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Dr_McNinja
06-03-2015, 12:40 AM
Anyone know who they are? Under L657, Y7

id:YF03545

id:YF03526

Unfortunately, ethnicities aren't listed.

Dr_McNinja
06-10-2015, 04:49 AM
These are both Saudi nationals. So these are South Asian lines sharing a common ancestor with Arabs as recently as 2400ybp.

Dr_McNinja
06-10-2015, 06:32 PM
Update, they might be Arabs of Indian origin.

The person managing the kits said:


Sample YF03545 belongs to a man from the Shammar tribe while sample YF03526 belongs to the Kutbi family of Medina. Their ancestor was a scholar who immigrated from India. However there is a dispute within them. The man whose sample was taken from claims descent from a Hasani Sharif who immigrated to India centuries ago while most of the family insist they are Indian in origin and have nothing to do with Hasani Sharifs or Hashemites in general.

So it looks like it's likely native Indian R-Y7. At least for one of them.

parasar
06-17-2015, 03:20 PM
Update, they might be Arabs of Indian origin.

The person managing the kits said:



So it looks like it's likely native Indian R-Y7. At least for one of them.

Does anyone know the provenance of YF03049ARE [AE-DU]?

Interesting that the Shammar turned out Y7 Y879 and cluster with two Punjabis.
id:HG02727PJL
id:HG03624PJL
id:YF03545
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1860-High-levels-of-R1a1-and-G2-in-Shammar-Bedouins

YF03526 the Kutbi line
Y30/Y25
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1507-Some-provisional-calculations-for-haplogroup-R1a-based-on-the-first-FGC-result&p=33629&highlight=kutbi#post33629

Who knows - both may be correct - migration to Arabia and back.
In fact Mohyal families firmly believe that's the case.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/patna/Hindus-participate-in-Muharram/articleshow/2716459.cms?

"Our ancestors also fought in support of Imam Hussain and sacrificed their lives in Karbala and we are equally pained at the historical martyrdom," said Bhumihar Brahmin Mahasabha convenor Arun Kumar Sharma.
References in several books and records confirm that some Hindus did join Imam Hussain, the grandson of Prophet Mohammad, when he was through a bloody battle against Yezid at Karbala (in Iraq) on October 10, 680 AD.
The sect, which was later named Hussaini Brahmin, had settled on the banks of river Euphrates. Subsequently, they returned to India and assumed various titles like Datts, Mohiyals, Tyagis and many others. They also practised an intriguing blend of Islamic and Hindu traditions.


The story is told Munshi Premchand's Karbala in the legend of Sahas Rai:
https://books.google.com/books?id=opBkfYKBOjsC&pg=PA175

Sahas Rai and his family of seven brothers, devoted Hindus and originally from India, live in an Arabian village. Premchand probably drew the Sahas Rai interpolation from a legend popular among a pocket of Hindus
"Sidh Datt ke nand ji Sahas Rai Parman
Hars Rai jo Datt ji rakhen tek jo maidan -
The well-known Sahas Rai and Hars Rai, sons of Sidh Datt, are to maintain honour in the field."

parasar
07-11-2015, 08:16 PM
YF03713 new
Y30 branch http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y25/

paulgill
07-11-2015, 08:47 PM
Does anyone know the provenance of YF03049ARE [AE-DU]?

Interesting that the Shammar turned out Y7 Y879 and cluster with two Punjabis.
id:HG02727PJL
id:HG03624PJL
id:YF03545
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1860-High-levels-of-R1a1-and-G2-in-Shammar-Bedouins

YF03526 the Kutbi line
Y30/Y25
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1507-Some-provisional-calculations-for-haplogroup-R1a-based-on-the-first-FGC-result&p=33629&highlight=kutbi#post33629

Who knows - both may be correct - migration to Arabia and back.
In fact Mohyal families firmly believe that's the case.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/patna/Hindus-participate-in-Muharram/articleshow/2716459.cms?


