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Heber
06-28-2015, 03:56 PM
Geno 2.0 was 150K AIMs and the Geno 2.0 Next Gen is 750K SNP @$199, the same non sale price so this is five time more SNPs/$. I suspect it is the chip used in the Mayo and Asturias projects as those projects yielded a lot more detail than was available on the Geno 2.0 chip. Eg Mayo samples reportedly yielded ^32 SNPs below M222, (although a detailed paper has yet to be published).
Has anyone got details of the new test or chip.

"National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence Dr. Spencer Wells and team designed Geno Next Gen based on the new technologies and insights that emerged since the launch of the Genographic Project ten years ago. Using an exclusive, custom-built genotyping chip, we test nearly 750,000 DNA markers that have been specifically selected to provide unprecedented ancestry-related information."

http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2003825&gsk&MR21280

GTC
06-28-2015, 04:35 PM
I'd have thought this would be called Geno 3, or at least Geno 2.1.

Dr_McNinja
06-28-2015, 04:48 PM
Says ships by October 2015 so it will roll out this fall it looks like. I'm probably going to sign up, hope they give out the raw data.

everest59
06-28-2015, 04:53 PM
Are they going to change the breakdown of the reference populations? Look at the North Indian reference populations for example.

Dubhthach
06-28-2015, 05:29 PM
Alot of the M222 related snp's on Geno 2.0 were either private or unstable. Chromo2 really had it beat when it came to splitting phylogeny of M222 into smaller subclades.

rdegnen
07-01-2015, 03:56 PM
Will those who took the Geno 2.0 have to submit another sample or can their 2.0 be upgraded to the new test without submitting a new sample?

lgmayka
07-05-2015, 10:16 PM
FTDNA's help page (https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/national-geographic-genographic-testing/) implies but does not specifically state that Next Generation Geno 2.0 results and samples will be transferable to FTDNA just as they have been up until now.

If so, the next question is whether the 750K SNPs are sufficient to support a transfer into Family Finder.

vettor
07-06-2015, 06:40 PM
FTDNA's help page (https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/national-geographic-genographic-testing/) implies but does not specifically state that Next Generation Geno 2.0 results and samples will be transferable to FTDNA just as they have been up until now.

If so, the next question is whether the 750K SNPs are sufficient to support a transfer into Family Finder.


The current Natgeno2 has 150k SNPs, I do not understand your last sentence in regards to transfer.

lgmayka
07-06-2015, 09:41 PM
The current Natgeno2 has 150k SNPs, I do not understand your last sentence in regards to transfer.
The 150K SNPs of the current Geno 2.0 is woefully inadequate for Family Finder, so autosomal data is not transferred. The next-generation Geno 2.0 will have 750K SNPs. Is that enough for a successful transferral to Family Finder?

Francisco
07-07-2015, 01:57 AM
I guess so, as Family Finder has precisely 700K SNPs.
The next-generation Geno 2.0 is like a Family Finder + Y chromosome + mithocondrial.
Check this chart: http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Autosomal_DNA_testing_comparison_chart

Petr
07-07-2015, 12:22 PM
The table shows 708,092 autosomal SNPs tested, this is old number, it was 690701 in May 2015.

ChrisR
07-20-2015, 01:03 PM
Crucial will be the sources and cutoff time for Y-DNA SNPs. It is not anymore easy to have a good Y-SNP selection for a SNP chip, I guess they did not consider all SNPs in the YBrowse database.

lgmayka
08-13-2015, 02:56 PM
Here are some new details about Geno 2.0 Next Gen (http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/12/what-is-geno-2-0-next-generation/):
---
We are including thousands of new Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA mutations, allowing for the highest resolution in maternal and paternal haplogroup (family clan) assignment, shy of genome or chromosomal sequencing. The new mutations will allow for dozens of new haplogroup stories.

Regional affiliations will now be estimated from eighteen populations. By analyzing more than 750,000 mutational markers across the entire human genome—an increase from the 150,000 used in Geno 2.0—researchers can now estimate the geographical components of your DNA from double the number of regional affiliations and then compare these results to more than 50 reference populations. Participants can learn if they are similar to people from Ireland, Germany, Lebanon, or maybe all of the above.

We are recalculating the Neanderthal DNA percentage with higher precision.
...
Next Gen participants looking for genealogical matches can now easily transfer results to our laboratory partners at Family Tree DNA and search for relatives across their large database.
---

I interpret this to mean that the new test's results will be transferable into Family Finder.

Heber
08-13-2015, 03:13 PM
Here are some new details about Geno 2.0 Next Gen (http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/12/what-is-geno-2-0-next-generation/):
---
We are including thousands of new Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA mutations, allowing for the highest resolution in maternal and paternal haplogroup (family clan) assignment, shy of genome or chromosomal sequencing. The new mutations will allow for dozens of new haplogroup stories.

Regional affiliations will now be estimated from eighteen populations. By analyzing more than 750,000 mutational markers across the entire human genome—an increase from the 150,000 used in Geno 2.0—researchers can now estimate the geographical components of your DNA from double the number of regional affiliations and then compare these results to more than 50 reference populations. Participants can learn if they are similar to people from Ireland, Germany, Lebanon, or maybe all of the above.

We are recalculating the Neanderthal DNA percentage with higher precision.
...
Next Gen participants looking for genealogical matches can now easily transfer results to our laboratory partners at Family Tree DNA and search for relatives across their large database.
---

I interpret this to mean that the new test's results will be transferable into Family Finder.

Miguel Vilar the Chief Scientist said they will reveal the total number of Y and mtDNA SNPs soon.

Also from the Genographic Blog:

"We are in the process of making the database available to scientists and genealogists, but we are ensuring that we do it correctly and that we follow all the rules that we and our participants agreed to over the years. All of data will be anonymous. I do not have a specific date yet, but we do think that it will be this year, as we are getting closer to that moment. The data will be managed by National Geographic, and applicants will get access to it through an application process and a search tool."

Hopefully we can get some good stats on SNP distribution.

Erik
08-13-2015, 03:37 PM
I don't think it's worth getting. I'd prefer to spend my money to do more research into the haplogroups with FTDNA, or buy some more AncestryDNA kits for relatives.

