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View Full Version : Dr. Tyrone Bowes of Irish Origenes Traces Our Line to Pembrokeshire, Wales



rms2
06-19-2015, 01:16 AM
One of my closest Stevens/Stephens surname matches had a study done by Dr. Tyrone Bowes of Irish Origenes. Dr. Bowes concluded, without any input from me (since I did not even know the study was going on), that our ethnicity is Welsh and that our "Paternal Ancestral Genetic Homeland" is the north shore of the Milford Haven Waterway in Pembrokeshire in southwest Wales.

Hey, I'm not sure he's right, but it is pretty amazing to see what he has to say. Here are a couple of maps included in the study.

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MJost
06-19-2015, 01:35 AM
It sure looks like your are now able to tie together some nice facts confirming the DNA trails. It all helps paint the scene.

MJost

rms2
06-19-2015, 01:59 AM
Thanks. What he has to say makes sense. The cluster surnames are found all over Wales but all together only in Pembrokeshire, so he may be right. Looks like he did the study before our recent Jones acquisition came on board. I wonder if that would change the results, but probably plenty of Joneses are found everywhere in Wales.

MJost
06-19-2015, 02:02 AM
Maybe ol' Tom Jones the brick layer turn singer.... lol

MJost

rms2
06-19-2015, 02:13 AM
Is Jones a common surname in Pembrokeshire? Tom's answer: It's Not Unusual (https://youtu.be/yca2BCwAnBQ).

MJost
06-19-2015, 02:52 AM
You might see if this is something you might be interested in.

http://www.terrynorm.ic24.net/welsh%20surnames.htm#TopofPage

I was looking into my wife's mothers line Davison, in Wale and Guernsey and found this page.

MJost

GogMagog
06-19-2015, 08:37 AM
Dr Bowes (Ph.D History, not genetics) has an interesting theory. Farmers tend not to move around so look up surnames and see where they come from. Thing is, some farmers do move so the theory can be at odds with evidence. Jones is found all over Wales but Pembroke is a special case - the south has few Welsh, mostly English and Flemish settlers. The north is Welsh speaking and ethnically different.

rms2
06-19-2015, 11:29 AM
Well, I take it all with a grain of salt. My own research tended to point to Powys, specifically to the Wales/Shropshire border area, but Dr. Bowes' information is worth considering. The area he indicated is in Little England Beyond Wales, south of the Landsker Line, but I doubt my ancestry is English or Flemish given the predominance of Welsh surnames among my closest matches and in my haplotype cluster generally.

Baltimore1937
07-14-2016, 01:53 AM
Recently I was poking around my tree at Ancestry, and trying to find any new hint at all about my direct maternal line. I noticed a second wife of a man who looks to have been the father of a girl in my maternal line (from first wife). Anyway, this second wife (assuming only two wives in total) was Jane F. Stephens. They were married in Daviess County, Indiana in Sep 1849.

rms2
07-14-2016, 07:16 PM
A couple of the branches of my Stevens/Stephens bunch went to Hamilton County, Ohio (Cincinnati) and then moved right next door to Dearborn County, Indiana. I'm not sure any of them made it over to Daviess County, but you never know.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
07-14-2016, 08:48 PM
Only thing is, Welsh surnames may not be a reliable indicator of old ancestry, as I found myself. :)

Baltimore1937
07-14-2016, 09:35 PM
A couple of the branches of my Stevens/Stephens bunch went to Hamilton County, Ohio (Cincinnati) and then moved right next door to Dearborn County, Indiana. I'm not sure any of them made it over to Daviess County, but you never know.

The Cincinnati area looks to have been a staging area for going into Indiana, which was officially opened up for settlement in 1815 after the War of 1812. As for the line I was talking about (Lee), this man was born in Cumberland, Maryland in 1794. I don't know who his first wife was (my direct maternal line), or where they were married. But my rare U5b2b2/G228A is seen in early Massachusetts. Anyway, this Josiah Lee was from a Methodist family. I tracked his line back to Shropshire, England, next door to Wales. Josiah and his father David Lee first settled in Switzerland County, Indiana, which is close to Cincinnati. There was a northwest drift with related (and later related by marriage) families, and still later some moved to Iowa (including my maternal line).

greystones22
08-02-2016, 11:20 PM
I'm very late to comment, but I think this analysis is flawed.

4 of these surnames are patronymic, which means that we have very little idea when they became fixed. Therefore we have no idea what the surnames were prior to 1841 of your Stevens or the comparison dataset in the 1841 census.

Does this make sense?

As an aside Beddoe is far more frequent in Pembrokeshire than Beddoes.

rms2
08-03-2016, 12:59 PM
I'm very late to comment, but I think this analysis is flawed.

4 of these surnames are patronymic, which means that we have very little idea when they became fixed. Therefore we have no idea what the surnames were prior to 1841 of your Stevens or the comparison dataset in the 1841 census.

Does this make sense?

As an aside Beddoe is far more frequent in Pembrokeshire than Beddoes.

I agree with you. Like I said earlier, my own research, such as it is, points to Powys and the Powys/Shropshire border area. The specific Beddoes I match are actually from the little village of Cardeston, west of Shrewsbury, very near the Welsh border. My closest non-Stevens/Stephens 111-marker match (105/111), David Samuel, has a very good paper trail that leads to Llanafan fawr, Powys, near Llandrindod Wells.

