:16 AM
Hi Cascio,

I also show a nominal Iberian signature with 23andMe, although my Italian lineage is from Naples, Avellino, and possibly Sicily. I know the Aragonese were in Southern Italy, and wonder if this presence had any impact on affinities between Italians and Spaniards. Also, like Christina said, it could be a more ancient connection that was present throughout the Western Mediterranean.

I'd much prefer the former hypothesis, since I love tapas.

I love tapas too!

vettor
06-03-2015, 07:21 AM
I don't know of any historic Spanish connection to Treviso so is the Iberian influence ancient in Northern Italy and Tuscany?

Catalan is similar to Occitan which is similar to North-Italian.......the actual word for a drinking glass in catalan is identical to Venetian.


EDIT: if you are interested in this linguistic and migrational period of these people....search internet for troubadours or read

The Troubadours: An Introduction
By Simon Gaunt

Passa
06-03-2015, 09:38 AM
I am 3/4 Campanian and 1/4 Bergamasco. 1% in speculative mode, 0.4% in Conservative mode and 0.7% in Standard mode

ArmandoR1b
06-03-2015, 12:45 PM
I think that the Iberian in Italians is from further back than the past 500 years no matter what 23andme says. The Iberian component seems to be way too common in Italians for the past 500 years to be the time period when it entered the gene pool. It is much more likely from common ancestry. Otherwise, every single Italian with Iberian ancestry has to have at least one Iberian ancestor in the past 10 generations for it to be so common. Something else to take into consideration is that 23andme hasn't tested ancient remains of Italians from 1,000 to 2,000 years ago to tell us that the Iberian component found in Italians isn't found in the ancestors of Italians prior to 500 years ago. So how can 23andme make a definitive statement when they don't have the proof?

The Iberian component at 23andme shows up at it's highest percentage in Basques and especially the French Basque at around 99% which probably had less admixture from other groups that made their way into the peninsula. The Iberian still shows up at a very high percentage even in southern Iberians, up to 80%, so it isn't specifically a Basque component, it's something older and more widespread.

When a person has higher than 20% Iberian they part Iberian or Latin American. When a person has >50% or more Iberian they are Iberian or Latin American with low amounts of Native American and West African admixture.

Cascio
06-03-2015, 01:08 PM
@ArmandoR1b

I think you must be right because many Italians, especially northern, seem to have 5pc or more Iberian.

An Iberian ancestor or ancestors cannot account for all of these cases, surely.

ArmandoR1b
06-03-2015, 01:12 PM
By the way, people from Aragón and Cataluña normally get around 60% Iberian so they aren't that much different from other Iberians.

Dauv
06-03-2015, 01:19 PM
I am of Tuscan Italian extraction but I have 5.7pc Iberian on Speculative Mode and 1.5pc even in Conservative Mode. Does this indicate a Spanish or Portuguese ancestor within the last few centuries?

Many northern Italians have some Iberian component (from 3/4% to 6/7%), I don't think it indicates Spanish or Portuguese ancestor within the last few centuries.

Where in Tuscany did your ancestors come from?

Cascio
06-03-2015, 01:24 PM
From the province of Lucca.

My 23andme Global Similarity Map shows me as a Tuscan outlier but also as an Austrian outlier, but towards Italy.
South European but close to some North European outliers.

I seem to be completely north and east of the North Italian (Bergamo) sample and east of both Italian and most Tuscan samples.

jeanL
06-03-2015, 01:31 PM
The Iberian component at 23andme shows up at it's highest percentage in Basques and especially the French Basque at around 99% which probably had less admixture from other groups that made their way into the peninsula. The Iberian still shows up at a very high percentage even in southern Iberians, up to 80%, so it isn't specifically a Basque component, it's something older and more widespread.

When a person has higher than 20% Iberian they part Iberian or Latin American. When a person has >50% or more Iberian they are Iberian or Latin American with low amounts of Native American and West African admixture.

Cubans of European ancestry or predominantly European ancestry tend to score between 40-70% Iberian on 23andme from what I have seen, Canary Islanders also score in that range.

http://z5.ifrm.com/30470/13/0/p1194477/23andMe_Averages.jpg

http://z5.ifrm.com/30470/13/0/p1194480/23andme_Iberian.jpg

I took those figures from this page:

http://w11.zetaboards.com/CubaDNAWeb/topic/10308929/1/

Also notice the minor Italian component.

