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rms2
06-28-2015, 05:51 PM
I first mentioned this paper elsewhere awhile back, and it was discussed briefly, but I think it is important enough to merit its own thread. The paper is The Dogma of the Iberian Origin of Bell Beaker: Attempting its Deconstruction (http://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction), by Christian Jeunesse. It comes from the Journal of Neolithic Archaeology, 02 March 2015.

Here's a small sample of the central tenet of the article:



. . . [T]here is no objective reason to think that the matter of the Bell Beaker cradle is definitely closed (p. 165).


Read it for yourself and see what you think.

Note: I posted this in the R1b General subforum because thus far all the ancient Beaker results have been R1b, and it seems to me any discussion of R1b in Europe gets around to Beaker sooner or later.

rms2
06-29-2015, 11:02 AM
The new paper Molecular genetic investigation of the Neolithic population history in the western Carpathian Basin (http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf), by Anna Szécsényi-Nagy, seems to support Jeunesse, as two more ancient R1bs have turned up, this time in the Carpathian Basin.



It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).

rms2
06-29-2015, 12:02 PM
I have posted these two pictures before, but I think they are appropriate for this thread and at this time, given the two newly discovered ancient R1b results from the Carpathian Basin I mentioned above. They show the cultural situation in the Carpathian Basin in the early 3rd millennium BC and the sequence of pedestalled bowls produced by some of the cultures there. Note the time scale on the left in the pedestalled bowls graphic, which indicates a succession of apparent influence from Vucedol to Mako to Somogyvar to Bell Beaker.

5079 5080

Michał
06-29-2015, 12:13 PM
It's a pity that the Vucedul sample failed to give a conclusive result for M269 and that no SNPs downstream of M269 were tested. It seems that L51 and Z2103 are the strongest candidates here (with PF7562 being another contender, though sligthly less likely). Apart from the unknown status for L51 and Z2103, it would be extremely useful to learn whether the nearby Yamna kurgans included the same subclade(s) of R1b (under M269/L23?) or maybe different one(s). Vucedol was contemporary with the earliest Danubian Yamna kurgans, so this could be either a transmission from Yamna to Vucedol, or, alternatively, two parallel R1b-containing cultures strongly interacting with each other. The genesis of Vucedol is believed to be based on a "fusion" of some Baden-derived elements and the Kostolac culture located on both sides of the Danube (ie. in NE Serbia and SW Romania). When assuming that Yamna did not contribute to the genetic pool of Vucedol (which we don't know yet at the moment), the most likely source of R1b would be the Kostolac culture, as Baden seems to be a culture with no steppe-derived autosomal contribution.

alan
06-29-2015, 01:06 PM
It's a pity that the Vucedul sample failed to give a conclusive result for M269 and that no SNPs downstream of M269 were tested. It seems that L51 and Z2103 are the strongest candidates here (with PF7562 being another contender, though sligthly less likely). Apart from the unknown status for L51 and Z2103, it would be extremely useful to learn whether the nearby Yamna kurgans included the same subclade(s) of R1b (under M269/L23?) or maybe different one(s). Vucedol was contemporary with the earliest Danubian Yamna kurgans, so this could be either a transmission from Yamna to Vucedol, or, alternatively, two parallel R1b-containing cultures strongly interacting with each other. The genesis of Vucedol is believed to be based on a "fusion" of some Baden-derived elements and the Kostolac culture located on both sides of the Danube (ie. in NE Serbia and SW Romania). When assuming that Yamna did not contribute to the genetic pool of Vucedol (which we don't know yet at the moment), the most likely source of R1b would be the Kostolac culture, as Baden seems to be a culture with no steppe-derived autosomal contribution.

Am I right in saying this is the earliest M269 sample found outside the steppes?

