PDA

View Full Version : New Z251 subclade under Z16943



cairn
06-02-2015, 11:29 PM
Alex Williamson and Mike W identified a potential new subclade under Z16943 last week. Two kits had mutations at 6138777-C-T and 15880567-T-C. I just received an email from Thomas Krahn letting me know that they were able to design primers for 15880567-T-C which he assigned A6078. This SNP can be ordered now through YSEQ (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=11765), though I imagine it will take a little while for the primers to come in.

cairn
07-06-2015, 04:06 AM
I received my results for A6078 on Friday: I am ancestral for this SNP, so I remain Z16943*. It looks like the next step for me is NGS, though I don't think any of the other Z16943* guys have BigY or FGC results, so I think I'm likely to have this designation for a while.

EDIT: I forgot that there are two Z16943* BigY kits on Alex Williamson's "Big Tree" (www.ytree.net), so I may share downstream SNPs with them if a I get a NGS test.

Huntergatherer1066
07-06-2015, 11:01 PM
I believe one of my friends whose kit I manage will fall into this subclade. He is a 36/37 match with the Burgin kit from Williamson's tree who is A6078, and Burgin matches several people with my friends surname at the 67 marker level. My friend is being tested for Z251 at FTDNA as we speak; if he's positive then eventually we'll do Z16943 and maybe by then A6078 will be available at FTDNA or even a Z251 SNP pack.

cairn
07-06-2015, 11:58 PM
Thank you Huntergatherer1066 for pursuing additional testing for this kit. I hope you'll encourage your friend to join the Z251 project if he tests positive for that. I'm curious if your friend's surname might have French or Norman origins? Both the Burgin and Reams surnames seem to have French origins, and it would be very interesting if this subclade begins to reveal a distinct geographic association.

kenmunn
07-07-2015, 12:51 AM
I believe one of my friends whose kit I manage will fall into this subclade. He is a 36/37 match with the Burgin kit from Williamson's tree who is A6078, and Burgin matches several people with my friends surname at the 67 marker level. My friend is being tested for Z251 at FTDNA as we speak; if he's positive then eventually we'll do Z16943 and maybe by then A6078 will be available at FTDNA or even a Z251 SNP pack.

There is already a Z251 SNP panel available from Y SEQ if he is interested and likes fast, reliable service at lower cost.

Huntergatherer1066
07-07-2015, 01:30 AM
Thank you Huntergatherer1066 for pursuing additional testing for this kit. I hope you'll encourage your friend to join the Z251 project if he tests positive for that. I'm curious if your friend's surname might have French or Norman origins? Both the Burgin and Reams surnames seem to have French origins, and it would be very interesting if this subclade begins to reveal a distinct geographic association.

The surname is Dodge, which seems to have multiple possible origins; possible sources include Roger/Hrothgar though. Aside from Burgin, almost all of his matches are other Dodges descended from a Tristram Dodge who settled on Block Island Rhode Island in the 1600s. According to the Dodge Family Association website where Tristram came from is as of yet unknown but he is thought to have been from northern England near the River Tweed. If the name is from Roger that could be Norman.

cairn
07-08-2015, 04:47 PM
I just saw this morning that Alex Williamson's Big Tree has been updated with a new sub-Z16943 sample: Hardage (203309). Hardage shares several mutations with Desmond (N98521) who was Z16943*. Hardage and Desmond now form a new subclade under Z16943 which is parallel to A6078 (discovered in June as mentioned in the first post of this thread).

It is exciting to see so much discovery happening under Z251. I am grateful to the men who have pursued Big Y or FGC testing to reveal these subclades and also to Alex Williamson for coordinating and analyzing all this data to make these discoveries.

cairn
07-08-2015, 04:56 PM
I noticed that Desmond, Hardage, Burgin and Holmes (all Z16943+) don't appear to be members of the Z251+ Project at Family Tree DNA. If anyone has a way to contact the owners of these kits, I'd like to encourage them to join the project. It would be helpful to be able to compare their STR results with those of the other project members to help them determine SNP testing to pursue.

seferhabahir
07-10-2015, 03:01 PM
I noticed that Desmond, Hardage, Burgin and Holmes (all Z16943+) don't appear to be members of the Z251+ Project at Family Tree DNA. If anyone has a way to contact the owners of these kits, I'd like to encourage them to join the project. It would be helpful to be able to compare their STR results with those of the other project members to help them determine SNP testing to pursue.

