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Passa
06-13-2015, 01:47 PM
On J-P209's Wikipedia page, it is written:

"Paragroup J-P209*

Paragroup J-P209*[Phylogenetics 1] includes all of J-P209 except for J-M267 and J-M172. J-P209* is rarely found outside of the island of Socotra, off the coast of Yemen, where it is quite frequent at 71.4%.[5] Haplogroup J-P209* also has been found with lower frequency in Oman (Giacomo 2004), Ashkenazi Jews,[6] Saudi Arabia (Abu-Amero 2009), Greece (Giacomo 2004), the Czech Republic (Giacomo 2004 and Luca 2007), Uygurs [7] and several Turkic peoples.[8] (Cinnioglu 2004 and Varzari 2006)".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-P209

Since I'm not up to date with J-P209's phylogeny, are these real cases of J* or not?

Kale
06-13-2015, 01:50 PM
You have to check the individual studies to see if they actually tested for J1* or J2*. In some older studies (or even poor newer ones) you'll see them test for let's say J, and J1c3...and that's it. So if it's J2b....then it just gets reported as J. This goes for any y-haplogroup really.

Agamemnon
06-13-2015, 01:58 PM
The Soqotri J* is quite interesting and could potentially change our understanding of J's history... It's a shame no one is looking into this right now.

RCO
06-13-2015, 03:03 PM
J-P209 is only one SNP in the long line of J SNPs before the J1/J2 bifurcation. Genetic genealogy is a kind of exact-hard science and facts will always emerge sooner or later. J and specially J1 are among the most complex geopolitical haplogroups and the full sequence of basal IJ, J and J1 reported types are not attracting interests.

J Man
07-04-2015, 10:47 PM
The Soqotri J* is quite interesting and could potentially change our understanding of J's history... It's a shame no one is looking into this right now.

Yes the J* present in Socotra is actually very interesting. It is probably related to a very early expansion of J men from the Arabian plate to Socotra in very ancient times. It is like looking into the past.

Passa
07-04-2015, 11:56 PM
Yes the J* present in Socotra is actually very interesting. It is probably related to a very early expansion of J men from the Arabian plate to Socotra in very ancient times. It is like looking into the past.

There is some J (xJ1,J2) in some Ethiopian groups today

J Man
07-05-2015, 12:05 AM
There is some J (xJ1,J2) in some Ethiopian groups today

Interesting...Do you know exactly which Ethiopian groups?

Agamemnon
07-05-2015, 12:27 AM
There is some J (xJ1,J2) in some Ethiopian groups today

I think it's safe to say that most of it might actually be J1.

Passa
07-05-2015, 01:04 AM
Interesting...Do you know exactly which Ethiopian groups?

At the moment I'm too sleepy to check. Tomorrow.

Agamemnon
07-10-2015, 01:00 AM
Interesting...Do you know exactly which Ethiopian groups?

Mostly Afroasiatic-speaking groups, such as the [North] Omotic-speaking Shekecho, Kefa & Yem, the Cushitic-speaking Afar, Agew and Oromo as well as the Ethiosemitic-speaking Amhara and Gurage (in that order). Since we can already assume most of it is J1, it is important to determine which J1 branches are to be found in these groups as it could have important implications for J1's history as well as its relationship to the dispersal of AA languages. I already suspect the Afar won't be very diverse, since their nomadic lifestyle isn't exactly diversity-friendly - something we observe in other J1-rich nomadic groups - but I could be wrong.
I already said it before, I'll say it again: As long as East African J1 remains unstudied, I'll always get the impression we're missing an important part of J1's history.

J Man
07-10-2015, 01:29 AM
Mostly Afroasiatic-speaking groups, such as the [North] Omotic-speaking Shekecho, Kefa & Yem, the Cushitic-speaking Afar, Agew and Oromo as well as the Ethiosemitic-speaking Amhara and Gurage (in that order). Since we can already assume most of it is J1, it is important to determine which J1 branches are to be found in these groups as it could have important implications for J1's history as well as its relationship to the dispersal of AA languages. I already suspect the Afar won't be very diverse, since their nomadic lifestyle isn't exactly diversity-friendly - something we observe in other J1-rich nomadic groups - but I could be wrong.
I already said it before, I'll say it again: As long as East African J1 remains unstudied, I'll always get the impression we're missing an important part of J1's history.

