PDA

View Full Version : Bell Beaker and U152



R.Rocca
06-25-2015, 01:09 AM
As mentioned previously in other posts, sample RISE563 from the Allentoft 2015 study has been found to be U152+. It was found in a Bell Beaker grave from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Unfortunately radiocarbon dates were not provided. A search for all known U152 subclades produced nothing. For the subclades directly below U152, we have the following calls/no-calls:

L2?
PF6658-
Z36?
Z56-
16515046? 22478765?, 23059272?, 14141192?
13680769- 16347817-
21387964? 13668489-
23505791? 7162203-

Several years ago, I proposed on this and other forums that U152, and more specifically L2 was an important player in the Eastern Bell Beaker province, best know for its Begleitkeramik, or accompanying ware. This Bell Beaker province of course included Bavaria as well as Moravia and Bohemia. It also had a very large impact on Italian Bell Beakers. One of the things that stood out to me was that two papers (Magoon & Larmusea) had both singled out the star-like pattern of L2, meaning that this lineage produced a lot of successful lineages very rapidly. Now, the number of L2 subclades are even more impressive...with an outstanding 18 (not a typo) subclades known, and almost all of them have indistinguishable STR signatures from the rest of U152 or P312 for that matter. I would be shocked if further testing did not produce more than a fair share of L2+ results. The linguistic implication for U152 being found so early north of the Alps, but having its modern frequency peak on the southern side of the Alps, is that these were Italo-Celtic speakers. Hopefully we'll get many more samples in the future to see how my theory plays out.

lgmayka
06-25-2015, 01:35 AM
For the subclades directly below U152, we have the following calls/no-calls:
What about
CTS2617 (14392649)
CTS4562 (15714986)

Agamemnon
06-25-2015, 01:57 AM
As mentioned previously in other posts, sample RISE564 from the Allentoft 2015 study has been found to be U152+. It was found in a Bell Beaker grave from Osterhofen-Altenmarkt, Germany. Unfortunately radiocarbon dates were not provided. A search for all known U152 subclades produced nothing. For the subclades directly below U152, we have the following calls/no-calls:

L2?
PF6658-
Z36?
Z56-
16515046? 22478765?, 23059272?, 14141192?
13680769- 16347817-
21387964? 13668489-
23505791? 7162203-

Several years ago, I proposed on this and other forums that U152, and more specifically L2 was an important player in the Eastern Bell Beaker province, best know for its Begleitkeramik, or accompanying ware. This Bell Beaker province of course included Bavaria as well as Moravia and Bohemia. It also had a very large impact on Italian Bell Beakers. One of the things that stood out to me was that two papers (Magoon & Larmusea) had both singled out the star-like pattern of L2, meaning that this lineage produced a lot of successful lineages very rapidly. Now, the number of L2 subclades are even more impressive...with an outstanding 18 (not a typo) subclades known, and almost all of them have indistinguishable STR signatures from the rest of U152 or P312 for that matter. I would be shocked if further testing did not produce more than a fair share of L2+ results. The linguistic implication for U152 being found so early north of the Alps, but having its modern frequency peak on the southern side of the Alps, is that these were Italo-Celtic speakers. Hopefully we'll get many more samples in the future to see how my theory plays out.

We are in full agreement here, I've also been saying this ever since I learned about U152's phylogeographic pattern. Things are looking good for your theory, that's for sure!

R.Rocca
06-25-2015, 12:15 PM
What about
CTS2617 (14392649)
CTS4562 (15714986)

All of the known SNPs below U152 were either negative or no calls.

R.Rocca
06-25-2015, 12:17 PM
We are in full agreement here, I've also been saying this ever since I learned about U152's phylogeographic pattern. Things are looking good for your theory, that's for sure!