The story is told Munshi Premchand's Karbala in the legend of Sahas Rai:
https://books.google.com/books?id=opBkfYKBOjsC&pg=PA175

"Sidh Datt ke nand ji Sahas Rai Parman
Hars Rai jo Datt ji rakhen tek jo maidan -
The well-known Sahas Rai and Hars Rai, sons of Sidh Datt, are to maintain honour in the field."

Aren't the Datt J2?

parasar
07-13-2015, 04:32 PM
Aren't the Datt J2?

Not sure. There was a Y-E1b1b1a Mohyal sample from Sialkot reported.
kenji.aryan is J2b and a Bharadwaj Dutt and his ancestors may have been related in the past to Mohyal Datts.
There is also an R1a1 Chibba sample.

paulgill
07-14-2015, 05:18 AM
Not sure. There was a Y-E1b1b1a Mohyal sample from Sialkot reported.
kenji.aryan is J2b and a Bharadwaj Dutt and his ancestors may have been related in the past to Mohyal Datts.
There is also an R1a1 Chibba sample.

Then they are not of the same lineage. Y-E1b1b1a, is not it a Greek lineage? Chibba R1a1 be of your lineage, J2 people I am convinced are the IVC people.

Abu Saeed
07-29-2015, 11:29 AM
YF03713 new
Y30 branch http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y25/

From Qatar .

wmehar
12-29-2015, 04:02 PM
Does anyone know the provenance of YF03049ARE [AE-DU]?

Interesting that the Shammar turned out Y7 Y879 and cluster with two Punjabis.
id:HG02727PJL
id:HG03624PJL
id:YF03545
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1860-High-levels-of-R1a1-and-G2-in-Shammar-Bedouins

YF03526 the Kutbi line
Y30/Y25
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1507-Some-provisional-calculations-for-haplogroup-R1a-based-on-the-first-FGC-result&p=33629&highlight=kutbi#post33629

Who knows - both may be correct - migration to Arabia and back.
In fact Mohyal families firmly believe that's the case.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/patna/Hindus-participate-in-Muharram/articleshow/2716459.cms?


The story is told Munshi Premchand's Karbala in the legend of Sahas Rai:
https://books.google.com/books?id=opBkfYKBOjsC&pg=PA175

"Sidh Datt ke nand ji Sahas Rai Parman
Hars Rai jo Datt ji rakhen tek jo maidan -
The well-known Sahas Rai and Hars Rai, sons of Sidh Datt, are to maintain honour in the field."

Some more interesting stuff, rivals of the Shammar tribe, Dulaim, have picked up R-M512 > R-L657 in Iraq. Though we need more results/samples from the tribe to get a clearer picture.. With what we have now, the distribution of the tribe depicts 80% R-M512 (a few R-L657) and the one other J-M172. More interestingly, one of the R-L657 samples is a high profile hereditary clan leader and tribal chief.

One of the Dulaimi tribe samples also happens to live in Ramadi Iraq, unfortunately where all the turmoil going on recently.

Also, 2 more Shaibi clan members in Mecca turned up as R-M512.

There must have been huge shifts back then between Sindh and the Fertile Crescent. Right now everyone has ordered Y30.

lgmayka
12-29-2015, 08:18 PM
Right now everyone has ordered Y30.
Why not spend a little more and order the entire R1a-Z93 SNP Pack?

wmehar
12-29-2015, 08:50 PM
Why not spend a little more and order the entire R1a-Z93 SNP Pack?

They all don't wanna shell out $99 each; they're going to stock pile up cash to get Y-Elite for select individuals they're curious about. I'm assuming they're using their leftover funds to just get 1 SNP tested for as many individuals possible as opposed to the $99 R1a-Z93 block. I just recently purchased FG Y Elite 2.0 (or 2.1 now?... who knows).