Michał
06-29-2015, 01:38 PM
Am I right in saying this is the earliest M269 sample found outside the steppes?
No, the Vucedol sample was not tested for M269, while the Gata sample (M269+) was dated to 1950-1760 BC only, so the earliest M269 sample outside the steppes is still the Scandinavian sample RISE98 (U106+, 2275-2032 BC). The German U152 sample (RISE563) could be older than RISE98, but it lacks any RC dates.

rms2
06-29-2015, 01:45 PM
I think the Quedlinburg Beaker R1b-P312 from Haak et al is older than RISE98. He is dated to 2296-2206 BC, and the Kromsdorf Bell Beaker R1b-M269xU106 from Lee et al is dated 2600-2500 BC.

alan
06-29-2015, 01:55 PM
While assumptions are dangerous, its hard to believe any of the R1b found in central Europe c. 2800-2200BC is not M269. M73 or V88 seem incredibly unlikely.

R.Rocca
06-29-2015, 02:15 PM
...When assuming that Yamna did not contribute to the genetic pool of Vucedol (which we don't know yet at the moment), the most likely source of R1b would be the Kostolac culture, as Baden seems to be a culture with no steppe-derived autosomal contribution.

The oldest Vučedol Culture material, dated 3077-2787 cal BC, also has Usatovo/Coţofeni Culture elements.

rms2
06-29-2015, 02:23 PM
The oldest Vučedol Culture material, dated 3077-2787 cal BC, also has Usatovo/Coţofeni Culture elements.

Usatovo would fit Michal's hypothesis of a pre-Yamnaya steppe population as the source of R1b-L51.

parasar
06-29-2015, 03:02 PM
I think the Quedlinburg Beaker R1b-P312 from Haak et al is older than RISE98. He is dated to 2296-2206 BC, and the Kromsdorf Bell Beaker R1b-M269xU106 from Lee et al is dated 2600-2500 BC.

Was that date confirmed? I think only the R1b's (M269 status not known) date was confirmed. Though it is possible that both were M269, it is not certain.

rms2
06-29-2015, 03:04 PM
Was that date confirmed? I think only the R1b's (M269 status not known) date was confirmed. Though it is possible that both were M269, it is not certain.

Honestly, I'm not sure. That was the date from the Lee et al paper, as I recall, but how or if they confirmed it, I do not know.

MT1976
07-10-2015, 12:57 AM
Usatovo would fit Michal's hypothesis of a pre-Yamnaya steppe population as the source of R1b-L51.

For a while I toyed the notion that R1b-M269 arrived during pre-yamnaya era. Ie during the secondary products revolution c. 5-4000 BC, and already evident in later Copper Age cultures of southeastern Europe, incl Hungary. The contacts with West Asia, where the secondary product 'revolution' began, and have otherwise little to do with the Pre-yamnaya horizon in the steppe. The mentioned 'West Asian contacts' might have facilitated the advent of M269 into Europe via the Carpathians and Balkans. However, I was ready to abandon this idea given the lack of R1b in our collection of Hungarian samples, until gamba's PhD was released.

R.Rocca
07-13-2015, 12:00 PM
For a while I toyed the notion that R1b-M269 arrived during pre-yamnaya era. Ie during the secondary products revolution c. 5-4000 BC, and already evident in later Copper Age cultures of southeastern Europe, incl Hungary. The contacts with West Asia, where the secondary product 'revolution' began, and have otherwise little to do with the Pre-yamnaya horizon in the steppe. The mentioned 'West Asian contacts' might have facilitated the advent of M269 into Europe via the Carpathians and Balkans. However, I was ready to abandon this idea given the lack of R1b in our collection of Hungarian samples, until gamba's PhD was released.

I used to be in that camp as well. From a technology perspective, it would seem that the horse was perhaps the only important differentiator between R1b Bell Beaker groups and other Copper Age Europeans. From Vander Linden 2004...


