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nuadha
06-29-2015, 06:15 AM
rms2 I hope you're reading this. It Looks like the ancestor or close relative of Bell Beaker R1b was found in Hungary.

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/06/2-vucedol-period-are-r1b.html

Holy crap, I even had a glance at that paper but didn't think id find anything new. Wow

where is the source for the following quote?


It is noteworthy that the R1b occurred first after the Middle Chalcolithic in Transdanubia. (Late Chalcolithic has not been not examined yet, and so a hiatus remains between the Middle Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze Age data.) The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC). R1b is the most frequent haplogroup in today’s Europe, with a frequency peak in Western Europe (Balaresque et al., 2010). From prehistoric context, this haplogroup is known from the Late Neolithic Central Germany (Bell Beaker culture, Lee et al., 2012). The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).

Leeroy Jenkins
06-29-2015, 06:38 AM
Holy crap, I even had a glance at that paper but didn't think id find anything new. Wow

where is the source for the following quote?

http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

That quote can be found on page 142.

http://i61.tinypic.com/23sessx.jpg

Interesting that I2a2 was found only in the Bronze Age considering it was present in the latest Yamnaya results along with R1b. Also, the I1 in LBKT and the J2 in Lengyel and Sopot caught my eye.

Humanist
06-29-2015, 07:02 AM
Anna Szecsenyi-Nagy thesis, 2015, Molecular genetic investigation of the Neolithic population history in the western Carpathian Basin (http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/)


Screening all well-preserved samples, the Y-chromosomal haplogroups were defined in 33 Neolithic and Chalcolithic individuals.


The G and F haplogroups were not found in the Sopot dataset, but I2-I2a1 reappeared in the Late Neolithic, and three new haplogroups occurred in this cultures well: E1b1b1a1, J2and C. These three novel haplogroups were also present in the Lengyel dataset, besides the persisting Early Neolithic haplogroups, such as F* and G2a.

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/dok101067/Table10.jpg

nuadha
06-29-2015, 08:05 AM
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

That quote can be found on page 142.

http://i61.tinypic.com/23sessx.jpg

Interesting that I2a2 was found only in the Bronze Age considering it was present in the latest Yamnaya results along with R1b. Also, the I1 in LBKT and the J2 in Lengyel and Sopot caught my eye.

Thanks! I found it. Im still looking for the exact circumstances of the site they came from.

Anyways, these two r1b samples match the exact timing that yamnaya graves start showing up in hungary carrying isotopic signatures from the east, i.e. they were migrants from the east. Its just as important to point out the late neolithic burials prior to yamnaya appearance show local isotopic signatures.


Strontium and oxygen isotope analyses re- veal an earlier period of ‘local’ burials, spanning the period 3300–2900 BC, followed by burials that postdate 2900 BC that exhibit ‘nonlocal’ isotopic signatures. The combination of the isotope values and the grave goods associated with the non- local burials point to the foothills of the Carpathian Mountains as the nearest location representing a possible childhood ori- gin of this nonlocal group...

Probable is the connection between the Sárrétudvari nonlocals and the Transylvanian Livezile
group, which is chiefly distributed in the eastern belt of the Apuseni Mountains and shows simi- larities in burial tradition (Ciugudean, 1996, 1998). Both the isotopes and some of the burial ob- jects suggest that the Sárrétudvari nonlocals spent at least a part of their childhoods in a hillier re- gion, possibly the mountainous area southeast of the study site...

Some of our Early Bronze Age study sites in the Northern Pontic have yielded similar 87Sr/86Sr ra- tios and oxygen values. Therefore we cannot exclude a Northern Pontic place of origin for the Sár- rétudvari individuals. Furthermore, Northern Pontic individuals might have picked up the Transylv- anian isotopic signature or a mixed signature on their way to the Eastern Great Hungarian Plain.

http://journals.cambridge.org/abstract_S0003598X00048274

Krefter
06-29-2015, 09:18 AM
rms2 I hope you're reading this. It Looks like the ancestor or close relative of Bell Beaker R1b was found in Hungary.

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2015/06/2-vucedol-period-are-r1b.html

The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. Doesn't that predate Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

Anyways, there's pretty old J2(4990-4850 BC) and E1b-M78(4780-4700 BC).

J Man
06-29-2015, 10:13 AM
Some J2 from Neolithic Europe finally!

vettor
06-29-2015, 10:20 AM
http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/dok101067/Table10.jpg

Thanks

What does F* represent?

is it from the area noted from this very very recent updated simplified map?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89#/media/File:Haplogroup_F_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

Anabasis
06-29-2015, 10:22 AM
What does NRY stand for in the paper?

rms2
06-29-2015, 10:37 AM
The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. Doesn't that predate Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

Anyways, there's pretty old J2(4990-4850 BC) and E1b-M78(4780-4700 BC).

Vučedol predates Beaker, and it was from Vučedol, Somogyvar, and Zok-Mako that Gimbutas said Beaker derived.



. . .The two R1b samples are dated to the Vučedol period (~2,870-2,580 cal BC) and to the Gáta/Wieslburg culture (~1,950- 1,760 cal BC) . . .

rms2
06-29-2015, 10:54 AM
Vučedol predates Beaker, and it was from Vučedol, Somogyvar, and Zok-Mako that Gimbutas said Beaker derived.

I have not had a chance to look at this paper yet, but thanks for posting a link to it here. Does anybody know yet about the terminal SNP status of these two R1bs?

I must confess, I like this part, particularly in light of what Christian Jeunesse wrote in The Dogma of the Iberian Origin of Bell Beaker: Attempting its Deconstruction (http://www.academia.edu/11325848/The_dogma_of_the_Iberian_origin_of_the_Bell_Beaker _attempting_its_deconstruction).


The theory that R1b reached Central Europe (and possibly the Carpathian Basin as well) with the Bell Beaker migration, starting from southwestern Europe (Brandt et al., 2014) seems to be collapsing, as R1b (M269) has recently been found in Yamnaya (3,300-2,700 cal BC) population on the Russian steppe as well (Haak et al., 2015).

rms2
06-29-2015, 10:56 AM
What does NRY stand for in the paper?

I believe that stands for "Non-Recombinant Y", i.e., the part of the y chromosome that does not recombine.

J Man
06-29-2015, 11:35 AM
Thanks

What does F* represent?

is it from the area noted from this very very recent updated simplified map?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89#/media/File:Haplogroup_F_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

It is possible that it is just F.

MfA
06-29-2015, 11:41 AM
Some J2 from Neolithic Europe finally!

This is what author talks about J2 samples, p.142


It is interesting, that J2 (M172) has not been detected in Neolithic context yet, and it is not present in the western Carpathian Early/Middle Neolithic dataset either. It might have come first with the people of the Late Neolithic cultures into Transdanubia, which means either that it is not the marker for the earliest dispersal of farmers, or that it halted in southeastern Europe for about millennium, before reaching the Carpathian Basin.

About E-M78 sample

Three new haplogroups appeared at the turn of the Middle/ Late Neolithic in Transdanubia, the E1b1b1a1 (M78), the C (M216) and the J2 (M172). E1b1b1a1 has only one prehistoric parallel from the Iberian Epicardial culture (Lacan et al., 2011b). Modern genetic studies reveal a northeastern African origin of this subclade, which has a moderate frequency in Europe, Western Asia and a higher frequency (up to 50%) in North and East Africa. Its occurrence is the highest in the Mediterranean (up to 32% in Albania) in Europe (Cruciani et al., 2007).

These are the SNPs they've tested? p.277
http://abload.de/img/desktop_2015_06_29_14k0qj7.png

If so, I think there is a chance that sample might be V13.

Jean M
06-29-2015, 12:26 PM
The R1b results are now in http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml together with the I2a2 from the Vučedol period.

I will get the Late Neolithic J2 and E1b1b1a1 up shortly.

Jean M
06-29-2015, 12:29 PM
Does anybody know yet about the terminal SNP status of these two R1bs?

She did not test the full range of SNPs now available, so the terminal SNPs she found should be regarded as provisional, I think.

Vučedol R1b (M343)
Gáta/Wieslburg R1b1a2 (M269)

rms2
06-29-2015, 12:32 PM
She did not text the full range of SNPs now available, so the terminal SNPs she found should be regarded as provisional, I think.
Vučedol R1b (M343)
Gáta/Wieslburg R1b1a2 (M269)

Will anyone with the know-how be able to get hold of the files with as much of the genomes as possible, so that we might get a better picture? It would be nice to know if these R1bs were L51 derived or not.