ArmandoR1b
08-13-2015, 04:30 PM
It seems that this test will be a good entry level test for people that have never had DNA testing of any kind. Who else it could benefit is dependent on the Y-DNA and mtDNA SNPs that will be included in the test. I'm wondering what the reaction to the ancestry composition of Geno NextGen and FTDNA myOrigins is going to be. They include a pic of the ancestry composition of a sample on the page that lgmayka posted.

5576

redifflal
08-13-2015, 05:09 PM
Can one hope that they rerun samples from people that have already taken Geno 2.0 without having to pay?

vettor
08-13-2015, 06:32 PM
Can one hope that they rerun samples from people that have already taken Geno 2.0 without having to pay?

They did a rerun in March this year when they added the latest ydna and mtdna trees to their site. ........its the only company that is correct for me.
I received changes to my trees and also my admixture slightly changed in numbers, but not in the preference order.

Petr
08-13-2015, 07:21 PM
I can read the following message in my profile:


Genographic Results Updated (02-10-2015)

Thanks in great part to your participation in our scientific research, we have gained new insights into your ancestry and have updated the Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA trees. If you are a male, you will see that the stops along your paternal migratory path may have changed. For some males and female participants your maternal lineages may also have changed and are now more clearly defined. These updates are due in part to your continued participation in the Genographic Project, but also thanks to new discoveries made by Genographic scientists about our shared human ancestry. Take a closer look at your results, see what’s new, and tell us how these discoveries help shape your understanding of who you are and where you (and your ancestors) are from.


But the raw data file is the exacty the same as year before - with 126306 autsomal SNPs only. The same for my cousin. The Y an MT haplogrougp is still the same.

BalkanKiwi
08-13-2015, 07:57 PM
I wish they would give an option to upgrade to the new test. I only recently got my results and would have waited had I known about this.

Heber
08-13-2015, 09:47 PM
Good article with comments from Tim Janzen and Roberta Estes. There are hints of price adjustments during the holiday period. New data on the Y and mtDNA SNPs and shipping in September.

"While Geno 2.0: Next Generation has become more similar to other consumer genomics offerings, Vilar noted that the what continues to set National Geographic apart is its focus on Y chromosome and mtDNA testing. He noted that where Geno 2.0 contained between 12,000 and 13,000 Y SNP markers, Geno 2.0: Next Generation contains closer to 20,000 Y markers. The new array also contains 4,000 mtDNA SNP markers, an increase from the 3,000 mtDNA SNPs offered on Geno 2.0.

"I think we will be able to provide the highest resolution mtDNA calls outside of doing complete mtDNA sequencing," said Avilar. "Y [chromosome testing] we will be improving significantly," he said. "As a single product, Geno 2.0: Next Generation will be the best Y chromosome calling, best mtDNA calling that you can get, other than whole-chromosome sequencing or mtDNA sequencing, in one analysis."

https://www.genomeweb.com/microarrays-multiplexing/natgeo-upgrades-genographic-consumer-genomics-service-pledging-better-y

gstockman
08-13-2015, 09:49 PM
Update? Order placed 8/13/2015 says it will ship 9/1/2015...

haleaton
08-13-2015, 09:51 PM
Here are some new details about Geno 2.0 Next Gen (http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/12/what-is-geno-2-0-next-generation/):
---
We are including thousands of new Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA mutations, allowing for the highest resolution in maternal and paternal haplogroup (family clan) assignment, shy of genome or chromosomal sequencing. The new mutations will allow for dozens of new haplogroup stories.

Regional affiliations will now be estimated from eighteen populations. By analyzing more than 750,000 mutational markers across the entire human genome—an increase from the 150,000 used in Geno 2.0—researchers can now estimate the geographical components of your DNA from double the number of regional affiliations and then compare these results to more than 50 reference populations. Participants can learn if they are similar to people from Ireland, Germany, Lebanon, or maybe all of the above.

We are recalculating the Neanderthal DNA percentage with higher precision.
...
Next Gen participants looking for genealogical matches can now easily transfer results to our laboratory partners at Family Tree DNA and search for relatives across their large database.
---

I interpret this to mean that the new test's results will be transferable into Family Finder.

It would be great for a test that's $200 to have enough autosomal data to compare at at least according to other recent statements would provide data to submit to GEDMATCH also. What is really needed in that arena is for Ancestry allow import of other supplier autosomal data as part of their subscription fee. They have the best genealogy front end and membership, though FTDNA did team up with a minor genealogy house whose name I forget.

If so hopefully the following will also hold for GENO 2.0 Next Generation:
From FTDNA's current description but talking about the old GENO 2.0 compared with GEN 1.0:
[Edit this is also on current Genographic Project web page, so maybe they are talking about the new test.]
What’s the difference between the Geno 2.0 test and the previous test?

In addition, participants will have the opportunity to choose to register for the Genographic online community to connect with other participants and find shared ancestry, helping to fill in the gaps between what you may know about your recent genealogy and your genetic results. This element was not available during the first phase of the Genographic Project.

Finally, in keeping with the Genographic Project’s commitment to openness and transparency, your genetic data is freely available for you to download and use in any way you like—for additional analyses, sharing, and so forth. Your data belongs to you.

haleaton
08-13-2015, 10:15 PM
Here are some new details about Geno 2.0 Next Gen (http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2015/08/12/what-is-geno-2-0-next-generation/):
---


I interpret this to mean that the new test's results will be transferable into Family Finder.

https://www.genomeweb.com/microarrays-multiplexing/natgeo-upgrades-genographic-consumer-genomics-service-pledging-better-y

"Connecting with genetic matches is another feature that Ancestry.com, Family Tree DNA, and 23andMe have been able to offer customers that the Genographic Project has been unable to do. Rather than build its own genetic relative matching database, the project has opted to enable customers to transfer their results into Family Tree DNA's Family Finder database instead."

But will they also allow access by customers to the raw data to use in GEDMATCH?

haleaton
08-13-2015, 10:26 PM
Google let me through the pay firewall to article:

NatGeo Upgrades Genographic Consumer Genomics Service, Pledging Better Y, mtDNA Coverage
Aug 13, 2015 | Justin Petrone
Premium
NEW YORK (GenomeWeb) – National Geographic's Genographic Project this week introduced the next version of its SNP chip-based ancestry testing service.

