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J Man
06-12-2015, 02:28 AM
With some further investigating and team work it has been determined that the haplogroup J2a sample from Iron Age Altai belongs to the L24 subclade. Some further digging and reading also revealed that this sample is labelled RISE602 in the RISE project and was discovered in the Sary-Bel kurgan. It has been dated to Iron Age (900/700 BC-AD 500/1000 ) and a rough translation from a Russian site has this to say about this burial site. ''So Sarah burial cemetery date back to the beginning of Bel-Hun-Sarmatian time and,
may belong to the people, which penetrated into the Altai Mountains to the southeast".

The Bulan-Kobin culture evolved out of the Pazyryk culture which was Scythian. So there seems like there is a good chance then that this J2a-L24 male may have belonged to the Bulan-Kobin culture which had its origins in the earlier Pazyryk culture.

J Man
06-12-2015, 04:27 PM
My fellow haplogroup J2 researchers seem to have jumped the gun on this one a bit and reported this ancient sample as J2a-L24. With further inspection on the BAM files though it appears that this sample is actually just J2a-M410 instead. If someone could change the title of this thread to "Haplogroup J2a Iron Age Altai" that would be great thanks. :)

J Man
06-13-2015, 10:30 PM
Apparently the other J2 sample from Iron Age Russia actually also comes from Altai. It comes from a site called Kytmanovo. So this is now two J2 samples from Iron Age Altai. This is getting very interesting. Perhaps it was J2/J2a men that introduced iron technology to this part of the world.

MasterRoshi
06-13-2015, 11:34 PM
I said it sooo many times now it is finally proven. J2a beside R1 and R2 and some G/LT is one of the main Haplogroups of the ancient Indo_Iranians.

A person just needs to look at the overall distribution of Haplogroups among modern Indo_Iranian speakers. J2a is among the most frequent Haplogroups in ALL Indo_Iranian speakers.

And now my words are final confirmed. Even though on Eurogenes some people still "doubt it".

Dr_McNinja
06-13-2015, 11:37 PM
Those plain "J2"/J-M172 people on 23andMe should really get SNP testing on FTDNA or YSEQ. I'm virtually certain they're all going to be J2a. It's in a lot of South Asians.

MasterRoshi
06-13-2015, 11:41 PM
Those plain "J2"/J-M172 people on 23andMe should really get SNP testing on FTDNA or YSEQ. I'm virtually certain they're all going to be J2a. It's in a lot of South Asians.


Just look at the distribution of J2a, years ago even Dienekes noticed this, that beside the typical R Haplogroups J2 is very heavy among all Indo_Iranian speakers.

Humanist
06-13-2015, 11:43 PM
I said it sooo many times now it is finally proven. J2a beside R1 and R2 and some G is one of the main Haplogroups of the ancient Indo_Iranians.

A person just needs to look at the overall distribution of Haplogroups among modern Indo_Iranian speakers. J2a is among the most frequent Haplogroups in ALL Indo_Iranian speakers.

And now my words are final confirmed. Even though oN Eurogenes some people still "doubt it".

No offense, but you are not the only one who has been saying this. There are plenty of people who have suggested a link between Indo-Iranian speaking peoples and J2.

Humanist
06-13-2015, 11:48 PM
Just look at the distribution of J2a, years ago even Dienekes noticed this, that beside the typical R Haplogroups J2 is very heavy among all Indo_Iranian speakers.

OK. Well, at least you are spreading the love around a bit here. :)

MasterRoshi
06-14-2015, 12:22 AM
No offense, but you are not the only one who has been saying this. There are plenty of people who have suggested a link between Indo-Iranian speaking peoples and J2.

True it's just that if you were saying the same for many years you will first mention yourself of course like "I was right"! :)

J Man
06-14-2015, 12:27 AM
I said it sooo many times now it is finally proven. J2a beside R1 and R2 and some G is one of the main Haplogroups of the ancient Indo_Iranians.

A person just needs to look at the overall distribution of Haplogroups among modern Indo_Iranian speakers. J2a is among the most frequent Haplogroups in ALL Indo_Iranian speakers.

And now my words are final confirmed. Even though oN Eurogenes some people still "doubt it".

J2a is not very frequent among Pahtuns at all though really.

DMXX
06-14-2015, 12:35 AM
True it's just that if you were saying the same for many years you will first mention yourself of course like "I was right"! :)

What are/were your aliases on other discussion boards? These communities aren't monolithic entities and ideas tend to freely spread across them. Humanist pointed out the distinction between Y-DNA J1 and J2 frequencies in Arab and West Iranic speaking populations since around 2010. Around the same time, I proposed (based on mutual commonality from the Kurds to the Pamirs) on DNA-Forums the Indo-Iranians who arrived in Iran and India belonged to Y-DNA R1a, J2, G, L and R2a. No doubt others before us arrived at similar conclusions that weren't publicly recorded in popular venues.