I'm lucky enough I was able to convince them to shoot for Y-Elite. It's hard enough communicating with these fellahs in Arabic.

parasar
12-30-2015, 03:23 PM
Some more interesting stuff, rivals of the Shammar tribe, Dulaim, have picked up R-M512 > R-L657 in Iraq. Though we need more results/samples from the tribe to get a clearer picture.. With what we have now, the distribution of the tribe depicts 80% R-M512 (a few R-L657) and the one other J-M172. More interestingly, one of the R-L657 samples is a high profile hereditary clan leader and tribal chief.

One of the Dulaimi tribe samples also happens to live in Ramadi Iraq, unfortunately where all the turmoil going on recently.

Also, 2 more Shaibi clan members in Mecca turned up as R-M512.

There must have been huge shifts back then between Sindh and the Fertile Crescent. Right now everyone has ordered Y30.

The R-M512 Shaibi will likely be L657+ Y7+.

al-Shibi L657+, Y7+ M6740 Mecca
Re: "(How R1a is the identified Y-lineage of the Abraham-descended Banu Shaiba, keepers of the keys to the Ka'abah [of the Quraysh tribe in Mecca], is still a mystery to me.)"
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1738-Rootsi-et-al-(2013)-Ashkenazi-Levite-R1a-Discussion-Thread&p=45104&viewfull=1#post45104
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/middle-east/default.aspx?section=ysnp

Coldmountains
12-30-2015, 04:07 PM
The R-M512 Shaibi will likely be L657+ Y7+.

al-Shibi L657+, Y7+ M6740 Mecca
Re: "(How R1a is the identified Y-lineage of the Abraham-descended Banu Shaiba, keepers of the keys to the Ka'abah [of the Quraysh tribe in Mecca], is still a mystery to me.)"
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1738-Rootsi-et-al-(2013)-Ashkenazi-Levite-R1a-Discussion-Thread&p=45104&viewfull=1#post45104
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/middle-east/default.aspx?section=ysnp

There is nothing mysterious about this. Mitanni Indo-Aryans and Persians ruled parts of the today arabic-speaking world and in sparsely populated areas small incursions of Indo-Iranian tribes could change a lot of the y-DNA because of founder effects and bottle necks. Much of R1a in Arabia arrived probably just in islamic times with Central Asian, Persian, Baluch or Indian traders and for example Sogdian mercenaries were settled also there. When Mongols invaded an devastated Central Asia, many Central Asians tried to escape them and moved west to Anatolia and Arabia. Quite ironic that there is in the end much more Central Asian/Indo-Iranian Y-DNA in Arabia among natives than Arabic Y-DNA among natives in Central Asia (actually it is almost absent there). Actually I would even say that SW Asian muslims became more "eastern" shifted in the Islamic age.

wmehar
12-30-2015, 05:22 PM
There is nothing mysterious about this. Mitanni Indo-Aryans and Persians ruled parts of the today arabic-speaking world and in sparsely populated areas small incursions of Indo-Iranian tribes could change a lot of the y-DNA because of founder effects and bottle necks. Much of R1a in Arabia arrived probably just in islamic times with Central Asian, Persian, Baluch or Indian traders and for example Sogdian mercenaries were settled also there. When Mongols invaded an devastated Central Asia, many Central Asians tried to escape them and moved west to Anatolia and Arabia. Quite ironic that there is in the end much more Central Asian/Indo-Iranian Y-DNA in Arabia among natives than Arabic Y-DNA among natives in Central Asia (actually it is almost absent there). Actually I would even say that SW Asian muslims became more "eastern" shifted in the Islamic age.

I think the mystery he is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Parasar), is more plot based. As to how a different YDNA lineage assimilate to become a part of the Quraish tribe. I'm venturing to guess that the pagan ritual of deciding things with a lot of arrows/divination or something to that affect was how it may have happened. They also decided lineages through divination for children/orphans etc. Also, adoption was done frequently and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, names of of the adopter were conferred to the adopted. Funny enough, this practice was forbidden following Islamic revelation; adoptions were only allowed stipulating the adopted retain their names of their original father (case and point with Zaid ibn Harith, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's adopted son).

