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Krefter
06-18-2015, 07:09 AM
http://media.comicbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/seth-macfarlane-family-guy.jpg

Pre-Historic Europe Pigmentation. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=2014570053)
Modern Europe Pigmentation. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JxxjOa-KOd2b5hhQ9DQ9L5z7rxf8WW2MRN6owtf22ag/edit)

By 2800 BC to 2000 BC Light skin alleles in Europe had started to rise in frequency but weren't yet at modern frequencies. They were slightly higher than what Middle Easterns have today. As recently as 2000 BC in North Europe it wasn't rare at all to find people with CC in rs16891982 and AA in rs12913832(Even in Sweden and Estonia) which are unheard of today anywhere in Europe. In-fact 2/2 Late Neolithic Scandinavians so far have AA in rs12913832, while under 5% of North Europeans today do.

About 70% of North European samples from 2800 BC to 1000 BC had Brown eyes, while today over 50% have Blue eyes(In some places over 80%). A very large majority of North Europeans during this time period had Brown eyes. It's quite obvious that after 2000 BC in all regions of Europe Light skin alleles rose in frequency, and in North Europe Blue eyes rose in frequency. This was a widespread change.

BTW, here's where I think certain Pigmentation traits in Modern Europeans one way or another derive from.
Blue Eyes: Mesolithic Europeans, and after that Neolithic North Europeans.
Brown Eyes: Neolithic East Mediterranean and Bronze age Steppe.

Red Hair: Mesolithic Europeans, and in particular East and North ones.
Black/Brown Hair: Everyone pretty much. I'd say Bronze age Steppe people are the most recent source.
Blonde/Light Brown: Neolithic North Europeans. I don't have an opinion how they got it. I think the Blonde Hair/Blue eye combo(There is a real correlation) descends ultimately from Neolithic North Europe. Steppe immigrants were Dark Haired/Brown Eyed, and picked up Blonde Hair/Blue eyes as they admixed with locals, then I think it grew in popularity between 2800 BC and 0 AD.

avalon
06-18-2015, 08:50 AM
http://media.comicbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/seth-macfarlane-family-guy.jpg

Pre-Historic Europe Pigmentation. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xe9sgt0PSt6cUQ3cYp14foBoaVGsOKZBmmHJoKz0HB0/edit#gid=2014570053)
Modern Europe Pigmentation. (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JxxjOa-KOd2b5hhQ9DQ9L5z7rxf8WW2MRN6owtf22ag/edit)

By 2800 BC to 2000 BC Light skin alleles in Europe had started to rise in frequency but weren't yet at modern frequencies. They were slightly higher than what Middle Easterns have today. As recently as 2000 BC in North Europe it wasn't rare at all to find people with CC in rs16891982 and AA in rs12913832(Even in Sweden and Estonia) which are unheard of today anywhere in Europe. In-fact 2/2 Late Neolithic Scandinavians so far have AA in rs12913832, while under 5% of North Europeans today do.

About 70% of North European samples from 2800 BC to 1000 BC had Brown eyes, while today over 50% have Blue eyes(In some places over 80%). A very large majority of North Europeans during this time period had Brown eyes. It's quite obvious that after 2000 BC in all regions of Europe Light skin alleles rose in frequency, and in North Europe Blue eyes rose in frequency. This was a widespread change.

BTW, here's where I think certain Pigmentation traits in Modern Europeans one way or another derive from.
Blue Eyes: Mesolithic Europeans, and after that Neolithic North Europeans.
Brown Eyes: Neolithic East Mediterranean and Bronze age Steppe.

Red Hair: Mesolithic Europeans, and in particular East and North ones.
Black/Brown Hair: Everyone pretty much. I'd say Bronze age Steppe people are the most recent source.
Blonde/Light Brown: Neolithic North Europeans. I don't have an opinion how they got it. I think the Blonde Hair/Blue eye combo(There is a real correlation) descends ultimately from Neolithic North Europe. Steppe immigrants were Dark Haired/Brown Eyed, and picked up Blonde Hair/Blue eyes as they admixed with locals, then I think it grew in popularity between 2800 BC and 0 AD.

What do you think was the cause of this widespread change in pigmentation after 2000BC?

Krefter
06-18-2015, 01:02 PM
What do you think was the cause of this widespread change in pigmentation after 2000BC?