Dubbed Geno 2.0: Next Generation, the new offering relies on a higher-density array containing five times as many markers as its previous Geno 2.0 service. The new service is currently priced at $199, and is available for order. National Geographic will commence shipment of kits for the new service in September.

Thanks to a new array, the project will now offer customers expanded Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA analyses, setting it apart in a competitive consumer genomics market that includes offerings from Ancestry.com, 23andMe, and Family Tree DNA, according to Miguel Vilar, science manager at the Genographic Project.



"We were able to add a lot more Y and some more mtDNA than we did on Geno 2.0 with the new version of the chip," Vilar said. "That's where Genographic has stood out since the beginning, as the way to answer deep ancestry questions, to discover where we came from tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of years go."

National Geographic kicked off the Genographic Project in 2005, offering participants the possibility to learn more about their ancient ancestry by providing Y chromosome and mtDNA analysis using short-tandem-repeat testing and microsatellite genotyping to generate the results.

Since the Y chromosome is inherited patrilineally and mtDNA is passed on matrilineally, the project could assign a customer to a haplogroup based on that analyses, showing ancient migration patterns associated with such groups, as well as hinting at a region of origin for a person's deep paternal and maternal ancestry.

The Genographic Project's offering changed in 2012, when the endeavor introduced Geno 2.0, a custom, 130,000-marker Illumina HD iSelect BeadChip, which provided, in addition to Y and mtDNA haplogroup information, a regional breakdown of ancestry based on a customer's autosomal DNA, with additional percentages of how much Neanderthal or Denisovan ancestry a person might have. Neanderthals and Denisovans are hominids who split from humans around 500,000 years ago.

At the time of Geno 2.0's launch, about 520,000 people had already tested in the Genographic Project. According to National Geographic, about 705,000 people have now taken part in the project to date.

While Geno 2.0 was a significant technology upgrade from the earlier phase of the project, in terms of resolution, it was dwarfed by coverage offered by 23andMe, Ancestry.com, and Family Tree DNA's services, most of which rely on customized Illumina HumanOmniExpress BeadChips that contain more than 700,000 SNPs.

This difference in density also made it more difficult for Geno 2.0 customers to upload their data to third-party websites and to compare their results across platforms. For instance, GEDmatch, a third-party tool that allows users to upload their consumer genomics data and make use of a variety of free analysis tools, does not accept Geno 2.0 data.

It was for these reasons that National Geographic began building the next version of its service, according to Spencer Wells, who established and led the project for a decade, and who continues to act as its consultant.

"It is largely a decision we made based on compatibility issues," Wells said. "The GenoChip was great, but we were the only ones who were really using it," he said. "People want to be able to take their data [and] plug it into the databases to do searches."

Wells had discussed the idea of upgrading the service to a higher density chip already in 2013.

Wells noted that the focus of the Genographic Project has also changed recently, as the effort moved away from its early emphasis on genetic discovery and sampling indigenous populations toward "consolidating and analyzing existing data and selling the kits to get the citizen science angle up to speed." "Citizen science" is a term used in the consumer genomics arena to describe customers who download and share their data to conduct their own, independent research.

According to Vilar, in upgrading its service, National Geographic has also sought to provide similar features to competing offerings, by rolling out improved biogeographical analysis results and making it easier for customers to connect with genetic relatives.

In terms of biogeographical analysis, the Genographic Project had previously broken down customers' autosomal DNA results into nine regions of origin: Northeast Asian, Mediterranean, Southern African, Native American, Oceanian, Southeast Asian, Northern European, and Sub-Saharan African.

For Geno 2.0: Next Generation, the Genographic Project worked with partners at Family Tree DNA to break autosomal DNA results down into 18 different regions, according to Vilar. Family Tree DNA has processed the Genographic Project's array kits at its laboratories in Houston since they were launched. The Genographic Project itself is headquartered in Washington, DC. Vilar said that the Genographic Project is now using Family Tree DNA's algorithm to calculate regional percentages, but that it aims to expand beyond 18 regions during the next year.

"By incorporating more populations, we can separate North and South America into two different regional components," said Vilar. "We will also be able to incorporate other parts of the Pacific, to be able to break down Oceania into separate components," Vilar continued. "By incorporating more populations into the mix, the better we can break down percentages based on the data."

Ultimately, the Genographic Project might be able to break down customers' ancestry into somewhere between 20 and 25 regions, Vilar said.

One feature of Geno 2.0 that will continue in the next-generation service is the reporting of Neanderthal ancestry. It is estimated that most Europeans and Asians have between 1 and 4 percent Neanderthal ancestry. Geno 2.0 customers were able to learn if they were 1 percent Neanderthal or 4 percent Neanderthal, and the new chip contains markers to offer more precise results. "We will continue to do Neanderthal," said Vilar. "That was a big hit with Geno 2.0."

Connecting with genetic matches is another feature that Ancestry.com, Family Tree DNA, and 23andMe have been able to offer customers that the Genographic Project has been unable to do. Rather than build its own genetic relative matching database, the project has opted to enable customers to transfer their results into Family Tree DNA's Family Finder database instead.

"We will work with Family Tree DNA to create a flawless transfer system over to Family Tree DNA and anybody who wants to find genetic cousins will be able to do so very easily," said Vilar.

Customers will also be able to download their data via Family Tree DNA, enabling them at last to upload the results to third-party websites and conduct their own citizen science.

While Geno 2.0: Next Generation has become more similar to other consumer genomics offerings, Vilar noted that the what continues to set National Geographic apart is its focus on Y chromosome and mtDNA testing. He noted that where Geno 2.0 contained between 12,000 and 13,000 Y SNP markers, Geno 2.0: Next Generation contains closer to 20,000 Y markers. The new array also contains 4,000 mtDNA SNP markers, an increase from the 3,000 mtDNA SNPs offered on Geno 2.0.

"I think we will be able to provide the highest resolution mtDNA calls outside of doing complete mtDNA sequencing," said Avilar. "Y [chromosome testing] we will be improving significantly," he said. "As a single product, Geno 2.0: Next Generation will be the best Y chromosome calling, best mtDNA calling that you can get, other than whole-chromosome sequencing or mtDNA sequencing, in one analysis."