Actually, the sole element that might be completely new is the appearance and
multiplication of horse bones in the archaeological record throughout the third
millennium BC. However, this problem raises several difficulties, as the determination
of the original area of this species or the potential subsequent way of dispersal
(a complete review of the evidence is provided by Uerpmann: Uerpmann 1990; see
also contributions in HÄNSEL / ZIMMER 1994). One can only suggest that the dispersal
of horse may have been eased, in some cases, by the existence of the Bell Beaker
network.

That is not to say that other things did not play into its success/expansion. I'm sure social behaviors had a lot to do with it, but we shouldn't rule out other factors like genetic advantages, climate, etc.

Webb
07-13-2015, 01:26 PM
"The Bell Beaker phenomenon in the Iberian peninsula defines the late phase of the local Chalcolithic and even intrudes in the earliest centuries of the Bronze Age.[27] A review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe found that some of the earliest were found in Portugal, where the range from Zambujal and Cerro de la Virgen (Spain) ran between 2900 BC and 2500 BC, in contrast to the rather later range for Andalusia (between 2500 BC to 2200 BC).[13]

At present no internal chronology for the various Bell Beaker-related styles has been achieved yet for Iberia.[28] Peninsular corded Bell Beakers are usually found in coastal or near coastal regions in three main regions: the western Pyrenees, the lower Ebro and adjacent east coast, and the northwest. A corded-zoned Maritime variety (C/ZM), proposed to be a hybrid between AOC and Maritime Herringbone, was mainly found in burial contexts and expanded westward, especially along the mountain systems of the Meseta."

From Wiki

R.Rocca
07-13-2015, 01:30 PM
"The Bell Beaker phenomenon in the Iberian peninsula defines the late phase of the local Chalcolithic and even intrudes in the earliest centuries of the Bronze Age.[27] A review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe found that some of the earliest were found in Portugal, where the range from Zambujal and Cerro de la Virgen (Spain) ran between 2900 BC and 2500 BC, in contrast to the rather later range for Andalusia (between 2500 BC to 2200 BC).[13]

At present no internal chronology for the various Bell Beaker-related styles has been achieved yet for Iberia.[28] Peninsular corded Bell Beakers are usually found in coastal or near coastal regions in three main regions: the western Pyrenees, the lower Ebro and adjacent east coast, and the northwest. A corded-zoned Maritime variety (C/ZM), proposed to be a hybrid between AOC and Maritime Herringbone, was mainly found in burial contexts and expanded westward, especially along the mountain systems of the Meseta."

From Wiki

We now have just-as-old radiocarbon tested Bell Beaker bone samples from north-east Iberia.

Webb
07-13-2015, 01:43 PM
We now have just-as-old radiocarbon tested Bell Beaker bone samples from north-east Iberia.

Yes, north east Iberia is very close to the Western Pyrenees. If one was going to enter Spain by land and avoid the Pyrenees, you could skirt the Western Pyrenees in the North East of Spain between the Bay of Biscay and the mountains, or enter down at the Eastern Pyrenees between the mountains and the Mediterrean.

Webb
07-13-2015, 02:01 PM
The question for me is this. Did our R1b friends enter Iberia by land or by sea? From a military standpoint, crossing the mountains is probably too dangerous. The Vikings were able to establish cities and towns fairly easy by taking key harbors away from the locals. Very little risk for a huge benefit. The same for the two passes to the west and east of the Pyrenees. If you control the passes, then you can control who comes out and goes in. The author/authors of the Wiki article are suggesting that the oldest Beaker sites are close to the coasts. I know the Wiki articles are probably not the most current, but does this scenario still stand up? Are these still the oldests sites?

rms2
07-16-2015, 09:10 AM
There are some very fine Treemix graphs (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/) at the Eurogenes Blog for Wednesday, 15 July that are relevant to this discussion.

alan
07-16-2015, 09:47 AM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/population-genomics-of-early-bronze-age.html

alan
07-16-2015, 10:17 AM
The question for me is this. Did our R1b friends enter Iberia by land or by sea? From a military standpoint, crossing the mountains is probably too dangerous. The Vikings were able to establish cities and towns fairly easy by taking key harbors away from the locals. Very little risk for a huge benefit. The same for the two passes to the west and east of the Pyrenees. If you control the passes, then you can control who comes out and goes in. The author/authors of the Wiki article are suggesting that the oldest Beaker sites are close to the coasts. I know the Wiki articles are probably not the most current, but does this scenario still stand up? Are these still the oldests sites?

