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lgmayka
06-27-2015, 05:12 PM
This article, which includes an interview with Bennett Greenspan, is ordinarily behind a paywall; but you can read it without payment by going to it through a google search. Click on this search hyperlink (https://www.google.com/search?q=The+current+price+of+our+Big+Y+test+is+un der+and+like+everything+else+in+technology+the+pri ce+will+fall+or+the+offering+will+become), then click on the top-listed result (from GenomeWeb).

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"The current price of our Big Y test is under $600, and like everything else in technology the price will fall or the offering will become larger," said Bennett Greenspan, president of Family Tree DNA, one of the firms that offers Y chromosome sequencing services. "I think the test will become more mainstream as we begin to offer more features that surround the product later this year," he said. "That, along with a somewhat lower price, will likely make it a much more mainstream product next year."
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Last Christmas, a coupon dropped the discount price of the Big Y as low as $425. Presumably, FTDNA was still able to make a profit (on the incremental cost) at that price. Perhaps FTDNA will do the same around Christmas of this year, then next year simply make $425 the regular price? (That's just a wild guess.)

MJost
06-27-2015, 05:33 PM
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:00GUwZ8Ox5wJ:https://www.genomeweb.com/sequencing-technology/consumer-genomics-firms-hope-lower-costs-new-features-will-make-y-chromosome+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

MJost

TigerMW
06-28-2015, 02:40 AM
This article, which includes an interview with Bennett Greenspan, is ordinarily behind a paywall; but you can read it without payment by going to it through a google search. Click on this search hyperlink (https://www.google.com/search?q=The+current+price+of+our+Big+Y+test+is+un der+and+like+everything+else+in+technology+the+pri ce+will+fall+or+the+offering+will+become), then click on the top-listed result (from GenomeWeb).

---
"The current price of our Big Y test is under $600, and like everything else in technology the price will fall or the offering will become larger," said Bennett Greenspan, president of Family Tree DNA, one of the firms that offers Y chromosome sequencing services. "I think the test will become more mainstream as we begin to offer more features that surround the product later this year," he said. "That, along with a somewhat lower price, will likely make it a much more mainstream product next year."
---

Last Christmas, a coupon dropped the discount price of the Big Y as low as $425. Presumably, FTDNA was still able to make a profit (on the incremental cost) at that price. Perhaps FTDNA will do the same around Christmas of this year, then next year simply make $425 the regular price? (That's just a wild guess.)

I think it needs to come down to about $250 but I doubt if we will be anywhere close to that yet. I suspect you are right and they will just make the new price equal to their prior "sales" prices. In any case, it isn't too smart to pre-announce price decreases. That just freezes the market for everyone.

If instead FTDNA is trying to say they are adding more functionality to the total offering, like making the matching function more useful or integrating the Big Y SNP results fully into their SNP database, that would be good. However, that is not really astounding is that is what they should have done in the first place. .... which means we are finally ready for version 2.0 of a high tech product. Those familiar with high tech know that 1.0 rarely works wells, and 1.x starts in on the fixes. By 2.0, the stuff is more like what it should be.

JWillis
07-22-2015, 12:59 AM
Forgive the stupid question, but what does big-Y accomplish that standard y-DNA testing does not?

lgmayka
07-22-2015, 03:24 AM
Forgive the stupid question, but what does big-Y accomplish that standard y-DNA testing does not?
The Big Y test examines 10 million locations on the Y chromosome, looking for both known and undiscovered SNPs. FTDNA's Big Y and FGC's competitive product (Y Elite 2.0) are now the primary means by which we are extending the known Y-DNA haplotree.

L200
07-22-2015, 04:07 AM
It is comparative testing as well as an individual result. What clade you may or may not share with others, where you fit on the ISOGG tree. You help yourself and others, and Big Y has the numbers, that is what is important.

JWillis
07-22-2015, 07:16 PM
OK. But, why the heck should I care about what clade I belong too 10,000 years ago, when I'm not getting the tools yet to figure out what ancestors I had just 200 years ago? All this excitement about BIG-Y befuddles me. The focus first needs to be on tools to help the mass get a handle on their family trees. Right now, these companies take money and give you nothing but a very long list of people with whom you share genes, without any way of figuring out exactly how you're related. People are feeling suckered. They'll turn on DNA testing unless there is rapid improvement on this front. And right now, I'm not seeing it.