On that note, there is no benefit to the discussion in referring to anonymous naysayers you've come across on the Eurogenes blog or other external platforms. Let's keep to the topic of Y-DNA J2a in the Altai, which was perhaps one of the more surprising results from the RISE team. Provisionally, it does appear as if Y-DNA J2a has a firm presence in the steppelands beyond the Iron age.

MasterRoshi
06-14-2015, 12:36 AM
J2a is not very frequent among Pahtuns at all though really.

~5% yes not very frequent but still significant. But than Exceptions confirm the rule. Pashtuns are very tribal and I am honestly convinced that is the reason why virtually 2/3 of them are R1a. It's basically Bottle_Neck/founder effect.

Yaghnobis (the only still living descend of Sogdians) are extremely high in J2a.

MasterRoshi
06-14-2015, 12:39 AM
What are/were your aliases on other discussion boards? These communities aren't monolithic entities and ideas tend to freely spread across them. Humanist pointed out the distinction between Y-DNA J1 and J2 frequencies in Arab and West Iranic speaking populations since around 2010. Around the same time, I proposed (based on mutual commonality from the Kurds to the Pamirs) on DNA-Forums the Indo-Iranians who arrived in Iran and India belonged to Y-DNA R1a, J2, G, L and R2a. No doubt others before us arrived at similar conclusions that weren't publicly recorded in popular venues.



I am on DNA Forums since 2006 (with 16 years of age). First starting off on a German Forum with Agrippa. Back than I told Agrippa that J2 is part of the Indo_Iranian ethnogenesis. Than I changed to English speaking boards since at least 2008-9 and proposed that Haplogroup J2a is part of the Indo_Iranian ethnogenesis I even told Agrippa That I don't believe that physically Yamna were like Nordics, turned out I was right. So yes I am around this stuff for long now.


And about J1. I knew that some branches such as J1b are typicl Iranic since 2008 when I saw the first Nasidze paper and saw the 9% of J1 I started to research about it.

I don't remember when but later in time Ricardo (A Brasilian) I came across told me the difference of the various J1.

DMXX
06-14-2015, 12:46 AM
~5% yes not very frequent but still significant. But than Exceptions confirm the rule. Pashtuns are very tribal and I am honestly convinced that is the reason why virtually 2/3 of them are R1a. It's basically Bottle_Neck/founder effect.

Yaghnobis (the only still living descend of Sogdians) are extremely high in J2a.

The Yaghnobi frequency of Y-DNA J2-M172 (32%, Wells et al.) is very likely also the result of several instances of genetic drift. (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/12/yaghnobi-tajiks-preliminary-results-may.html) You haven't spelled out your perceived implication of this vis-a-vis Pashtuns, but I'll assume you're asserting strong uniparental genetic drift has occurred across Central Asia which has distorted Y-DNA frequencies across the board, implying the frequency of Y-DNA J2 among the early Pashtuns may have been greater than it currently is. That's a reasonable scenario IMO.

MasterRoshi
06-14-2015, 12:48 AM
The Yaghnobi frequency of Y-DNA J2-M172 (32%, Wells et al.) is very likely also the result of several instances of genetic drift. (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2012/12/yaghnobi-tajiks-preliminary-results-may.html) You haven't spelled out your perceived implication of this vis-a-vis Pashtuns, but I'll assume you're asserting strong uniparental genetic drift has occurred across Central Asia which has distorted Y-DNA frequencies across the board, implying the frequency of Y-DNA J2 among the early Pashtuns may have been greater than it currently is. That's a reasonable scenario IMO.


^this

J Man
06-14-2015, 01:26 AM
~5% yes not very frequent but still significant. But than Exceptions confirm the rule. Pashtuns are very tribal and I am honestly convinced that is the reason why virtually 2/3 of them are R1a. It's basically Bottle_Neck/founder effect.

Yaghnobis (the only still living descend of Sogdians) are extremely high in J2a.

Yes true J2a certainly is present among the Yaghnobis in significant amounts. Now it seems like the J2a sample from Iron Age Altai may belong to the Bulan-Kobin culture which may be descended from the Scythian derived Pazryk culture. It would be really good to find out which culture this J2a sample from the Sary-Bel kurgan truly belonged to.

parasar
06-14-2015, 03:14 AM
~5% yes not very frequent but still significant. But than Exceptions confirm the rule. Pashtuns are very tribal and I am honestly convinced that is the reason why virtually 2/3 of them are R1a. It's basically Bottle_Neck/founder effect.

Yaghnobis (the only still living descend of Sogdians) are extremely high in J2a.