One thing that is important to note regarding Bell Beaker at the Sion site is that the first materials point at the Rhone-Rhine group (which should be called the Rhone group IMO), and then the material becomes much more influenced by the Eastern Bell Beaker group. Not sure how this played out in Bavaria though.

razyn
06-25-2015, 01:52 PM
As mentioned previously in other posts, sample RISE564 from the Allentoft 2015 study has been found to be U152+.

Wasn't that RISE563? http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?907-Where-did-U152-originate-and-how-where-the-early-branches-expand&p=90402&viewfull=1#post90402

R.Rocca
06-25-2015, 02:26 PM
Wasn't that RISE563? http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?907-Where-did-U152-originate-and-how-where-the-early-branches-expand&p=90402&viewfull=1#post90402

Yes, I put the wrong sample to see if anyone would notice it :)

All kidding aside, I just corrected it to RISE563. Thanks for catching it.

razyn
06-25-2015, 04:15 PM
I was just trying to get a RISE out of you. You know me.

rms2
06-25-2015, 04:50 PM
I don't mean to derail this thread, but it puts me in mind of a possible parallel or analogous situation elsewhere that it serves to illustrate. Our first Beaker result downstream of P312 is U152. Let's suppose we bag a few more of those Beaker U152 results before anything else shows up. No doubt some will seize upon them to maintain that Beaker was exclusively U152, therefore DF27, L21 and the rest were all probably Basques (you know the old story).

It won't matter that it is likely that DF27, L21, and probably much of the rest of P312 were spread by Beaker people, or that the Italo-Celtic speaking beat extended well to the west of Germany and Italy.

The parallel I see is with the current situation with Yamnaya and R1b-Z2103, i.e., Z2103 is Indo-European, but the rest of R1b-L23 are Basques.

R.Rocca
06-25-2015, 08:15 PM
I don't mean to derail this thread, but it puts me in mind of a possible parallel or analogous situation elsewhere that it serves to illustrate. Our first Beaker result downstream of P312 is U152. Let's suppose we bag a few more of those Beaker U152 results before anything else shows up. No doubt some will seize upon them to maintain that Beaker was exclusively U152, therefore DF27, L21 and the rest were all probably Basques (you know the old story).

It won't matter that it is likely that DF27, L21, and probably much of the rest of P312 were spread by Beaker people, or that the Italo-Celtic speaking beat extended well to the west of Germany and Italy.

The parallel I see is with the current situation with Yamnaya and R1b-Z2103, i.e., Z2103 is Indo-European, but the rest of R1b-L23 are Basques.

If more evidence linking R1a, R1b-Z2103 and R1b-U152 to Indo-European come by way of ancient DNA, then I don't see how DF27 and L21 cannot be considered Indo-European as well. That is not to say that some subclades could not have entered a valley here or there and taken up the local language, like in the case of Basque and some DF27. If R-L21 splits still point to a Rhenish Beaker origin, then I don't see an issue with it never having spoken a non-IE language.

razyn
06-29-2015, 09:22 PM
The YFull team have been analyzing BAM files from the Allentoft et al study as they find them sufficiently robust to give them useful data. There is a thread about it on their Facebook page. Today they have posted results for RISE563, as follows:

RISE563 Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Bell Beaker Germany

R-U152: S28/U152/PF6570+
R-A275: A275-
R-CTS10676: L1303- CTS468- CTS1095/S8166- CTS1115- CTS8877-
R-PF6652: CTS11874-
R-Z56: Z56/PF6601-
R-Z145: PF6584/Z146/S483- CTS10851/PF6583-
R-PF6577: PF6577-
R-Y3577: FGC6418/Y3577- FGC6429/Y3591- FGC6433/Y3594-
R-Z37: Z70- Z67- Z54/S479- CTS1595-
R-CTS10146: S480/Z66- CTS2729-
R-Y11232: Y11935- S1570- Y11932-
R-S14469: FGC8178- FGC4183/S14469-
R-CTS1073: CTS1073-
R-Z275: Z257-
R-CTS9733: CTS9733/S3856- YSC0000193-
R-Y11785: FGC17188/Y11785- FGC17196/Y12496- FGC17198/Y12497- FGC17199/Y11788-
R-Y15103: Y15210- Y15118- Y15105- Y15111- Y15208-
R-S8183: S8183-
R-Y11178: Y12700- Y12697- Y12403- Y11181-
R-Y4354: FGC20796/Y4353-
R-Y14088: FGC20792/Y14142- FGC20797/Y14144- FGC20798/Y14095- FGC20800/Y14145- FGC20801/Y14132-
R-S18325: FGC22963- FGC22940-
R-L562: Z51/S369-
R-CTS6554: Z148/S489-
R-CTS9462: CTS278-
R-Y3140: FGC12381/Y3140-