With all that said, perhaps this branch of the Shaibi Clan, had an adopted forfather.

Though to be quite frank, it's more plausible that the R1a Lineage made it's way before the Quraish tribe was established. In order to gain a deeper understanding of the picture, I feel we should study the history of the northern Adnan tribes. Technically, Adnanite tribes were Arabized. If i'm not mistaken, Quraish were Adnanite (or they claim to be). The lineage of Adnanites goes back to 6th Century BC; They resided in Northern Arabia, spanning from Egypt/Lower Syria to the eastern Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf. Distinct from the Persians, they spoke an ancient version of Arabic (Nabatean/Aramaic? correct me please) and were split into tribal allies Qedarites and Nabateans.

"Adnan died after Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylon. After Adnan's death, his son Ma'ad moved away to the region of Central-Western Hijaz after the destruction of the Qedarite kingdom near Mesopotamia, and the remaining Qedarite Arabs there were displaced from their lands and forced to live in Al-Anbar province and on the banks of the Euphrates river under the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.[26][27][28][29]"

The aforementioned tribe I stated, the Dulaim tribe, is Al-Anbar provincial tribe and majority. Which just so happens to be exhibiting both J-M172 and predominately R-M512 > R-L657 so far.

"Before 1976 the province was known as Ramadi; before 1962, it was known as Dulaim.[1]" - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Province Al-Anbar province is being referenced here.

Looking everything now, in this context, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to see how R1a found it's way in the J1 pool, if these "Arabs" were originally from the north and were Arabized from Iraq.

Sounds crazy, but I think it's plausible. Nothing in stone to really support this yet.

**************EDIT*********************

It's J-M172, not J-M127

parasar
12-30-2015, 06:31 PM
There is nothing mysterious about this. Mitanni Indo-Aryans and Persians ruled parts of the today arabic-speaking world and in sparsely populated areas small incursions of Indo-Iranian tribes could change a lot of the y-DNA because of founder effects and bottle necks. Much of R1a in Arabia arrived probably just in islamic times with Central Asian, Persian, Baluch or Indian traders and for example Sogdian mercenaries were settled also there. When Mongols invaded an devastated Central Asia, many Central Asians tried to escape them and moved west to Anatolia and Arabia. Quite ironic that there is in the end much more Central Asian/Indo-Iranian Y-DNA in Arabia among natives than Arabic Y-DNA among natives in Central Asia (actually it is almost absent there). Actually I would even say that SW Asian muslims became more "eastern" shifted in the Islamic age.

I agree, all of these are indeed possible.


I think the mystery he is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Parasar), is more plot based. As to how a different YDNA lineage assimilate to become a part of the Quraish tribe. I'm venturing to guess that the pagan ritual of deciding things with a lot of arrows/divination or something to that affect was how it may have happened. They also decided lineages through divination for children/orphans etc. Also, adoption was done frequently and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, names of of the adopter were conferred to the adopted. Funny enough, this practice was forbidden following Islamic revelation; adoptions were only allowed stipulating the adopted retain their names of their original father (case and point with Zaid ibn Harith, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's adopted son).

With all that said, perhaps this branch of the Shaibi Clan, had an adopted forfather.

Though to be quite frank, it's more plausible that the R1a Lineage made it's way before the Quraish tribe was established. In order to gain a deeper understanding of the picture, I feel we should study the history of the northern Adnan tribes. Technically, Adnanite tribes were Arabized. If i'm not mistaken, Quraish were Adnanite (or they claim to be). The lineage of Adnanites goes back to 6th Century BC; They resided in Northern Arabia, spanning from Egypt/Lower Syria to the eastern Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf. Distinct from the Persians, they spoke an ancient version of Arabic (Nabatean/Aramaic? correct me please) and were split into tribal allies Qedarites and Nabateans.