I have no idea what caused it(Sexual Selection?). The change in pigmentation that occurred after 2000 BC wasn't nearly as big as the change towards being lactose persistent.

I suspect it happened independently in many differnt gene pools. This could be why there's so much variation in hair/eye color for North Europeans, despite being very closely related in the last 5,000 years.

Jusarius
06-18-2015, 02:42 PM
My guess is that as agriculture became increasingly important in the Bronze Age in North Europe, consumption of fish dropped which led to vitamin D deficiency. Fish rich in fat and vitamin D had been perhaps the most important source of calories in large part of North Europe. This change in diet again loaded hard selective pressure towards lighter skin and other alleles that enhance vitamin D storage.

J Man
06-18-2015, 03:06 PM
My guess is that as agriculture became increasingly important in the Bronze Age in North Europe, consumption of fish dropped which led to vitamin D deficiency. Fish rich in fat and vitamin D had been perhaps the most important source of calories in large part of North Europe. This change in diet again loaded hard selective pressure towards lighter skin and other alleles that enhance vitamin D storage.

This actually makes a lot of sense. Look at the Eskimos and Inuit of Siberia and North America. They live in the extreme far north where it remains very dark outside even during the day for part of the year yet their skin or at least the areas of their skin that are exposed to the sun can tan as dark as leather. This is probably because they traditionally had an almost exclusively meat and fish based diet that is quite rich in vitamins such as vitamin D. As a result their skin did not need to turn completely white/light to survive in the environment that they live in.

ADW_1981
06-18-2015, 03:23 PM
I'd like to see a photo of someone who carries only 1 copy of these SLC mutations. I'm not totally convinced. I've also never seen someone with red hair who was not extremely light pigmented and have difficulty processing that someone could have red hair and brown skin in the mesolithic. According to the dates this must have been possible.

I'm not as skeptical about the blue eye results. I've seen many red heads with pale complexion and brown eyes.

J Man
06-18-2015, 03:27 PM
I'd like to see a photo of someone who carries only 1 copy of these SLC mutations. I'm not totally convinced. I've also never seen someone with red hair who was not extremely light pigmented and have difficulty processing that someone could have red hair and brown skin in the mesolithic. According to the dates this must have been possible.

I'm not as skeptical about the blue eye results. I've seen many red heads with pale complexion and brown eyes.

Anything is possible. Red heads with dark skin surely could have existed during the Mesolithic and later Neolithic. It was a different world back then.

J Man
06-18-2015, 03:50 PM
I have a feeling that quite a few hazel (green-brown) eyed people probably existed in Northern Europe during the Neolithic as well as the result of matings between blue eyed hunter-gatherers and brown eyed farmers.

T101
06-18-2015, 03:51 PM
Anything is possible. Red heads with dark skin surely could have existed during the Mesolithic and later Neolithic. It was a different world back then.

Absolutely. In Florida there are some great combinations of genes. I've seen lots of Jamaican women with bright blue eyes. Dominican women with natural straight red hair and chocolate and cocoa colored skin. It's great. Love it down there!

Krefter
06-18-2015, 03:51 PM
I'd like to see a photo of someone who carries only 1 copy of these SLC mutations. I'm not totally convinced. I've also never seen someone with red hair who was not extremely light pigmented and have difficulty processing that someone could have red hair and brown skin in the mesolithic. According to the dates this must have been possible.

I'm not as skeptical about the blue eye results. I've seen many red heads with pale complexion and brown eyes.

Redheads have their own Skin-lighting mutations. Look at redheads from the Middle East.

Here's the skin tone of someone who has rs1426654 AG and rs16891982 CG and is 90% European. I doubt rs16891982 makes much of an effect on its own. LN/BA Europeans were certainly typically Light skinned, it's just if anything they were darker than their descendants.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4943&stc=1

surbakhunWeesste
06-18-2015, 05:25 PM
I'm not totally convinced. I've also never seen someone with red hair who was not extremely light pigmented and have difficulty processing that someone could have red hair and brown skin in the mesolithic.
I'm not as skeptical about the blue eye results. I've seen many red heads with pale complexion and brown eyes.