All four of these kits can be found in the larger L21 project and their STR values can be seen there. Administrators of the L21 project would have access to their email addresses and could contact to them with a request to consider joining the Z251 and Subclades Project.

seferhabahir
07-10-2015, 03:19 PM
I remain convinced that the three major subclades of Z251 (Z16943, S11556, FC13899) are all quite old and may be part of the far-flung Bell Beaker spread all across Europe, so I agree that comparing STR values can help pin down some ages for possible groups under those three major subclades. This certainly works in my own cluster which we were able to identify as being distinct long before anyone knew about any of the SNPs below L21. The so-called Baltic Cluster was easily identifiable from STRs alone for years and it took a very long time to find a SNP that represented it (we now have one in A555, which seems to date from about 750-1000 years ago, when the European Ashkenazi population experienced a severe bottleneck and numbered only a few thousand families). The big mystery for me remains what was going in the three thousand years or so between FGC11986 and A555 which is such a large period of time that it remains almost impossible to figure it out.

Huntergatherer1066
07-16-2015, 02:36 PM
Well that was fast. My friend came came back Z251+ as expected. So I had him join the Z251 project (and also the R1b and L21 projects). Kit number is 343239.

Huntergatherer1066
07-31-2015, 12:21 AM
I noticed that Desmond, Hardage, Burgin and Holmes (all Z16943+) don't appear to be members of the Z251+ Project at Family Tree DNA. If anyone has a way to contact the owners of these kits, I'd like to encourage them to join the project. It would be helpful to be able to compare their STR results with those of the other project members to help them determine SNP testing to pursue.

I've emailed inviting Burgin as well as another Dodge who is in the L21 project and based on their SNP results appears to have done BigY to join the Z251 project. The other Dodge shares a relatively recent direct paternal ancestor with my Dodge friend whose kit I manage (343239) and is a 36/37 marker match so I am guessing DF13 and Z251 were no calls unfortunately. He will surely also be Z16943+, A6077+, and A6078+ in the novel variants based on the close match with Burgin. Keep an eye out for them, hopefully they'll both join.

dt4067
10-26-2015, 12:52 AM
I too am Z16943* (tested at YSEQ). My recent DNA comes from Cornwall but I have long thought we descend from the Beaker culture so seferhabahir I support your premise. These were a sea-going trading people and went to Cornwall and Ireland to get tin to use in the making of bronze. I am not sure if our family descends from ancestors left behind from those ancient travels or is a more recent migration from northern France. Comparing the STR pattern of my male relatives indicates a more recent settlement in Cornwall or perhaps that is an artifact due to adopting surnames late in development. The http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/ site gives the major subclades of Z251 (Z16943, S11556, FC13899) appearing 4300 ybp so are well within that Beaker culture timespan

cairn
10-26-2015, 09:28 PM
Thank you dt4067 for your post. I've been hoping that we might find a Z251+ sample with roots in Cornwall. I agree that our ancestors probably were a part of the Bell-Beaker culture, but I think that is true for all of L21 and it's descendants. I'm very interested in narrowing down the origins of Z251 and it's subclades: what makes Z251 different from, for example, Z253 or L1335?

I don't think we have enough evidence yet to narrow down our haplogroup's origins; we need more Z251+ people and I'm pleased that we are starting to see this happen with the new SNP packs from Family Tree DNA. However, the lack of data hasn't kept me from speculating.