R.Rocca
07-01-2015, 12:49 AM
Through Sr isotope testing, Grupe (1997) had determined that 3 of 5 Bell Beaker males from Osterhofen were migrants, and of the two locals, one was only 6 years old. Given that RISE563 seems to have come from that study, I was curious to see where he would plot in comparison to other ancient DNA samples and modern populations. For that reason, I asked David to run the sample using ADMIXTURE. He produced the following:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSFJva2RkakpTdm8/view?usp=sharing

Needless to say, the U152+ sample plotting with modern day eastern Ukrainians, Kargopol Russians, and ancient Corded Ware samples is not at all what I expected. However, it is interesting that Grupe (1997) had this to say about the Bavarian Bell Beaker migrants: "The overall direction of migration for the Bell Beaker people, based on Sr isotope date is from NE to SW."

Agamemnon
07-01-2015, 12:55 AM
^^ Now this is truly fascinating!

MitchellSince1893
07-01-2015, 01:30 AM
Through Sr isotope testing, Grupe (1997) had determined that 3 of 5 Bell Beaker males from Osterhofen were migrants, and of the two locals, one was only 6 years old. Given that RISE563 seems to have come from that study, I was curious to see where he would plot in comparison to other ancient DNA samples and modern populations. For that reason, I asked David to run the sample using ADMIXTURE. He produced the following:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSFJva2RkakpTdm8/view?usp=sharing

Needless to say, the U152+ sample plotting with modern day eastern Ukrainians, Kargopol Russians, and ancient Corded Ware samples is not at all what I expected. However, it is interesting that Grupe (1997) had this to say about the Bavarian Bell Beaker migrants: "The overall direction of migration for the Bell Beaker people, based on Sr isotope date is from NE to SW."


Do we know if RISE563 was a migrant or a local?

R.Rocca
07-01-2015, 01:48 AM
Do we know if RISE563 was a migrant or a local?

The Allentoft study doesn't refer back to specific samples from the Grupe/Price study, but I will ask.

MitchellSince1893
07-01-2015, 03:36 AM
The Allentoft study doesn't refer back to specific samples from the Grupe/Price study, but I will ask.

Based on his plot among the present day Mordovians (aka Erzya) and Russian Kargopols, I won't be surprised if he was a migrant.

5095

Location of Kargopol (top red) and Mordovia (bottom red) and where some of the recent Yamnaya samples were found (yellow).
5098

Jean-Pierre
07-01-2015, 03:42 AM
"Needless to say, the U152+ sample plotting with modern day eastern Ukrainians, Kargopol Russians, and ancient Corded Ware samples is not at all what I expected."

This is exactly the location of the Yamnaya culture, the people that are considered to have given birth to all Indo-European languages.

This is not to suggest that U152 originated in the Yamnaya culture: therefor the spread of U152 to the east is missing.

Jean M
07-01-2015, 01:18 PM
Needless to say, the U152+ sample plotting with modern day eastern Ukrainians, Kargopol Russians, and ancient Corded Ware samples is not at all what I expected.