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/450782243926707246/

https://instagram.com/p/0iUFrVAlFa/

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/70217000/jpg/_70217627_redheaddays2624.jpg

http://www.curly-hair-styles-magazine.com/images/my-5-year-old-daughter-naturally-redhead-and-naturally-curly-21292383.jpg

alan
06-19-2015, 08:30 AM
I have noticed in Ireland and Scotland redheads strongly tend to have wavy and even loosely curly hair. Then again in Ireland loosely wavy - not tightly curled hair - is very common and dead straight is not as common. The slightly wild wavey hair is one of the reasons why so many guys get it cropped pretty short as it get 'big' and messy when long rather than fall down the shoulders as you can see on photos from the 60s and 70s. Tight curls though are very rare IMO. Domination of dead straight hair seems to increase as you go east through northern Europe.

J Man
06-19-2015, 11:43 AM
I have noticed in Ireland and Scotland redheads strongly tend to have wavy and even loosely curly hair. Then again in Ireland loosely wavy - not tightly curled hair - is very common and dead straight is not as common. The slightly wild wavey hair is one of the reasons why so many guys get it cropped pretty short as it get 'big' and messy when long rather than fall down the shoulders as you can see on photos from the 60s and 70s. Tight curls though are very rare IMO. Domination of dead straight hair seems to increase as you go east through northern Europe.

I have seen a few Irish people in my time with tight curly hair but yes the majority seem to have loosely curled and even more common wavey hair. Straight hair does exist but as you say it is not incredibly common.

AJL
06-19-2015, 04:07 PM
Then again in Ireland loosely wavy - not tightly curled hair - is very common and dead straight is not as common. The slightly wild wavey hair is one of the reasons why so many guys get it cropped pretty short as it get 'big' and messy when long rather than fall down the shoulders as you can see on photos from the 60s and 70s.

I'm afraid I inherited those genes. More than three weeks between trips to the barber and I start looking either like a drifter on a Wanted poster, or the keyboards guy in a bad '80s band.

Tomenable
06-19-2015, 10:30 PM
Based on data from ancestral journeys website - pigmentation of some steppe populations:

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png

rms2
06-20-2015, 12:03 AM
I'm afraid I inherited those genes. More than three weeks between trips to the barber and I start looking either like a drifter on a Wanted poster, or the keyboards guy in a bad '80s band.

My hair is pretty straight like a haystack until it gets about shoulder length, then it gets wavy at the ends, kind of like the little redheaded girl on the left in post #11 above. I only discovered that because I had long hair back in the 1970s when most of us guys had long hair. My youngest brother has very wavy hair, however.

Krefter
07-03-2015, 10:25 PM
Based on data from ancestral journeys website - pigmentation of some steppe populations:

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png

http://s4.postimg.org/5gjpqzz31/Steppe_Phenotypes.png

None of the Tarim samples are listed as Red haired on Jean's site.

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/silkroaddna.shtml

glentane
07-04-2015, 10:14 PM
Any takers for blue-eyed and swarthy?

http://latijereta.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/george-best.jpg
http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_article_l/public/sn-blueeyed.jpg?itok=dxfE8mqY
"George, where did it all go wrong?"
I like the way the artist copied his asymmetrical eyebrows exactly.

Belated addition: Somebody else (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1958-7-000-Year-Old-Human-Bones-Suggest-New-Date-for-Light-Skin-Gene&p=29073&viewfull=1#post29073) noticed this way back!

glentane
07-04-2015, 10:36 PM
I'm afraid I inherited those genes. More than three weeks between trips to the barber and I start looking either like a drifter on a Wanted poster, or the keyboards guy in a bad '80s band.
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/003499593/3336742543_gingers_myth_vs_fact_xlarge.jpeg

avalon
07-05-2015, 09:03 PM
Any takers for blue-eyed and swarthy?

http://latijereta.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/george-best.jpg
http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_article_l/public/sn-blueeyed.jpg?itok=dxfE8mqY
"George, where did it all go wrong?"
I like the way the artist copied his asymmetrical eyebrows exactly.

Belated addition: Somebody else (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1958-7-000-Year-Old-Human-Bones-Suggest-New-Date-for-Light-Skin-Gene&p=29073&viewfull=1#post29073) noticed this way back!

Georgie Best - the Belfast Boy! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XemxPtm70wM) :)

I have wondered about the European hunters that were supposedly dark skinned. Were they relatively swarthy like the reconstruction we see above or was it a darker, African like skin tone?

alan
07-05-2015, 10:46 PM
Any takers for blue-eyed and swarthy?

http://latijereta.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/george-best.jpg
http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/styles/thumb_article_l/public/sn-blueeyed.jpg?itok=dxfE8mqY
"George, where did it all go wrong?"
I like the way the artist copied his asymmetrical eyebrows exactly.