DebbieK
08-07-2016, 11:14 PM
One of my closest Stevens/Stephens surname matches had a study done by Dr. Tyrone Bowes of Irish Origenes. Dr. Bowes concluded, without any input from me (since I did not even know the study was going on), that our ethnicity is Welsh and that our "Paternal Ancestral Genetic Homeland" is the north shore of the Milford Haven Waterway in Pembrokeshire in southwest Wales. Hey, I'm not sure he's right, but it is pretty amazing to see what he has to say. Here are a couple of maps included in the study.

I would take this analysis with a very large pinch of salt. It is essentially pseudoscience. See my blog post here and the links therein:

http://cruwys.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/a-look-at-genetic-homeland-case-reports.html

jdean
08-07-2016, 11:26 PM
One of my closest Stevens/Stephens surname matches had a study done by Dr. Tyrone Bowes of Irish Origenes. Dr. Bowes concluded, without any input from me (since I did not even know the study was going on), that our ethnicity is Welsh and that our "Paternal Ancestral Genetic Homeland" is the north shore of the Milford Haven Waterway in Pembrokeshire in southwest Wales.

Hey, I'm not sure he's right, but it is pretty amazing to see what he has to say. Here are a couple of maps included in the study.



I would take this analysis with a very large pinch of salt. It is essentially pseudoscience. See my blog post here and the links therein:

http://cruwys.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/a-look-at-genetic-homeland-case-reports.html

I have something sent to me by a project member that demonstrates his complete lack of understanding of DNA very neatly, based on that alone I'd give him a very wide berth !!

Saetro
08-08-2016, 05:09 AM
I would take this analysis with a very large pinch of salt. It is essentially pseudoscience. See my blog post here and the links therein:

http://cruwys.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/a-look-at-genetic-homeland-case-reports.html

Pembrokeshire was a transit point for a lot of Anglo-Norman/French/Flemish.
Some stayed, some went to Ireland and some to Scotland.
It can be very chancy, and a good study of documentary history can be vital: just relying on the DNA is insufficient.

I agree with Tyrone Bowes that farmers are more likely to stay in the same place for longer.
I also agree with Debbie Kennett that the ideas behind Bowes' techniques are not adequately supported by the evidence presented as extendable to all cases - and in fact counter cases have been mounted by critics.

Another geographic technique using autosomal DNA often leaves people with a geographic homeland in the Atlantic, the Irish Sea or in the North Sea (the Dogger Bank?). Bowes' technique at least leaves one on dry land, and perhaps is more dangerously convincing for that.

In my mind, the value is in suggesting specific geographic areas in which to search for supporting documentary evidence: to prioritise a particular area over other possibilities for initial investigation. When a researcher is paralysed by indecision, just being able to suggest that something is worth trying first, gets them moving forwards.

greystones22
08-10-2016, 09:12 AM
I agree with Tyrone Bowes that farmers are more likely to stay in the same place for longer.

Intuitively this made sense to me, but after reading this I am more skeptical. Particularly the replacement rates cited.
http://geogenealogy.ca/farmer.htm

jdean
08-10-2016, 11:43 AM
Intuitively this made sense to me, but after reading this I am more skeptical. Particularly the replacement rates cited.
http://geogenealogy.ca/farmer.htm

My 4 x Great Grandfather was a farmer who carried on a tradition stretching back at least into the 16th C. He lived in Radnorshire, Wales and had a large family, had he survived to see them all born he would have counted 80 grand children and if you looked at a frequency map for the surname you would be forgiven for assuming it could have originated in this county. However his father came from an area of Shropshire (England) 30 miles to the east where the family had lived for hundreds of years but by the 19th C. was almost completely bereft of our name.

And AIH Tyrone Bowes also relies on DNA in his analysis, only extremely badly, in the example I saw he connected three people with the same common surname who shared an ancestor via P312 ?

DebbieK
08-10-2016, 12:04 PM
The basic concept of mapping the distribution of surnames is sound but mapping present-day surnames only tells us about their present-day distribution and not their origin one thousand years ago. Nevertheless, it is often the case that a surname will cluster in the nineteenth-century censuses in its place of origin. However, what the Origenes reports do is look at surnames that appear in people's match lists but without any regard for SNP status. I've seen reports where matches have been used that are in completely different subclades. A lot of the reports are based on 37-marker matches and sometimes 25-marker matches where there is an even greater problem with convergence.

rms2
08-11-2016, 12:49 PM
The basic concept of mapping the distribution of surnames is sound but mapping present-day surnames only tells us about their present-day distribution and not their origin one thousand years ago. Nevertheless, it is often the case that a surname will cluster in the nineteenth-century censuses in its place of origin. However, what the Origenes reports do is look at surnames that appear in people's match lists but without any regard for SNP status. I've seen reports where matches have been used that are in completely different subclades. A lot of the reports are based on 37-marker matches and sometimes 25-marker matches where there is an even greater problem with convergence.

Right. 37 markers are definitely too few. It has taken me a few years and cost me some money, but I have managed to assemble a set of close 111-marker matches that are pretty reliable pointers. Many of them are SNP tested, as well, but I belong to a pretty distinctive haplotype cluster that at 67 and 111 markers excludes out-of-haplogroup neighbors pretty efficiently.

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