I would stick to comparisons with ancient samples, rather than modern, if your interest is where an ancient sample came from. We already know that the German BB and CW had Yamnaya input. That accounts for the similarity with CW. As CW and BB spread out across Europe their people would mix with locals, so that the genetic signature of Yamnaya would be diluted with local elements. In Eastern Europe some of the local elements would actually be related to Yamnaya, which would boost rather than dilute that signal. Whereas in Iberia local elements would be Neolithic in origin.


Grupe (1997) had this to say about the Bavarian Bell Beaker migrants: "The overall direction of migration for the Bell Beaker people, based on Sr isotope date is from NE to SW."

Makes for sensational reading out of context! ;) Hate to pour cold water, but Grupe is not actually referring to Finland or Karelia as the origin of Bell Beaker. He is referring to movement from the region of Bavaria NE of the Danube into Southern Bavaria. That fits perfectly with the genesis of Eastern Bell Beaker in the Csepel group in Hungary and movement up the Danube from there, and spreading out from the Danube.

5100

R.Rocca
07-01-2015, 01:25 PM
I would stick to comparisons with ancient samples, rather than modern, if your interest is where an ancient sample came from. We already know that the German BB and CW had Yamnaya input. That accounts for the similarity with CW. As CW and BB spread out across Europe their people would mix with locals, so that the genetic signature of Yamnaya would be diluted with local elements. In Eastern Europe some of the local elements would actually be related to Yamnaya, which would boost rather than dilute that signal. Whereas in Iberia local elements would be Neolithic in origin.

Makes for sensational reading out of context! ;) Hate to pour cold water, but Grupe is not actually referring to Finland or Karelia as the origin of Bell Beaker. He is referring to movement from the region of Bavaria NE of the Danube into Southern Bavaria. That fits perfectly with the genesis of Eastern Bell Beaker in the Csepel group in Hungary and movement up the Danube from there, and spreading out from the Danube.

Not at all, I read it the same way that you did. In my mind, slightly NE is still pretty significant to slightly SW (in the direction of Iberia and the Southern Alps). Also, I think there may be significant implications for the Begleitkeramik versus the earlier Iberian Bell Beaker derived expansions.

Jean M
07-01-2015, 01:35 PM
Not at all, I read it the same way that you did. In my mind, slightly NE is still pretty significant to slightly SW (in the direction of Iberia and the Southern Alps). Also, I think there may be significant implications for the Begleitkeramik versus the earlier Iberian Bell Beaker derived expansions.

We already know from the Begleitkeramik and other specific indicators of Eastern BB in which directions Eastern BB moved. That included an incursion into the Iberian eastern Meseta, which I argue was the origin of Celtiberian. It is lovely to have isotope results when we can get them. But to be honest I'd rather have aDNA. I think the U152 result in German BB is a milestone. It requires a rethink of suppositions on its origins.

[Added] I did not put arrows from Eastern BB to the southern Alps on my revised BB map, just to avoid it becoming impossibly cluttered, but I refer to the upheaval at Sion in the text.

Piquerobi
07-01-2015, 01:39 PM
A close-up pic of that most interesting plot:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2hebl3b.jpg

R.Rocca
07-01-2015, 02:00 PM
We already know from the Begleitkeramik and other specific indicators of Eastern BB in which directions Eastern BB moved. That included an incursion into the Iberian eastern Meseta, which I argue was the origin of Celtiberian. It is lovely to have isotope results when we can get them. But to be honest I'd rather have aDNA. I think the U152 result in German BB is a milestone. It requires a rethink of suppositions on its origins.

[Added] I did not put arrows from Eastern BB to the southern Alps on my revised BB map, just to avoid it becoming impossibly cluttered, but I refer to the upheaval at Sion in the text.