I have come round to thinking that the importance of the mouth of the Tagus to beaker might be partly because the Tagus is such a long east-west flowing river penetrating towards east-central Iberia. It would be incredibly handy for traffic heading west to just let the current take them to the Atlantic. A return journey would largely be against the current and so might have just been by horses or perhaps west to east journeys by sea would make more sense. However unless there is something about the Tagus I am missing, it seems like an amazing gift horse compared to dangerous journeys around the coast. A short portage by land would seem to take you to rivers linking to the Med. in NE Iberia. On the surface it seems to me there was a nice relatively easy way to get to the Atlantic using the Tagus although not so handy in the reverse journey due to the direction of the flow.

TigerMW
07-16-2015, 01:50 PM
http://eurogenes.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/population-genomics-of-early-bronze-age.html
Eurogenes blogged,
"The first Bell Beakers supposedly lived in Iberia. Perhaps they did, but these Bell Beakers from Central Europe look like mixtures between Copper Age locals and a people closely related to the Yamnaya nomads of the Eurasian steppe."

If so, what is more likely - for Yamnaya Eurasian in-land nomads or their derived mixes to come by land to Iberia? or to come through the straits of Gibralter by sea? Where there important ship building sites or wrecks in the Black Sea from this time?

Eurogenes blogged,
"Corded Ware and Bell Beaker also look like twins if the admixture that their eastern ancestors acquired in Central Europe is overlooked. Is this because they mixed with each other in Central Europe, or do they represent twin thrusts of teh same Indo-European population from the steppe? That's yet to be resolved."
I still think U106 is a key to the puzzle. Do we think pre-Germanic peoples came from the Corded Ware?

R.Rocca
07-27-2015, 01:36 PM
@Alan, in re-reading the Allentoft paper's supplementary information, they did mentioned the very issue of 14C dating of reservoir effects from freshwater diet...


We have in recent years witnessed a new 14C-dating programme of Russian samples from
burials. Due to the reservoir effects from freshwater diet, many previous 14C-dates of human
bone can now be demonstrated as being too old - sometimes by 300-400 years. This has been
demonstrated by systematically dating objects of animal bones, or objects made from animal
bone, and of short lived timber from graves13,14,15. We have therefore here lowered the absolute
chronology of Yamnaya and related cultures in accordance with these new results.


More than 400 14C-dates are now available for the original set of 603 samples. 14C determinations
of the selected subset are included, with calibrations (2 sigma) in Supplementary
Table 1. It should be noted that the calibrations have been made without taking possible marine
reservoir effects into account. Judging from the 13C collagen values, this is likely to only affect
one case, namely sample RISE61, from Kyndelřse in Denmark. It is a young man with a high
marine signal, and his dating should likely be reduced by a couple of hundred years. Freshwater
reservoir effects, as can be deduced from combined 13C and 15N values, are also of marginal
importance in these data. The clearest exception could be three dates from Bulanovo in Russia,
classified as Sintashta culture, which have raised 15N values and also somewhat earlier dates
than other Sintashta samples.

alan
07-27-2015, 04:27 PM
@Alan, in re-reading the Allentoft paper's supplementary information, they did mentioned the very issue of 14C dating of reservoir effects from freshwater diet...

Its a clearcut issues when Mesolithic/groups who retained an hunter fisher aspect are RC dated. Prime suspects are places where farming was slow to take on and where there is coast and riverine environments. So a lot of eastern Europe in pre-Yamnaya times, Scandinavia etc are really obvious cases where this need checked for before a date can be taken at face value. This issue has been recognised for some time and those areas where the reservoir effect seems particularly likely have been looked at.