However the facts that they were recovered in the Carpathian Basin and the older of the two dates to the 3rd millennium BC, are extremely significant.

Michał
06-29-2015, 12:41 PM
Will anyone with the know-how be able to get hold of the files with as much of the genomes as possible, so that we might get a better picture? It would be nice to know if these R1bs were L51 derived or not.

I'm afaraid they haven't done any NGS-based analysis (or any extended autosomal or Y-DNA chip), so all we have are just two SNPs specific for R1b (ie. M343 and M269) that were typed, with M269 failing to give a conclusive result for the Vucedol sample.

rms2
06-29-2015, 12:45 PM
I'm afaraid they haven't done any NGS-based analysis (or any extended autosomal or Y-DNA chip), so all we have are just two SNPs specific for R1b (ie. M343 and M269) that were typed, with M269 failing to give a conclusive result for the Vucedol sample.

Thanks. So, it's nice, and another tantalizing set of clues, but not really the smoking gun we're looking for. Well, it could be the smoking gun, but apparently we're not going to find out from this paper.

R.Rocca
06-29-2015, 01:06 PM
The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. Doesn't that predate Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

Anyways, there's pretty old J2(4990-4850 BC) and E1b-M78(4780-4700 BC).

Yes, this particular sample slightly pre-dates Bell Beaker in Central Europe (Hungary), but it is a contemporary of the earliest Bell Beaker dates thoughout most of Iberia and Portugal. However, the oldest Vučedol Culture dates are older than any Bell Beaker dates anywhere.

Jean M
06-29-2015, 01:08 PM
The R1b results are now in http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml together with the I2a2 from the Vučedol period.

More haste, less speed. I read the wrong line for the calibrated dates for the Vučedol samples. They are actually 2860-2620 BC. Now corrected.

George
06-29-2015, 01:09 PM
Interesting that I2a2 was found only in the Bronze Age considering it was present in the latest Yamnaya results along with R1b.

I wonder if this I-M223 could be considered a fellow traveller of R1b from the east rather than just a reemerging "local"? The Yamna M223 was autosomally well integrated with its R1b compadres acc. to the Allentoft results.

alan
06-29-2015, 01:25 PM
The oldest R1b is from 2860-2620 BC. Doesn't that predate Bell Beaker in Central Europe?

Anyways, there's pretty old J2(4990-4850 BC) and E1b-M78(4780-4700 BC).

Yeah I have not found any reliable central European R1b dates older than 2550BC when I have dug into the subject. Older dates seem to be unreliable. So this date is well before beaker in the area. AFAIK this is the earliest R1b (other than the very distantly related Neolithi c V88 in Iberia) found off-steppe to date and seems to be a clear case of migration into the area given it is unknown before that.

R.Rocca
06-29-2015, 01:28 PM
Yeah I have not found any reliable central European R1b dates older than 2550BC when I have dug into the subject. Older dates seem to be unreliable. So this date is well before beaker in the area. AFAIK this is the earliest M269 found off-steppe to date and seems to be a clear case of migration into the area given it is unknown before that.

The Polish R1b1+ Corded Ware sample was dated 2865 - 2578 BC, so given we don't know if this sample is M269, they could be off-steppe contemporaries.

alan
06-29-2015, 01:31 PM
The Polish R1b1+ Corded Ware sample was dated 2865 - 2578 BC, so given we don't know if this same is M269, they could be off-steppe contemporaries.

Oh well not as useful as hoped but still it confirms the picture that R1b suddenly appears after being absent among HGs and all phases of the Neolithic farmers.

rms2
06-29-2015, 01:33 PM
I don't mean to cross post, and apologize for the appearance of it, but it seems to me this info is very relevant to this thread. Perhaps these two new ancient (new ancient?) R1b results hint at the evolution of Beaker (i.e., Vucedol>Beaker>Gáta-Wieselburg).

The younger of the two R1bs, the tested R1b-M269 one, came from the Gáta-Wieselburg culture. The paper, Anthropological sketch of the prehistoric population of the
Carpathian Basin (http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-75.pdf), by Zsuzsanna K. Zoffmann, derives that culture from Bell Beaker.




Contrary to the continuity of autochtonous populations in the southern part of the Hungarian Plain, new, alien populational
groups appeared in the central and western parts of the Carpathian Basin. The people of the so-called Bell-beaker
culture occupied a large part of Europe, while in the Carpathian Basin they lived within a limited territory for a short
time and did not mix with the local population, according to archaeology. Although there are very few evaluable
anthropological finds from the biritual cemeteries of the Bell-beakers in the Carpathian Basin, the appearance of the characteristic
planoccipital Taurid type, unknown until then from the Carpathian Basin, in the populations of some later cultures (e.g. Kisapostag and
Gáta-Wieselburg cultures) suggests a mixture with the local population against the archaeological theories. According to archaeology,
the populational groups of the Bell-beakers also took part in the formation of the Gáta-Wieselburg culture on the western fringes of the
Carpathian Basin, which is also attested to by the Penrose identities between the Gáta-Wieselburg and the Bell-beaker
series in Moravia and Germany.

R.Rocca
06-29-2015, 01:37 PM
Oh well not as useful as hoped but still it confirms the picture that R1b suddenly appears after being absent among HGs and all phases of the Neolithic farmers.

If Vučedol is found to be primarily R1b-L51 as opposed to a small amount of R1b in Corded Ware (Z2103? L11xP312?) then I think it will be very useful.

ADW_1981
06-29-2015, 01:43 PM
I don't mean to cross post, and apologize for the appearance of it, but it seems to me this info is very relevant to this thread. Perhaps these two new ancient (new ancient?) R1b results hint at the evolution of Beaker (i.e., Vucedol>Beaker>Gáta-Wieselburg).

The younger of the two R1bs, the tested R1b-M269 one, came from the Gáta-Wieselburg culture. The paper, Anthropological sketch of the prehistoric population of the
Carpathian Basin (http://www2.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/Acta%20HP/44-75.pdf), by Zsuzsanna K. Zoffmann, derives that culture from Bell Beaker.

Does that mean they were flat backs or round back skulls?

alan
06-29-2015, 01:43 PM
The cultural mixing bowl of the Balkans is not an easy one to interpret when you are essentially looking for a male lineage. I suppose that is what happens when steppe elements barge into a densely populated area - you dont get a nice simple wave of the like CW produced further north in the old TRB derived areas they largely passed through.

alan
06-29-2015, 01:44 PM
Does that mean they were flat backs or round back skulls?

As I understand it the classic beaker skull is more flat backed that round per se but there are also a lot of Mesocephalic skulls

Kale
06-29-2015, 01:49 PM
So...any theories on why J2 appears here but nowhere else in the earlier, same, or later periods? I'm also wondering what those F*s are...I think the most likely candidates are G and I, but if it's more J2 that'd be interesting.

Jean M
06-29-2015, 01:50 PM
Yes, this particular sample slightly pre-dates Bell Beaker in Central Europe (Hungary), but it is a contemporary of the earliest Bell Beaker dates throughout most of Iberia...

The Bell Beaker Csepel group (in Hungary) is the earliest of the eastern Bell Beaker type, and can be considered the progenitor of Eastern BB, but it does not start until c. 2500 BC. Among the finds here was a gold disc embellished with concentric circles, similar to the gold discs found on western Bell Beaker sites, and interpreted as solar symbols.

Vučedol is not the direct progenitor of Bell Beaker Csepel. But the late phase of the Vučedol culture, particularly its Mako type, is closely related to Eastern Bell Beaker. The "accompanying pottery" of Eastern BB is from Mako and other types in the Carpathian Basin.

As I have said previously, I envisage continuity of the main P312 stream in the Carpathian Basin and suggest that the focus should be on that, to avoid the confusion caused by BB pottery in Iberia. (No matter how often I say that its antecedents can be found on the steppe and route up the Danube, people can't seem to envisage a group going and coming back.)

rms2
06-29-2015, 01:52 PM
Does that mean they were flat backs or round back skulls?