I was just about to post about that. In Italy, there are some Iberian BB influences, but the real big push seems to come from the BB East ~2450 BC. From Lemercier 2003...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Lemercier_Begleitkeramik.png

Silesian
07-01-2015, 02:53 PM
A close-up pic of that most interesting plot:

http://i60.tinypic.com/2hebl3b.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253976/table/tbl2/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253976/

Hotspots for R1b. Pinega 14%+/-, Roslavl 11%+/-
Pinega (Russian: Пинега) is a rural locality (a settlement), formerly a town, in Pinezhsky District of Arkhangelsk Oblast, Russia
Coordinates: 6442′00″N 4323′42″E
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinega
Location of Roslavl in Smolensk Oblast-11%+/-
Coordinates: 5357′N 3253′E
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roslavl

MitchellSince1893
07-01-2015, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=Jean M;93666]

5104
This map dovetails nicely with what I was seeing on the geographic center points of present day U152 samples (gold stars on map)...yes I know this is fraught with danger in using present day populations but there appears to be a westward shift as the SNPs get more recent in time.

U152 center pt was in Northeast Czech Rep. L2 was to the Southwest near Prague. Z49 was in Eastern France.


The location on that map above (circled), near the source for both the Danube and Rhine, may be where my own branch of U152 (Y3140/FGC12378 et al) split with 1 group going to Iberia (1KG-HG01777) and other group going up the Rhine to The Netherlands (GoNLx2), and eventually to the British Isles (FTDNA-130589, FTDNA-N115212, FTDNA-268283, FTDNA-249822).

newtoboard
07-02-2015, 12:17 AM
"Needless to say, the U152+ sample plotting with modern day eastern Ukrainians, Kargopol Russians, and ancient Corded Ware samples is not at all what I expected."

This is exactly the location of the Yamnaya culture, the people that are considered to have given birth to all Indo-European languages.

This is not to suggest that U152 originated in the Yamnaya culture: therefor the spread of U152 to the east is missing.

This is far from true and at this point looks ridiculously wrong.

newtoboard
07-02-2015, 12:21 AM
I would stick to comparisons with ancient samples, rather than modern, if your interest is where an ancient sample came from. We already know that the German BB and CW had Yamnaya input. That accounts for the similarity with CW. As CW and BB spread out across Europe their people would mix with locals, so that the genetic signature of Yamnaya would be diluted with local elements. In Eastern Europe some of the local elements would actually be related to Yamnaya, which would boost rather than dilute that signal. Whereas in Iberia local elements would be Neolithic in origin.



Makes for sensational reading out of context! ;) Hate to pour cold water, but Grupe is not actually referring to Finland or Karelia as the origin of Bell Beaker. He is referring to movement from the region of Bavaria NE of the Danube into Southern Bavaria. That fits perfectly with the genesis of Eastern Bell Beaker in the Csepel group in Hungary and movement up the Danube from there, and spreading out from the Danube.

5100

How do we know this? Not through y dna. CW probably formed from Dnieper Donets and/or the GAC. So this contribution to CW was maternal? Actually that seems likely especially given how dominant Abashevo men likely were. But probably didn't play a role in the formation of CW.

nuadha
07-02-2015, 02:19 AM
I don't mean to derail this thread, but it puts me in mind of a possible parallel or analogous situation elsewhere that it serves to illustrate. Our first Beaker result downstream of P312 is U152. Let's suppose we bag a few more of those Beaker U152 results before anything else shows up. No doubt some will seize upon them to maintain that Beaker was exclusively U152, therefore DF27, L21 and the rest were all probably Basques (you know the old story).

It won't matter that it is likely that DF27, L21, and probably much of the rest of P312 were spread by Beaker people, or that the Italo-Celtic speaking beat extended well to the west of Germany and Italy.

The parallel I see is with the current situation with Yamnaya and R1b-Z2103, i.e., Z2103 is Indo-European, but the rest of R1b-L23 are Basques.

until the yamnaya situation is solved everything relates to it :)

lamahorse
07-02-2015, 10:23 PM
[QUOTE=Jean M;93666]

5104
This map dovetails nicely with what I was seeing on the geographic center points of present day U152 samples (gold stars on map)...yes I know this is fraught with danger in using present day populations but there appears to be a westward shift as the SNPs get more recent in time.