"Adnan died after Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylon. After Adnan's death, his son Ma'ad moved away to the region of Central-Western Hijaz after the destruction of the Qedarite kingdom near Mesopotamia, and the remaining Qedarite Arabs there were displaced from their lands and forced to live in Al-Anbar province and on the banks of the Euphrates river under the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.[26][27][28][29]"

The aforementioned tribe I stated, the Dulaim tribe, is Al-Anbar provincial tribe and majority. Which just so happens to be exhibiting both J-M127 and predominately R-M512 > R-L657 so far.

"Before 1976 the province was known as Ramadi; before 1962, it was known as Dulaim.[1]" - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Province Al-Anbar province is being referenced here.

Looking everything now, in this context, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to see how R1a found it's way in the J1 pool, if these "Arabs" were originally from the north and were Arabized from Iraq.

Sounds crazy, but I think it's plausible. Nothing in stone to really support this yet.

Yes that is correct.
Mamluk expressed surprise, I believe, not with just the presence of R1a1 in Arabia, but its presence among the Koraish, especially in the family line in possession of the Kaaba's key from prior to the advent of Islam, and entrusted by the Prophet Mohammad to continue to do so, and which they have done through the present.

Agamemnon
12-30-2015, 10:23 PM
If you're wondering about the Adnanite-Qahtanite dichotomy and how it relates to Arabisation, you should really read what I wrote here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5930-Seal-bearing-the-name-of-Judean-king-Hezekiah-uncovered-in-Jerusalem&p=126162&viewfull=1#post126162).

wmehar
01-05-2016, 02:48 PM
If you're wondering about the Adnanite-Qahtanite dichotomy and how it relates to Arabisation, you should really read what I wrote here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5930-Seal-bearing-the-name-of-Judean-king-Hezekiah-uncovered-in-Jerusalem&p=126162&viewfull=1#post126162).

Very interesting read, and I found the links to the ancient stone inscriptions to be quite fascinating. From what you've wrote, it makes plenty sense to see the inverse in that the Adnanites are seemed to Arabize the Qahtanites. The OSA predated Northern Arabian language right? Though we gotta be technical when talking about these guys in the Bronze Age, there was no Adnan/Qahtan in the Bronze Age.

"Classification issues[edit]
It was originally thought that all four members of this group were dialects of one Old South Arabian language, but in the mid-twentieth century Beeston finally proved that they did in fact constitute independent languages.[2]


South Arabian alphabet inscribed in a rock in Bariq province
The Old South Arabian languages were originally classified (partly on the basis of geography) as South Semitic, along with Arabic, Modern South Arabian and Ethiopian Semitic; more recently however, a new classification has come in use which places Old South Arabian, along with Arabic, Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite/Hebrew in a Central Semitic group; leaving Modern South Arabian and Ethiopic in a separate group. This new classification is based on Arabic, Old South Arabian and Northwest Semitic (Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite) sharing an innovation in the verbal system, an imperfect taking the form *yVqtVl-u (the other groups have *yVqattVl); Nebes showed that Sabaean at least had the form yVqtVl in the imperfect.

Even though has been now accepted that the four main languages be considered independent, they are clearly closely related linguistically and derive from a common ancestor because they share certain morphological innovations. One of the most important isoglosses retained in all four languages is the suffixed definite article - (h)n.[3] There are however significant differences between the languages." - From wiki article

Before the Qahtan tribes were established, it may be more adequate to describe the southern arabs as having expanded north (in a linguistic sense - trade or migration). Which then fermented the foundation of their language to evolve in its own line. Then in due time (post 600 BC-ish after Adnan/Qahtan's time) the northern arabians came back down and spread their own line over the south through up until islamic expansion. It's quite ironic, the Adnanites, "Adnanized" the Qahtans.