PS: My Paternal Grandmother who is 7/16 Canary Islander(Confirmed genealogically) with some minor(5% has not been confirmed genealogically yet) Amerindian gets 48.7% Iberian and 9.7% Italian on 23andme. (No known Italian ancestry, at least not at the Great Great Grandparent level)

My mother gets 53.7% Iberian and 7.2% Italian on 23andme. (Though she likely has direct Italian ancestry, surnames Ferro and Corsican surname Corzo)

The Iberians(Peninsular) that I am sharing with seem to get between 2-6% Italian, though 2/4 are not purely Spanish, one is 1/4 British+3/4 Catalan the other 1/4 German+3/4 Portuguese. Canary Islanders also get the same amount 2-6%.

Dauv
06-03-2015, 01:43 PM
From the province of Lucca.

My 23andme Global Similarity Map shows me as a Tuscan outlier but also as an Austrian outlier.
South European but close to some North European outliers.

I seem to be completely north and east of the North Italian (Bergamo) sample and east of both Italian and most Tuscan samples.

Molazzana in Garfagnana? I don't think it's so strange that some Tuscan is north and east of the North Italian (Bergamo). I have a Tuscan friend that has a strong Baltic component more than average Tuscans.

Cascio
06-03-2015, 02:06 PM
Ultimately Cascio (Molazzana) and then Vallico-both Sotto and Sopra-(not to be confused with Vagli) on the paternal side and Borgo a Mozzano maternally.

ArmandoR1b
06-03-2015, 02:38 PM
Cubans of European ancestry or predominantly European ancestry tend to score between 40-70% Iberian on 23andme from what I have seen, Canary Islanders also score in that range.

Even though the 40% is a little low there will always be outliers. There is a significant amount of ancestry from the Iberian peninsula in Canary Islands. I share autosomal DNA with a person at 23andme who is Cuban who I also share ancestors with through documentation as a 5th cousin. The common ancestor is from the Basque Country. The other person's line went to Canary Islands and then to Cuba. The amount of R1b-M269 in the Canary Islands is very high and every time I hear of a R1b-M269 person whose lineage is purportedly from Canary Islands that gets SNP testing ends up being DF27 which we know is very high in the Iberian peninsula. So the R1b-DF27 and the 23andme Iberian autosomal component are in agreement when it comes to Canary Islanders.


PS: My Paternal Grandmother who is 7/16 Canary Islander(Confirmed genealogically) with some minor(5% has not been confirmed genealogically yet) Amerindian gets 48.7% Iberian and 9.7% Italian on 23andme. (No known Italian ancestry, at least not at the Great Great Grandparent level)

My mother gets 53.7% Iberian and 7.2% Italian on 23andme. (Though she likely has direct Italian ancestry, surnames Ferro and Corsican surname Corzo)

The Iberians(Peninsular) that I am sharing with seem to get between 2-6% Italian, though 2/4 are not purely Spanish, one is 1/4 British+3/4 Catalan the other 1/4 German+3/4 Portuguese. Canary Islanders also get the same amount 2-6%.

I have seen Spaniards with 6.9% Italian that don't have any known Italian ancestry. The average is probably about 3%. That leaves me with the same conclusion - the shared ancestry between Iberians and Italians is from further back than 500 years ago.

R.Rocca
06-03-2015, 05:39 PM
As you guys know, I am 5/8 Italian and 3/8 Spaniard. However, 23andMe (speculative) seems to overstate Iberian and understate Italian, unless a lot of my "Broadly Southern European" is Italian...

European = 98.8%
Italian = 37.4%
Iberian = 31.8%
Sardinian = 0.2%
Broadly Southern European = 22.1%
British & Irish = 0.1%
Broadly Northern European = 1.5%
Broadly European = 5.7%
North African = 0.7%
Broadly Middle Eastern & North African = 0.3%
East Asian & Native American = 0.1%
Native American = 0.1%
Unassigned = < 0.1%

ArmandoR1b
06-03-2015, 06:13 PM
As you guys know, I am 5/8 Italian and 3/8 Spaniard. However, 23andMe (speculative) seems to overstate Iberian and understate Italian, unless a lot of my "Broadly Southern European" is Italian...

European = 98.8%
Italian = 37.4%
Iberian = 31.8%
Sardinian = 0.2%
Broadly Southern European = 22.1%
British & Irish = 0.1%
Broadly Northern European = 1.5%
Broadly European = 5.7%
North African = 0.7%
Broadly Middle Eastern & North African = 0.3%
East Asian & Native American = 0.1%
Native American = 0.1%
Unassigned = < 0.1%

Your Iberian matches Spaniards that are about 84.8% Iberian since 3/8 of 84.8% = 31.8%. How much Italian do people with all ancestors from both sides being from Italy?