Is there any abridged map for the kind of sea level we might have seen in the past? Does U152 mainly enter the English East coast via the Anglo-Saxons or could U152 have been present in the population that was displaced by the gradual loss of Doggerland to rising sea levels?

Is there any link to Bell Beaker culture finds in Ireland? Both myself and the Butler U152 on my tree have Munster roots.

The two schools of thought over how Ireland was populated, was either via a land bridge crossing via the Isle of Mann or island hopping via Cornwall or Britanny. The evidence for the Isle of Mann comes from the similarity of the Stone Age Irish toolkit and finds on the Isle of Mann. There is also some dispute about whether Southern Ireland was populated and at some point abandoned before the end of the Ice Age. A wide area in the south was free of Ice.

5106

MitchellSince1893
07-02-2015, 11:16 PM
Is there any abridged map for the kind of sea level we might have seen in the past? Does U152 mainly enter the English East coast via the Anglo-Saxons or could U152 have been present in the population that was displaced by the gradual loss of Doggerland to rising sea levels?

Is there any link to Bell Beaker culture finds in Ireland? Both myself and the Butler U152 on my tree have Munster roots.

The two schools of thought over how Ireland was populated, was either via a land bridge crossing via the Isle of Mann or island hopping via Cornwall or Britanny. The evidence for the Isle of Mann comes from the similarity of the Stone Age Irish toolkit and finds on the Isle of Mann. There is also some dispute about whether Southern Ireland was populated and at some point abandoned before the end of the Ice Age. A wide area in the south was free of Ice.

5106

England was part of the continent until as recently as 6000 BC when rising sea levels caused by post ice age warming filled the North sea.”http://judithcurry.com/2011/07/12/historic-variations-in-sea-levels-part-1-from-the-holocene-to-romans/

Yfull estimates U152 appeared ~3000BC at the earliest. http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U152/.

Even if Yfull underestimates dates by 20% as has been suggested recently, it's still ~2500 years after England separated from Europe.

I don't believe U152 was a high percentage among the Anglo-Saxons as very little is found in current samples from the Old Saxony area of Germany (Unlike the Angles, most of the Saxons remained in their old homeland as indicated by their wars with Charlemagne 400 years after they entered Britain) and Jutland...but there was most likely a minority U152 population among the Anglo-Saxons that traveled with their more prevalent fellow I haplogroup and U106 brethren. So in the U106 and I haplogroup hots spots area of the British Isles; U152 might be of Anglo-Saxon origin...or the U152 Briton inhabitants that stayed in place when the Anglo Saxons took over an area.

Even in northern England where the Angles dominated, U152 is currently more prevalent Southern and Eastern Scotland as well as Northwestern England (historic Celtic Cumbria)...areas that were controlled by Britons and Picts well after the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

As to U152 in Ireland, some of it probably came in from Bell Beaker immigrants from the Low Countries via Britain. More U152 undoubtedly arrived with the descendants of Hallstaat, La Tene, Belgae, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Danes, Normans, Flemish etc...some of these pops with higher percentages of U152 than others but they all carried at least a few with them.

R.Rocca
07-04-2015, 01:13 AM
Below is the autosomal DNA K10 run for RISE563 from David. Looks closest to RISE395 of the Sintashta Culture and some Corded Ware samples.



ID
RISE563


Middle_Eastern:
0.029821


San_Bushmen:
0.00001


Amerind:
0.00001


North_Siberian:
0.00001


East_Asian:
0.00001


Hindu_Kush:
0.155047


Sub-Saharan:
0.00001


Euro_HG:
0.815062


Oceanian:
0.00001


East_Siberian:
0.00001

Agamemnon
07-04-2015, 02:38 AM
It seems to me that U152 arrived in Britain from the Late Bronze Age onwards (mostly during the Iron Age in fact), but that's just me.