The Big-Y ... just another way to sucker people into paying for DNA testing that only benefits a bunch of academics. But meaningful? No.

That's the common man's view.

dp
07-22-2015, 07:59 PM
OK. But, why the heck should I care about what clade I belong too 10,000 years ago, when I'm not getting the tools yet to figure out what ancestors I had just 200 years ago? All this excitement about BIG-Y befuddles me. The focus first needs to be on tools to help the mass get a handle on their family trees. Right now, these companies take money and give you nothing but a very long list of people with whom you share genes, without any way of figuring out exactly how you're related. People are feeling suckered. They'll turn on DNA testing unless there is rapid improvement on this front. And right now, I'm not seeing it.

The Big-Y ... just another way to sucker people into paying for DNA testing that only benefits a bunch of academics. But meaningful? No.

That's the common man's view.
Next Generation Sequence (NGS) testing has the potential to connect families of different surnames back genetically to a common ancestor. This will come about as representatives of lots of families/surnames get tested. As more people get tested the tree will move from ancient times down into the historical era. Just think how many entries in the history books will have to be rewritten, and relegated to being fables.
In my case I initially did not get much haplogroup refinement. I had already taken many known phylogenetic SNPs; but still I moved to a new branch with 2 other kits. As another person got tested last fall he and I moved to a newly identified branch, that the other two guys are not on. My haplogroup is at least no older than 2000 years old now. As more men get tested my kit will continue to move down the branches. Just last week I wrote my closest STR match to see if he'd at least take my current ending SNP (ZP106). Hopefully, at some point he'll order Big-Y and yet additional branching may be revealed.
dp :-)

thetick
07-22-2015, 11:40 PM
OK. But, why the heck should I care about what clade I belong too 10,000 years ago, when I'm not getting the tools yet to figure out what ancestors I had just 200 years ago? All this excitement about BIG-Y befuddles me. The focus first needs to be on tools to help the mass get a handle on their family trees. Right now, these companies take money and give you nothing but a very long list of people with whom you share genes, without any way of figuring out exactly how you're related. People are feeling suckered. They'll turn on DNA testing unless there is rapid improvement on this front. And right now, I'm not seeing it.

The Big-Y ... just another way to sucker people into paying for DNA testing that only benefits a bunch of academics. But meaningful? No.

That's the common man's view.

Please educate yourself first before making comments like above.

There are terminal SNP groups down to a few hundred years already like various groups under L21. Yes that is way down to genealogical time ONLY because enough L21 people tested Big Y.

But yes for most of us thousands of years is still the norm, but that is slowly changing and the more people that test the quicker terminal groups will be in the hundreds of years.

MitchellSince1893
07-22-2015, 11:53 PM
OK. But, why the heck should I care about what clade I belong too 10,000 years ago, when I'm not getting the tools yet to figure out what ancestors I had just 200 years ago? All this excitement about BIG-Y befuddles me...
Prior to dna testing I could only trace my paternal line back to 1893. 3 years after dna testing. I can still only trace it back to 1893 via STR testing as I don't have any matches. Even if I did have a 67 marker or 111 marker match, I still wouldn't be 100% sure it was a valid match. You need SNP matching to confirm STR matches.

With Big Y I now have a match from 3000 years ago...."so what"? you say. Other men have traced their lines much closer in time e.g. within the last 500 years. Eventually as more people test with next gen technology, my line will get closer and closer to my 1893 brick wall.

I can't predict when this will happen but I've already moved 1300 years closer to present since I took the BigY. Eventually it will reach a genealogical timeframe and I will break through that wall. It's just another tool to use along with autosomal and a STR testing.

Huntergatherer1066
07-23-2015, 12:12 AM
I suppose technically speaking I am an academic but I decided to become an anthropologist because I was curious about what people were up to 10,000 years ago. It may not always be of urgent importance, but it is interesting to learn about the past and where we came from. Tests like BigY and full mitochondrial sequencing are invaluable tools to being able to flesh out our ancient ancestors. I think this scientific curiosity extends beyond the halls of universities and is why we have thriving online communities like Anthrogenica. It is amazing that powerful research tools like these tests are available to everyone, not just academics. This helps people become engaged and educated about anthropology and genetics, both of which I think are becoming increasingly important and do have more immediate relevance than the whereabouts of our ancestors during the last ice age.

haleaton
07-23-2015, 12:52 PM
The value of SNP testing to FTDNA Y-STR and Family Projects in helping solve paternal surname genealogy problems, rather than ancient ancestry, hasn't been exploited yet by FTDNA which has the expenses of running its own lab and does not charge a yearly fee. FTDNA has a large database with samples stored for free.