I recently came across 'Gallici Nautae de Galliarum Provinciis' A Sixth/Seventh Century Trade with Gaul, Reconsidered (Thomas, C. 1990) (http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-769-1/dissemination/pdf/vol34/34_001_026.pdf) and I am intrigued by Thomas' conclusions based on the distribution of Class E ware of Gaulish origin. Looking at Figure 7, the distribution of Class E ware is not unlike the distribution we see among Z251 surnames: pockets of us turn up in Scotland (particularly in the south west), Wales, and Ireland. I don't have a good sense of where in England the Z251 families come from. The number of continental families turning up positive for Z251 is also intriguing and it mirrors the continental origins of Class E ware. Perhaps the 6th and 7th century trade routes proposed by Thomas have something to do with the distribution of Z251 and its subclades.

The YFull estimates seem to contradict a 6th-7th century expansion or distribution of Z251, but similar associations have been made for other L21 subclades (for example, L1335 has been proposed to be a Pictish marker. YFull gives a formation date of 4300ybp for L1335, but the Picts were a people described from the 4th to 10th centuries).

I'm pleased, dt4067, to see your Z251 results with a Cornish origin since that lines up well with the Class E ware distribution.

dt4067
10-27-2015, 01:26 AM
Hi Cairn Many of our Cornish people went to Brittany in France (late 4th C) to escape the Anglo-Saxon invasion of Cornwall and yet others would have moved to Ireland and Scotland to do the same. After all they had related families there to shelter them. If you have a look at R1b-L21 in Brittany it tells the story. A trade in the 6-7th centuries is confirmation that the network was still strong. I must have a read of the Thomas book.
I have just organised for a test at YSEQ of a sample from the USA that should match ours. Still markers to find and I hope that will help

danieldgray
11-04-2015, 08:38 AM
Cornwall has had historic ties to the Viking Danes. I suspect the Z251 presence in Cornwall may have originated from the presence of the Danish Vikings in Cornwall. Z251 seems to be very closely associated with Viking settlements. I suspect the Danish Vikinngs are the most likely source. This would also explain the presence of Z251 in recent samples in Southern Sweden. The Danes occupied the Southern portion of the Jutland peninsula.

cairn
11-04-2015, 10:19 PM
This would also explain the presence of Z251 in recent samples in Southern Sweden.

Interesting! I hadn't seen any Z251 results in Sweden, so I popped over to the FTDNA Z-251 Group and discovered that there are are a number of new members with continental origins (including Sweden). I hope that some of these new members will choose to pursue a deep-clade test or, better yet, a Big Y for FGC test. The large STR genetic distances in several of the Z251 subclades suggest a number of new SNPs and subclades that have yet to be discovered.

If others (or this forum and elsewhere) are correct that L21 is a Celtic marker, then it would be curious to find Z251 among the Viking Danes. Perhaps they were captured slaves? But then, whose to say that, for example, the grandson of a Celtic slave among the Danes is any less a Dane than his cousins with a Danish paternal grandfather.

Likewise, it's highly likely that at least some of the Z251 ancestors came to England, Scotland and Wales as part of the Norman conquest - whether or not those ancestors were considered "Norman" themselves is up for debate.

dt4067, you're right, that trade network existed for centuries, so there's no telling at what point our Z251 ancestors might have settled (or resettled) in the Isles. I recently read Barry Cunliff's Britain Begins and he also presented a lot of evidence for a Brittany/Celtic Sea/Irish Sea trade network, though his focus was not as late as in Charles Thomas' paper above. I'm hopeful that future genetic testing of ancient remains will help solve some of our riddle. Thanks for your part in finding more participants to test!

dt4067
11-05-2015, 01:20 PM
Hi Cairn It is interesting that you mention slaves. Julius Caesar does not give numbers of Celtic slaves in his "Commentarii de bello Gallico" yet he became very rich from their sale. An obvious reason for no mention is that he would have had to share the proceeds with the treasury back in Rome. Westermann’s estimate of 150000 slaves from the Gallic Wars is reasonable. Some were given to his legionaries as booty, some would have made it to Rome but most remained the property of Caesar and were sold to slave traders. I imagine that in Caesar's time many of the vessels leaving the North Atlantic coast of France would have been slave ships. The Celts themselves had their own slave system, we know of slavery in Ireland and one in five people in Scandinavia were thralls. There is lots of scope for the spread of Celtic DNA in that first century BC alone.

cairn
11-06-2015, 12:41 AM
There is lots of scope for the spread of Celtic DNA in that first century BC alone.