Afghanistan breakdown by ethnicity from Haber et al.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?unique&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288.s005
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-uDDAlqJzhXI/T3NuJELm1tI/AAAAAAAAEts/g0s9-VfwAkw/s1600/Clipboard05.png


Compare to Tharu-E from Eastern India:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Sk9-TO7DceI/AAAAAAAABwY/9QUGqTOlQfA/s1600/tharus.jpg

J2a phylogeny from Magoon et al.
http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2013/11/22/000802.1.full.pdf
http://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/12/1kG.treeG_.J2a.node_.dependent.cladogram_rev3.png

RISE602 position posted by ChrisR
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4803&d=1434129548

RCO
06-14-2015, 03:33 AM
I am on DNA Forums since 2006 (with 16 years of age). First starting off on a German Forum with Agrippa. Back than I told Agrippa that J2 is part of the Indo_Iranian ethnogenesis. Than I changed to English speaking boards since at least 2008-9 and proposed that Haplogroup J2a is part of the Indo_Iranian ethnogenesis I even told Agrippa That I don't believe that physically Yamna were like Nordics, turned out I was right. So yes I am around this stuff for long now.


And about J1. I knew that some branches such as J1b are typicl Iranic since 2008 when I saw the first Nasidze paper and saw the 9% of J1 I started to research about it.

I don't remember when but later in time Ricardo (A Brasilian) I came across told me the difference of the various J1.

Good points MasterRoshi. I am Ricardo - RCO here. I have tested my type of J1 and we are a very old branch, almost 16000 ybp and now we have all the SNPs from that line. I think those ancient SNPs will be found around Northern Iran and the Caspian Sea because I found some STR matches there and they are very rare and not frequent in other places. My old SNPs should had lived around the Zagros-Alborz-Caspian areas after the warm Bølling-Allerød interstadial period from c. 14,700 to 12,700, before they started to move to distant places. I am still waiting a good next-gen full Y sequencing article with Northern Middle Eastern, Iranian and Central Asian types of J1 and J2, just like a recent G1 study ! Let's wait because my long line of SNPs had other branches for sure.

kenji.aryan
06-14-2015, 03:40 AM
Anything about J2b2?

jesus
06-14-2015, 03:58 AM
Highest frequencies of J2a-L24/M530 in Iran:

Zoroastrian-Yazd 17.6%
Persian-Yazd 17%
Zoroastrian-Teheran 15.4%
Gheshmi(Mixed Persians)-Hormozgan 12.2%
Assyrian- Teheran 11.1%
Mazandarani- Mazandaran 9.7%
Baloch 8.3%

It's More common in the South/South east of the country, a lot of Persian groups are over 20% J2a.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png

J Man
06-14-2015, 04:02 AM
Highest frequencies of J2a-L24/M530 in Iran:

Zoroastrian-Yazd 17.6%
Persian-Yazd 17%
Zoroastrian-Teheran 15.4%
Gheshmi(Mixed Persians)-Hormozgan 12.2%
Assyrian- Teheran 11.1%
Mazandarani- Mazandaran 9.7%
Baloch 8.3%

It's More common in the South/South east of the country, a lot of Persian groups are over 20% J2a.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png

Do not forget about the Bakhtiari as well. They have around 25% haplogroup J2a among them.

parasar
06-14-2015, 04:15 AM
Anything about J2b2?

J2b was found in iron age Armenians.

MasterRoshi
06-14-2015, 12:00 PM
Highest frequencies of J2a-L24/M530 in Iran:

Zoroastrian-Yazd 17.6%
Persian-Yazd 17%
Zoroastrian-Teheran 15.4%
Gheshmi(Mixed Persians)-Hormozgan 12.2%
Assyrian- Teheran 11.1%
Mazandarani- Mazandaran 9.7%
Baloch 8.3%

It's More common in the South/South east of the country, a lot of Persian groups are over 20% J2a.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_mypYjUAwqw/UAjZdNrHAqI/AAAAAAAAAMY/nxbhHviubow/s1600/study4.png


There is also 7% M530 among the Kurds in this study.
The lineage found in the Kurgan is m410 however.
Teheran and Mazandaran are not in the South. This is only one study from other I know the frequency of J2a is significantly larger in all ethnic groups in the region.
And I bet with you we will find other subclades in the future among ancient Indo_Iranian speakers.

jesus
06-14-2015, 12:17 PM
There is also 7% M530 among the Kurds in this study.
The lineage found in the Kurgan is m410 however.
Teheran and Mazandaran are not in the South. This is only one study from other I know the frequency of J2a is significantly larger in all ethnic groups in the region.
And I bet with you we will find other subclades in the future among ancient Indo_Iranian speakers.

That's I said more common.

Assyrians and Zoroastrians shouldn't be counted as native " northerners ", because they are not native to that region. Just like a lot of Tehranis, the Tehrani Zoroastrians were originally from somewhere else, they were from Kerman or Yazd, SE Iran.