In the two Y-STR match and connected surname projects, run by volunteers, which I follow there has been waning interest as participants genealogy questions either were answered or not solved and other testing was expensive. Some got annoyed by FTDNA's constant e-mail traffic of low value matches.

The relevance of Big Y to this market is not so much matches, and certainly not the widely shared non-phylogenetically ones they report, but the valid novel variants. Even if only two Y-STR matches at the 37 marker and above are Big Y tested it reduces the number of mutations to a handful which then can be tested a lowered costs for others and trees could be created within the STR matches.

Though it would require IT expenses, integrating SNP testing results, into STR matches with an easy way for others to pay them, might be a business market worth pursuing. It could be a sustaining business, but maybe not.

JWillis
07-23-2015, 05:01 PM
thetick ....

Hmmm. No one ever accused me of being an uneducated RedNeck ... except, well, everybody I've ever known. So, join the crowd bubba.

You guys -over this Big Y test are a real hoot. The goal of the overwhelming majority of people is NOT to find their ancestry back thousands of years on one line of their family. Heck, I have more aggressive goals than most, and it entails taking all my lines back to the early 1700s. At that point, I'm talking about .... what? ... 256 lines. Go back to early 1600s? .... 1,024. So remind me again ... why does it make common sense to lay out all kinds of money to trace one of 256, or 1 of 1,024 direct ancestors?

You're just NOT going to get enough participation in Big Y, in your lifetime, for it to make any difference in truly understanding your overall heritage. It's just NOT going to happen. A realistic goal for this industry?... spend the time and effort to give people the tools to find their direct ancestors back 100, 200, 300 years. Until this industry does THAT, it's not going to get enough people to get excited enough about Big Y to make a difference. And only fools will waste their money participating in that endeavor.

As it stands now, the academics running this industry are shooting themselves in the foot. They sell "Find you Ancestry". You fork over money and get a lengthy list of people with whom you share some genes, with no way to determine how, when, where. The resulting inability to do anything useful with this information is turning off people to DNA testing. I can't tell you the number of negative comments I have gotten back from relatives who I tried to convince to get tested .... "my friend did that stupid #(*$, waste of money, all they do is give you a list". And how about the 70% of the people who have been tested, but are so disenchanted with the worthlessness of the results that they refuse to post family trees, populate surnames into profiles, refuse to engage in any effort to discover common ancestors? The industry is quickly getting the reputation of nothing but a bunch of hucksters, selling a "magic" list.

You expect this industry to attract enough participants in tests in the future such that the results will eventually be meaningful for everyone? It's not going to happen. NOT until they drop the lofty goals of #*$& like Big Y, and start focusing all their attention on developing and rolling out tools to give people what they want .... knowledge about their most immediate heritage.

You people don't have a lick of common sense. Big Y is a bunch of baloney. It's next to worthless in understanding your broad heritage. And it's taking the focus away from where it needs to be right now.

gotten
07-23-2015, 06:16 PM
Unfortunately you don't inherit DNA from all your ancestors. Even with a whole genome sequencing you will be limited in the number of genetic ancestors. (see: http://gcbias.org/2013/11/04/how-much-of-your-genome-do-you-inherit-from-a-particular-ancestor/). Furthermore the size of the DNA chunks doesn't relate very cleanly with time (as it is a random process). It is therefore hard to tell from Family Finder results how long ago you share a common ancestor unless you tested all the descendants of your ancestors and tried to reconstruct the DNA of your whole family tree.

The Y-chromosome is handed over (almost) intact from father to son and picks up mutations as generations progress. The mutations can be used as a clock (for a small but defining portion of your ancestors). The surname projects that embrace the Big-Y can already connect mutations to certain ancestors (see: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Stuart). The time predictions match the known ancestors very well. Although I agree that the default tools that FTDNA provides should be improved so newcomers can see the wealth of information in the tests. A time to most recent common ancestor calculation should be part of the Big-Y by default. I hope that this is also part of the upcoming plans for the Big-Y.

paulgill
07-23-2015, 06:21 PM
thetick ....