There were so many migrations across the arabian peninsula throughout time; I wouldn't be surprised if many seemed to travel and pick up languages from trade. There being so much fewer people back then, I'd imagine it'd be similar to today where many Arabs spoke multiple dialects easily.

parasar
01-05-2016, 10:04 PM
If you're wondering about the Adnanite-Qahtanite dichotomy and how it relates to Arabisation, you should really read what I wrote here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5930-Seal-bearing-the-name-of-Judean-king-Hezekiah-uncovered-in-Jerusalem&p=126162&viewfull=1#post126162).

seferhabahir and you both mentioned the Tamim. The Tamim have both R2 and R1a.
There is an abna connection to them, right? The abna switched early from the Sassanid to the Arabs and were a soldier caste associated with a highly skilled class of iron/steel workers from India.
Please see
The al-abna and the Tamim
https://books.google.com/books?id=Loe6jUEGc6QC&pg=PA37
https://books.google.com/books?id=VfYnu5F20coC&pg=PA270

Please see also:
The Zott and the Tamim
https://books.google.com/books?id=df2mIOnbrDoC&pg=PA20

wmehar
01-06-2016, 03:01 PM
seferhabahir and you both mentioned the Tamim. The Tamim have both R2 and R1a.
There is an abna connection to them, right? The abna switched early from the Sassanid to the Arabs and were a soldier caste associated with a highly skilled class of iron/steel workers from India.
Please see
The al-abna and the Tamim
https://books.google.com/books?id=Loe6jUEGc6QC&pg=PA37
https://books.google.com/books?id=VfYnu5F20coC&pg=PA270

Please see also:
The Zott and the Tamim
https://books.google.com/books?id=df2mIOnbrDoC&pg=PA20

So on page 271, the Abna reference Firuz al-Daylami as another Abna chief. (in wiki he was "Firuz al-Dhalaymi") I didn't realize the similarity to the two names until now. Do you think there's a connection between Dulaimi tribe in Iraq in Al-Anbar and Firuz here? I've read the Dulaimi are also in Oman and Yemen.

From what I understand, when Islamic Prophet Muhammad prophesied to Bādhān ibn Sāsān regarding how Khosrau II will die should he not accept Islam, Badhan then returned to Yemen and waited to see what would happen. When it the prophecy was fulfilled in the same manner as the Prophet Muhammad said it would, they converted immediately.


****EDIT***

Perhaps the name similarity is just a coincidence ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dailamites

Agamemnon
01-12-2016, 11:32 PM
Very interesting read, and I found the links to the ancient stone inscriptions to be quite fascinating. From what you've wrote, it makes plenty sense to see the inverse in that the Adnanites are seemed to Arabize the Qahtanites. The OSA predated Northern Arabian language right? Though we gotta be technical when talking about these guys in the Bronze Age, there was no Adnan/Qahtan in the Bronze Age.

"Classification issues[edit]
It was originally thought that all four members of this group were dialects of one Old South Arabian language, but in the mid-twentieth century Beeston finally proved that they did in fact constitute independent languages.[2]


South Arabian alphabet inscribed in a rock in Bariq province
The Old South Arabian languages were originally classified (partly on the basis of geography) as South Semitic, along with Arabic, Modern South Arabian and Ethiopian Semitic; more recently however, a new classification has come in use which places Old South Arabian, along with Arabic, Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite/Hebrew in a Central Semitic group; leaving Modern South Arabian and Ethiopic in a separate group. This new classification is based on Arabic, Old South Arabian and Northwest Semitic (Ugaritic, Aramaic and Canaanite) sharing an innovation in the verbal system, an imperfect taking the form *yVqtVl-u (the other groups have *yVqattVl); Nebes showed that Sabaean at least had the form yVqtVl in the imperfect.