While by 1975, Tehran had become the centre of Iranian Zoroastrians in the last hundred years, the Zoroastrians of Tehran had for the main part migrated there from Yazd, Kerman and the other districts.

http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/demographics/index.htm

MasterRoshi
06-14-2015, 12:21 PM
That's I said more common.

Assyrians and Zoroastrians shouldn't be counted as native " northerners ", because they are not native to that region. Just like a lot of Tehranis, the Tehrani Zoroastrians were originally from somewhere else, they were from Kerman or Yazd, SE Iran.

http://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/demographics/index.htm


Mazandaran is in the North still.

But than Baloch are most likely not native to Southeast either ;).

As said other studies show significantly higher Frequency of J2a in other parts of the regions too. Therefore I would take this one study alone with a grain of salt.

jesus
06-14-2015, 12:34 PM
Mazandaran is in the North still.

But than Baloch are most likely not native to Southeast either ;).

As said other studies show significantly higher Frequency of J2a in other parts of the regions too. Therefore I would take this one study alone with a grain of salt.

Well, the Baloch have been living in Modern day Iranian Balochistan well before the 15th century, unlike Tehrani Zoroastrians who migrated to Tehran 150 years ago.



Records of the Baluch are much more plentiful from the time of Maḥmūd of Ḡazna, as well as more circumstantial, and it is very likely that they were settled in their present-day habitat well before the 15th century (see Dames in EI1 I, pp. 625-40; Frye in EI2 I, pp. 1005-06).

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/baluchistan-iii

I agree, J2a seems to be one of the most common Y-DNAs in Iran(most ethnicities) and in other parts of the region as well.

J Man
06-14-2015, 06:08 PM
This site seems to give a bit of background information about the Sar-Bel kurgan where this J2a sample was found. Here is an interesting quote.

''The monuments of the subsequent Hun-Sarmat period of Gorny Altai were almost unknown until lately. However, about 20 monuments of the period of VI centuries B.C. were found and explored during the last two decades. Here belong the burial mounds of Ust-Edigan, Tchendeck, Verkh-Uimon, Sary-Bel, Bulan-Koby, Airydash, Kuraika and others. Other archeological monuments such as settlements, shrines, production centers are also known.''

http://www.altaidt.com/pages/archaeology

J Man
06-14-2015, 07:53 PM
The Kytmanovo J2 sample has been dated to 746-889 AD and his mtDNA haplogroup is C4a1d. Jean Manco had added him to her ancient DNA page which is great.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

Polska
06-14-2015, 10:14 PM
The Kytmanovo J2 sample has been dated to 746-889 AD and his mtDNA haplogroup is C4a1d. Jean Manco had added him to her ancient DNA page which is great.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ironagedna.shtml

To put it in perspective, Kytmanovo is closer to Peking than Moscow. That's way out there for J2. I take it this J2 is also a J2a as well? Looks like he was a local with that mtDNA. Fascinating. Good stuff.

J Man
06-14-2015, 10:29 PM
To put it in perspective, Kytmanovo is closer to Peking than Moscow. That's way out there for J2. I take it this J2 is also a J2a as well? Looks like he was a local with that mtDNA. Fascinating. Good stuff.

I am not sure if he is J2a or J2b as no subclade further down than J2 is listed but I would say that he has a higher chance of being J2a rather than J2b.

MasterRoshi
06-14-2015, 10:29 PM
So we have two J2/a samples in Kurgans from a time spanning from 900 BC to 600 AD. That is a large period of time and clearly another evidence that this Haplogroup is a major founder among the Indo_Iranian speakers.

J Man
06-14-2015, 10:50 PM
So we have two J2/a samples in Kurgans from a time spanning from 900 BC to 600 AD. That is a large period of time and clearly another evidence that this Haplogroup is a major founder among the Indo_Iranian speakers.

I would say more so from 900 BC-700 AD and we do not know really yet if the Kytmanovo sample comes from a kurgan or not but Sary-Bel for sure seems to be from a kurgan.

J Man
06-15-2015, 11:06 AM
RISE504 from the Kytmanovo site also seems to be J2a. Two confirmed J2a results from Iron Age Altai now.

icebreaker
06-15-2015, 11:46 AM
There is a Mughal-Timurid cluster of J2a on FTDNA

0201 L24+, L25+, Mughal-Timurid

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/j-L24-Y-DNA/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

J Man
06-15-2015, 12:35 PM
Well the Kytmanovo J2a man may have lived no earlier than 700 AD it is still interesting to see another old J2a sample turn up in Altai.

DMXX
06-15-2015, 12:56 PM
One hidden benefit to the finding of Y-DNA J2a (and R1a1a before it) in the Altai is it reaffirms the position that the early speakers of Turkic likely didn't just possess Siberian or East Eurasian paternal lines (e.g. Q, N, C, O). There is plenty of evidence supporting interactions between Indo-European speakers with the early Turks (e.g. numerous confirmed East Iranic loanwords, postulated Tocharian). Notions of discontinuity between these results and the proto-Turks are misplaced, given the Iron Age Altai is precisely the period whence proto-Turkic appears to have interacted with the likes of proto-Mongolic and East Iranic.