No doubt...The study of the East African J1 subclades is indeed very important I think.

Lank
07-10-2015, 04:10 PM
Mostly Afroasiatic-speaking groups, such as the [North] Omotic-speaking Shekecho, Kefa & Yem, the Cushitic-speaking Afar, Agew and Oromo as well as the Ethiosemitic-speaking Amhara and Gurage (in that order). Since we can already assume most of it is J1, it is important to determine which J1 branches are to be found in these groups as it could have important implications for J1's history as well as its relationship to the dispersal of AA languages. I already suspect the Afar won't be very diverse, since their nomadic lifestyle isn't exactly diversity-friendly - something we observe in other J1-rich nomadic groups - but I could be wrong.
I already said it before, I'll say it again: As long as East African J1 remains unstudied, I'll always get the impression we're missing an important part of J1's history.
The STR lineages of Afar J1 lineages are indeed distinct from other Ethiopians in Plaster's analysis.

Genuine J(xJ1,J2) has been found in the Maale. Unfortunately, the other Omotics in Plaster's thesis weren't tested at this resolution. Nevertheless, the combination of finding J(xJ1,J2) in a group also belonging to the most divergent Afroasiatic branch (Omotic) is very intriguing. Particularly as it hasn't been found in any other (Cushitic/Semitic) Ethiopians.

Agamemnon
07-12-2015, 01:38 AM
I've been wondering about the Solluba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solluba) recently... Perhaps we could entertain the possibility that they were mostly J*.

Passa
07-12-2015, 03:20 AM
I've been wondering about the Solluba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solluba) recently... Perhaps we could entertain the possibility that they were mostly J*.

I would add E1b too.

Passa
07-14-2015, 01:38 AM
Agamemnon was wondering about Solluba's Y-DNA makeup. Here is what I found.

"Samples for DNA analysis were collected from volunteers from the Adnani tribes of Al-Aniza, Mutran and Awazim (a Suluba tribe), and the Qahtani tribes of Ajman, Shimar and Murrah. This selection is representative of the most prominent tribes of Adnani and Qahtani lineages of Arabia. Results from the sample were compared with data from other populations derived from the literature."

"The Awazim stand out because of their high frequency of haplogroup E-M123 (24.3 %), the highest yet reported in any population. The highest frequency reported previously (23.5 %) was in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al., 2004). The Awazim also showed the presence of haplogroup R2 (R-M124), characteristic of South Asia (Sengupta et al., 2006). There may be a possible link to the Roma (‘Gypsy’) migrations. It has also been proposed that the Awazim may have originated from the Caucasus—also consistent with the theory of “Suluba” (Bell and Richmond, 1937)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869035/#S9title

I think that the equation E-M123 = pre-Semitic Arabians (and probably Levantines) is somewhat supported by the recent Bronze Age Armenian findings.

Autosomally, the Awazim are the "purest" population in the study, with the maximum proportion of the green component, which would seemingly be the Arabian/Red_Sea component in calculators. See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869035/figure/F1/

Agamemnon
07-14-2015, 02:51 AM
Fascinating find Passa, don't know how I missed this since I've been familiar with this study for a long time now (mostly because the 'Ajman tribe is reported as 100% J-M267, an interesting fact to me since the hookah tobacco I smoke is made & sold by this tribe :P ).
Anyway, looking at Table 3 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869035/table/T3/) it seems that the 'Awazim are mostly J1-M267 (73%) and E-M123 (24%), in that order... An interesting combination since J-M267 and E-M123 have very similar frequencies overall and seem to have expanded together (a phenomenon I've observed for quite some time now). In fact this is one of the reasons I wouldn't be so quick to label E-M123 "pre-Semitic", the other one being that the authors didn't test for subclades under J-M267 and E-M123 (which weren't available back when this study was published anyway).