Even though has been now accepted that the four main languages be considered independent, they are clearly closely related linguistically and derive from a common ancestor because they share certain morphological innovations. One of the most important isoglosses retained in all four languages is the suffixed definite article - (h)n.[3] There are however significant differences between the languages." - From wiki article

Before the Qahtan tribes were established, it may be more adequate to describe the southern arabs as having expanded north (in a linguistic sense - trade or migration). Which then fermented the foundation of their language to evolve in its own line. Then in due time (post 600 BC-ish after Adnan/Qahtan's time) the northern arabians came back down and spread their own line over the south through up until islamic expansion. It's quite ironic, the Adnanites, "Adnanized" the Qahtans.

There were so many migrations across the arabian peninsula throughout time; I wouldn't be surprised if many seemed to travel and pick up languages from trade. There being so much fewer people back then, I'd imagine it'd be similar to today where many Arabs spoke multiple dialects easily.

For all intents and purposes, Hismaic and Safaitic are the closest thing we have to Arabic (which is why they're best labeled "Old Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Arabic)"), then comes Dadanitic and the other Ancient North Arabian languages (Taymanitic, Thamudic B, Thamudic C, Thamudic D, Southern Thamudic, Hasaitic and Dumaitic) which are more para-Arabic languages than anything else (more research is needed to clear up the classification). The relationship between Old Arabic and modern dialects is still unclear, though there are quite a few similarities (some of which may be artificial, in the same way Taymanitic and Dadanitic share certain commonalities with Hebrew which are quite likely artificial in nature). Anyhow, this puts proto-Arabic squarely in the Levantine and NWern edge of the Syro-Arabian desert.

And yes, OSA clearly predates most North Arabian languages. And the fact that it shares the typical Central Semitic verbal innovation, namely the substitution of the original West Semitic *yaqattal stem (which was retained in Ethiosemitic and Modern South Arabian) for a new form comprising the preterite plus an augment, -u in conjugations terminating in a consonant (as in Classical Arabic taktubu) and -na in conjugations terminating in a vowel (as in Classical Arabic taktubīna or taktubūna) certainly indicates that the proto-OSA speakers also came from the north (in all likeliness from the Levant) at some point during the second half of the 3rd millenium BCE (right after the disintegration of proto-Central Semitic around the mid-3rd millenium BCE if you ask me). So it's relatively safe to conclude that most of the demographic changes & upheavals in the Arabian peninsula followed a north-to-south pattern from the start of the Holocene and that this pattern changed with the historical expansions of Arabian tribes (and even then, it isn't that clear-cut, take the Qays and Yaman tribes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qays_and_Yaman_tribes) for example).

Inigo Montoya
01-13-2016, 03:55 PM
And yes, OSA clearly predates most North Arabian languages. And the fact that it shares the typical Central Semitic verbal innovation, namely the substitution of the original West Semitic *yaqattal stem (which was retained in Ethiosemitic and Modern South Arabian) for a new form comprising the preterite plus an augment, -u in conjugations terminating in a consonant (as in Classical Arabic taktubu) and -na in conjugations terminating in a vowel (as in Classical Arabic taktubīna or taktubūna) certainly indicates that the proto-OSA speakers also came from the north (in all likeliness from the Levant) at some point during the second half of the 3rd millenium BCE (right after the disintegration of proto-Central Semitic around the mid-3rd millenium BCE if you ask me). So it's relatively safe to conclude that most of the demographic changes & upheavals in the Arabian peninsula followed a north-to-south pattern from the start of the Holocene and that this pattern changed with the historical expansions of Arabian tribes (and even then, it isn't that clear-cut, take the Qays and Yaman tribes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qays_and_Yaman_tribes) for example).
So would you say that South Semitic as it is usually circumscribed is a paraphyletic grouping, or do you ascribe those common features to contact with Central Semitic?

Agamemnon
01-14-2016, 12:48 AM
So would you say that South Semitic as it is usually circumscribed is a paraphyletic grouping, or do you ascribe those common features to contact with Central Semitic?