Ergo, a (currently unknown) portion of the Y-DNA J2a and R1a1a found in West Asia among Anatolian Turks, Republic and Iranian Azeris will probably be traced to these Altaian lines. One substantial complication is there will likely be significant overlap with the other steppe migrations that arrived in West Asia (West Iranic speaking tribes in particular, also Scythians, Cimmerians). Improved Y-SNP coverage will hopefully resolve this.

I also suspect, with respect to the Oghuz, we'll be able to add Y-DNA L1c. In fact, my very first blog entry (http://vaedhya.blogspot.com/2011/09/of-buryats-and-kalmyks-r2a-connection.html) found an "Altaic-oriented" R2a-M124 haplotype shared between Buryats in Mongolia and Kalmyks in the Caucasus, which further drives home the point that conventional assumptions based on uniparental marker distribution =/= absolute rules. Ancient DNA will continue to shatter erroneous prior-held beliefs obscuring proper community-wide work and allow us to investigate all possibilities. I resolutely embrace this new period.

Anabasis
06-15-2015, 01:42 PM
So we have two J2/a samples in Kurgans from a time spanning from 900 BC to 600 AD. That is a large period of time and clearly another evidence that this Haplogroup is a major founder among the Indo_Iranian speakers.

I wonder there will not be any haplogroup which isnt associated with indo-europeans soon.

MasterRoshi
06-15-2015, 01:57 PM
I wonder there will not be any haplogroup which isnt associated with indo-europeans soon.

Thats a thing I always said but some people held on their "one ancient group = one Haplogroup theories. Look I as a R1a person was one of the biggest defenders that other Haplogroups beside R1a have been part of the Indo_Iranian and Indo_European in general, expansion.

I mean someone needs only to use common sense. Those Haplogroups are tens of thousands of years old. PIE ~5-6 thousand of years.

How on earth should we expect that the Haplogroups hadn't mixed already to become new people.

Anabasis
06-15-2015, 04:01 PM
Thats a thing I always said but some people held on their "one ancient group = one Haplogroup theories. Look I as a R1a person was one of the biggest defenders that other Haplogroups beside R1a have been part of the Indo_Iranian and Indo_European in general, expansion.

I mean someone needs only to use common sense. Those Haplogroups are tens of thousands of years old. PIE ~5-6 thousand of years.

How on earth should we expect that the Haplogroups hadn't mixed already to become new people.

Actually i was kidding. Today you can find any haplogroup which is part of indo european speaking population. But we are talking about ancient populations. In my opinion in pre-historic times influence of a language was not DIRECTLY related with poltical influence. But iron age or late bronze age civilizations are expected to be mixed populations as far as centralization of "comunity" management and dominant language tooks place in that period is concerned. Iron age or Late bronze age migrations should be discussed regarding this facts. In my opinion J can ve involved the spread of indo european languages BUT it can not be so called "source HG" for PROTO indo european.

tamilgangster
06-16-2015, 11:35 AM
Haplogroup J2-m172: Peaks among Paravars and kadars,(38 and 28 percent respectively). Occurs around 10-15% in middle and low castes. Absent/neglible in most tribal groups and brahmins.

There is no way that J2 is indoeuropean related judging from the fact that in occurs in higher levels among low caste and tribals than among brahmins. Its probably related to Basal eurasian/bedouin type ENF


4903

DMXX
06-16-2015, 12:13 PM
Haplogroup J2-m172: Peaks among Paravars and kadars,(38 and 28 percent respectively). Occurs around 10-15% in middle and low castes. Absent/neglible in most tribal groups and brahmins.

There is no way that J2 is indoeuropean related judging from the fact that in occurs in higher levels among low caste and tribals than among brahmins. Its probably related to Basal eurasian/bedouin type ENF

Looking at modern Indian Y-DNA J2a frequencies, completely ignoring its' presence in opposite ends of the steppe far from any "Bedouin type ENF" or any of the analyses...

With all due respect, have you actually read through this thread?

parasar
06-16-2015, 12:27 PM
Anything about J2b2?

The Armenian sample reported as J2b is J2b2f per Genetiker's analysis.

MasterRoshi
06-16-2015, 12:30 PM
Looking at modern Indian Y-DNA J2a frequencies, completely ignoring its' presence in opposite ends of the steppe far from any "Bedouin type ENF" or any of the analyses...

With all due respect, have you actually read through this thread?

Not only this. Someone would think common sense by now should tell that "Bedouin type" ENF is more connected to an E1b-G2a mix. while J as brother of I would be either connected to WHG/ANE or rather likely a WHG/ANE and ENF hybrid (Caucasus_Gedrosia). It probably originates on the Iranian Plateau.