Belated addition: Somebody else (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1958-7-000-Year-Old-Human-Bones-Suggest-New-Date-for-Light-Skin-Gene&p=29073&viewfull=1#post29073) noticed this way back!

Think the very dark hair and stubble is giving a false impression he is swarthy. If you put blonde hair and stubble on him with that skin tone you would see his skin is not darker than many golden tanned nordic blonde types. Its just that he has an fairly unusual combo of black hair, blue eyes and tanned skin but his skin is not really dark at all if you look closely and compare it to tanned Germanic blonde people.

glentane
07-07-2015, 08:31 AM
... was it a darker, African like skin tone?
Well that's it. There's Africans and .. Africans. Maybe somewhere around the colour of people directly across the Med from Spain? Or like the Khoikhoi and San?
As I understand it, Berber antecedents were already in-situ by 10k BP (but that's not an argument I want to get into, it seems to send people crazy, and I'm definitely not associating Old George from La Brana with them).

http://kooxda.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Zinedine-Zidane-the-champions.jpg

glentane
07-07-2015, 08:38 AM
Think the very dark hair and stubble is giving a false impression he is swarthy.
Very true. I was just a bit amused by the eyebrows. I have a sneaking suspicion the reconstruction artist was briefed "You know, kind of like a dark-skinned Irishman with blue eyes", and may have googled for images of just that.

avalon
07-22-2015, 03:44 PM
This is from a post in another thread which seemed more appropriate here.


Yep, that is what frequencies of pigmentation SNP's indicate. The cline is quite smooth in most areas of Europe, exceptions are where you'd expect (like Mordovians to Chuvash in Russia) for the most part. The Cornish of 1000genomes seem to differ from rest of the GBR sample which is more unexpected, but that may just be a sample size issue. The Scottish sample which is used in many academic studies including the recent Reich lab papers is from the same set, and comprises just four individuals.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o21/Kadu_album/GeneticPigm.jpg

I recall that the old anthropology sources from the 1860s/70s noted that the Cornish had some of the highest frequencies of dark eyes and dark hair in Southern Britain so there may be something to that pigmentation map.

Not that physical anthropology should be taken too seriously!

ljvisintainer
08-03-2015, 10:52 AM
There are a few aboriginal tribes in Australia with the red hair dark skin coloring, although rare they are considered outcast.

can't_lurk_no_mo'
08-03-2015, 05:00 PM
According to the genes listed here and 23andMe for pigmented skin, I should be pigmented like Sheamus off of WWE, but instead my complexion is more like someone from the Middle East, for which people often confuse me. There are more skin pigment genes we don't know about, and I don't think we have enough data to estimate ancient people's pigmentation.

Krefter
08-03-2015, 05:23 PM
According to the genes listed here and 23andMe for pigmented skin, I should be pigmented like Sheamus off of WWE, but instead my complexion is more like someone from the Middle East, for which people often confuse me. There are more skin pigment genes we don't know about, and I don't think we have enough data to estimate ancient people's pigmentation.

Do you have Red Hair mutations? In terms of Light-skin, almost all Europeans have the same mutations. And there defiantly needs to be more research on that.

can't_lurk_no_mo'
08-03-2015, 05:36 PM
No, I don't have red hair mutations. My genes indicate dark hair, and I have black hair.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 06:14 PM
Think the very dark hair and stubble is giving a false impression he is swarthy. If you put blonde hair and stubble on him with that skin tone you would see his skin is not darker than many golden tanned nordic blonde types. Its just that he has an fairly unusual combo of black hair, blue eyes and tanned skin but his skin is not really dark at all if you look closely and compare it to tanned Germanic blonde people.


Very true. I was just a bit amused by the eyebrows. I have a sneaking suspicion the reconstruction artist was briefed "You know, kind of like a dark-skinned Irishman with blue eyes", and may have googled for images of just that.