In terms of competition, Family Tree DNA offers an mtDNA sequencing test called mtDNA Full for $199, in addition to a Y chromosome next-generation sequencing service called Big Y for $575. Rockville, Md.-based Full Genomes also offers a Y chromosome sequencing service called Y Elite 2.0 for $750. Ancestry.com used to offer Y and mtDNA tests but discontinued that offering last year in order to focus exclusively on its array-based AncestryDNA service. 23andMe does provide customers with Y and mtDNA haplogroup information, but at a lower resolution than NatGeo will offer.

"As single product, we offer the best mtDNA and the best Y together," claimed Vilar. "We have more Y markers and more mtDNA markers and that translates to higher definition haplogroup calling," he said. The Genographic Project's user interface provides illustrations and video clips detailing the routes individuals with certain haplogroup-defining mutations followed. By fleshing out its Y and mtDNA results, the Genographic Project can therefore "tell more stories and break down the human family tree in higher detail" said Avilar.

He said that the project began adjusting its Y and mtDNA trees about six months ago, providing users with higher-resolution haplogroup calls based on existing Geno 2.0 chip data. "Now, with new markers available on the upgraded chip, we will have more markers which allows us to show more branches on the Y and mtDNA tree," he said.

That additional Y and mtDNA information does come at a higher price though, as the aforementioned competing services are all priced at $99.

"We are looking to play around with the price a bit, maybe in the fall; our biggest selling season is the holidays," Vilar said. "We will see how well it goes."

Some industry observers took a similar wait-and-see approach to the project's new offering.

"There were only 126,307 autosomal SNPs included in the old Geno 2.0 test, so the increase in the number of markers tested will put the test on par with its major competitors," said Tim Janzen, a genetic genealogy community leader and co-founder of the Institute for Genetic Genealogy. "We won't really know until they start delivering the results and we get access to the raw data files."

Janzen also noted that the difference in price could slow adoption of Geno 2.0: Next Generation compared to other companies' services.

"The price is high relative to its primary competitors," said Janzen. "Based on the limited information available about this test, I would be willing to predict that it will not sell any more quickly than the old Geno 2.0 test has sold over the past three years."

Geno 2.0 has lagged the other firms in terms of adoption. For instance, while about 200,000 people have ordered Geno 2.0 since its debut in 2012, more than a million customers have opted to test with AncestryDNA, which launched at the same time. However, as project founder Spencer Wells has stated in the past, the Genographic Project is a scientific endeavor and is not a business venture like Ancestry.com, 23andMe, or Family Tree DNA's services.

Roberta Estes, author of the genetic genealogy blog DNAeXplained, said she was excited by National Geographic’s new service, especially because of the planned upgrades in biogeograhical analysis.

"I think this is an exciting offering with the potential to refine the autosomal ethnicity results we've all been craving," Estes said. "This could also be a really good step between standard STR and SNP testing and the Big Y type of tests,” she said. "We don't have any specifics yet on what is being included and I think we are all anxiously awaiting that information as NatGeo is always known for their innovation and quality products."

lgmayka
08-13-2015, 11:20 PM
[url]But will they also allow access by customers to the raw data to use in GEDMATCH?
The article says:
---
Customers will also be able to download their data via Family Tree DNA, enabling them at last to upload the results to third-party websites and conduct their own citizen science.
---

I interpret this to mean that Next Gen customers can transfer their data for free into an FTDNA account, then download the data from FTDNA and upload it into Gedmatch.

haleaton
08-13-2015, 11:39 PM
The article says:
---
Customers will also be able to download their data via Family Tree DNA, enabling them at last to upload the results to third-party websites and conduct their own citizen science.
---

I interpret this to mean that Next Gen customers can transfer their data for free into an FTDNA account, then download the data from FTDNA and upload it into Gedmatch.
Don't know about FTDNA doing that, but maybe to funnel the GENO 2.0 results through a single FTDNA channel and it's FTDNA's lab that gets the GENO samples in the first place. Don't remember if you do the transfer if FTDNA keep's and store the sample for further test (I forget.) A great free thing about FTDNA is no subscription fee and they store the sample for you.

The following quote is promising about The Genographic Project:

"Wells noted that the focus of the Genographic Project has also changed recently, as the effort moved away from its early emphasis on genetic discovery and sampling indigenous populations toward "consolidating and analyzing existing data and selling the kits to get the citizen science angle up to speed." "Citizen science" is a term used in the consumer genomics arena to describe customers who download and share their data to conduct their own, independent research."

lgmayka
08-14-2015, 12:01 AM
Don't know about FTDNA doing that, but maybe to funnel the GENO 2.0 results through a single FTDNA channel and it's FTDNA's lab that gets the GENO samples in the first place. Don't remember if you do the transfer if FTDNA keep's and store the sample for further test (I forget.)
Yes, it has always been true that FTDNA actually ran Geno tests and stored the samples. Transfer of results from Geno into an FTDNA account also transferred legal custody of the samples, permitting the customer to order further tests from FTDNA directly.

vettor
08-14-2015, 07:34 AM
https://www.genomeweb.com/microarrays-multiplexing/natgeo-upgrades-genographic-consumer-genomics-service-pledging-better-y

"Connecting with genetic matches is another feature that Ancestry.com, Family Tree DNA, and 23andMe have been able to offer customers that the Genographic Project has been unable to do. Rather than build its own genetic relative matching database, the project has opted to enable customers to transfer their results into Family Tree DNA's Family Finder database instead."

But will they also allow access by customers to the raw data to use in GEDMATCH?

will ftdna take the negative results as well from this new geno or hide them like they did with Geno2, where I had to download them and demand ftdna to accept them in my transfer.

Positive and negative tests results should be disclosed.........one pays for it

Heber
08-15-2015, 05:00 PM
Spencer Wells steps down as Director of the Genographic project. It is 10 years since I took my first Genographic test. The industry has expanded greatly since then and it is only just beginning. Wishing him good luck with his future projects.