And that's what makes it so hard to pin down the origins of Z251, let alone it's "brother clades" under DF13. I think you are absolutely right that the Roman slave trade sent many Celts far and wide, not to mention his and later emperors stationing of Celtic auxiliaries across the empire. However, I think there's an interesting phenomenon in Z251 where we find participants spread fairly broadly on the continent as well as in the Isles. Particularly interesting are the men with insular ancestry and surnames indicating a continental origin. That leads me to think that there must, for at least some families in Z251, have been a movement of people around the time of surname formation; lets say 800 - 1400. Viking raids and resettlement were certainly prominent in this time period, and their capture and selling of slaves may very well have contributed to the spread of Z251. Commerce certainly happened in this time period, and I'm sure that at least some of the sailor merchants were Z251. The Norman Conquest also brought an influx of continental folk (Normans as well as Bretons) to the isles and I wouldn't be surprised to find Z251 among the invaders.

Any of these, and perhaps all of them, are things that might have spread our Z251 ancestors around. I don't think we'll be able to make the picture much more clear without DNA results from ancient remains. I hope that more europeans pursue DNA testing as well - it would be very interesting to see where on the continent Z251 still shows up.

danieldgray
11-06-2015, 01:03 AM
In trying to reconcile the broader distribution of L21 tied to Celtics with the distribution of z251 that alligns with Viking settlements. I wonder whether z251 is tied to a more Northern area occupied by the Gauls. Perhaps z251 is tied to Cimbri Jutland. The Cimbris were said to be an off-shoot of the Celtic tribe located on the Jutland peninsula. When looking at a map of where Cimbris were said to have moved, it includes some of the areas where z251 has appeared. Also, there are some articles noting some correlation with language in Wales. I am not sure if there is any dna testing for Cimbri, but it seems like a possible explanation. Alternatively, perhaps another Norther area of Gaul such as Belgica may have been the source.

dt4067
11-06-2015, 10:59 AM
Hi Daniel The Cimbri pushed right up and into modern Finland so could be a clue in Jutland. I am inclined to think that the spread indicates a sea-going people. The Belgae people are an obvious choice. They spread from Armorica (Brittany) right across the coast of Gaul to the Rhine river. Caesar sold more than 50000 into slavery. There were a few groups of them who settled in England. The Belgic Ambiani fought against Caesar but were also in England and many of their coins have been found in southern England. More than likely Belgic tribes settled in Ireland too particularly in present day Ulster and Munster.
The Veneti were a Celtic sea-going people from Armorica. They could be allied to the Belgae but in 56 BC Caesar sold many of that Veneti tribe into slavery.
I note that the Z16943 SNP dates from around 4300 years ago so no doubt they were sailing the seas and spreading DNA long before Caesar's time. My guess is that the R1b-L21 represents a population of "Beaker Folk" trading wares and selling slaves in the North Sea and Celtic Sea area. These Beaker Folk occupied the lands on the North Atlantic and possibly evolved into the Belgae. Time to our most recent ancestor is around 3900 years ago according to http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1b/
I have checked TtMRCA between Cairn and I and have 3300 years. There is always a big error in these calculations but it confirms the timeframe.

cairn
11-06-2015, 06:56 PM
I like the idea of Z251 being associated with Belgic Gauls. The historic movements of the various Belgic tribes does fit the modern distribution of Z251 fairly well, and, as dt4067 points out, the TMRCA for Z251 and it's immediate subclades points to a very ancient origin. I wonder if it might be possible to find a correlation between the three main branches of Z251 (Z16943, S11556 and FGC13899) and any specific Belgic tribe?