Cascio
06-03-2015, 06:18 PM
Good to hear from you again, Richard.

Maybe the Iberian element is quite widespread in small amounts in Western Europe as far east as Northern Italy.

I read somewhere that Broadly South European may very well apply to the Italian element as well as any other in Southern Europe so, at a stretch, 37.4pc+22.1 pc Broadly SE gives you an (arguable) 59.5pc Italian.

vettor
06-03-2015, 06:18 PM
From the province of Lucca.

My 23andme Global Similarity Map shows me as a Tuscan outlier but also as an Austrian outlier, but towards Italy.
South European but close to some North European outliers.

I seem to be completely north and east of the North Italian (Bergamo) sample and east of both Italian and most Tuscan samples.

Lucca is a nice town, I visited my auntie there a few years ago

Below is my sons phasing from 23andme ( you can see the split of what iberian brings into northern italians as mother and myself are northerns ( Veneti, Trevisani ))
note: 23andme has only 12 samples of northern Italians

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/vicpret/split%20view_zpsv1jit5rk.jpg (http://s103.photobucket.com/user/vicpret/media/split%20view_zpsv1jit5rk.jpg.html)

But the mother does have at least one Iberian in her family tree - a Galician ( portuguese woman )
I have found none in my family line.

Cascio
06-03-2015, 06:20 PM
Your Iberian matches Spaniards that are about 84.8% Iberian since 3/8 of 84.8% = 31.8%. How much Italian do people with all ancestors from both sides being from Italy?

My parents are both from North-west Tuscany and I have 56.6pc Italian and 5.7pc Iberian in Speculative Mode.

R.Rocca
06-03-2015, 06:36 PM
My parents are both from North-west Tuscany and I have 56.6pc Italian and 5.7pc Iberian in Speculative Mode.

Thank you Cascio...so since a 100% Italian person only gets 56.6% Italian, the Italian component must definitely be getting lumped into something else. What is your "Broadly Southern European" percentage?

Cascio
06-03-2015, 06:55 PM
My Broadly South European is 19.2pc Speculative, a little less than yours, as is my 4.4pc Broadly European.

Cascio
06-03-2015, 09:28 PM
On a 23andme forum a poster called M.A.B. from Liguria wrote that the north-west Italians she shares with have 3-5pc Iberian and she has even more than this.
Iberian tapers off towards Tuscany and seems to be frequently replaced by Balkan in the Veneto.
She considers Iberian to be ancient because it is so common in NW Italy.

jeanL
06-04-2015, 02:04 PM
There seems to be some sort of similarity between the Iberian and Italian components, it also seems that 23andme estimates improve greatly whenever you test one of your parents, a lot of the broadly categories become something, for example both my dad and I are 70%+ Iberian on 23andme, and if I recall correctly our broadly Southern European is ~7% and ~10% respectively compared to the ~19% my mother and paternal grandmother(dad's mother) get, on the other hand my Italian is 3.7%, whereas my Dad gets 8.3% Italian, but he has known Italian ancestry though distant on his father side. Most(5.6% according to split view) of his Italian ancestry is coming from his mother side though, one of my grandmother's X chromosome and my Dad X chromosome(which is from her) is fully Italian, so there was somebody on the X chromosome tree that was fully Italian, and probably fairly recent because it hasn't undergone recombination. In my case it says I get 3.3% of my Italian ancestry from my mom, and only 0.3% from my dad, makes sense since I don't get the X chromosome from my dad, and that's were most of his ancestry is.

On the other hand Ancestry DNA analysis gives me as much Italian as it gives me Iberian, they differ by 1%, I also get 9% Great Britain(Which is listed as a main region, not a trace region) which I'm guessing it must be acting as proxy for something else. My gf older brother also got some ~40% Iberian, 24% Italian, 8% Ireland and 6% Scandinavian, all main regions, he has no known Scandinavian ancestry, the Irish might be real, my gf shows 3.0%+ British and Irish on 23andme and her X chromosome is fully British and Irish, this is coming from her Dad's side of the family, though they are of Galician(Paternal lineage)/Castilian/Catalan/Canary Islander extraction genealogically. So it seems a lot of these algorithm have a hard time distinguishing Iberian from Italian, and this is to be expected.