"This is as good a time as any to announce that I've stepped down as the director of the Genographic Project. I'll still be involved as a consultant, and wish them the best with the new version of the kit. I will be pursuing other opportunities in Austin, TX (including my music venture Antone's) starting in September. So many incredible adventures and wonderful memories, but I'm very much looking forward to starting the next chapter in my own journey. Heartfelt thanks to everyone who has joined the project over the past decade for coming on this wild ride with us - we have truly made history."

https://www.facebook.com/DrSpencerWells?hc_location=ufi

Petr
08-15-2015, 05:58 PM
Yes, it has always been true that FTDNA actually ran Geno tests and stored the samples. Transfer of results from Geno into an FTDNA account also transferred legal custody of the samples, permitting the customer to order further tests from FTDNA directly.Bad luck that it does not work in opposite way - if you are FTDNA customer and want to make Geno 2.0 test, it is necessary to send the second sample.

BalkanKiwi
08-17-2015, 08:46 PM
My response from Genographic regarding upgrading.

"Thank you for your interest in our upcoming Geno 2.0 Next Generation kit. Our revolutionary Geno 2.0 Next Generation test has been enhanced to offer the most up to date ancestry available and now has:
-Improved results based on a higher-capacity DNA-testing chip
-More accurate regional ancestrydouble the number of regions and 50+ reference populations
-Improved DNA haplogroup calls and 20 new ancestral stories.
We are currently in the process of making these updates and will have more information in the upcoming weeks. Please check back with us for more information about upgrading your current Geno 2.0 results. I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you."

Kaido
10-21-2015, 10:15 PM
Looks like they're re-running my sample with the new upgrades, I can no longer see my old results.

https://i.gyazo.com/677a0ae60f15023d3b7d18539dfdbb9c.png

paulgill
10-21-2015, 10:52 PM
Looks like they're re-running my sample with the new upgrades, I can no longer see my old results.

https://i.gyazo.com/677a0ae60f15023d3b7d18539dfdbb9c.png

It be great if they do that for all the previous participants. Do you know why they will do that for you, I can still sea mine?

Kaido
10-21-2015, 11:06 PM
It be great if they do that for all the previous participants. Do you know why they will do that for you?

I think it will be for everybody who ordered the previous version, I may just be in one of the first batches. Log into your account and see if your results are gone.

paulgill
10-21-2015, 11:18 PM
I think it will be for everybody who ordered the previous version, I may just be in one of the first batches. Log into your account and see if your results are gone.

Thanks, I hope that is true, my results are still there though.

khanabadoshi
10-22-2015, 12:58 AM
I think it will be for everybody who ordered the previous version, I may just be in one of the first batches. Log into your account and see if your results are gone.

Crossing my fingers.

redifflal
10-22-2015, 02:17 PM
Looks like they're re-running my sample with the new upgrades, I can no longer see my old results.

https://i.gyazo.com/677a0ae60f15023d3b7d18539dfdbb9c.png

I am still seeing my old Geno 2.0 results :( When did you get them done? I think mine are almost 2 years old now.

Kaido
10-22-2015, 02:56 PM
I am still seeing my old Geno 2.0 results :( When did you get them done? I think mine are almost 2 years old now.

I ordered it around January 2014, they sent me a swab kit in the post last week (which I haven't sent back yet), so once you receive that it means they'll probably start upgrading you soon after.

vettor
10-22-2015, 05:18 PM
I ordered it around January 2014, they sent me a swab kit in the post last week (which I haven't sent back yet), so once you receive that it means they'll probably start upgrading you soon after.

did you get a march 2015 update done ?.....................if not, this could be it and not the new october 2015 update as you think, or where you advised differently?

Kaido
10-22-2015, 05:55 PM
did you get a march 2015 update done ?.....................if not, this could be it and not the new october 2015 update as you think, or where you advised differently?

I remember my mtDNA haplgroup being updated this year if that is what you're referring too (from u2c1 to u2c1b).

Petr
10-22-2015, 05:58 PM
I manage 3 Geno 2.0 accounts.

The first test was finished on June 26, 2014. The raw results were in form of 4 zipped files. Sometimes before end of 2014 the raw results were changed to one gzipped file, with 126306 autosomal, 3803 X, 11975 Y and 2872 mtDNA markers.

The second test was finished on September 25, 2014 and the raw results were in the form of one gzipped file, with 126306 autosomal, 3803 X, 11970 Y and 49 mtDNA markers.

The third test was finished on February 22, 2015 and the raw results were in the form of one gzipped file, with 126306 autosomal, 3803 X, 11958 Y and 45 mtDNA markers.

1589 autosomal markers and 645 X markers are "kgp", remaining "rs".

The test results never changed and are available for download till today.

BMG
10-24-2015, 01:44 PM
Is there any additional SNPs in R-Z94 side

haleaton
11-03-2015, 08:27 PM
Looks like they dropped the price for a limited time:

productId=2003825&gsk&code=MR21285&sf14872732=1http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2003825&gsk&code=MR21285&sf14872732=1

TigerMW
11-05-2015, 02:42 AM
Looks like they dropped the price for a limited time:

productId=2003825&gsk&code=MR21285&sf14872732=1http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2003825&gsk&code=MR21285&sf14872732=1

It's really not a bad price for all you get. It is not an in-depth coverage of every branch on Y DNA but hits it pretty hard while also giving you an autosomal DNA package. Actually, it's a very good price if you don't have a specific goal and just want to get into this hobby.

Erik
11-05-2015, 03:04 AM
I ordered it around January 2014, they sent me a swab kit in the post last week (which I haven't sent back yet), so once you receive that it means they'll probably start upgrading you soon after.

So, to clarify, they just mailed you a new kit out of the blue and they're for free upgrading you?

paulgill
11-05-2015, 03:07 AM
So, to clarify, they just mailed you a new kit out of the blue and they're for free upgrading you?

Looks like it, as I got nothing from them.

Erik
11-05-2015, 03:12 AM
Looks like it, as I got nothing from them.

Yeah, same here. I'd love an upgrade, and I'd love it even more if it were free :P

Kaido
11-05-2015, 12:20 PM
So, to clarify, they just mailed you a new kit out of the blue and they're for free upgrading you?

Well I hope so, essentially I received a sample kit in the post from FTDNA, before I could even send it back I received an email from geno 2.0 saying they had isolated my DNA and were running analysis. So I assume it's all part of the upgrade, although I'm not sure why they sent me a replacement sample kit when they already had my DNA.

Heber
11-15-2015, 01:42 PM
Here are Jennifer Zinck's notes on Dr. Miguel Vilar's talk on Geno 2.0 Next Gen at the FTDNA Conference.