Alan already answered, but yeah, they were flat-backed, brachycephalic skulls, also known in German as Steilkopf, literally "steep head".

alan
06-29-2015, 02:10 PM
Its like a tease isnt it. A little more data but still big missing links. One thing i think worth noting is 2/2 Bronze Age guys are R1b even though from different cultures and many centuries apart. I know probability and significance doesnt work this way but it would seem rather weird for that to happen unless there was a LOT of R1b in this area at these periods. Its kind of like R1b in bell beaker and Z2103 in Yamnaya. The sample isnt huge but the dominance is massive despite a spread of samples over several centuries over a fairly wide geographical area.

rms2
06-29-2015, 02:26 PM
Its like a tease isnt it. A little more data but still big missing links. One thing i think worth noting is 2/2 Bronze Age guys are R1b even though from different cultures and many centuries apart. I know probability and significance doesnt work this way but it would seem rather weird for that to happen unless there was a LOT of R1b in this area at these periods. Its kind of like R1b in bell beaker and Z2103 in Yamnaya. The sample isnt huge but the dominance is massive despite a spread of samples over several centuries over a fairly wide geographical area.

Definitely rewarding and frustrating at the same time. Good to see some R1b that old turning up in the Carpathian Basin but absent from even older Neolithic contexts in the same area. Frustrating that we didn't get NGS results out of this set, but it's definitely far better than nothing.

R.Rocca
06-29-2015, 02:27 PM
The Bell Beaker Csepel group (in Hungary) is the earliest of the eastern Bell Beaker type, and can be considered the progenitor of Eastern BB, but it does not start until c. 2500 BC. Among the finds here was a gold disc embellished with concentric circles, similar to the gold discs found on western Bell Beaker sites, and interpreted as solar symbols.

Vučedol is not the direct progenitor of Bell Beaker Csepel. But the late phase of the Vučedol culture, particularly its Mako type, is closely related to Eastern Bell Beaker. The "accompanying pottery" of Eastern BB is from Mako and other types in the Carpathian Basin.

As I have said previously, I envisage continuity of the main P312 stream in the Carpathian Basin and suggest that the focus should be on that, to avoid the confusion caused by BB pottery in Iberia. (No matter how often I say that its antecedents can be found on the steppe and route up the Danube, people can't seem to envisage a group going and coming back.)

I have seen earlier dates than 2500 BC for BB Csepel ....


The earlier published C-14 dates of the Hungarian Bell Beaker-Csepel Group (Raczky et al 1992), and the data from the Budakalász cemetery (2550-1900 BC, Czene 2011) and the Albertfalva (2470-2050 BC) and the Szigeszentmiklós-Felso-Ürgehegyi dulo sites (2500-2200 BC, Patay 2009: 224) date the Csepel Group to 2820-2100/1900 BC. However, the data show divergences between the northern and southern zones of the Bell Beaker Csepel group. The data from Csepel Island (Szigetcsép and Csepel-Háros) range between 2820 and 2136 BC, those from the northern sites (outside Csepel Island) between 2550 and 1900 BC.

jdean
06-29-2015, 02:35 PM
Definitely rewarding and frustrating at the same time. Good to see some R1b that old turning up in the Carpathian Basin but absent from even older Neolithic contexts in the same area. Frustrating that we didn't get NGS results out of this set, but it's definitely far better than nothing.

My thoughts exactly : )

jeanL
06-29-2015, 02:40 PM
Could the R1b-M343 fellow be a false negative due to low SNP resolution, or could he be a descendant of one of the R1b-P297 found in Yamnaya? Though I think the R1b-P297 was later reclassified as R1b-M269 if I'm not mistaken.

Leeroy Jenkins
06-29-2015, 02:51 PM
Vučedol predates Beaker, and it was from Vučedol, Somogyvar, and Zok-Mako that Gimbutas said Beaker derived.

Congrats, btw. It looks like our speculations on R-M269's association with Vucedol, the steppes, Bell Beaker, etc. from this thread (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b/page2) may be correct, after all. :)

Krefter
06-29-2015, 02:56 PM
Could the R1b-M343 fellow be a false negative due to low SNP resolution, or could he be a descendant of one of the R1b-P297 found in Yamnaya? Though I think the R1b-P297 was later reclassified as R1b-M269 if I'm not mistaken.

Samples classified as very upstream clades: R1b, F, CT, etc., are almost always labelled that because they weren't tested for many downstream clades. This is the case of the P297 Yamnaya.

Krefter
06-29-2015, 03:02 PM
So...any theories on why J2 appears here but nowhere else in the earlier, same, or later periods? I'm also wondering what those F*s are...I think the most likely candidates are G and I, but if it's more J2 that'd be interesting.

IMO, the F*s are probably H or T. Most F*s are negative for G, I, J, K. In Haak 2015 they tested with more coverage and some old F*s turned into T and H.

jeanL
06-29-2015, 03:10 PM
Here is Table-5 from the dissertation:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Table-5_zpsvs9kzedk.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Table-5_zpsvs9kzedk.jpg.html)

There is an incredibly low frequency of mt-DNA H in Early Neolithic samples from the Carpathian Basin. Notices that even in LBK combined sample(n=150) the frequency of H is 20%. mt-DNA Haplogroup T2 has a greater frequency than mt-DNA Haplogroup H. Here is what the author says about mt-DNA H:


Haplogroup H could not be further differentiated in our analyses focusing on the HVS-I, and HVS-II parts of the mtDNA. Some subgroups of H might have come with the first farmers to Europe, as it has been assumed recently by P. Brotherton and his colleges (Brotherton et al., 2013), whereas others might signalize forager genetic substrate. Complete mitochondrial genome analyses could answer this question.

MfA
06-29-2015, 03:26 PM
Thanks

What does F* represent?

is it from the area noted from this very very recent updated simplified map?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89#/media/File:Haplogroup_F_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

I think some of the F* samples might break down further to IJ, J, H, LT, if respected SNPs could have been tested.

http://abload.de/img/szecsenyi-nagy_mfa1grzt.png

jeanL
06-29-2015, 03:27 PM
Coincidently here are some interestings map when it comes to Fst genetic distance using HVR-I of mt-DNA Haplogroups.

Starcevo

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-30_zpse18rekze.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-30_zpse18rekze.jpg.html)


LBK

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-31_zpsdza2i45t.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-31_zpsdza2i45t.jpg.html)

Lengyel

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-32_zpsf6xzmpaq.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-32_zpsf6xzmpaq.jpg.html)

Sopot

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-33.jpg_zpsmietop8a.png (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-33.jpg_zpsmietop8a.png.html)

Balaton-Lasinja

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-34_zpsdb07tptu.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Figure-34_zpsdb07tptu.jpg.html)

Notice the two obvious genetic outliers when it comes to greatest Fst distances?

Basque Country/Aquitaine and Finland/Northwest Russia

Thoughts?

Sangarius
06-29-2015, 03:43 PM
Does that mean they were flat backs or round back skulls?

The "Taurid type" is also called the "Dinaric type" and described as flat headed, with long faces and large convex noses. Carlton Coon noted that a certain part of Bell Beaker belonged to this type.
I'm quite certain that this type is associated with J2..

Anyway, here is an example of a "Dinaric" Beaker from England: (source: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/beaker-people-parkerpearson)

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/beaker-people-parkerpearson/Bee_Lowbanner.jpg

parasar
06-29-2015, 03:56 PM
Some J2 from Neolithic Europe finally!

J Man,

I had thought Y-J will be found and likely as old as Y-I in Europe.

parasar
06-29-2015, 04:12 PM
It is possible that it is just F.

Based on a Haak Starcevo sample, I would say likely H2.
Haak et al. "Haplogroup H2 is detected in an early Neolithic Starcevo individual"

J Man
06-29-2015, 04:13 PM
J Man,

I had thought Y-J will be found and likely as old as Y-I in Europe.

Y-I in Europe has shown up in Mesolithic European remains while the earliest that Y-J has shown up so far is Neolithic which is much younger.

parasar
06-29-2015, 04:23 PM
Y-I in Europe has shown up in Mesolithic European remains while the earliest that Y-J has shown up so far is Neolithic which is much younger.

True.
But the progression shows we are getting there - first absent, then bronze, and then pre-metal. It will have a more SE/Mediterranean spread, no doubt, as we have to consider I's absence in India.

J Man
06-29-2015, 04:32 PM
True.
But the progression shows we are getting there - first absent, then bronze, and then pre-metal. It will have a more SE/Mediterranean spread, no doubt, as we have to consider I's absence in India.

We need some Mesolithic and Neolithic Y-DNA from Greece and Anatolia badly.

ADW_1981
06-29-2015, 04:38 PM
The "Taurid type" is also called the "Dinaric type" and described as flat headed, with long faces and large convex noses. Carlton Coon noted that a certain part of Bell Beaker belonged to this type.
I'm quite certain that this type is associated with J2..