And it is not even about J2 in general as he talking about J2-M172. It is about clades of J2a.

parasar
06-16-2015, 12:50 PM
Not only this. Someone would think common sense by now should tell that "Bedouin type" ENF is more connected to an E1b-G2a mix. while J as brother of I would be either connected to WHG/ANE or rather likely a WHG/ANE and ENF hybrid (Caucasus_Gedrosia). It probably originates on the Iranian Plateau.

And it is not even about J2 in general as he talking about J2-M172. It is about clades of J2a.
Which clades of J2a?

Jean M
06-16-2015, 01:06 PM
Chris R has reported in detail on the two J2a2 samples from the Iron Age Altai included in Allentoft 2015: RISE504 and RISE602.

He says that since PF5056 is equivalent to PF5060 and PF5048 is equivalent to PF5082 they are in the same paragroup. These two samples share SNPs with two modern samples, one Uygur and one Turkish, currently best named as J2a2-PH3085,SK1403.

http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/

ISOGG is very limited for J2a2. But on the J2 Research tree, which Parasar posted earlier: PF5050 >PF5058> PF5000> PF5056> PH3085,SK1403

Chris R has now updated the tree to show the position of RISE504 as well as RISE602, which was on it when Parasar posted it.

RCO
06-16-2015, 01:43 PM
Not only this. Someone would think common sense by now should tell that "Bedouin type" ENF is more connected to an E1b-G2a mix. while J as brother of I would be either connected to WHG/ANE or rather likely a WHG/ANE and ENF hybrid (Caucasus_Gedrosia). It probably originates on the Iranian Plateau.

And it is not even about J2 in general as he talking about J2-M172. It is about clades of J2a.

The Paleolithic J (J1-J2) types from the Iranian Plateau and the Mesolithic basal types of J1 and J2 from Iran, all continuously living there since IJ ages, will be the missing link to fully understand the genetics associated with the Indo-European movements. Only when the Iranian J hunter-gatherer population types could be compared with the R hunter-gatherer population types, like the one from Mal'ta, we are going to understand the totality and the complete genetic mediations. Not only Siberia, but to explain the steppe's genetics without Iran is just like the sink without one of the main source areas.

parasar
06-16-2015, 02:09 PM
Haplogroup J2-m172: Peaks among Paravars and kadars,(38 and 28 percent respectively). Occurs around 10-15% in middle and low castes. Absent/neglible in most tribal groups and brahmins.

There is no way that J2 is indoeuropean related judging from the fact that in occurs in higher levels among low caste and tribals than among brahmins. Its probably related to Basal eurasian/bedouin type ENF

...

Arunkumar's dataset is extensive so I think it is very reliable, but it does not breakdown the numbers for J2a. For J2 overall I would agree that there is little if any correlation seen in the subcontinent except for its absence in NE TB tribals (not including the terai Tharu).
That J2 is clearly represented in the Dravidian low castes & tribes is also seen from Thanseem et al.'s AP data. But if you note R1a1, R2a and R (likely R2-M479) are present too.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/figures/1471-2156-7-42-2.jpg

Watkins et al. did look at J2/J2a in TN & AP castes. They could not find any correlation of J2 overall with caste level - "was present in all castes but not correlated with caste rank."
The same appears to be the case with their J2a data - difficult to see any correlation.
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/9/86/table/T1

tamilgangster
06-16-2015, 06:49 PM
[QUOTE=DMXX;90195]Looking at modern Indian Y-DNA J2a frequencies, completely ignoring its' presence in opposite ends of the steppe far from any "Bedouin type ENF" or any of the analyses...

With all due respect, have you actually read through this thread?[/QUOTE
What made me think that is the it peaks among Paravars and Kadars who are low caste/tribals and that J2 in general is highest among Sw asians. But it being gedrosian related makes more sense judging from the fact it's frequent among ANE rich populations.

J Man
06-18-2015, 06:29 PM
Haplogroup J2-m172: Peaks among Paravars and kadars,(38 and 28 percent respectively). Occurs around 10-15% in middle and low castes. Absent/neglible in most tribal groups and brahmins.

There is no way that J2 is indoeuropean related judging from the fact that in occurs in higher levels among low caste and tribals than among brahmins. Its probably related to Basal eurasian/bedouin type ENF


4903

You really need to read more before posting a reply.

J Man
06-18-2015, 06:36 PM
Chris R has reported in detail on the two J2a2 samples from the Iron Age Altai included in Allentoft 2015: RISE504 and RISE602.