"Miguel Vilar presented “Genographic 2015: New Markers, New Geno Kit, and Accessing the Database.” The Genographic Project is a multi-year genetic anthropology study that aims to map historical human migration patterns by collecting and analyzing DNA samples from hundreds of thousands of people from around the world. Dr. Spencer Wells launched the program in 2005 and then it was redone in 2012 as Geno 2. They ran out of those tests this year, in 2015.
There are three branches of the project. As of year ten, they have 75,000 indigenous samples, 670,000 public participants, and $2.1M granted through the Genographic Legacy Fund.
In August 2015, they launched Geno 2.0 Next Generation. Instead of using the Geno chip, they are now using the Illumine Omni Express, which looks at 750,000 SNPs instead of 130,000 like Geno 2.0. They have Y, autosomal, and Neanderthal SNPs on there. They took off some Y markers that were repetitive and added new ones, to bring the total to about 17,000. Mitochondrial markers went from 3,000 to 3,500. They removed the Denisovan and improved the Neanderthal.
The price is $149.95 with free shipping and handling, which they believe to be competitive.
Highlights include Deep Ancestry, with thousands of new Y-SNPs and hundreds of new mtDNA SNPs. Regional Ancestry is calculated on 18 Bio-Geographical regions with 60+ comparative populations. Hominim Ancestry has a new Neanderthal estimate based on current literature. The Y-chromosome DNA has about 8,000 new SNPs, many of which we are still placing on the tree. There are hundreds of new mitochondrial DNA SNPs. They are based on Phylotree Build 16 from 2014.
Regional Ancestry expanded from 9 regions to 18 regions.
In the Our Story section, people are represented by dots. The larger dots represent participants who have shared their stories.
The database will be searchable by many options. Some of these include mitochondrial haplogroup, Y haplogroup long or short form, Y-SNP, mtDNA position (SNP), age, place of birth, maternal or paternal POB, maternal or paternal ethnicity, maternal or paternal language, grandpaternal or grandmaternal, and all demographic categories at the same time (i.e. all Irish).
Geographic Project has published almost 60 papers in the last 10 years, and they have already published 5 in 2015.
They also have lots of projects going on in the field. They have 11 new grantees since 2012 doing field work and lab work.
The industry is booming today. There are TV shows, hundreds of Academic Papers, and internet searches for “ancestry” have increased. Multiple DNA tests in the market are selling for less. Complete genomes are almost affordable.
The kit went for presale in June and started shipping in August this year.
Geno 2.0 Next Gen kits can transfer to Family Finder but not the other way. You can transfer for free and unlock for $39.
They have not updated the indigenous samples but they are still in communication with their research centers. They may in the future.
The list of new Y-SNPs can be made available but they are still testing some. They are about 90% done.
Why Geno 2.0 Next Gen? Bennett says he told them that but they did not accept his advice.
If you have the old Geno 2.0 kit, there are new terms and conditions that the Legal Department at Nat Geo has added to the program. You will have to consent to the new online terms and conditions before they will run the kit. This could create a 4 week delay if you don’t check your page to see the new terms and conditions.
They are still trying to figure out if there will be an upgrade for Geno 2.0 but the best they can say now is that it’s a new cheap and the least expensive it’s ever been.
If you were a Geno 2.0 customer, you will not get the new subgroups because they would have to re-run the sample. You can use the website to look at your results, though.
Is it possible to get a Geno 2.0 Next Gen analysis on a sample from Geno 2.0? Yes, if it transferred to FTDNA and the sample is stored.
No personal data will be released. It is all completely anonymous. All you will know is that there was a participant with this haplogroup and SNPs.
Can you use a sample from 1.0 to upgrade to 2.0? Everyone who had transferred from Geno to FTDNA had their sample retained. If you did not transfer, those samples were not retained per contract between Nat Geo and FTDNA.
21st Century Fox bought the media part of Nat Geo. Miguel works for the non-profit society portion, which is retained. There are board members now overlooking the partnership called National Geographic Partners. The non-profit side remains completely society. The kit belongs to the partnership but the database belongs to the society portion.
FTDNA made a business decision that kits purchased for Geno 1.0 will have to re-sign the new terms and conditions and they will be supplied the 2.0 product. This is a benefit to the consumer and allowed FTDNA to eliminate one code.
They attempted to put all Big Y SNPs that didn’t appear to be singleton, that appear to be cladistically significant. onto the chip. (Yes, cladistically is a real word!)
The Big Y SNPs that were harvested and put on the chip are available only through Big Y or this new product. This will represent the greatest offering of any company.
After you transfer your record to FTDNA, you should be able to transfer. They have to get the transfer mechanism ready.
Denisovan testing was eliminated because some scientists felt that it was rushed onto the chip in 2012. There is not much known from the one sample. They had gotten some criticism for having it. They are much more confident about Neanderthal and have more information.
Michael Davila presented “Products – Meet the Director of Product Management.” In 2011, Michael left FTDNA to go into the Oil & Gas field. Bennett and Max asked him to come back this summer to fix some things. The focus going into 2016 is tools. He is listening. Janine will help him prioritize the items and they will get the work done."

Erik
11-15-2015, 02:06 PM
I just emailed them asking if I could get an upgrade

Kaido
11-23-2015, 06:20 PM
It seems they stopped whatever they were doing with my account and put my old results back up. :rant:

Wiborg
11-25-2015, 08:01 AM
Hello,
I have a Rookie question:
I transfered my Geno 2.0 to FTDNA. After that i updated to FamilyFinder, fullSequence mtDNA, Y-111 and Big Y. I'm still waiting for Y111 and Big Y results.
However will i have an advance to make / update to Geno 2.0 next gen?

paulgill
11-25-2015, 10:22 AM
Hello,
I have a Rookie question:
I transfered my Geno 2.0 to FTDNA. After that i updated to FamilyFinder, fullSequence mtDNA, Y-111 and Big Y. I'm still waiting for Y111 and Big Y results.
However will i have an advance to make / update to Geno 2.0 next gen?