FGC13899 seems to have a strong presence in Wales unlike Z16943 and S11556.

I think that Z16943 seems to be spread more along both sides the Irish Sea and Celtic Sea as well as on the continent, though I'm not sure that's a fair generalization at this point.

I'm really not sure what the distribution of S11556 might look like. At a glance, I see samples from all over the Isles (though not in Wales), as well as the A555 subclade with ancestry in eastern Europe.

dt4067
11-07-2015, 12:49 AM
Hi Daniel and Cairn Let us hope that Beaker Folk DNA undergoes deeper testing now that the technology is available. Remains of these sea-going folk have been found from Jutland, all along the coast of the Celtic and North Seas including in Brittany, Cornwall, Ireland and Wales. The other interesting thing about them is that they took horses with them. I know nothing about horses but realise they will have DNA too. Loads of decorated equine phalanx bones were carried with the Beaker people. Intriguing if a cross correlation could be done between "Beaker" and horse DNA. That may go a long way to finding the origins of Z16943, S11556 and FGC13899. Off to find more about ancient horse DNA

danieldgray
11-08-2015, 04:22 PM
In response to the question regarding the location of s11556 I thought I would copy the post that I just made to the z251 forum at ftdna in which I capture the location of the current s11556 samples and provide information related to the discussion we have been having in this forum. The following is the post: I suspect that the dispersion of S11556 is tied to Viking (likely Danish Viking) DNA. I believe that this theory continues to gain momentum as more samples test positive for Z251 and because of the locations where s11556 is found and the history of the associated surnames tied to s11556. From this forum, as well as ytree.net, the distribution of S11556 currently includes the following locations: England (Lewis, Rickwood, Churchman), Cornwall (Millet), Ireland (Hopkins, Jack), Scotland (McCall, Brock, McDonald, Crawford), Russia (Pegalis), Poland (Bloom), Latvia (Kabo), Lithuania (Prago), and Belaruse (Yurditzky, Burde). Other names include Dew (presumably Scotish), Herrington (presumably England), and Gray (Netherlands, per family legend, but no docs yet to confirm). According to most surname databases, the origin of a number of these surnames names are historically tied to Normandy France (Gray, Lewis, Rickwood, Churchman, Millet, Brock). The Vikings who settled Normandy France are said to have been Danish Vikings. The Grays of England trace directly back to Rollo the "Dane" Duke of Normandy. In Scotland, the Clan McDonald originated from Somerled who is said to have been from a Norse-Gaelic (a/k/a Hiberno-Norse/Irish Norse/Foreign Gaels) family. The Norse-Gaels expansion through England and Ireland trace back to the Hebrides (Innse Gall-Islands of Foreigners). A number of the samples tie directly back to Caithness Scotland (Brock, McCall) which, along with Orkney and Shetland, was an outpost for Vikings. In Ireland, the Vikings were broken into two groups, the Finn-Gaill (the Norwegian Vikings) and Dubh-Gaill (the Danish Vikings). The word Dew in Gaelic is "Dubh" possibly indicating that the surname Dew is of Danish Viking descent. While it is very possible that the samples from Russia, Poland, and the Baltics may have been in those areas prior to the Viking Age, it is also possible that the samples in these areas are tied to Viking incursions. The Varangians were Vikings that ruled the state of Rus and formed the Byzantine Varangian Guard. The Varangians went south from Scandanavia through the Baltic Sea into the various river systems that lead into the Baltics and Russia, to include the Volga trade routes. In 860 a Swedish Viking tribe migrated south into what is now Kieve, Ukraine and founded the Rus Khaganate which then formed Kievan Rus. Interestingly, there are now two Z251 samples apparently originating from Sweden (Olofsson, Johnsson). The tie to Cornwall possibly comes from Normandy France or may relate to the Cornish historic alliance with Danish Vikings to defend against Anglo-Saxons. This may explain the Tresise sample of Cornwall that remains ungrouped. While Haplogroup I is prominent in Scandanavia, there is also a clear presence of R1b. Given that L21 is associated with Gaelic culture, the Northern presence of z251 suggests that Z251 is likely tied to a Northern Gaelic tribe. Among the possible candidates is the Cimbris, who occupied the Jutland Peninsula of Denmark. Helping to support the Cimbri theory is that the FGC13899 subset of z251 has a stong presence in Wales. The Cimbri are sometimes associated with the Welsh a/k/a the "Cymry." The Cimbri are also said to have moved into Belgic Gaul. The ungrouped samples includes at least one sample from Belgiam (Temmerman). Of course all of this is speculative. Hopefully, more people will test for Z251 and more samples that are currently in the ungrouped category will continue testing to be assigned or even test for the BigY.