MitchellSince1893
07-04-2015, 01:24 PM
The YFull team have been analyzing BAM files from the Allentoft et al study as they find them sufficiently robust to give them useful data. There is a thread about it on their Facebook page. Today they have posted results for RISE563, as follows:

RISE563 Osterhofen-Altenmarkt Bell Beaker Germany

R-U152: S28/U152/PF6570+
R-A275: A275-
R-CTS10676: L1303- CTS468- CTS1095/S8166- CTS1115- CTS8877-
R-PF6652: CTS11874-
R-Z56: Z56/PF6601-
R-Z145: PF6584/Z146/S483- CTS10851/PF6583-
R-PF6577: PF6577-
R-Y3577: FGC6418/Y3577- FGC6429/Y3591- FGC6433/Y3594-
R-Z37: Z70- Z67- Z54/S479- CTS1595-
R-CTS10146: S480/Z66- CTS2729-
R-Y11232: Y11935- S1570- Y11932-
R-S14469: FGC8178- FGC4183/S14469-
R-CTS1073: CTS1073-
R-Z275: Z257-
R-CTS9733: CTS9733/S3856- YSC0000193-
R-Y11785: FGC17188/Y11785- FGC17196/Y12496- FGC17198/Y12497- FGC17199/Y11788-
R-Y15103: Y15210- Y15118- Y15105- Y15111- Y15208-
R-S8183: S8183-
R-Y11178: Y12700- Y12697- Y12403- Y11181-
R-Y4354: FGC20796/Y4353-
R-Y14088: FGC20792/Y14142- FGC20797/Y14144- FGC20798/Y14095- FGC20800/Y14145- FGC20801/Y14132-
R-S18325: FGC22963- FGC22940-
R-L562: Z51/S369-
R-CTS6554: Z148/S489-
R-CTS9462: CTS278-
R-Y3140: FGC12381/Y3140-

There is no radiocarbon dating yet for RISE563. As RISE563 is currently shown negative for all known U152 subgroups he may have lived close in time to the formation of U152

Yfull dates for U152 http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-U152/

Formed 4600 ybp (95% CI 5000<-> 4300 ybp)
TMRCA 4600 ybp (95% CI 5200 <-> 4000 ybp)

Solothurn
09-14-2015, 04:17 PM
Have any answers come back as to whether RISE563 was local or a migrant?

R.Rocca
09-14-2015, 05:23 PM
Have any answers come back as to whether RISE563 was local or a migrant?

Yes he was, see here... http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4931-R1b-Bell-Beakers-Autosomal-and-Maternal-DNA&p=95901&viewfull=1#post95901

Heber
09-14-2015, 05:31 PM
Yes he was, see here... http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4931-R1b-Bell-Beakers-Autosomal-and-Maternal-DNA&p=95901&viewfull=1#post95901

2/3 samples are H and "one thing of interest is that 4 of the 5 mtDNA haplogroup H samples look more "Western European". Interesting.

Solothurn
09-14-2015, 05:47 PM
Thanks Rich

On sample RISE563 it states 'very eastern, could pass for Corded Ware'.
Could this push an U152 origin further East, possibly closer to the Volga region or not? :behindsofa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#Corded_Ware_culture


RISE563 mtDNA of K1c1, there are UK samples but also samples from Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Finland etc.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K?iframe=mtresults

(https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K?iframe=mtresults)

Kwheaton
09-20-2015, 11:35 PM
I have been doing quite a bit of research in the north Somersetshire, England area with an emphasis on Stogursey. Anyway I thought you might enjoy this circular "pixie mound" Or "Wick Barrow." This drawing and photos were done back in 1907 so out of copyright. Also this little video has a brief film that is being screened next month in Italy https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqd7RJO57yM