What a waste of money. Who advised you to do that? All you needed was either a FullGenomes Y Elite 2.0, or FullGenomes WGS 4x or 10x any of these tests would give you 400+ STRs, mtDNA and yDNA. Although you could add to it one of these, FF, 23andMe, or AncestryDNA test. So total of one or two tests. https://www.fullgenomes.com/

Wiborg
11-25-2015, 11:55 AM
What a waste of money. Who advised you to do that? All you needed was either a FullGenomes Y Elite 2.0, or FullGenomes WGS 4x or 10x any of these tests would give you 400+ STRs, mtDNA and yDNA. Although you could add to it one of these, FF, 23andMe, or AncestryDNA test. So total of one or two tests. https://www.fullgenomes.com/

Nobody advised me to do it. After my Geno 2.0 tranfer to FTDNA i just upgraded from time to time if i had enough money saved up for an upgrade.
I thought it was better to have more results for an automatic compare with other people at FTDNA. If i have save up enough money one day i will look for a full Genome test.
Couldn't answer private pm at the moment, paulgill. My Geno 2.0 result is R-CTS4065.

Artmar
11-25-2015, 01:43 PM
@paulgill

There is no point in being mindlessly dogged on FTDNA, some people want a connection with their well-grown database for genealogical reasons.

paulgill
11-25-2015, 02:29 PM
@paulgill

There is no point in being mindlessly dogged on FTDNA, some people want a connection with their well-grown database for genealogical reasons.

That doesn't mean that person needs all these tests. One can get on FTDNA Projects just with 12 STR Test, there are SNPs Pack Panels. Can you justify all these test for one person in anyway?

FTDNA wants me to test for 216+ SNPs that they very well know I am negative for, should I take that test and can you please tell me how that be useful to me for comparison to anybody else in this world?

And remember STRs are basically now obsolete when there are NGS test providing you with terminal SNP.

gotten
11-25-2015, 02:30 PM
Nobody advised me to do it. After my Geno 2.0 tranfer to FTDNA i just upgraded from time to time if i had enough money saved up for an upgrade.
I thought it was better to have more results for an automatic compare with other people at FTDNA. If i have save up enough money one day i will look for a full Genome test.
Couldn't answer private pm at the moment, paulgill. My Geno 2.0 result is R-CTS4065.

I took the same road as you did. It just naturally grew like that after I got more and more experience with DNA and genetic research.
To come to your question: I don't think you need the Geno 2.0 Next-gen after you already completed the Big-Y. The Geno 2.0 NG tests a limited amount of known SNPs. When our knowledge of the tree gets better and better, the Geno 2.0 NG will become more and more outdated. With your Big-Y you already know 25% of your Ydna (~14 million locations). When the Y-tree gets updated you can look your private SNPs and you will know immediately what new subbranch you belong to. In that respect the Big-Y is very future proof. In fact, at the moment Big-Y-testers are more limited by the limited knowledge of the Y-tree than any potential gaps in their results.

paulgill
11-25-2015, 02:48 PM
Nobody advised me to do it. After my Geno 2.0 tranfer to FTDNA i just upgraded from time to time if i had enough money saved up for an upgrade.
I thought it was better to have more results for an automatic compare with other people at FTDNA. If i have save up enough money one day i will look for a full Genome test.
Couldn't answer private pm at the moment, paulgill. My Geno 2.0 result is R-CTS4065.

There is nothing at FTDNA that in anyway is better than the tests you have already taken. You do not need Geno 2.0 next generation. You don't need anything from FullGenomes either, even when those tests are better and more complete.

Did you join a R1 Project at FTDNA? Administration at your R1 Project should have had guided you depending on your needs as to what test you should take next, but it is too late in your case, as you have already taken the best that FTDNA can offer to anybody.

Did you have your Big Y file analysed either by FullGenomes or by YFull, if not, then that is the only test you need for now. Big Y results that FTDNA gives you is a real joke, your FTDNA R1 Project administrator may also be able to give good idea about your results.

https://www.fullgenomes.com/purchases/11/,

http://www.yfull.com/, yFull will also get you on YFull Tree, http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S1221/

Artmar
11-25-2015, 03:32 PM
That doesn't mean that person needs all these tests. One can get on FTDNA Projects just with 12 STR Test, there are SNPs Pack Panels. Can you justify all these test for one person in anyway?
Even with knowledge of most downstream SNPs, with y-12 you may overlook MANY genealogically significant male relatives that aren't in geographical or haplogroup projects.


And remember STRs are basically now obsolete when there are NGS test providing you with terminal SNP.
I'm perfectly aware of that fact.

paulgill
11-25-2015, 03:46 PM
Even with knowledge of most downstream SNPs, with y-12 you may overlook MANY genealogically significant male relatives that aren't in geographical or haplogroup projects.


I'm perfectly aware of that fact.

12 STRs are just to get on the Project, there are 400+ STRs one gets from a NGS test. 400+ vs 111?

Joe B
11-25-2015, 03:56 PM
Hello,
I have a Rookie question:
I transfered my Geno 2.0 to FTDNA. After that i updated to FamilyFinder, fullSequence mtDNA, Y-111 and Big Y. I'm still waiting for Y111 and Big Y results.
However will i have an advance to make / update to Geno 2.0 next gen?Hello Wiborg,
Welcome to Anthrogenica. Your route of testing is not uncommon and is very complete. It's very unlikely that Geno 2.0 will add anything to your very complete testing. Please join the R R1b ALL Subclades Gateway project, the R P312 and Subclades project and most importantly the R DF27 and Subclades project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b/about/background
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-p312/about/background
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/about/background
It's usually a good idea to submit your Big Y BAM file to either FGC or YFull for analysis. Both do a good job. YFull does have a public tree with TMRCA estimates that most people enjoy.
https://www.fullgenomes.com/
http://www.yfull.com/
R-S1221Z2355/CTS4065/S1221 * S25783 * CTS3702/S1220formed 3900 ybp, TMRCA 3500 ybp
http://yfull.com/tree/R-S1221/

Usually you will get a very nice response to a question like yours. Some people, usually the one's that don't know very much, can be very pompous. Sorry you had to experience it.

razyn
11-25-2015, 04:11 PM
Please join the R R1b ALL Subclades Gateway project and the R P312 and Subclades project.


I don't have anything against these upstream projects, although I think their purpose is sorting people to more specific haplogroups (branches or twigs of the huge R1b bush). But this particular guy (Wiborg) already knew from the first Geno2 version that he is CTS4065+ (one of the main branches of the N/S Cluster within the Z195+ side of DF27). So, the generic advice to rookies is not so germane to rookies who have tested this well, and have been swapping emails with their more specific haplogroup's admins for most of a year.