I have a suspicion that convex noses might have been associated with the neolithic Europeans, and through association the Middle Eastern farmers. Although this seems to cover several different male lineages and innumerable female one. North-Central Europeans tend to have more pointed noses, or in some cases a snub, short nose on average.

Both sides of my father's lineage (Z220 + mtDNA I2) have narrow, convex/aquiline noses. It could be more of an overt stereotype. Nobody I know in my family has a flat back of the head. From the shape of the skull, it could be that the forehead is very narrow which is common among Europeans, making the back of the skull seem wider than it really is

alan
06-29-2015, 04:40 PM
I have seen earlier dates than 2500 BC for BB Csepel ....

Much though I would like the simplicity of really early beaker dates in Hungary, from what I have read the early Csepel dates have been chucked out as being from an unsafe context and/or material.

alan
06-29-2015, 04:47 PM
The day we get the missing L51 link in ancient DNA we should all go into the virtual pub and have a few synchronized beers

Kale
06-29-2015, 04:50 PM
IMO, the F*s are probably H or T. Most F*s are negative for G, I, J, K. In Haak 2015 they tested with more coverage and some old F*s turned into T and H.

Yes, but the F* is 6/13 in Lengyel. I'd be impressed if it were all H and T. I'm think I'm going to lean more on bad coverage, i.e. the snps for G and I weren't there, not that they were there and negative.

Agamemnon
06-29-2015, 05:39 PM
E-M78 and J2-M172 from Sopot and Lengyel, things are getting even more interesting... Lengyel is a Middle Neolithic culture culture if I'm not mistaken, it's a shame we don't know which branch of J2 we're dealing with here (the same counts for E-M78, though E-V13 is a strong contender) as it could prove crucial to our understanding of J2's history in Europe.

rms2
06-29-2015, 05:41 PM
The "Taurid type" is also called the "Dinaric type" and described as flat headed, with long faces and large convex noses. Carlton Coon noted that a certain part of Bell Beaker belonged to this type.
I'm quite certain that this type is associated with J2..

Anyway, here is an example of a "Dinaric" Beaker from England: (source: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/beaker-people-parkerpearson)

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/archaeology/research/directory/beaker-people-parkerpearson/Bee_Lowbanner.jpg

What makes you think it is associated with J2? Thus far all y-dna results from Beaker have been R1b.

rms2
06-29-2015, 05:44 PM
E-M78 and J2-M172 from Sopot and Lengyel, things are getting even more interesting... Lengyel is a Middle Neolithic culture culture if I'm not mistaken, it's a shame we don't know which branch of J2 we're dealing with here (the same counts for E-M78, though E-V13 is a strong contender) as it could prove crucial to our understanding of J2's history in Europe.

And those remains date from the 5th millennium BC. Lengyel and Sopot were sedentary farming cultures that succeeded LBK, right? The Wikipedia (cough!) article on Lengyel says it was part of what Gimbutas called "Old Europe", i.e., the supposedly pacific farmers with a somewhat matriarchal orientation and lots of female figurines.

rms2
06-29-2015, 06:07 PM
This paper (http://teo.elte.hu/minosites/tezis2012_angol/k_kohler.pdf) is a thesis statement for a planned doctoral dissertation entitled, BIOLOGICAL RECONSTRUCTION OF THE LATE NEOLITHIC
LENGYEL CULTURE.

Apparently the author studied remains from the large Lengyel cemetery at "the site of Alsónyék-Bátaszék, in southeastern Transdanubia".

The author discusses some of the anthropological data, including the following (re skull shapes):



The morphometric analysis of the Alsónyék population presents a significant
heterogeneity with the dominance of dolicho-, and hyperdolichocran headed and leptoprosop
faced individuals. Due to the mosaic-like distribution of individual sizes and indices, the
classification of them into concrete variants was not possible.

Dolichocrania is suggestive of a Mediterranean physical type, and sure enough here is a comment on that also from page 5:



The present analysis of the Alsónyék population suggests the dominance of the gracile mediterranean variant within the
Lengyel population.

This would seem to contradict the idea of an association between J2 and the Taurid plano-occiptal Steilkopf skulls found among the thus-far solidly R1b Beaker people.

Agamemnon
06-29-2015, 06:13 PM
And those remains date from the 5th millennium BC. Lengyel and Sopot were sedentary farming cultures that succeeded LBK, right? The Wikipedia (cough!) article on Lengyel says it was part of what Gimbutas called "Old Europe", i.e., the supposedly pacific farmers with a somewhat matriarchal orientation and lots of female figurines.

Yes, it seems that the Lengyel culture was a Middle-Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic culture which emerged out of LBK... The problem here is that, considering all the LBK results to date, J2-M172 and E-M78 look like newcomers (less so for E-M78, since we have an E-V13 sample from the Avellaner cave dating back to roughly the same era). The true questions we should be asking here IMHO is which J2 branch we're looking at in particular and where did it come from.

As far as "Old Europe" goes, I find the whole notion obsolete as the Neolithic was an era of widespread violence, this is especially true of the LBK which had fortified settlements (in fact, it seems that Lengyel inherited the same circular ditches from LBK). The matriarchal nature of these societies is also debatable at best. In all likeliness, life under what Gimbutas called "Old Europe" wasn't all that dissimilar from the kind of life led by the Papuans, the Maoris or even countless Mesoamerican empires which were stone age cultures, technically-speaking (they also shared many traits in common, such as the tendency to live in fortified settlements, endless/low-intensity warfare, ritual cannibalism, etc).

J Man
06-29-2015, 06:20 PM
What makes you think it is associated with J2? Thus far all y-dna results from Beaker have been R1b.

He may be basing his observations on the modern distribution of haplogroup J2 and skull shapes which is probably not really a good idea.

rms2
06-29-2015, 06:28 PM
Apparently one of the more famous female figurines is attributed to the Lengyel Culture: the Venus of Falkenstein (http://memim.com/lengyel-culture.html).



The Venus of Falkenstein is a painted, 13 cm high statuette of the Lengyel Culture and comes about from the time of 4500 BC. On the sculpture, which was found in Schanz ground in the Castle Falkenstein, both a yellow painting of the skin as well as an apron, hair, belt and a trailer under the breast can be seen. The head is abstracted and sits on an overly long neck. Since 29 September 2009, the Venusfigurine can be seen in the Museum of Prehistory of Lower Austria in Castle Asparn. Two almost identical figures there from the find site Střelice u Jevišovic in South Moravia.

J Man
06-29-2015, 06:33 PM
And those remains date from the 5th millennium BC. Lengyel and Sopot were sedentary farming cultures that succeeded LBK, right? The Wikipedia (cough!) article on Lengyel says it was part of what Gimbutas called "Old Europe", i.e., the supposedly pacific farmers with a somewhat matriarchal orientation and lots of female figurines.

It is quite unlikely that the cultures of "Old Europe" were matriarchal and wholly peaceful. There was a study done on LBK groups a few years back in which the authors came to the conclusion that the LBK farmers were patrilocal and as a result of that likely also patriarchal. There was also widespread violence during the Neolithic period in Europe as well. Gimbutas was way off about some things. Part of that is likely because she is a feminist. I can link the study I mentioned above after I get off work.

rms2
06-29-2015, 06:36 PM
Here's another female figurine from Lengyel (http://www.aggsbach.de/2012/12/female-figurine-from-eggendorf-am-walde-hobarthmuseum-horn/), this one from Eggendorf am Walde in Austria.

rms2
06-29-2015, 06:39 PM
It is quite unlikely that the cultures of "Old Europe" were matriarchal and wholly peaceful. There was a study done on LBK groups a few years back in which the authors came to the conclusion that the LBK farmers were patrilocal and as a result of that likely also patriarchal. There was also widespread violence during the Neolithic period in Europe as well. Gimbutas was way off about some things. Part of that is likely because she is a feminist. I can link the study I mentioned above after I get off work.

Gimbutas was good on a lot of things, too, but she did go off the deep end on the whole "Mother Goddess" of idyllic Old Europe schtick.

It does look like Lengyel was a Near Eastern derived population, or at least Mediterranean in ultimate origin. And they did apparently have a thing for goddesses or at least female fertility figurines.