I think the Italian in 23andme is more centered around Southern Italy, whereas on Ancestry it might be more general, because Southern Italians get a somewhat sizable amount of West Asian on ancestry when they take the test, though I am aware that many Sicilians and Southern Italians also get Near Eastern on 23andme.

sweuro
06-04-2015, 04:49 PM
Old news. North-Italians share some genetic similarity with Iberians. (on PCAs they plot south of Iberians). So it's not strange they can score around 5% on 23andMe. But it's not real iberian ancestry.

vettor
06-04-2015, 06:02 PM
The southern or northern European in 23andme should be ignored, they classify southern France as northern Europe and classified north-italian as southern Europe, yet north-Italy in latitute sits on the same level of central france and higher on the european map than southern france.

these terms, are used because they ( 23andme) have no reference to anybody in general.


on another issue
-Greek represents - Greece , albania and southern (toe and heal south ) italy and sicily
-italian represent the remainder of South italy plus central italy and north italy
-swiss and austrians are represents as french and germans
- balkans represent romania, bulgaria, macedonia, serbia, croatia, slovenia and bosnia

this system is the same as NAtgeno2 use

Nino90
05-15-2018, 10:34 AM
My Italian ancestry nearly always shows up as Iberian/French or basque.

JerryS.
05-17-2018, 06:06 PM
I am mixed regions like you are primarily Northwestern Europe my Italian comes from the south and I'm most calculators it shows up as Southern Italian Sicilian or Greek, if using the regular Oracle mixed mode to population groups. Using Oracle four it depends on the calculating model on what will show up sometimes it shows up as Tuscan as if the southern Italians being drifted North sometimes it will show up as any of the Balkan states... I think clearly but if you are mostly North or Northwestern European and you want to see what your Mediterranean ethnicity region or percentage is you need to pick a calculator that is able to accurately pinpoint the contributing regions to Southern Italy such as North Africa or the Levant. That's something that eurogenes is not very good at which is why it had to have a separate model to try to accurately represent Jewish heritage and that's because of the Middle Eastern Source or origination.

Sizzles
05-18-2018, 05:22 PM
There seems to be some sort of similarity between the Iberian and Italian components, it also seems that 23andme estimates improve greatly whenever you test one of your parents, a lot of the broadly categories become something, for example both my dad and I are 70%+ Iberian on 23andme, and if I recall correctly our broadly Southern European is ~7% and ~10% respectively compared to the ~19% my mother and paternal grandmother(dad's mother) get, on the other hand my Italian is 3.7%, whereas my Dad gets 8.3% Italian, but he has known Italian ancestry though distant on his father side. Most(5.6% according to split view) of his Italian ancestry is coming from his mother side though, one of my grandmother's X chromosome and my Dad X chromosome(which is from her) is fully Italian, so there was somebody on the X chromosome tree that was fully Italian, and probably fairly recent because it hasn't undergone recombination. In my case it says I get 3.3% of my Italian ancestry from my mom, and only 0.3% from my dad, makes sense since I don't get the X chromosome from my dad, and that's were most of his ancestry is.

On the other hand Ancestry DNA analysis gives me as much Italian as it gives me Iberian, they differ by 1%, I also get 9% Great Britain(Which is listed as a main region, not a trace region) which I'm guessing it must be acting as proxy for something else. My gf older brother also got some ~40% Iberian, 24% Italian, 8% Ireland and 6% Scandinavian, all main regions, he has no known Scandinavian ancestry, the Irish might be real, my gf shows 3.0%+ British and Irish on 23andme and her X chromosome is fully British and Irish, this is coming from her Dad's side of the family, though they are of Galician(Paternal lineage)/Castilian/Catalan/Canary Islander extraction genealogically. So it seems a lot of these algorithm have a hard time distinguishing Iberian from Italian, and this is to be expected.

I think the Italian in 23andme is more centered around Southern Italy, whereas on Ancestry it might be more general, because Southern Italians get a somewhat sizable amount of West Asian on ancestry when they take the test, though I am aware that many Sicilians and Southern Italians also get Near Eastern on 23andme.

My ancestry results
36% southern euro
Sicily
26% east euro
North Italy Croatia Bosnia herzivenia
24% great britain
5% Ireland Scotland Wales
4% caucasus
2% middle east
1% North African
1% Scandinavian
1% west euro

On gedmatch k36 Iberian and French shows up. Like Jerry s my Italian also shows up Sicilian and Greek. Tuscan shows up alot too. I do have Sicilian grandfather.