So there at least two ways to interpret this:

1- Either the Solubba were some sort of early Afroasiatic (pre-Proto-Semitic? para-Cushitic? your guess is as good as mine) offshot which wandered in the Arabian desert as a foraging group prior to the emergence of semi-nomadic pastoralism... In which case further analysis of their paternal lineages is bound to produce interesting results.
2- Or the 'Awazim are an unreliable proxy for the Solubba, in the sense that they have been assimilated and become an average Arabian tribe in the process... In which case the typical mixture of patrilineages associated with Semitic speakers (J1-M267 and E-M123) is easier to explain and actually makes more sense.

The only thing which really stands out here IMO is the presence of R2-M124, in the scope of the second interpretation as delineated above this could be a "real" Solubba marker in the 'Awazim... But again, I'd normally caution against making gross assumptions going from contemporary data (which is quite unreliable).
I did actually check the Arab Tribes project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Arab%20Tribes?iframe=yresults) on FTDNA for more 'Awazim samples, with the hope of finding a subclade (or not) which would tip the odds in favour of one of the two options above... To no avail.

Passa
07-14-2015, 02:59 AM
E-M123 and J-M267 are not so related in their distribution and especially frequency. E-M123 in fact is very often under 5% in most populations analysed. Isn't it curious that in this study J1 has been detected in all tribes at high frequency, but E-M123 has been found only in the one tribe of Solluba origin?

Agamemnon
07-14-2015, 03:14 AM
E-M123 and J-M267 are not so related in their distribution and especially frequency. E-M123 in fact is very often under 5% in most populations analysed. Isn't it curious that in this study J1 has been detected in all tribes at high frequency, but E-M123 has been found only in the one tribe of Solluba origin?

I beg to differ: The usual pattern is that we find E-M123 wherever J-M267 (YSC234 in particular) is to be found, albeit at lower frequencies than the latter (not exactly surprising since J1 is usually twice as common)... This is what we see in the Levant (the only exception to date being the Red Sea, as per Flores et al. 2005), in North Africa, and even in Europe (J1 hotspots in Europe usually turn out to be E-M123 hotspots as well). Again, I'd caution against making broad assumptions from these results, not just because we're dealing with contemporary populations but also because nomadic groups aren't very diverse in general (in fact, that's something the study's authors explicitely state).

If the first interpretation is correct then we must also conclude that J-M267 was also originally carried by Arabian foragers, there really isn't a scenario without implications for J1 here (and the same counts the other way around), at least judging from the data.

paulgill
07-14-2015, 03:25 AM
Agamemnon was wondering about Solluba's Y-DNA makeup. Here is what I found.

"Samples for DNA analysis were collected from volunteers from the Adnani tribes of Al-Aniza, Mutran and Awazim (a Suluba tribe), and the Qahtani tribes of Ajman, Shimar and Murrah. This selection is representative of the most prominent tribes of Adnani and Qahtani lineages of Arabia. Results from the sample were compared with data from other populations derived from the literature."

"The Awazim stand out because of their high frequency of haplogroup E-M123 (24.3 %), the highest yet reported in any population. The highest frequency reported previously (23.5 %) was in Ethiopians from Amhara (Cruciani et al., 2004). The Awazim also showed the presence of haplogroup R2 (R-M124), characteristic of South Asia (Sengupta et al., 2006). There may be a possible link to the Roma (‘Gypsy’) migrations. It has also been proposed that the Awazim may have originated from the Caucasus—also consistent with the theory of “Suluba” (Bell and Richmond, 1937)."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869035/#S9title

I think that the equation E-M123 = pre-Semitic Arabians (and probably Levantines) is somewhat supported by the recent Bronze Age Armenian findings.