Hmmm. No one ever accused me of being an uneducated RedNeck ... except, well, everybody I've ever known. So, join the crowd bubba.

You guys-over this Big Y test are a real hoot. The goal of the overwhelming majority of people is NOT to find their ancestry back thousands of years on one line of their family. Heck, I have more aggressive goals than most, and it entails taking all my lines back to the early 1700s. At that point, I'm talking about .... what? ... 256 lines. Go back to early 1600s? .... 1,024. So remind me again ... why does it make common sense to lay out all kinds of money to trace one of 256, or 1 of 1,024 direct ancestors?

You're just NOT going to get enough participation in Big Y, in your lifetime, for it to make any difference in truly understanding your overall heritage. It's just NOT going to happen. A realistic goal for this industry?... spend the time and effort to give people the tools to find their direct ancestors back 100, 200, 300 years. Until this industry does THAT, it's not going to get enough people to get excited enough about Big Y to make a difference. And only fools will waste their money participating in that endeavor.

As it stands now, the academics running this industry are shooting themselves in the foot. They sell "Find you Ancestry". You fork over money and get a lengthy list of people with whom you share some genes, with no way to determine how, when, where. The resulting inability to do anything useful with this information is turning off people to DNA testing. I can't tell you the number of negative comments I have gotten back from relatives who I tried to convince to get tested .... "my friend did that stupid #(*$, waste of money, all they do is give you a list". And how about the 70% of the people who have been tested, but are so disenchanted with the worthlessness of the results that they refuse to post family trees, populate surnames into profiles, refuse to engage in any effort to discover common ancestors? The industry is quickly getting the reputation of nothing but a bunch of hucksters, selling a "magic" list.

You expect this industry to attract enough participants in tests in the future such that the results will eventually be meaningful for everyone? It's not going to happen. NOT until they drop the lofty goals of #*$& like Big Y, and start focusing all their attention on developing and rolling out tools to give people what they want .... knowledge about their most immediate heritage.

You people don't have a lick of common sense. Big Y is a bunch of baloney. It's next to worthless in understanding your broad heritage. And it's taking the focus away from where it needs to be right now.


That is the need only of a few in the new world whose recent ancestry is unknown. In Asia and old world most people know who they are so they feel no need to get these tests, in my case I need to fill the gap between 6000 to 2000 years before present, 2000 to date everything is basically known. Y Elite 2.0 etc are the only way to know who you relate to and how far back.

Táltos
07-23-2015, 06:40 PM
Posts are to remain civil, and on topic. Offensive descriptions will not be tolerated.

thetick
07-24-2015, 05:46 AM
thetick ....

Hmmm. No one ever accused me of being an uneducated RedNeck ... except, well, everybody I've ever known. So, join the crowd bubba.

You guys -over this Big Y test are a real hoot. The goal of the overwhelming majority of people is NOT to find their ancestry back thousands of years on one line of their family. Heck, I have more aggressive goals than most, and it entails taking all my lines back to the early 1700s. At that point, I'm talking about .... what? ... 256 lines. Go back to early 1600s? .... 1,024. So remind me again ... why does it make common sense to lay out all kinds of money to trace one of 256, or 1 of 1,024 direct ancestors?

You're just NOT going to get enough participation in Big Y, in your lifetime, for it to make any difference in truly understanding your overall heritage. It's just NOT going to happen. A realistic goal for this industry?... spend the time and effort to give people the tools to find their direct ancestors back 100, 200, 300 years. Until this industry does THAT, it's not going to get enough people to get excited enough about Big Y to make a difference. And only fools will waste their money participating in that endeavor.

As it stands now, the academics running this industry are shooting themselves in the foot. They sell "Find you Ancestry". You fork over money and get a lengthy list of people with whom you share some genes, with no way to determine how, when, where. The resulting inability to do anything useful with this information is turning off people to DNA testing. I can't tell you the number of negative comments I have gotten back from relatives who I tried to convince to get tested .... "my friend did that stupid #(*$, waste of money, all they do is give you a list". And how about the 70% of the people who have been tested, but are so disenchanted with the worthlessness of the results that they refuse to post family trees, populate surnames into profiles, refuse to engage in any effort to discover common ancestors? The industry is quickly getting the reputation of nothing but a bunch of hucksters, selling a "magic" list.