ChrisR
06-29-2015, 06:50 PM
5030-4840 BC Neolithic Sopot Culture in Hungary (sample ALE14) in Szecsenyi-Nagy 2015 is J2-M172;
5000-4300 BC? Neolithic Lengyel Culture in Hungary (sample FEB3) in Szecsenyi-Nagy 2015 is J2-M172;
Without further evidence I strongly suspect those two are some sublineage of J2b-L283 (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a1). YFull estimates L283 to have diversified 9800 ybp (http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/) (because of missing L283* sequences the age could be younger) and very likely L283 derived men were in Europe well before Bronze Age. The diversity in South-Eastern Europe since a long time indicates L283 (or a sublineage) to be the "oldest" European J2.
See also
1209-1009 BC late Bronze Age Norabak Culture in Armenia (sample RISE408) in Allentoft et al. 2015 is J2b-M241>L283>Z600(xYP1,YP6)

Agamemnon
06-29-2015, 06:52 PM
Gimbutas was good on a lot of things, too, but she did go off the deep end on the whole "Mother Goddess" of idyllic Old Europe schtick.

It does look like Lengyel was a Near Eastern derived population, or at least Mediterranean in ultimate origin. And they did apparently have a thing for goddesses or at least female fertility figurines.

I agree, nobody is perfect... It seems Gimbutas was right about many things, but as a wise man once said: Errare humanum est!

Oh, and the Aztecs also had a keen interest in fertility goddesses (such as Chalchiuhtlicue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalchiuhtlicue), Coatlicue (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coatlicue) and Cihuacoatl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cihuacoatl)), and yet "peaceful" isn't exactly the first word which comes to mind when someone mentions them ;)


Without further evidence I strongly suspect those two are some sublineage of J2b-L283 (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a1). YFull estimates L283 to have diversified 9800 ybp (http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/) (because of missing L283* sequences the age could be younger) and very likely L283 derived men were in Europe well before Bronze Age. The diversity in South-Eastern Europe since a long time indicates L283 (or a sublineage) to be the "oldest" European J2.
See also

This is also what I suspect, unfortunately we simply cannot be sure at this point.

Anglecynn
06-29-2015, 06:55 PM
The day we get the missing L51 link in ancient DNA we should all go into the virtual pub and have a few synchronized beers

In Beakers. :P

vettor
06-29-2015, 07:02 PM
So...any theories on why J2 appears here but nowhere else in the earlier, same, or later periods? I'm also wondering what those F*s are...I think the most likely candidates are G and I, but if it's more J2 that'd be interesting.

I read, it states further deeper testing is required for the many F*, but one is H1 ( ydna) with the M69 snp ............some one here states they are all H and T ( i am talking ydna for both )

we need to wait longer

vettor
06-29-2015, 07:05 PM
IMO, the F*s are probably H or T. Most F*s are negative for G, I, J, K. In Haak 2015 they tested with more coverage and some old F*s turned into T and H.

Thanks, as I read, one is definitely H1-M69

vettor
06-29-2015, 07:11 PM
Yes, but the F* is 6/13 in Lengyel. I'd be impressed if it were all H and T. I'm think I'm going to lean more on bad coverage, i.e. the snps for G and I weren't there, not that they were there and negative.

the test already noted 3x G2 and I in the area of lengyel , I would find it odd that they can find some of these and not others ( G and I ) from F*
I would not rule out L as also being there.

Motzart
06-29-2015, 07:17 PM
Dolichocrania is suggestive of a Mediterranean physical type


Otzi was actually somewhat mesocephalic. Mesolithic HGs were very dolichocephalic, Loschbour for example was extreme dolicho.

rms2
06-29-2015, 07:20 PM
Otzi was actually somewhat mesocephalic. Mesolithic HGs were very dolichocephalic, Loschbour for example was extreme dolicho.

Of course, dolichocrania is not the sole factor in the Mediterranean designation. I believe a lot of the Corded Ware bodies were longheaded, as well, but they had much larger, more robust skeletons that cannot be classed as Mediterranean.

J Man
06-29-2015, 07:33 PM
Here's another female figurine from Lengyel (http://www.aggsbach.de/2012/12/female-figurine-from-eggendorf-am-walde-hobarthmuseum-horn/), this one from Eggendorf am Walde in Austria.

Here is the link that I promised I would post.

http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2012/05/rip-matrilocal-egalitarian-early.html

Sangarius
06-29-2015, 07:34 PM
What makes you think it is associated with J2? Thus far all y-dna results from Beaker have been R1b.

I don't associate Beaker with J2, but the brachycephalic Taurid type together with a West-Asian/Caucasus autosomal profile. At least for the spread of this phenotype in West-Asia.



This paper (http://teo.elte.hu/minosites/tezis2012_angol/k_kohler.pdf) is a thesis statement for a planned doctoral dissertation entitled, BIOLOGICAL RECONSTRUCTION OF THE LATE NEOLITHIC
LENGYEL CULTURE.

Apparently the author studied remains from the large Lengyel cemetery at "the site of Alsónyék-Bátaszék, in southeastern Transdanubia".

The author discusses some of the anthropological data, including the following (re skull shapes):



Dolichocrania is suggestive of a Mediterranean physical type, and sure enough here is a comment on that also from page 5:



This would seem to contradict the idea of an association between J2 and the Taurid plano-occiptal Steilkopf skulls found among the thus-far solidly R1b Beaker people.


The author talks of a significant heterogeneity among the samples, which you seam simply to disregard. The "dominance of dolicho-, and hyperdolichocrany" among a very heterogenic population, where J2 is only a minor lineage, does not contradict the association between J2 and the brachycephalic Taurid type that I hypothesized.



He may be basing his observations on the modern distribution of haplogroup J2 and skull shapes which is probably not really a good idea.

True. But not the worst idea, either. :-p

Trojet
06-29-2015, 07:35 PM
It seems like the likeliest candidate for those two J2 samples is J2b-L283, especially considering that they also found two E-M78 samples which would most likely be E-V13. E-V13 and J2b seem to follow similar distribution patterns across SE Europe. Hopefully we will know for sure and they wouldn't leave us guessing though.

parasar
06-29-2015, 07:37 PM
Thanks, as I read, one is definitely H1-M69

vettor,
All the ones with a read at M69 are ancestral t. Supplementary Table 5
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

The prehistoric presence of F* is difficult to interpret through the modern NRY data.
It might represent a type that has become extinct or significantly decreased during the last
seven millennia. Although this haplogroup is not very diverse, further analyses would be
needed, in order to test for the subhaplogroups of F (F1-2) in the ancient samples. The
subgroups of F have not been well studied, F1 is mainly known from the Indian subcontinent
[Sri Lanka, (Karafet et al., 2008)], and F2 is from China [Lahu tribe, (Sengupta et al., 2006)].
Other subgroups (F-P96 [F3], and F-P254 [F4]) have an uncertain phylogenetic position, and
have been recently reordered (www.isogg.org). The NRY haplogroup H belongs to the F*
paragroup, which was not screened by the GenoY25 multiplex assay. I designed a singleplex
PCR for the typing of the M69 position, which defined the H haplogroup on the ISOGG Y-tree
in 2012. The Y tree has been recently restructured, and M69 has become a marker of H1. One
Starčevo sample (BAM25) has been ordered to the H2 haplogroup recently, based on deep
sequencing data (Haak et al., 2015). Consequently, the Neolithic NRY diversity of the F*
haplogroups is difficult to presume, further SNP typing or rather whole Y-chromosomal
analyses would help in this issue.

rms2
06-29-2015, 07:45 PM
. . .

The author talks of a significant heterogeneity among the samples, which you seam simply to disregard. The "dominance of dolicho-, and hyperdolichocrany" among a very heterogenic population, where J2 is only a minor lineage, does not contradict the association between J2 and the brachycephalic Taurid type that I hypothesized.

. . .

I don't disregard it, but she never mentions a single Taurid-type skull among those in Lengyel, and the first author I cited, Zoffman, says Taurid-type skulls were unknown in the Carpathian Basin prior to Beaker. The second author, Köhler, also said the gracile, Mediterrean physical type was dominant in Lengyel. Both things run counter to what you have suggested.