Autosomally, the Awazim are the "purest" population in the study, with the maximum proportion of the green component, which would seemingly be the Arabian/Red_Sea component in calculators. See here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2869035/figure/F1/

Interesting, Roma are H1a not R2, easy to label everything Roma when enough information is not available, as if only Roma whent that way.

Agamemnon
07-14-2015, 03:37 AM
Interesting, Roma are H1a not R2, easy to label everything Roma when enough information is not available, as if only Roma whent that way.

I agree, the authors also went out of their way by implying that the Awazim came from the Caucasus or that "presence of markers M123 and M124 may also suggest that slaves brought before the initiation of Islam"... That kind of talk is reminiscent of what one can read on Arab DNA forums.
Needless to say this isn't just inaccurate, it's also quite unwelcome (not to say insulting).

Passa
07-14-2015, 03:39 AM
I beg to differ: The usual pattern is that we find E-M123 wherever J-M267 (YSC234 in particular) is to be found, albeit at lower frequencies than the latter (not exactly surprising since J1 is usually twice as common)... This is what we see in the Levant, in Egypt, in North Africa, and even in Europe (J1 hotspots in Europe usually turn out to be E-M123 hotspots as well). Again, I'd caution against making broad assumptions from these results, not just because we're dealing with contemporary populations but also because nomadic groups aren't very diverse in general (in fact, that's something the study's authors explicitely state).

If the first interpretation is correct then we must also conclude that J-M267 was also originally carried by Arabian foragers, there really isn't a scenario without implications for J1 here (and the same counts the other way around), at least judging from the data.

I disagree with most of what you have written, but I agree that Awazim and Solluba in general deserve more attention from the scientific community. I am also confident about the future aDNA analyses on Epipaleolithic/Neolithic Levantine and Mesopotamian populations. They will certainly settle this issue.

Agamemnon
07-14-2015, 03:43 AM
I disagree with most of what you have written, but I agree that Awazim and Solluba in general deserve more attention from the scientific community. I am also confident about the future aDNA analyses on Epipaleolithic/Neolithic Levantine and Mesopotamian populations. They will certainly settle this issue.

I think that's something we can all agree upon, I'll add that more work needs to be done as far as Arabia's prehistorical record is of concern (since it's still quite sketchy and can even be confusing for some).

paulgill
07-14-2015, 05:42 AM
I agree, the authors also went out of their way by implying that the Awazim came from the Caucasus or that "presence of markers M123 and M124 may also suggest that slaves brought before the initiation of Islam"... That kind of talk is reminiscent of what one can read on Arab DNA forums.
Needless to say this isn't just inaccurate, it's also quite unwelcome (not to say insulting).

Slaves? These people need to be reminded that their area been ruled by many different empires for thousands of years before anything like Islam ever came into being, and that is where those non local haplogroups most likely have come from.

Also see, http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0109331

http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/

J1YSC0000190/PF4733 * YSC0001325/PF4662 * PF4773... 182 SNPsformed 31600 ybp, TMRCA 18600 ybp

J1*
J-Y6304ZS3523/FGC20317/Y6306 * ZS3525/Y6304 * F4306... 42 SNPsformed 18600 ybp, TMRCA 10600 ybp
J-Y6304*
id:YF02055FIN
J-M10096ZS64/M10453 * Z2223 * F1369... 3 SNPs
id:HG01256CLM
id:HG01253CLM
J1aZ2213/CTS3068/PF4700/YSC0001264 * YSC0001294/CTS8948/PF4751 * Z2392/CTS7116/PF4736... 17 SNPsformed 18600 ybp, TMRCA 18600 ybp
J1a*
id:HG03767PJL [Punjab, Lahor, Pakistan]

Passa
07-20-2015, 04:19 PM
I think that's something we can all agree upon, I'll add that more work needs to be done as far as Arabia's prehistorical record is of concern (since it's still quite sketchy and can even be confusing for some).