I don't know. To me he is swarthy, as 4 of my uncles are blue eyed and another segment of my family has been green-eyed for 4-5 generations; I see him as swarthy, not very different to my own skin tone. I actually think the black hair/light eyes has the opposite effect. If you are fairer, and have jet black hair, a beard gives the illusion that you are lighter skinned. When/if you shave your skin may look lighter OR darker (depending on what your skin tone really is)... and with stubble you almost always look darker. The eye color stands out to me NOT because of his hair color, but because of his skin tone. In my experience I rarely notice the color of a "white" person's eyes, they don't stand out that much; but someone swarthy or darker, light eyes pop out at you, because of the contrast to the skin tone. I have 3 Albino relatives, and while it's an extreme comparison, if you put them next to this man the difference is obvious. I don't know the nationality of the man in the photo, but I would have assumed Arab, Irani, Eastern Europe, Greek or Central Asian over anything in Western/Northern Europe.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 06:17 PM
Do you have Red Hair mutations? In terms of Light-skin, almost all Europeans have the same mutations. And there defiantly needs to be more research on that.

I have 2 aunts (well my mother's 1st cousins) who are red-heads with blue eyes, what is the cause of this mutation in a central/south asian population? Is it different to the European one or are they of the same origin?

Krefter
08-03-2015, 07:52 PM
Is it different to the European one or are they of the same origin?

Probably of the same origin, but there's no data to confirm it. You might have a Red hair-mutation because of your mom's cousins. Here's a list of them (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dd8i-KNraJsYxgsZlXhX8MR48a4BdZ1tLx1i2mjH_wI/edit?usp=drive_web).

DMXX
08-03-2015, 08:14 PM
Quick aside;


Probably of the same origin, but there's no data to confirm it. You might have a Red hair-mutation because of your mom's cousins. Here's a list of them (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Dd8i-KNraJsYxgsZlXhX8MR48a4BdZ1tLx1i2mjH_wI/edit?usp=drive_web).

I'm TT in rs1110400.

I was about to celebrate after seeing your spreadsheet as I'm yet to find a risk variant responsible to my occasional red beard hairs. Just checked some online databases and it appears T's actually the ancestral allele (99% of the world carries this), whereas C's the derived one (only Europeans and American native populations are 1% for this one... it's very rare indeed).

Might want to update your table regarding that for accuracy's sake.

khanabadoshi
08-03-2015, 08:25 PM
Quick aside;



I'm TT in rs1110400.

I was about to celebrate after seeing your spreadsheet as I'm yet to find a risk variant responsible to my occasional red beard hairs. Just checked some online databases and it appears T's actually the ancestral allele (99% of the world carries this), whereas C's the derived one (only Europeans and American native populations are 1% for this one... it's very rare indeed).

Might want to update your table regarding that for accuracy's sake.

I get the red beard hairs as well, my bother's beard is at least 30% red. So how do I search my SNPs? open the raw data text file and Ctrl+F the sucker?

Figured it out on 23andme. Got the same TT as you. So guess I'll chalk it up to the sun bleaching the hair LOL.

Krefter
08-03-2015, 08:28 PM
Quick aside;



I'm TT in rs1110400.

I was about to celebrate after seeing your spreadsheet as I'm yet to find a risk variant responsible to my occasional red beard hairs. Just checked some online databases and it appears T's actually the ancestral allele (99% of the world carries this), whereas C's the derived one (only Europeans and American native populations are 1% for this one... it's very rare indeed).

Might want to update your table regarding that for accuracy's sake.

There are dozens of very rare Red hair variants, but I can' find the rs ID of most of them. The mutations listed in that spreadhseet are just the most popular. There are also causes outside of the MC1R gene.

DMXX
08-03-2015, 08:37 PM
I get the red beard hairs as well, my bother's beard is at least 30% red. So how do I search my SNPs? open the raw data text file and Ctrl+F the sucker?

Have you tested with FTDNA or 23andMe? Unsure how FTDNA's interface allows this, but on 23andMe, you can just click "Browse Raw Data" from the drop-down box after clicking your username on the top-right of any page. Then, checking this thread out (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3768-Red-Hair-Genotype-Data-(23andMe-derived)) (contains nearly all the variants in Krefter's spreadsheet). Manually enter the SNPs from there* and see whether or not you carry the risk variants for red hair.

Hope you have some luck finding the SNPs responsible. My beard's about 8-12% ginger (it's 60-70% black with the rest being every other colour to blonde, but most of it's light brown or auburn/ginger). I'm yet to find a single allele.