dt4067
11-10-2015, 11:55 PM
Hi Daniel I like the Rollo link to the Gray family. There was an announcement that a DNA analysis from the remains of Rollo's grandson, Richard the Fearless, and his great-grandson, Richard the Good would be done but I haven't read any result. http://www.newsinenglish.no/2011/06/15/viking-is-forefather-to-british-royals/

Michael Maglio has published an interesting paper on this too http://originsdna.com/content/MRM-Rollo.pdf

danieldgray
11-11-2015, 12:24 AM
Very interesting. Too bad it looks like it never went forward. Would be great info for many people.

dt4067
11-13-2015, 01:52 PM
Hi Daniel and Cairn It is hard to line up the dates for Z251. Even though the allele popped up 4300 years ago and our most recent common ancestor is around that time too there is no guarantee that our ancestor moved to Ireland or Scotland then. My thoughts are that R-S11556 came to Denmark from Norway then at some stage back to Norway before moving to Scotland. The ancient DNA tells many stories. How Celtic DNA made it into Scandinavia will be an interesting search Best Dave

dt4067
11-13-2015, 02:28 PM
Haplogroup R1b is more prevalent in western and southern Norway, near the seacoast. Perhaps freed Celtic thralls or it could be L21 arriving in Scandinavia with the Bell Beaker folk in Bronze Age trade. There were Beaker settlements in South-West Norway.

dt4067
11-14-2015, 08:51 AM
Hi Daniel Watch this space for Richard I the Fearless, and Richard II the Good. Normandy DNA will be very interesting reading

cairn
11-20-2015, 06:06 PM
I'm immensely enjoying this speculation on the origins of Z251 and its subclades! Thank you David for this information on possible links to Rollo; those will certainly be some intriguing DNA results when they're available! Thank you too Daniel for your analysis. A Scandinavian link for Z251 is quite different than what I had been looking for, but I admit that you have found some interesting connections.

I was browsing YTree.net this morning, looking for updates to some relatives' haplogroups. While browsing the U152 branch, I noticed that there are some general similarities in the distribution of U152 and Z251 in that both are found broadly in the Isles and on the continent. A bit of searching found that the U152 folks, particularly David Faux, have also been looking to a Scandinavian origin for their haplogroup, possibly including the Cimbri: http://www.davidkfaux.org/Angles_England_R_U152.pdf

Perhaps both U152 and Z251 will both be found to be associated with the people in this region? In any case, the PDF linked above has a fairly in-depth analysis of the migrations of people from this area that may be helpful in finding a link with Z251.

dt4067
11-23-2015, 10:13 PM
Thanks Cairn A great article that will take some absorbing. Interesting that the Cimbri has popped up again. A tribe one million strong wandering around Europe trying to find a place to live, defeated by the Romans and just disappearing from written history must have gone somewhere. Remnants of those who didn't want to migrate were left in Jutland. Let us say for argument that 50% were killed in the battle with the Romans, that still leaves a large population to settle somewhere. Was it Ireland or Scotland or perhaps Wales or another country with no written history? Dave