Contrary to the continuity of autochtonous populations in the southern part of the Hungarian Plain, new, alien populational
groups appeared in the central and western parts of the Carpathian Basin. The people of the so-called Bell-beaker
culture occupied a large part of Europe, while in the Carpathian Basin they lived within a limited territory for a short
time and did not mix with the local population, according to archaeology. Although there are very few evaluable
anthropological finds from the biritual cemeteries of the Bell-beakers in the Carpathian Basin, the appearance of the characteristic
planoccipital Taurid type, unknown until then from the Carpathian Basin, in the populations of some later cultures (e.g. Kisapostag and
Gáta-Wieselburg cultures) suggests a mixture with the local population against the archaeological theories. According to archaeology,
the populational groups of the Bell-beakers also took part in the formation of the Gáta-Wieselburg culture on the western fringes of the
Carpathian Basin, which is also attested to by the Penrose identities between the Gáta-Wieselburg and the Bell-beaker
series in Moravia and Germany.


The present analysis of the Alsónyék population suggests the dominance of the gracile mediterranean variant within the
Lengyel population.

Jean M
06-29-2015, 07:45 PM
Yes, it seems that the Lengyel culture was a Middle-Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic culture which emerged out of LBK... The problem here is that, considering all the LBK results to date, J2-M172 and E-M78 look like newcomers

The assumption among archaeologists of the anti-migrationist orthodoxy has been that every later Neolithic culture of Central Europe emerged from the LBK. This has turned out to be short-sighted. We can now see from several strands of evidence that the LBK was a case of boom and bust. Its population crashed. (Radio-carbon dates.) A number of mtDNA haplogroups in the LBK vanished from the scene. There were incomers in the Middle/Late Neolithic. That was the conclusion of Brandt 2013 (see below), supported by more recent genome-wide studies.

5086

I suspect that Lengyel had a fresh infusion of farmers up the Danube, who brought dairy farming.

5087

Jean M
06-29-2015, 08:43 PM
This is what author talks about J2 samples, p.142 ... About E-M78 sample ... If so, I think there is a chance that sample might be V13.

I agree. I think credit is due to Fulvio Cruciani and his team for their paper back in 2007: Tracing past human male movements in northern/eastern Africa and western Eurasia: new clues from Y-chromosomal haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12: http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.abstract

Extracts:


As to a western Asia-Europe connection, our data suggest that western Asians carrying E-V13 may have reached the Balkans any time after 17.0 ky ago, but expanded into Europe not earlier than 5.3 ky ago. Accordingly, the allele frequency peak is located in Europe, whereas the distribution of microsatellite allele variance shows a maximum in western Asia. Based on previously published data ..., we observed that another haplogroup, J-M12, shows a frequency distribution within Europe similar to that observed for E-V13....

Though large, the confidence intervals for the coalescence of both haplogroups E-V13 and JM12 in Europe exclude the expansions following the Last Glacial Maximum, or the Younger Dryas. Our estimated coalescence age of about 4.5 ky for haplogroups E-V13 and J-M12 in Europe (and their C.I.s) would also exclude a demographic expansion associated with the introduction of agriculture from Anatolia and would place this event at the beginning of the Balkan Bronze Age....

Thus the present work discloses a further level of complexity in the interpretation of the genetic landscape of southeastern Europe, this being to a large extent, the consequence of a recent population increase in situ rather than the result of a mere flow of western Asian migrants in the early Neolithic

J Man
06-29-2015, 08:54 PM
Now even though the LBK and derived cultures in Europe were likely patrilocal and probably also patrilineal and patriarchal that does not mean that all farming and horticultural societies throughout the globe in the past were that way. Indeed a number of traditional agricultural and horticultural societies were/are matrilocal and matrilineal such as the Iroquois. So I can see why Gimbutas may have though that all of the Neolithic cultures of ''Old Europe'' may have been matriarchal. Maybe a few of them actually did have matriarchal or matrilineal tendencies. There probably was variety between groups just like there probably was variety among the hunter-gatherers that preceded them.

Chad Rohlfsen
06-29-2015, 09:23 PM
Yes, it seems that the Lengyel culture was a Middle-Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic culture which emerged out of LBK... The problem here is that, considering all the LBK results to date, J2-M172 and E-M78 look like newcomers (less so for E-M78, since we have an E-V13 sample from the Avellaner cave dating back to roughly the same era). The true questions we should be asking here IMHO is which J2 branch we're looking at in particular and where did it come from.

As far as "Old Europe" goes, I find the whole notion obsolete as the Neolithic was an era of widespread violence, this especially true of the LBK which had fortified settlements (in fact, it seems that Lengyel inherited the same circular ditches from LBK). The matriarchal nature of these societies is also debatable at best. In all likeliness, life under what Gimbutas called "Old Europe" wasn't all that dissimilar from the kind of life led by the Papuans, the Maoris or even countless Mesoamerican empires which were stone age cultures, technically-speaking (they also shared many traits in common, such as the tendency to live in fortified settlements, endless/low-intensity warfare, ritual cannibalism, etc).

I agree. It's hard to call Neolithic cultures Matriarchal when it is the male lines that are much less numerous than the female. Plus, we had that paper where it was what, 17 mating females to every male in Neolithic Europe? Sounds more like a harem. They may have been quite the male chauvinists. A Matriarchal society should have very few mtDNA lines, you would think.

Anabasis
06-29-2015, 09:27 PM
The most important of the study which took my interest is the fst maps of YDNA and MtDNA lines with modern populations. It seems middle Neolithic of Europe and Balkans popuated with modern Trans Caucasian and Mesopotamian paternal and maternal lines.

5088

5089

5090

nuadha
06-29-2015, 09:42 PM
And those remains date from the 5th millennium BC. Lengyel and Sopot were sedentary farming cultures that succeeded LBK, right? The Wikipedia (cough!) article on Lengyel says it was part of what Gimbutas called "Old Europe", i.e., the supposedly pacific farmers with a somewhat matriarchal orientation and lots of female figurines.

Ya, i wouldn't be quoting her too much. Her social ideas were incredibly off.

Recent dna and isotopic analysis do not support her conjecture that pre yamnaya waves of immigrants from the steppe swept into central europe and the balkans. At least that seems to be the case in hungary. So far a hungarian copper age sample has looked completely neolithic in terms of autosomal dna and the isotopic study from Gerling noted local signatures for the copper age and non local signatures from the east with the arrival of yamnaya.

Basically, her old europe vs pre yamnaya kurgans is wrong.

Krefter
06-29-2015, 10:06 PM
Thanks, as I read, one is definitely H1-M69

I didn't notice that, thanks for pointing it out.

nuadha
06-29-2015, 10:12 PM
I agree. It's hard to call Neolithic cultures Matriarchal when it is the male lines that are much less numerous than the female. Plus, we had that paper where it was what, 17 mating females to every male in Neolithic Europe? Sounds more like a harem. They may have been quite the male chauvinists. A Matriarchal society should have very few mtDNA lines, you would think.

Why would polygamy have anything to do with male chainism? Polygamy means that many males have been deemed unworthy to reproduce which by the same thinking should spell female chauvinism.

Also, we can't actually rely totally on lineage diversity to tell us the relative sizes of the mating pool. There is a paper which contends that even if the mating pool of men and women were the same, the ydna would show less diversity and less lineages.

Motzart
06-29-2015, 10:15 PM
I agree. It's hard to call Neolithic cultures Matriarchal when it is the male lines that are much less numerous than the female. Plus, we had that paper where it was what, 17 mating females to every male in Neolithic Europe? Sounds more like a harem. They may have been quite the male chauvinists. A Matriarchal society should have very few mtDNA lines, you would think.

Its fun to imagine 5 foot 1 Otzi running around with his copper axe & bow, killing bears, and coming home to his 17 wives.

Add to that, covered in tattoos.

alan
06-29-2015, 11:20 PM
Yes, it seems that the Lengyel culture was a Middle-Late Neolithic/Early Chalcolithic culture which emerged out of LBK... The problem here is that, considering all the LBK results to date, J2-M172 and E-M78 look like newcomers (less so for E-M78, since we have an E-V13 sample from the Avellaner cave dating back to roughly the same era). The true questions we should be asking here IMHO is which J2 branch we're looking at in particular and where did it come from.

As far as "Old Europe" goes, I find the whole notion obsolete as the Neolithic was an era of widespread violence, this is especially true of the LBK which had fortified settlements (in fact, it seems that Lengyel inherited the same circular ditches from LBK). The matriarchal nature of these societies is also debatable at best. In all likeliness, life under what Gimbutas called "Old Europe" wasn't all that dissimilar from the kind of life led by the Papuans, the Maoris or even countless Mesoamerican empires which were stone age cultures, technically-speaking (they also shared many traits in common, such as the tendency to live in fortified settlements, endless/low-intensity warfare, ritual cannibalism, etc).