I'd simply say that South Semitic is a completely obsolete node since Ethiosemitic and MSA share no common innovations, so there's no such thing as proto-South Semitic and both are basically the earliest (and therefore most conservative) West Semitic offshoots while Proto-Central Semitic is an innovative offshoot which stayed put in the Proto-West Semitic homeland's vicinity.

wmehar
04-04-2016, 03:12 PM
I think the mystery he is referring to (correct me if I'm wrong Parasar), is more plot based. As to how a different YDNA lineage assimilate to become a part of the Quraish tribe. I'm venturing to guess that the pagan ritual of deciding things with a lot of arrows/divination or something to that affect was how it may have happened. They also decided lineages through divination for children/orphans etc. Also, adoption was done frequently and in Pre-Islamic Arabia, names of of the adopter were conferred to the adopted. Funny enough, this practice was forbidden following Islamic revelation; adoptions were only allowed stipulating the adopted retain their names of their original father (case and point with Zaid ibn Harith, the Islamic Prophet Muhammad's adopted son).

With all that said, perhaps this branch of the Shaibi Clan, had an adopted forfather.

Though to be quite frank, it's more plausible that the R1a Lineage made it's way before the Quraish tribe was established. In order to gain a deeper understanding of the picture, I feel we should study the history of the northern Adnan tribes. Technically, Adnanite tribes were Arabized. If i'm not mistaken, Quraish were Adnanite (or they claim to be). The lineage of Adnanites goes back to 6th Century BC; They resided in Northern Arabia, spanning from Egypt/Lower Syria to the eastern Mesopotamia/Persian Gulf. Distinct from the Persians, they spoke an ancient version of Arabic (Nabatean/Aramaic? correct me please) and were split into tribal allies Qedarites and Nabateans.

"Adnan died after Nebuchadnezzar II returned to Babylon. After Adnan's death, his son Ma'ad moved away to the region of Central-Western Hijaz after the destruction of the Qedarite kingdom near Mesopotamia, and the remaining Qedarite Arabs there were displaced from their lands and forced to live in Al-Anbar province and on the banks of the Euphrates river under the rule of the Neo-Babylonian Empire.[26][27][28][29]"

The aforementioned tribe I stated, the Dulaim tribe, is Al-Anbar provincial tribe and majority. Which just so happens to be exhibiting both J-M172 and predominately R-M512 > R-L657 so far.

"Before 1976 the province was known as Ramadi; before 1962, it was known as Dulaim.[1]" - https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Anbar_Province Al-Anbar province is being referenced here.

Looking everything now, in this context, I don't think it's far-fetched at all to see how R1a found it's way in the J1 pool, if these "Arabs" were originally from the north and were Arabized from Iraq.

Sounds crazy, but I think it's plausible. Nothing in stone to really support this yet.

**************EDIT*********************

It's J-M172, not J-M127
*Update*

After speaking with a knowledgeable gentleman from Kuwait, it would seem the connection of R-L657 Quraysh and Dulaim is more complicated (if it exists) than I initially thought. It just so happens that the Dulaim tribe moved into the Al-Anbar Province 500 years back from Northwest Iraq. Where they were before that, I'm not sure. But one thing is for certain, that Dulaim tribe has not always been in Al-Anbar of Iraq thus dispelling any certain R1a links with Quraysh members.

In other news, another gentlemen from Dulaim tribe came up as R-M512.

The hole just keeps getting deeper.:confused:

Dr_McNinja
04-24-2018, 05:54 PM
Just noticed they added https://trace.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/DRASearch/sample?acc=ERS416490 / https://trace.ddbj.nig.ac.jp/DRASearch/run?acc=ERR445345 to R-Y16494 on YFull's tree:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y2439/

My mom's dad is also on this line and his ancestry is also Sikh Punjabi (Pansota clan)