In general there seems to be a distaste and rejection of marine/riverine diet (makes you wonder if Jewish rejection of shellfish originates in this) by the early farmers in Europe or at least in areas where farming cultures strongly and suddenly replaced the hunters. So there are many Neolithic farming cultures which seem unlikely to have been effected by this reservoir effect.

However what really struck me is that this is not true of Iberia - at least in the later Neolithic/early copper age and into the beaker era. Now, by means did they have a marine dominated diet so I dont think we are likely talking about the really massive 400 years kind of reservoir effect. However a lesser effect seems a strong possibility to me. Now, some may say well that applies to all beaker people BUT there was a study of beaker isotopes in Britain and they seem to have not been fish fans at all and I have read that the (surprising in some ways) lack of fish in isles diet seems to have been longstanding in Britain - some say the Vikings re-introduced a significant fish element. One group other beaker group who have been IDed as having a riverine aspect to their diets is Bavarian beaker. Some areas have a very longstanding farming-fishing tradition which persist to today. A lot of the Med. for example. Scandinavia is another place with a longstanding tradition of that. I dont know the details but it would be interesting to know more. Clearly if their is a possibility of such an effect on beaker dates in certain regions it is something that needs checked.

Just to be clear though - I still think there is evidence that Iberian beaker is genuinely early although it is worrying that a lot of the earlier dates that can be ruled out of reservoir effects are from settlements sites. I still think burials are by far the best way of dating for a number of reasons. The solution to this IMO is to look again at a large sample of the human bone from different Iberian beaker burials and do the isoptope testing to see if reservoir effect is a possibility. Even if the effect is moderate - say one or two centuries then that would still have the effect of making Iberian dates a whole lot more similar to those elsewhere. I have no idea if there is a reservoir effect effecting Iberian dates and indeed non-beaker Iberian copper age dates but there is clear evidence of fishing and the sensible thing is to check this.

alan
07-27-2015, 04:35 PM
Incidentally one tricky issue which means it is not as simple as checking human against animal bone in the same burial is that Iberian beaker frequently re-uses old megaliths so unless there is a clear animal bone manufactured artifact of beaker style, doubts may usually pertain as to the original association of stray animal bones in beaker burials in megaliths. So that is a problem.

razyn
07-27-2015, 04:50 PM
Several years ago (2011?) when there was a DNA-Forums, and one of its subgroups was in French, there was a discussion of a paper in which it had been asserted that the most popular edible frogs in France had been tested for DNA, and turned out to be ancestrally from Russia. I think maybe Didier, Heber, and Bernard were the guys discussing it. Anyway, someone who now posts here may know. I'd think that might be a pointer at part of the riverine diet that may have been changing during the Beaker migration era. Whether frogs in the diet would affect the RC dating, I have no idea.

alan
07-27-2015, 04:55 PM
Eurogenes blogged,
"The first Bell Beakers supposedly lived in Iberia. Perhaps they did, but these Bell Beakers from Central Europe look like mixtures between Copper Age locals and a people closely related to the Yamnaya nomads of the Eurasian steppe."

If so, what is more likely - for Yamnaya Eurasian in-land nomads or their derived mixes to come by land to Iberia? or to come through the straits of Gibralter by sea? Where there important ship building sites or wrecks in the Black Sea from this time?

Eurogenes blogged,
"Corded Ware and Bell Beaker also look like twins if the admixture that their eastern ancestors acquired in Central Europe is overlooked. Is this because they mixed with each other in Central Europe, or do they represent twin thrusts of teh same Indo-European population from the steppe? That's yet to be resolved."
I still think U106 is a key to the puzzle. Do we think pre-Germanic peoples came from the Corded Ware?