He says that since PF5056 is equivalent to PF5060 and PF5048 is equivalent to PF5082 they are in the same paragroup. These two samples share SNPs with two modern samples, one Uygur and one Turkish, currently best named as J2a2-PH3085,SK1403.

http://j2-m172.info/2015/06/j2a2-ph3085-sk1403-ancient-altai-modern-uygur-turkish/

ISOGG is very limited for J2a2. But on the J2 Research tree, which Parasar posted earlier: PF5050 >PF5058> PF5000> PF5056> PH3085,SK1403

Chris R has now updated the tree to show the position of RISE504 as well as RISE602, which was on it when Parasar posted it.

This is very important. The presence of this type of J2a2 among two individual samples from Iron Age Altai that lived hundreds of years apart and were buried at different sites I think is quite telling. Also what is just as equally important and interesting is the fact that SNP wise they seem to cluster with a modern day Uyghur sample and a modern day Turkish sample. These ancient samples are looking quite Turkic.

MasterRoshi
06-18-2015, 08:47 PM
This is very important. The presence of this type of J2a2 among two individual samples from Iron Age Altai that lived hundreds of years apart and were buried at different sites I think is quite telling. Also what is just as equally important and interesting is the fact that SNP wise they seem to cluster with a modern day Uyghur sample and a modern day Turkish sample. These ancient samples are looking quite Turkic.


not the one from 50 BC to 50 AD. That is Scythian epoch. 700 AD would be the time when the first Turkic Speakers were starting to form and lived side by side with Iranic speakers.

parasar
06-18-2015, 09:08 PM
not 50 AD. That is Scythian epoch. 700 AD would be the time when the first Turkic Speakers formed.

The generally accepted position is that the Turks at least date to the Kok Turks.
Other consider the Huns who invaded Europe to be Turkic and descended from Turkic Hsiung Nu.

Orhon http://bitig.org/?lang=e&mod=1&tid=1

Moses of Chorene (~450AD) talking about a period about 200AD: "Rex autem aquilonarius appellatur Chacanus [Khan], qui est Chazirorum [Khazar] dominus, et regina vocatur Chathunia [Khatun] qua: est Chacani conjux ex Basiliorum gente orta"

MasterRoshi
06-18-2015, 11:59 PM
The generally accepted position is that the Turks at least date to the Kok Turks.
Other consider the Huns who invaded Europe to be Turkic and descended from Turkic Hsiung Nu.

Orhon http://bitig.org/?lang=e&mod=1&tid=1

Moses of Chorene (~450AD) talking about a period about 200AD: "Rex autem aquilonarius appellatur Chacanus [Khan], qui est Chazirorum [Khazar] dominus, et regina vocatur Chathunia [Khatun] qua: est Chacani conjux ex Basiliorum gente orta"


From what I have been reading Huns were a Central Asian nomadic confederation made up of various Indo European groups (pred. Indo_Iranian and some Germanic, Slavic groups) and Ataic groups. I think this nomadic confederation was the event which gave the starting shot for Turkic groups (everything was intermingling).

200 AD would be too early. Maybe some sort of Proto Turkic groups were wandering around the Altais but by that time they hadn't expanded and the whole region was still Indo_Iranian speaking.

J Man
06-25-2015, 01:01 PM
Both of these ancient J2a samples have been run through a number of autosomal calculators on GEDmatch and they both look very Central Asian like overall genetically. They both have a large proportion of East Eurasian derived ancestry from the looks of it. I will post the results later on today after work if someone else does not beat me to it.

Afshar
06-25-2015, 01:11 PM
The both Js look pretty Turkic to me.

Rise504
Amerindian 2.06%
Ancestral_Altaic 13.82%
South_Central_Asian 9.59%
Arctic 3.08%
South_Indian - * *
Australoid - * *
Austronesian 2.41%
Caucasian 1.74%
Archaic_Human - * *
East_African - * *
East_Siberian 24.20%
European_Early_Farmers 3.21%
Khoisan - * *
Melano_Polynesian 0.44%
Archaic_African - * *
Near_East - * *
North_African - * *
Paleo_Siberian 2.17%
African_Pygmy 0.76%
South_East_Asian 4.86%
Subsaharian - * *
Tungus-Altaic 24.95%
European_Hunters_Gatherers 6.70%

RISE504

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hakas @ 11.856087
2 Altaian @ 16.578077
3 Tatar-Siberian @ 17.212290
4 Kazahs @ 18.337963
5 Kazakh @ 19.484564
6 Kyrgyz_Bishkek @ 20.232508
7 Tuvinian @ 20.494673
8 Kyrgyz @ 21.989847
9 Karakalpak @ 23.627129
10 Turkmen_Afghan @ 24.789608
11 Even @ 25.225533
12 Hazara @ 25.677519
13 Kalmyk @ 26.557173
14 Uzbek @ 26.621769
15 Uygur @ 26.693933
16 Mongolian @ 26.694668
17 Buryat @ 27.639973
18 Bashkir @ 28.123568
19 Uygur-Han @ 28.435186
20 Tajik_Tajikistan @ 29.536480
Rise602
Amerindian 2.77%
Ancestral_Altaic 20.84%
South_Central_Asian 13.95%
Arctic 4.43%
South_Indian 2.36%
Australoid - * *
Austronesian - * *
Caucasian 4.82%
Archaic_Human - * *
East_African - * *
East_Siberian 12.30%
European_Early_Farmers 6.70%
Khoisan - * *
Melano_Polynesian - * *
Archaic_African - * *
Near_East - * *
North_African - * *
Paleo_Siberian 0.84%
African_Pygmy - * *
South_East_Asian - * *
Subsaharian 0.50%
Tungus-Altaic 12.46%
European_Hunters_Gatherers 18.04%