Heber
11-25-2015, 10:24 PM
Ten years of progress in Anthropology through the Geographic Project

http://dna-explained.com/2015/11/25/genographic-project-publications-2015/

Kaido
11-28-2015, 01:55 PM
I noticed that the components for my reference populations have changed whilst my results have remained the same, is it that way for anybody else?

https://i.gyazo.com/0a266160717fa6aaea1abe4bdbce4823.png

paulgill
11-28-2015, 08:01 PM
I noticed that the components for my reference populations have changed whilst my results have remained the same, is it that way for anybody else?

No, nothing changed for me.

wombatofthenorth
04-09-2016, 10:37 PM
Does anyone know how to download your raw data from Geno 2.0 NG? Their website says not available but now available after free transfer to FTDNA. But on FTDNA all I see is instruction links for Ancestry and 23 transferred kits. Never mind it says you can only get your raw data if you pay another $39!

ArmandoR1b
04-10-2016, 01:29 PM
Does anyone know how to download your raw data from Geno 2.0 NG? Their website says not available but now available after free transfer to FTDNA. But on FTDNA all I see is instruction links for Ancestry and 23 transferred kits. Never mind it says you can only get your raw data if you pay another $39!
After you transfer your Geno 2.0 NG results you will be able to download the Y-DNA SNPs and mtDNA SNPs in CSV files from the default page https://www.familytreedna.com/my/default.aspx For and example see the following screenshot - http://i.imgur.com/gcRTGZr.jpg

I suppose that you can download the autosomal results after purchasing the Family Finder transfer for $39. That option shows up as an advertisement in the default page after transferring the Geno 2.0 NG results to FTDNA.

Those are your only options for downloading the raw data.

wombatofthenorth
04-10-2016, 10:46 PM
After you transfer your Geno 2.0 NG results you will be able to download the Y-DNA SNPs and mtDNA SNPs in CSV files from the default page https://www.familytreedna.com/my/default.aspx For and example see the following screenshot - http://i.imgur.com/gcRTGZr.jpg

I suppose that you can download the autosomal results after purchasing the Family Finder transfer for $39. That option shows up as an advertisement in the default page after transferring the Geno 2.0 NG results to FTDNA.

Those are your only options for downloading the raw data.

Well the mtDNA file is useless. Only 43 results in it and then it just stops. Maybe as soon as they hit a no call on a pathway they don't give you any more results? Why don't they give you the full download? I was hoping maybe, since I know from the last test it was postitive for V3 that I might find later markers to see what V3 it was.
But the file had less results than his file from the old test.

ArmandoR1b
04-11-2016, 03:42 AM
Well the mtDNA file is useless. Only 43 results in it and then it just stops. Maybe as soon as they hit a no call on a pathway they don't give you any more results? Why don't they give you the full download? I was hoping maybe, since I know from the last test it was postitive for V3 that I might find later markers to see what V3 it was.
But the file had less results than his file from the old test.
I don't have the answers to the questions but hopefully other people learn from your experience and get the Full mtDNA test at FTDNA if they want all of the mitochondrial mutations and as specific of a subclade as possible.

Petr
04-11-2016, 08:05 AM
After you transfer your Geno 2.0 NG results you will be able to download the Y-DNA SNPs and mtDNA SNPs in CSV files from the default page https://www.familytreedna.com/my/default.aspx For and example see the following screenshot - http://i.imgur.com/gcRTGZr.jpg

I suppose that you can download the autosomal results after purchasing the Family Finder transfer for $39. That option shows up as an advertisement in the default page after transferring the Geno 2.0 NG results to FTDNA.

Those are your only options for downloading the raw data.

Do I understand correctly that it is not possible to download Geno 2.0+ results the same way as it is possible to download Geno 2.0 data?

ArmandoR1b
04-11-2016, 11:16 AM
Do I understand correctly that it is not possible to download Geno 2.0+ results the same way as it is possible to download Geno 2.0 data?
That is correct.

wombatofthenorth
04-11-2016, 09:06 PM
Do I understand correctly that it is not possible to download Geno 2.0+ results the same way as it is possible to download Geno 2.0 data?

You have to download them from FTDNA now. You can get the full Y download for free there as well as a partial mtDNA for free (even with the old test it appears nobody was ever given more than partial mtDNA data for some reason either). You can get the autosomal download from FTDNA but that only if you do the full transfer which costs $39 (you do also get into the FTDNA matching lists and access to all their other stuff too though as it includes full FamilyFinder stuff).

GoldenHind
04-15-2016, 12:25 AM
I am aware of yet another person whose Geno 2 results show him as Z2976+ and Z2970+, but all his upstream markers (L21, DF13, DF49 and DF23) are all listed as "presumed" positive rather than actually positive. There have been several reports of false positives for these two SNPs. I have sent FTDNA a bug report regarding an example where these same results are demonstrably false.

ArmandoR1b
04-15-2016, 02:18 AM
I am aware of yet another person whose Geno 2 results show him as Z2976+ and Z2970+, but all his upstream markers (L21, DF13, DF49 and DF23) are all listed as "presumed" positive rather than actually positive. There have been several reports of false positives for these two SNPs. I have sent FTDNA a bug report regarding an example where these same results are demonstrably false.
A person that isn't even P312 is also Z2976+ and Z2970+. The same goes for the two people at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6206-URGENT-Results-came-and-Help!!-NGE-2-0 and there are 4 people in the DF27 DNA project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27?iframe=ysnp and 4 people in the U152 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp They are definitely unreliable SNPs.

GoldenHind
04-15-2016, 03:17 AM
A person that isn't even P312 is also Z2976+ and Z2970+. The same goes for the two people at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6206-URGENT-Results-came-and-Help!!-NGE-2-0 and there are 4 people in the DF27 DNA project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27?iframe=ysnp and 4 people in the U152 project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=ysnp They are definitely unreliable SNPs.

The sample I quoted also got a "presumed"positive for P312. Who knows whether he is really P312+ or not.

To your list you can add a P312>DF99 person who got the same Z2976+ and Z2970+ (a different person from the latest I mentioned).