* Disregard rs2228479 and rs885479. No idea why researchers included those SNPs. It should be intuitive enough that 60-70% of Japanese or Thai aren't red-headed.

moesan
10-07-2015, 05:47 PM
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/450782243926707246/

https://instagram.com/p/0iUFrVAlFa/

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/70217000/jpg/_70217627_redheaddays2624.jpg

http://www.curly-hair-styles-magazine.com/images/my-5-year-old-daughter-naturally-redhead-and-naturally-curly-21292383.jpg


The red hairs and erythrism question is very often confused with the depigmentation question, I already wrote about that on other fora - whatever the localisaton of mutation, seemingly recessive, the "red" mutations affect the QUALITY of pigmentation more than the QUANTITY and when coming at the skin colour question, I think since some years, without any proof as I'm an amateur, that the very light skin LOOK is more linked to INEQUAL repartition of pigment (+ nature) in the skin than to a LACK of pigment. So if a "red" mutation affect a genome already sibmitted to coomon skin depigmentation as among most of 'caucasians' the result would be a lighter skin EXCEPT the freckles which are the commonest among red haired people; by trhe way I saw some seldom red hairs people without freckles and their skin was rather ligh but not so light as among freckled skinned people (rather brown eyes red haired ones)- if "red" mutation occurred among people with dark skin, it tends to lighten SLIGHTLY the skin but doesn't produce a "white" skin;

that said, I saw pictures here and there: don't confuse global selection for lighter skin tending to accumulate mutations, and the results of modern crossings producing all kinds of results concerning hair, eyes and skin, according to hazard crossing-overs. That said I red somewhere the "red" mutation among Antilles people of mixed origin (afro-european)were all of "european" origin.
to conclude, "red" mutation (quality), as "blond" mutation (quantity; and more linked to light eyes), produce slightly lighter skins, but it's not sure they could produce "white" skin (broad sense) upon a totally dark skinned genome. It's my position today, waiting more knowledge.

moesan
10-07-2015, 05:52 PM
SO the most effective "lightening" mutation for skin producing european white or whitish skin and asian yellow skin occurred without any effect upon hairs and eyes skin, if what we red nowadays is accurate; the other mutations (blond, red) had a limited effect upon skin if I'm right...

Krefter
10-07-2015, 05:57 PM
The red hairs and erythrism question is very often confused with the depigmentation question, I already wrote about that on other fora - whatever the localisaton of mutation, seemingly recessive, the "red" mutations affect the QUALITY of pigmentation more than the QUANTITY and when coming at the skin colour question, I think since some years, without any proof as I'm an amateur, that the very light skin LOOK is more linked to INEQUAL repartition of pigment (+ nature) in the skin than to a LACK of pigment. So if a "red" mutation affect a genome already sibmitted to coomon skin depigmentation as among most of 'caucasians' the result would be a lighter skin EXCEPT the freckles which are the commonest among red haired people; by trhe way I saw some seldom red hairs people without freckles and their skin was rather ligh but not so light as among freckled skinned people (rather brown eyes red haired ones)- if "red" mutation occurred among people with dark skin, it tends to lighten SLIGHTLY the skin but doesn't produce a "white" skin;

that said, I saw pictures here and there: don't confuse global selection for lighter skin tending to accumulate mutations, and the results of modern crossings producing all kinds of results concerning hair, eyes and skin, according to hazard crossing-overs. That said I red somewhere the "red" mutation among Antilles people of mixed origin (afro-european)were all of "european" origin.
to conclude, "red" mutation (quality), as "blond" mutation (quantity; and more linked to light eyes), produce slightly lighter skins, but it's not sure they could produce "white" skin (broad sense) upon a totally dark skinned genome. It's my position today, waiting more knowledge.

I kind of agree with you. I've seen auburn haired people who tan well but never a red haired person who does. And I read an article once about a photographer who took pictures of African American redheads and they all had very light skin and freckles.

moesan
10-07-2015, 06:01 PM
This is from a post in another thread which seemed more appropriate here.



I recall that the old anthropology sources from the 1860s/70s noted that the Cornish had some of the highest frequencies of dark eyes and dark hair in Southern Britain so there may be something to that pigmentation map.

Not that physical anthropology should be taken too seriously!

these maps are proxi's based upon too small samples: don't take them as Bible: these almost parallelic isoglosses are the proof! this is inaccurate for the countries I know

panhudist
06-25-2016, 07:35 AM
intresting