You expect this industry to attract enough participants in tests in the future such that the results will eventually be meaningful for everyone? It's not going to happen. NOT until they drop the lofty goals of #*$& like Big Y, and start focusing all their attention on developing and rolling out tools to give people what they want .... knowledge about their most immediate heritage.

You people don't have a lick of common sense. Big Y is a bunch of baloney. It's next to worthless in understanding your broad heritage. And it's taking the focus away from where it needs to be right now.

First my name is not bubba..
Now no one is forcing you to purchase the products. If you don't like the results that is your issue. No one can help you with that. Others here appreciate the services and don't deserve to be criticized due to your own ignorance. I suggest you stop complaining here and contact the BBB to file a complaint. See https://www.bbb.org

yussef961
09-12-2015, 11:57 AM
thetick ....

Hmmm. No one ever accused me of being an uneducated RedNeck ... except, well, everybody I've ever known. So, join the crowd bubba.

You guys -over this Big Y test are a real hoot. The goal of the overwhelming majority of people is NOT to find their ancestry back thousands of years on one line of their family. Heck, I have more aggressive goals than most, and it entails taking all my lines back to the early 1700s. At that point, I'm talking about .... what? ... 256 lines. Go back to early 1600s? .... 1,024. So remind me again ... why does it make common sense to lay out all kinds of money to trace one of 256, or 1 of 1,024 direct ancestors?

You're just NOT going to get enough participation in Big Y, in your lifetime, for it to make any difference in truly understanding your overall heritage. It's just NOT going to happen. A realistic goal for this industry?... spend the time and effort to give people the tools to find their direct ancestors back 100, 200, 300 years. Until this industry does THAT, it's not going to get enough people to get excited enough about Big Y to make a difference. And only fools will waste their money participating in that endeavor.

As it stands now, the academics running this industry are shooting themselves in the foot. They sell "Find you Ancestry". You fork over money and get a lengthy list of people with whom you share some genes, with no way to determine how, when, where. The resulting inability to do anything useful with this information is turning off people to DNA testing. I can't tell you the number of negative comments I have gotten back from relatives who I tried to convince to get tested .... "my friend did that stupid #(*$, waste of money, all they do is give you a list". And how about the 70% of the people who have been tested, but are so disenchanted with the worthlessness of the results that they refuse to post family trees, populate surnames into profiles, refuse to engage in any effort to discover common ancestors? The industry is quickly getting the reputation of nothing but a bunch of hucksters, selling a "magic" list.

You expect this industry to attract enough participants in tests in the future such that the results will eventually be meaningful for everyone? It's not going to happen. NOT until they drop the lofty goals of #*$& like Big Y, and start focusing all their attention on developing and rolling out tools to give people what they want .... knowledge about their most immediate heritage.

You people don't have a lick of common sense. Big Y is a bunch of baloney. It's next to worthless in understanding your broad heritage. And it's taking the focus away from where it needs to be right now.


You should educate yourself before saying stupidities like these. Dna testing allowed me to find my mum. The autosomal one. And yes I was related to a cousin who knew my mum so of course dna can be beneficial. And also when you're adopted any piece of information is a good thing. Go back watching soccer on TV better for you.

rms2
09-12-2015, 02:10 PM
We are still very much in the formative stages of NGS testing like the Big Y, at least when it comes to the database of people who have tested. Remember that in the early days of STR testing, the database was small, too, and matches were somewhat scarce or were based on such small numbers of STRs as to be too plentiful and not too meaningful. Small strings of STRs also led researchers and authors to erroneous conclusions. Take Oppenheimer's infamous, The Origins of the British, which was largely based on haplotypes of six(!) markers.

As STR haplotypes grew in number of markers, and as the database grew, STR matches increased in genealogical value. The same thing will occur with NGS SNP testing, only NGS SNP testing promises to be much more precise and illuminating. Dr. Jim Wilson has said that eventually it might enable us to trace our y-dna ancestors back to the very villages or rural valleys from which they came. I think he's right.