In the meantime, here's YFull data about J1 in the Arabian Peninsula. I compiled a little table:5257

RCO
07-20-2015, 06:11 PM
Yes, there's no J1 basal diversity to the South. The most tested cases from the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant and the Jewish community all lack J1 basal diversity and ancient bifurcations.

King
08-29-2015, 12:56 PM
Yes, there's no J1 basal diversity to the South. The most tested cases from the Arabian Peninsula, the Levant and the Jewish community all lack J1 basal diversity and ancient bifurcations.

Why'd you feel the need to say this? No one's arguing that there is J1 basal diversity to the South. Here I'm going to make a similar post as you, but on the flip-side:

Yes, Passa, J-P58 is the most successful J1 lineage.

With all due respect Mr. Moderator, your post in a nut shell regarding this thread:

Silly, adjective, 2: ridiculously trivial or frivolous.
Frivolous, adjective, 1.: not having any serious purpose or value.
Fluff, noun, 2.: writing perceived as trivial or superficial.
Trivial, adjective 1.: of little value or importance.

And not to mention off-topic.

RCO
08-29-2015, 03:11 PM
I am only the Moderator of the Portuguese language-based discussion section. I think every living lineage is extremely successful because they are still alive just like the extremely interesting case of haplogroup A00. We have more people in Brazil nowadays than in any Arab country and all Portuguese J1 basal lineages have grown a lot in Brazil in the last 500 years and everybody must be respected everywhere. We are just talking here about the structure of the J1 phylogenetic tree and possible ancient geographical origins.

King
08-29-2015, 03:43 PM
"We are just talking here about the structure of the J1 phylogenetic tree and possible ancient geographical origins."

Not in this thread, no we are not. The topic preceding your post was about whether the first Arabic speakers belonged to J1 or E-M123. I dont know what Passa was trying to prove with that chart, but I can only assume he was trying to argue that J1 in Arabia is not older than the Arabic language. Prior to that, the thread's discussion was solely about J* cases (J1-).

Let's entertain the idea that your post was in reference to the "original Arabs" debate between Agamemnon and Passa. Why would the first Arabic speakers need to carry basal sub-clades of J1?

Your post was/is out of left field. Same with what you said about Brazil growing in numbers, who cares? If I didn't reply so directly, but instead simply replied with: Yes, J-P58 is the most successful J1 lineage. You would think that was extremely trivial and random right? My point exactly.

Agamemnon
08-29-2015, 03:54 PM
Please everyone, drop the bellicose tone, we can discuss this without aiming at each other's throat.

The topic is rather simple, really: Where did J* come from? How did it expand? Are the J* cases we know of really negative for all downstream markers?

RCO
08-29-2015, 04:45 PM
I have not read or heard about any documented Y-DNA full sequenced J(xJ1,XJ2) case. We have around 145 J SNPs previous to the J1-J2 bifurcation (formed 42800 ybp, TMRCA 31500 ybp).
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J/
So any living J(xJ1,xJ2) should be fully sequenced and empirically proved.

Gravetto-Danubian
08-29-2015, 04:47 PM
The topic is rather simple, really: Where did J* come from? How did it expand? Are the J* cases we know of really negative for all downstream markers?

My guess would be (to the first part of the question) - that IJ* anywhere between Anatolia and Iran - probably highland regions . As for J*, somehwere nearby that.

As for second (if J* exists today) - Ive not seen any recent good studies on haplogroup J, unfortunately. So if they are found in a literature review, it'll be old, unresolved stuff.

ADD: There was one J* case in Anatolia (Cionnologlu "Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia")

RCO
08-29-2015, 04:59 PM
J* (xJ1,XJ2) only in old articles, but we need the Y-DNA full sequences.
J* cases were reported in this article: Out of Arabia—The Settlement of Island Soqotra as Revealed by Mitochondrial and Y Chromosome Genetic Diversity. Viktor Cerny
http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/f30/Cerny%202009%20Out%20of%20ArabiarusThe%20Settlemen t%20of%20Island%20Soqotra%20as%20Revealed%20by%20M itochondrial%20and%20Y.pdf