danieldgray
12-08-2015, 06:11 AM
Cairn, I came across the article by Faux prior to seeing your message. I found it interesting. I actually started to reconsider my arguments and thought they may have as good of a claim to the Cimbri as the case that I have been making. They have a lot of German and Swiss in their group. Since there were a number of different Northern tribes many of which started to intermingle, the two different SNP groups may have lived in close proximity and eventually commingled subsequently sharing common histories for a number of years. I think unusual common patterns within s9294 may prove helpful. For example, I was curious on what Cornwall and Caithness may have in common. I looked at the history of the tribes in Cornwall and noted the Belgae tribe in Cornwall which apparently came from Belgae Gaul. I also came across the Cornovii which have a common name between Cornwall and Caithness. The Wattey line moved from Cornwall to Hamburg Germany which makes me wonder whether they had a prior connection in language or history causing the reverse migration. I also think the presence in the Jewish line within s9294 in the Balkans provides additional data points that could lead to a clue. It will be interesting to see where this goes as additional names and histories prove to be z251. For what it is worth, our line of Grays,which I traced back to Orange, NJ in the late 1700s, is supposed to have come from Holland, but then again, so did the Pilgrims.

cairn
12-08-2015, 08:11 AM
I also noticed the new kit with the surname "Albertyn" which showed up on Ytree.net last week under Z16943. The surname seems to be associated with South Africa, implying a Dutch origin (though that's just from a cursory Google search).

If the owner of the Albertyn kit happens to see this, please consider joining the Z-251 group at Family Tree DNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-z251/activity-feed)!

I'm pleased to see so many new results turning up positive for Z251 and its subclades; the broad geographic distribution of this haplogroup is fascinating!

dt4067
12-09-2015, 08:04 AM
"Albertyn" tested at FtDNA and is in the Cape Dutch project. Kit 208093. Many of my relatives went to South Africa as miners but Albertyn is not a Cornish surname. Best wishes Dave

danieldgray
12-12-2015, 08:20 PM
Albertyn is also a town in Slonim, Grodno, Belarus. I have found very little on the history of the Albertyn city name in Belarus. Perhaps there is a tie to the Baltic Jewish line of FGC11986.

seferhabahir
12-12-2015, 11:34 PM
Albertyn is also a town in Slonim, Grodno, Belarus. I have found very little on the history of the Albertyn city name in Belarus. Perhaps there is a tie to the Baltic Jewish line of FGC11986.

Just want to remind that YFull lists the age of S9294 at about 4000 years ago, so FGC11986 might be another 150 years later on, or 3850 years ago. If I recall correctly, I had about 27 SNPs that were in the combBED region below FGC11986 that are not found in non-Baltic Jewish testers. YFull is using something like 144.41 years per "corrected SNPs" so 27x144.41=3899.07. Jewish FGC11986 testers probably ended up in Belarus or other areas of the Pale as a result of eastward migration from France and Germany only in the last 600-700 years. I don't think the Baltic Cluster members should be treated as having an ancestor that lived in the Baltic area when SNPs like S11556 or S9294 or FGC11986 came about.

The most recent common ancestor to the people in the Baltic Cluster might have lived in France or Germany or Belarus or Lithuania or Ukraine, but the far flung ancient ancestor whose subsequent lineage developed 27 novel SNPs over time was probably far from there, maybe in a fringe area of Bell Beaker movement in southern Europe, perhaps Sardinia as I have described elsewhere. Until a non-Jewish Baltic Cluster person shows up with some (or even one) of those 27 SNPs under FGC11986, I continue to maintain a view that the Jewish Baltic Cluster might be the result of someone ending up in the Levant via a migration from a southern Europe or Mediterranean route, which is why there is such a large genetic separation (both SNPs and STR markers).

danieldgray
12-12-2015, 11:54 PM
Makes sense. I found the Albertyn place name in Belarus to be interesting, even if it is just coincidental. I wonder, to what extent, despite the mutation taking place many many years prior, whether the various groups continued to generally migrate together creating the opportunity for some shared history and surnames due to a common language, place names, etc.

dt4067
12-14-2015, 04:16 AM
6929
This is a map showing areas where Bell Beaker settlements have been found. Note they are not continuous and it is going to be almost impossible to locate the R-Z251 haplotype unless deep clade testing is done on bones found at a particular site.