VinceT
09-12-2015, 10:42 PM
^ It may take hundreds of millions of NGS Y and WGS samples, but we'll get there, eventually.

rms2
09-16-2015, 01:45 PM
^ It may take hundreds of millions of NGS Y and WGS samples, but we'll get there, eventually.

Hope I live long enough to see it and benefit from it!

TigerMW
09-19-2015, 09:57 PM
...
There are terminal SNP groups down to a few hundred years already like various groups under L21. Yes that is way down to genealogical time ONLY because enough L21 people tested Big Y.

But yes for most of us thousands of years is still the norm, but that is slowly changing and the more people that test the quicker terminal groups will be in the hundreds of years.

Agreed, this is why I call genetic genealogy a team sport. If you do deep testing like Big Y and no one remotely close to you tests you won't find out too much. You'll be the guy on the island that gets flooded with a tsunami of data.

Its important to recruit people to test from your neighboring islands to test along with you and better yet someone else from the same island as well. The tree branching discovery is derived out of the comparisons with other people.

Most of you probably skip the rest of this message, but for those who haven't seen it:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been looking for an analogy for Big Y and Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) in general. I propose the analogy of Lewis and Clark's expedition to explore the U.S. Louisiana Purchase lands with an aviation twist.

Lewis and Clark's primary objectives included "explore and map the newly acquired territory, find a practical route across the Western half of the continent." They left St. Louis in 1804 and arrived at the Pacific Ocean late in 1805.

In this analogy, we can think of the Pacific Coast as our genetic genealogy homeland, the place or status where our genealogically known family connects specifically to the Y DNA tree of mankind. The Pacific Coast is not the same for all of us, as each of our families has a distinctive location. Lewis and Clark founded what would be Fort Clastrop on the edge of Astoria, Oregon. From Astoria Column, a tower, you can see the Pacific Ocean, the Cascade Mountains and the Columbia River.

Single SNP testing is like flying a two seater from St. Louis and hoping to land in Astoria without knowing where Astoria is. The plane is low priced and reliable but has bad gas mileage. More importantly, Astoria may not even have coordinates on the map yet or a landing strip. This kind of approach is most applicable when someone who is highly probable to be on the edge of your genealogically known family has already done a Big Y test and has built a very tall tower or lighthouse to go with a new landing strip. That tower in Astoria could be thought as a super version of Astoria Column and it is built with 111 Y STRs.

Fixed SNP panel/pack testing is like flying the two seater from St. Louis hopscotching across the country, landing at a handful of small airports and getting out and taking a good set of photos at each location and then deciding the next location to fly to. Fixed SNP packs/panels are a good, low entry price way to go, but suffer the same problem any fixed SNP test suffers. What if your Astoria hasn't been discovered? Perhaps, even your State of Oregon has not been discovered. You also might have troubles if your eyesight or navigation system isn't so good. For good navigation you'd want to have at least 67 Y STRs although 111 is a better long term investment.

Discovery testing, like Big Y, is like having a super high speed, fuel efficient jet traversing back and forth on multiple paths high across the sky on mostly clear days taking special photos of the countryside between St. Louis and the Pacific Coast. It is scanning over 11 million locations. If your Astoria turns out to be San Diego, Long Beach or Tacoma, that's okay. Big Y is accomplishing what Lewis and Clark were doing, mapping the route for settlers to follow in the form of lower entry price tests. Unfortunately, your family of genealogical record might not even be on the maps for the mass migration of settlers to come, that is without Big Y discovery testing. It's just a fact of the Y chromosome just as it is of the geography. The settlers won't go to a place when they don't know where it is or even know it exists.

Only a member of your genealogical family can discover your Astoria and erect the Astoria Column of 111 STRs for the settlers.

I'm asking you to start thinking about Big Y if you haven't already. There are at least several thousand results now in. It works. Pooling of resources at the project/family/surname levels can help.

https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/big-y/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_Clark_Expedition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astoria_Column

leonardo
09-19-2015, 11:28 PM
I tested with BigY and my terminal SNP is 1350 YBP. The man I match tested with FGC. I consider this a success, especially in relation to my interest in the migration of Slavic tribes. By 650CE the tribes had split into West, East and South. Hopefully, more is forthcoming, down to the specific tribes or clan.