I am more favouring the use of the Tagus river. It provides access by small boat for a great length of Iberia. Naturally it is a great deal easier to use the river in an east to west direction rather than the reverse. It would seem absurd to me if this river was not used moving with current as a quick and easy method to get to the coast of Portugal near the Tagus mouth from east-central Iberia although there could be issues that are not obvious to me. Now that early beaker dates in Iberia do not look confined to Portugal this might be even more important.

It seems to me that it would not take a lot of small boat stations and modest overland portages to allow the rivers of Europe as well as some coast hugging to be form a rather efficient network. Elsewhere the Rhone, Rhine and Loire for example with their current flowing south, north and norht-west from west central Europe look very rational ways of moving about with a minimum of danger, using the current. That would appear to me not to have required very sophisticated boat technology. The evidence for more sophisticated boats doesnt begin until the end of the beaker phase and its log boats that are found in that era. There is a lot of speculation about skin boats too although hard evidence is very hard to obtain. Skin covered wicker framed currach type boats seem to me to be a vastly superior option to logboats and can be very seaworthy too. Skinboats seem to me likely to have arisen in areas where cattle were plentiful but the huge trees needed for logboats rare.

ADW_1981
07-27-2015, 04:56 PM
Does anyone recall if there are up and coming unreleased aDNA results coming from either Neolithic/Bronze Age Iberian sites in the future? Specifically on the YDNA side?

alan
07-27-2015, 04:57 PM
Several years ago (2011?) when there was a DNA-Forums, and one of its subgroups was in French, there was a discussion of a paper in which it had been asserted that the most popular edible frogs in France had been tested for DNA, and turned out to be ancestrally from Russia. I think maybe Didier, Heber, and Bernard were the guys discussing it. Anyway, someone who now posts here may know. I'd think that might be a pointer at part of the riverine diet that may have been changing during the Beaker migration era. Whether frogs in the diet would affect the RC dating, I have no idea.

I am tempted to say you have just thrown all dates from France into doubt but that would be stereotyping hahahaha. I ate frog once in a Cajun place in New Orleans and guess what - tastes like Chicken.

rms2
07-28-2015, 12:48 AM
I am tempted to say you have just thrown all dates from France into doubt but that would be stereotyping hahahaha. I ate frog once in a Cajun place in New Orleans and guess what - tastes like Chicken.

Frog is good. I have eaten a lot of frogs' legs in my time (my dad was born and raised in New Orleans). My uncle Lloyd McCabe (obviously not a Frenchman) used to go frog gigging on a regular basis and had a whole bunch of frogs' legs in his freezer. Plenty of people around here still pursue that custom. My Uncle Lloyd was a big outdoorsman (also a big fan of Jack Daniels whiskey).

razyn
07-28-2015, 02:16 AM
Frog is good. I have eaten a lot of frogs' legs in my time

Before we moved to VA in 1973, I used to get frogs' legs at places around Kentucky Lake (which btw is mostly in Tennessee). The good place I recall near Camden, TN is no more. But word on the street is that they are only $7.99 at Soda Pop Junction in Lynnville, TN on Friday evenings. Maybe just in the spring.

This is almost certainly a digression from the original, Bell Beaker topic. But my first post about edible frogs was not. I think the said frogs were evidence of some underlying reality that involved east to west migration, or at least trade routes, in the copper age or thereabouts. It's been a few years since I read that paper.

paulgill
07-28-2015, 03:45 AM
Before we moved to VA in 1973, I used to get frogs' legs at places around Kentucky Lake (which btw is mostly in Tennessee). The good place I recall near Camden, TN is no more. But word on the street is that they are only $7.99 at Soda Pop Junction in Lynnville, TN on Friday evenings. Maybe just in the spring.

This is almost certainly a digression from the original, Bell Beaker topic. But my first post about edible frogs was not. I think the said frogs were evidence of some underlying reality that involved east to west migration, or at least trade routes, in the copper age or thereabouts. It's been a few years since I read that paper.

razyn, beside the great FROGS, what else your taste buds miss so much?