Could it relate to the pastoralism which spread from NW Anatolia c. 5500BC slowly across Europe in the following 1500 years.

alan
06-29-2015, 11:26 PM
The assumption among archaeologists of the anti-migrationist orthodoxy has been that every later Neolithic culture of Central Europe emerged from the LBK. This has turned out to be short-sighted. We can now see from several strands of evidence that the LBK was a case of boom and bust. Its population crashed. (Radio-carbon dates.) A number of mtDNA haplogroups in the LBK vanished from the scene. There were incomers in the Middle/Late Neolithic. That was the conclusion of Brandt 2013 (see below), supported by more recent genome-wide studies.

5086

I suspect that Lengyel had a fresh infusion of farmers up the Danube, who brought dairy farming.

5087

Exactly what I was thinking. We once pondered about R1b and dairy but perhaps there was a change as dairy spread from NW Anatolia to east Bulgaria then on through Europe but it was J and other new lineages rather than R1b.

Agamemnon
06-29-2015, 11:31 PM
Could it relate to the pastoralism which spread from NW Anatolia c. 5500BC slowly across Europe in the following 1500 years.

This is a distinct possibility as far as J2 is of concern, but we'll need more data to tell (along with a more refined analysis of these samples).

Krefter
06-29-2015, 11:38 PM
I've put all the new Y DNA from this study into my Ancient Y DNA spreadsheet. It's incredible there are now 92 Y DNA samples from Neolithic Europe. All are G2a, I2, F*(H, T?), C(C1a2), H, T1a, E1b-M78, I1, J2, R(xR1b-L51, R1a1a), and R1b1c. Y DNA from likely LN/BA EEF-strongholds in North Italy and Hungary are also mostly I2a and G2a. The vast majority though are from Hungary and Germany.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12G2cfjG0wHWarsl5bB99ridFmvUWzqlZfZ6_e_R6oIA/edit#gid=1740513758


I can't find the exact location of all the new samples or their cultural affiliation.

alan
06-29-2015, 11:58 PM
This is a distinct possibility as far as J2 is of concern, but we'll need more data to tell (along with a more refined analysis of these samples).

It could be that J was not a factor among the earliest farmers simply because they appear to have come from the Levant rather than Anatolia. The J2 could perhaps be associated with the inland-Anatolia farmer element that reached NW Anatolia and then the spread of pastoralism into Bulgaria from there c. 5500BC and then a gradual spread though Europe. i also suspect that the NW Anatolian Agach epi-gravettian-like hunter element who the farmers mixed with when reached there could have brought carried I and spread it along with J into Europe.

As for E I would suspect that it was present in Cardial and of course Cardial/Impressed ware did have a presence along the Adriatic coast of the Balkans. However there are possible pre-farming links between the Levant and Greece and I wouldnt rule out E being involved in that either.

Agamemnon
06-30-2015, 12:14 AM
It could be that J was not a factor among the earliest farmers simply because they appear to have come from the Levant rather than Anatolia. The J2 could perhaps be associated with the inland-Anatolia farmer element that reached NW Anatolia and then the spread of pastoralism into Bulgaria from there c. 5500BC and then a gradual spread though Europe. i also suspect that the NW Anatolian Agach epi-gravettian-like hunter element who the farmers mixed with when reached there could have brought carried I and spread it along with J into Europe.

As for E I would suspect that it was present in Cardial and of course Cardial/Impressed ware did have a presence along the Adriatic coast of the Balkans. However there are possible pre-farming links between the Levant and Greece and I wouldnt rule out E being involved in that either.

I've said this before, but I think it needs to be reiterated: As long as we have no genomic data from the Near East, everything we say about the origin and departure point of a given haplogroup is an educated guess at best. An association between J and a WHG-like population would make sense, but again, the data is lacking.
There are many possibilities out there, J2's history seems particularly complex and I bet a lot of models will be subsequently overturned by several discoveries.

E-V13 spreading with Cardial Ware is also possible, but how this fits with the rest of M78 is a mystery which cannot be elucidated without the proper data. As you said, pre-farming links between the Levant and Greece could hint towards E-Z1919's entry in Europe.

rms2
06-30-2015, 03:01 AM
Ya, i wouldn't be quoting her too much. Her social ideas were incredibly off.

Recent dna and isotopic analysis do not support her conjecture that pre yamnaya waves of immigrants from the steppe swept into central europe and the balkans. At least that seems to be the case in hungary. So far a hungarian copper age sample has looked completely neolithic in terms of autosomal dna and the isotopic study from Gerling noted local signatures for the copper age and non local signatures from the east with the arrival of yamnaya.

Basically, her old europe vs pre yamnaya kurgans is wrong.

I cited a Wikipedia article that said Lengyel was part of what Gimbutas called "Old Europe". You guys are acting as if I authored the article. I didn't. Lengyel did produce a lot of female figurines, however, so there was a certain amount of goddess worship or at least the typical farmers' emphasis on the female fertility cult.

vettor
06-30-2015, 06:55 AM
vettor,
All the ones with a read at M69 are ancestral t. Supplementary Table 5
http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf

I presume you mean page 277

one F* does not have the t for M69 ( it is Tolm 3) .................also noted on post#42 of this thread

ChrisR
06-30-2015, 08:29 AM
There are many possibilities out there, J2's history seems particularly complex and I bet a lot of models will be subsequently overturned by several discoveries.
Exactly. If those two are indeed J2b-L283 the origin is not clear to me. IMO additionally to Middle East ancient DNA we also need ancient DNA and modern Y-sequences from the Eurasian Steppe and populations associated with it from all timeframes (Neolithic to Iron Age). See for example modern relative populations of RISE602 (Iron Age Altai J2a2) (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4651-Haplogroup-J2a-Iron-Age-Altai&p=92665&viewfull=1#post92665). Particularly of interest for the early J2 is the South Caspian area IMHO. I would not wonder if J2b-L283 and later other J2 sublineages did not come trough Anatolia or the Med.Sea to Europe (which so far seems the most plausible path)...

Trojet
06-30-2015, 11:40 AM
In my opinion, if those two late Neolithic J2 samples turn out as J2b-L283, then the J2b-L283 mutation most likely happened somewhere in SE Europe/Balkans. The small percentages of J2b-L283 samples in Anatolia can be explained by a backwards migration from SE Europe/Balkans.

The case for E-V13 originating in SE Europe/Balkans is even stronger now, as those two samples have to be E-V13 since that's all that we find in Europe as far as E haplogroup goes. Also the age of E-V13 is currently estimated at 8k years, and this Neolithic site from Hungary is from 6500-7000 years ago.

Bane
06-30-2015, 01:17 PM
In my opinion, if those two late Neolithic J2 samples turn out as J2b-L283, then the J2b-L283 mutation most likely happened somewhere in SE Europe/Balkans. The small percentages of J2b-L283 samples in Anatolia can be explained by a backwards migration from SE Europe/Balkans.

The case for E-V13 originating in SE Europe/Balkans is even stronger now, as those two samples have to be E-V13 since that's all that we find in Europe as far as E haplogroup goes. Also the age of E-V13 is currently estimated at 8k years, and this Neolithic site from Hungary is from 6500-7000 years ago.

E-V13 from Spain may be an older one: Ancient DNA suggests the leading role played by men in the Neolithic dissemination (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3215063/)

Chad Rohlfsen
06-30-2015, 01:39 PM
http://www.academia.edu/4975314/CONSTANT_VARIABLE_AND_RANDOM_NETWORKS_A_BRONZE_AGE _BEGINNING

ChrisR
06-30-2015, 01:59 PM
In my opinion, if those two late Neolithic J2 samples turn out as J2b-L283, then the J2b-L283 mutation most likely happened somewhere in SE Europe/Balkans. The small percentages of J2b-L283 samples in Anatolia can be explained by a backwards migration from SE Europe/Balkans.
J2b-L283 and J2b-Z2444 ("Asian brother") (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a): It seems a similar question like for R1a-Z283 & Z93 and in part also R1b-L51 & Z2103 - where did the ancestor of this brother-lineages come from?
In the case of L283 I do not believe that L283 and all equiv. SNPs developed in SE Europe/Balkans since the ancestral M241 is shared with Z2444 which so far is not confirmed in populations west of India! It will be crucial to detect the geographic distribution of J2b-L283(xZ628) lineages, especially if and where they still exist in Black and Caspian Sea area (South and North). Not sure if we will find the smoking ancient gun with samples near to the first M241 or "developing" L283 and Z2444 samples.