5975

5976

And in spite of maps showing a dearth of Roman settlements in the area one of the larger hoards of Roman coins was found in Stogursey. Including 1,097 basal silver radiates, 50 copper allow coins and pottery vessel remains dating from 276 CE

kinman
09-21-2015, 06:27 PM
I'm not sure what they meant by "very" eastern, but even the Ukraine or Romania would seem too far eastern to me. I have been predicting (in other threads) that U152 originated in northern Austria about 4900 years ago.
I am now going to "stick my neck out" and narrow that down to northeastern Austria, probably between Vienna and Bratislava. As for the timing, I am going to stick with 4900 years ago. If the RISE563 guy was about 4500-4800 years old, that would give his U152 ancestors at least 100 years to move up the Danube to Germany.
--------------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thanks Rich

On sample RISE563 it states 'very eastern, could pass for Corded Ware'.
Could this push an U152 origin further East, possibly closer to the Volga region or not? :behindsofa:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture#Corded_Ware_culture


RISE563 mtDNA of K1c1, there are UK samples but also samples from Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Finland etc.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K?iframe=mtresults

(https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mtDNA_K?iframe=mtresults)

kinman
09-22-2015, 12:18 AM
Hi Richard and others,
Since RISE563 was a migrant, I guess that means that he probably wasn't born and raised near the Danube. I wonder if his father or grandfather (or earlier ancestor) might have left the Danube River Valley at some point (perhaps due to population pressures) and lived in the Czech Republic where the soils were different? And then RISE563 could have gone back to the Danube River for some reason and was therefore buried there. That would be one way early U152 men could have leap frogged over densely populated areas on the Danube (although not the shortest route).
---------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Yes he was, see here... http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4931-R1b-Bell-Beakers-Autosomal-and-Maternal-DNA&p=95901&viewfull=1#post95901

R.Rocca
09-22-2015, 07:23 PM
Hi Richard and others,
Since RISE563 was a migrant, I guess that means that he probably wasn't born and raised near the Danube. I wonder if his father or grandfather (or earlier ancestor) might have left the Danube River Valley at some point (perhaps due to population pressures) and lived in the Czech Republic where the soils were different? And then RISE563 could have gone back to the Danube River for some reason and was therefore buried there. That would be one way early U152 men could have leap frogged over densely populated areas on the Danube (although not the shortest route).
---------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is difficult to say. The significant difference between childhood (0.70918) and adulthood (0.70986), with the local soil sample (0.7099) being close to the adult value, can tell us that RISE563 was a "migrant", but it is nearly impossible to know from where.

Kwheaton
09-23-2015, 01:29 AM
I have been doing quite a bit of research in the north Somersetshire, England area with an emphasis on Stogursey. Anyway I thought you might enjoy this circular "pixie mound" Or "Wick Barrow." This drawing and photos were done back in 1907 so out of copyright. Also this little video has a brief film that is being screened next month in Italy https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqd7RJO57yM

And in spite of maps showing a dearth of Roman settlements in the area one of the larger hoards of Roman coins was found in Stogursey. Including 1,097 basal silver radiates, 50 copper allow coins and pottery vessel remains dating from 276 CE

A little follow-up. I inquired about the status of the skeletons at Wick Barrow and whether DNA testing has been considered. Part of the reply "some isotopic work on a tooth from one of the skeletons as part of the national Beaker Project. The results of this have yet to be published. .... recently completed an analysis of the biological and taphonomic characteristics of all of the skeletal material. The latter was part of a project to re-evaluate the site with a view, hopefully, to carry out further excavations." I found the institute which I had not heard of (although I am nowhere as well versed as most of you so not surprising)

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/beaker-people-parkerpearson
https://www.shef.ac.uk/archaeology/research/beaker-isotope
https://iris.ucl.ac.uk/iris/publication/926813/1 Interim report---but does not seem available for download

In any event it looked quite interesting. However in the ultimate irony the site is adjacent a nuclear power plant----as in immediately adjacent it.