RISE602

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Bashkir @ 16.150564
2 Tatar-Siberian @ 17.450636
3 Udmurd @ 22.594164
4 Turkmen_Afghan @ 22.864012
5 Uzbek @ 24.861996
6 Chuvashs @ 25.666315
7 Mari @ 25.772064
8 Tajik_Tajikistan @ 25.947664
9 Hakas @ 26.752455
10 Karakalpak @ 26.882637
11 Uygur-Han @ 26.886364
12 Turkmen_Uzbekistan @ 27.156502
13 Kazahs @ 27.631035
14 Chuvash @ 27.916447
15 Tatar @ 28.263233
16 Uygur @ 28.557035
17 Hazara @ 29.517994
18 Crimean_Tatar_Step @ 30.008299
19 Kazakh @ 30.196646
20 Tatar-Kazan @ 31.514490

J Man
06-25-2015, 01:32 PM
Yes I agree that overall genetically they do look quite Turkic.

Ashina
06-25-2015, 01:36 PM
Higher Siberian vs East Asian ratio plus they seem to be more Caucasoid than modern South Siberians. Pretty much what I expected from pre-Mongol expansion Turkics.

J Man
06-25-2015, 01:46 PM
Higher Siberian vs East Asian ratio plus they seem to be more Caucasoid than modern South Siberians. Pretty much what I expected from pre-Mongol expansion Turkics.

I wish that we could find out exactly which cultures these two ancient J2a samples belonged/belong to?

Ashina
06-25-2015, 01:54 PM
I wish that we could find out exactly which cultures these two ancient J2a samples belonged/belong to?

Me too. But I have no doubt that these people contributed to the first Turkic groups, whatever their culture was.

Wish there were more samples from further West of the Gokturk Empire tho, the Kipchak/Bulgar speaking areas.

ryl
06-26-2015, 11:51 AM
Admixture comparison of two ancient J2a samples in Altai displays that they seem to be related to Turkic people.

http://www.haplogruplar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/autosomal-dna-comparison-of-ancient-altai-j2a-samples-2.png

http://www.haplogruplar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/RISE602-RISE504-results.jpg

ChrisR
06-26-2015, 12:14 PM
Interesting are the shifts in admixture from RISE602 to RISE504 as well as the change of nearest pop. approx.: Bashkir/Udmurd earlier and Hakas/Altaian later. I'm no admixture and history expert of the area but it seems RISE602 has quantifiable amounts of South-West Asian admixture (maybe not detectable anymore in Central Asia now) that already in RISE504 shifted away. That could point to a migration of many RISE602 ancestors including his Y-ancestor not much time before RISE602 from Southwest of the Caspian-Himalaya line to the Altai area, IMHO this is possible as soon as 6 generations before RISE602.

EDIT: I made a map showing modern relative pops of RISE602. Very interesting; I think we need much more ancient genomes from the (Eastern) Steppe as well as modern Y-sequences. Most interesting will be to see Haplogroup frequencies in the whole Eurasian Steppe. As said I'm no expert of this region but I would like to see what comes after R1a: R1b, J2 or C?
http://abload.de/img/j2a2-rise602-modern-ro7y1h.png (http://abload.de/image.php?img=j2a2-rise602-modern-ro7y1h.png)

If you didn't know yet (as me) see here the highly-red-haired Udmurt people - Steppe continues to amaze; much to discover in the last 6,000 years.
http://abload.de/thumb/udmurty9z0l.jpg (http://abload.de/image.php?img=udmurty9z0l.jpg)

Caspian
07-04-2015, 07:58 PM
Higher Siberian vs East Asian ratio plus they seem to be more Caucasoid than modern South Siberians. Pretty much what I expected from pre-Mongol expansion Turkics.

I think Oghuzes who lived in Kazakh steppe 1200 years ago were similar to average of RISE504 and RISE602 or only RISE504.

ChrisR
09-24-2015, 04:48 AM
Most interesting will be to see Haplogroup frequencies in the whole Eurasian Steppe. As said I'm no expert of this region but I would like to see what comes after R1a: R1b, J2 or C?
This one seems to address my question with a surprising outcome: G1 might be a contender
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0122968
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