danieldgray
12-15-2015, 12:44 PM
Assuming the Baltic Jewish migration took place approximately 600 years ago, is it not possible it came from the north? If so, the FGC11986 could be present in the Cimbri, Belgic Gauls, Suebe or some other Northern tribe. The dispersion of FGC11986 into the British Isles could then still be explained by Danish Viking expeditions and other earlier migrations (e.g. Belgic Gauls into Belgea Cornwall). I think it is also possible the Jewish line mutations may have taken place prior to a migration south into the Baltic's. Thoughts?

dt4067
12-15-2015, 02:21 PM
Assuming the Baltic Jewish migration took place approximately 600 years ago, is it not possible it came from the north? If so, the FGC11986 could be present in the Cimbri, Belgic Gauls, Suebe or some other Northern tribe. The dispersion of FGC11986 into the British Isles could then still be explained by Danish Viking expeditions and other earlier migrations (e.g. Belgic Gauls into Belgea Cornwall). I think it is also possible the Jewish line mutations may have taken place prior to a migration south into the Baltic's. Thoughts?

Yes this is a tricky one and I suspect your hypotheses are reasonable. As an example I have surveyed 20 odd persons in Cornwall with my surname and we are all within a genetic distance of 6. This indicates a recent dispersal in Cornwall but it may be an artifact due to the fact that surnames are a "later" introduction. It may be that my haplotype R-Z16843 went to Cornwall with the Beaker folk and has remained there ever since. It could be from from traders or slaves around the time of Julius Caesar or from Danish Vikings that supported the Cornish in the 9th C AD. Perhaps it went to England with the Norman conquest in 1066 or it could be a Middle Ages introduction from France around the time that surnames were starting to appear. Without supporting DNA analysis it will be impossible to pick which one is the correct pathway

seferhabahir
12-16-2015, 06:26 AM
Assuming the Baltic Jewish migration took place approximately 600 years ago, is it not possible it came from the north? If so, the FGC11986 could be present in the Cimbri, Belgic Gauls, Suebe or some other Northern tribe. The dispersion of FGC11986 into the British Isles could then still be explained by Danish Viking expeditions and other earlier migrations (e.g. Belgic Gauls into Belgea Cornwall). I think it is also possible the Jewish line mutations may have taken place prior to a migration south into the Baltic's. Thoughts?

I think that FGC11986 could be present in a lot of different tribes, including the ones that you mention. But FGC11986 is not a Jewish SNP (it predates Jewish history), but rather one that developed a long time ago in Europe, likely with various offshoots going different places. Because FGC11986 might have been in the North, it does not follow that there was a migration of Jews from the North to the Baltic. The most likely scenario for most of the haplogroups found in testers today with Eastern European Jewish roots is the Diaspora that happened 2000 years ago, with a lot of them going (or deported by the Romans) to Italy and then over time across the Alps into the Rhineland as traders and merchants. From there, they eventually went further east, in particular into the Grand Duchy of Poland and Lithuania when Jews were welcome to move there during the time period I mentioned, and being pushed out of more western European countries. If there were late conversion events, we would tend to see some non-Jews with the same STR values and SNPs as the A555 group under FGC11986.

dt4067
12-20-2015, 11:36 AM
I have just been visiting Adelaide Uni and a group researching ancient mitochondrial DNA and its spread in Europe. They have found that genetic markers of the first very successful pan-European culture were suddenly replaced around 4500 years ago. This genetic diversity was then further altered by a series of succeeding and growing cultures from Iberia and Eastern Europe through to the Late Neolithic. The expansion of the Bell Beaker culture around 2800 BC appears to have been a key event. The Bell Beaker folk in their study matched the DNA of people from modern Spain and Portugal. We have one Z16943 member who has Portuguese descent. No doubt the Bell Beaker folk made a regular trade route from Iberia, Brittany, Cornwall and Ireland, all places where tin was found