Trojet
06-30-2015, 02:09 PM
J2b-L283 and J2b-Z2444 ("Asian brother") (http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a): It seems a similar question like for R1a-Z283 & Z93 and in part also R1b-L51 & Z2103 - where did the ancestor of this brother-lineages come from?
In the case of L283 I do not believe that L283 and all equiv. SNPs developed in SE Europe/Balkans since the ancestral M241 is shared with Z2444 which so far is not confirmed in populations west of India! It will be crucial to detect the geographic distribution of J2b-L283(xZ628) lineages, especially if and where they still exist in Black and Caspian Sea area (South and North). Not sure if we will find the smoking ancient gun with samples near to the first M241 or "developing" L283 and Z2444 samples.
Yes I am aware of the Asian brother Z2432 of L283 Chris :) but these two split (L283 and Z2432) 9800 years ago according to yfull. Considering that Z2432 has not been found yet west of the fertile crescent, then the split must have happened somewhere in Anatolia. So if not L283 then I would guess a near descendant by 8000 years ago was already in SE Balkans/Bulgaria. Again this theory of mine is assuming that those two late Neolithic (6500-7000 ya) samples in Hungary are indeed J2b-L283. I hate to play the guessing game without any proof though, so for now I will roll with this hypothesis :)

Piquerobi
06-30-2015, 03:32 PM
Ya, i wouldn't be quoting her too much. Her social ideas were incredibly off.

Recent dna and isotopic analysis do not support her conjecture that pre yamnaya waves of immigrants from the steppe swept into central europe and the balkans. At least that seems to be the case in hungary. So far a hungarian copper age sample has looked completely neolithic in terms of autosomal dna and the isotopic study from Gerling noted local signatures for the copper age and non local signatures from the east with the arrival of yamnaya.

Basically, her old europe vs pre yamnaya kurgans is wrong.

She was right about the basic picture though, the location of IE homelands and their impact. I myself was skeptical of it before DNA testing. When DNA testing began, and we learnt of R1a and R1b, when the timeframe of R1b in Western Europe became clear, when Neolithic sites turned out missing R1a and R1b-M269, when Neolithic remains turned out Sardinian like (kind of "mediterranean") all over Europe, signaling a clear instrusion from the steppes, I realized she was much ahead of her time. She got it when perhaps most people in the area were skeptical of it, and people like Renfrew still had an audience, and others still claimed Central Europe or Northern Europe as the IE urheimat. Now we know she managed to get the basic picture before DNA testing.

She is probably wrong when it comes to her 3 waves theory (Remedello, etc, are turning out Neolithic). She is probably wrong when stressing the alleged peacefulness of Old Europe (but at least it was in relation to IE, who were moving - and conquering - South Asia, parts of the Near East and Western Europe). Unlike David Anthony, she was probably right when stressing the military nature of IE expansions. If not for it, a y-DNA marker would not have become so widespread. A "fashion" spreads without a clear link to such a male genetic marker. Other factors may have played a role (including "fashion" like adoption of IE customs) but violence played a role.

That's why I find reading her now - even with her possible mistakes - much enlightening.

Trojet
06-30-2015, 04:18 PM
It will be crucial to detect the geographic distribution of J2b-L283(xZ628)
Those samples J2b-L283 xZ584, Z628 so far have only been found in Sardinia. What if that subclade (J2b-L283 xZ584,Z628) represents an earlier offshoot of J2b-L283 and somehow made it to Sardinia. Maybe it was present in the past in the SE Europe too, but somehow that lineage never survived in SE Europe, therefore not found besides Sardinia.
http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a1

Motzart
06-30-2015, 07:05 PM
I cited a Wikipedia article that said Lengyel was part of what Gimbutas called "Old Europe". You guys are acting as if I authored the article. I didn't. Lengyel did produce a lot of female figurines, however, so there was a certain amount of goddess worship or at least the typical farmers' emphasis on the female fertility cult.

The Venus figurines date back to the Gravettian in Europe and are also found alongside Mal'ta boy's culture in Siberia, so I wouldn't call it a farmer fertility cult. More like a Pan-Eurasian Paleolithic fertility cult, but inferring that they had a fertility cult just because of some figurines is a stretch. Its impossible to discern what these figurines were really used for, or if they even had a purpose at all. Anybody claiming to know is full of S*** (e.g. Gimbustas).

J Man
06-30-2015, 07:25 PM
The Venus figurines date back to the Gravettian in Europe and are also found alongside Mal'ta boy's culture in Siberia, so I wouldn't call it a farmer fertility cult. More like a Pan-Eurasian Paleolithic fertility cult, but inferring that they had a fertility cult just because of some figurines is a stretch. Its impossible to discern what these figurines were really used for, or if they even had a purpose at all. Anybody claiming to know is full of S*** (e.g. Gimbustas).

Yes the Venus figurines have been found throughout Eurasia and they have roots in Upper Paleolithic times.

alan
06-30-2015, 07:59 PM
The Venus figurines date back to the Gravettian in Europe and are also found alongside Mal'ta boy's culture in Siberia, so I wouldn't call it a farmer fertility cult. More like a Pan-Eurasian Paleolithic fertility cult, but inferring that they had a fertility cult just because of some figurines is a stretch. Its impossible to discern what these figurines were really used for, or if they even had a purpose at all. Anybody claiming to know is full of S*** (e.g. Gimbustas).

I think its pretty well been proven that farmers were patrilocal too and there is plenty of evidence of violence. Figurines should probably be looked at in the way that modern patriarchal Roman Catholic societies have Mary statues and pictures in their homes. Certainly I think Gimbutas got this wrong. There is a long pattern in prehistory and history of the vulnerability of advanced, settled, cereal growing societies to mobile, less advanced pastoral groups on their fringes. It just comes with the territory and was cyclical. Mesopotamian history shows this phenomenon again and again for example. Short of an advanced standing army its very hard to counter mobile raiders who can slowly wear down and weaken more advanced groups with hit and run.

alan
06-30-2015, 08:02 PM
There is of course evidence for goddesses in IE, especially western ones and especially Celts and Italics. The land and rivers in particular seem to have been seen as female.

avalon
06-30-2015, 08:21 PM
Here is Table-5 from the dissertation:

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Table-5_zpsvs9kzedk.jpg (http://s1133.photobucket.com/user/jeanlohizun/media/Szeacutecseacutenyi-Nagy.et.al.2015-Table-5_zpsvs9kzedk.jpg.html)

There is an incredibly low frequency of mt-DNA H in Early Neolithic samples from the Carpathian Basin. Notices that even in LBK combined sample(n=150) the frequency of H is 20%. mt-DNA Haplogroup T2 has a greater frequency than mt-DNA Haplogroup H. Here is what the author says about mt-DNA H:

Isn't that 20% figure for mtDNA H Early Neolithic almost exactly in line with the Brotherton paper from 2013. I don't think 20% is that low, it's still the second haplogroup in the LBK samples.

In any case, thanks for highlighting the mtDNA data. It's often the case at anthrogenica that mtDNA has to play second fiddle to the y-DNA discussions.

vettor
07-01-2015, 06:13 PM
In regards to the many F* noted on this paper , of which F* = F-M89 , the following 2015 paper could lead to some explanation
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2014285a.html

the suppTable paper with the tested ydna is interesting .................note the very many R1a Turkmens
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/extref/ejhg2014285x3.pdf

yxc
07-01-2015, 06:26 PM
where is the proof that Bronze Age R1b in southernmost Hungary had came from the Black Sea Steppe through the Iron Gates or the Carpathian mountains where there supposedly was first instance of this coming 'mass migration'.
More logically they had departed from the north in Czech-Slovakia.

Just because genomed 3300BC MN's from eastern GER. had no 'ANE admixture' and R1 was found just ~2500 BC doesnt mean such a Timeline is valid for all of the East- and northern-european agrarian Lands.

ADW_1981
07-01-2015, 07:35 PM
A new study on Albanians has a very substantial subset of L51* haplotypes, probably larger than I have ever seen. One can almost envision a branch moving down from Vučedol and forming the Illyrian group.

ChrisR
07-03-2015, 07:31 PM
Those samples J2b-L283 xZ584, Z628 so far have only been found in Sardinia. What if that subclade (J2b-L283 xZ584,Z628) represents an earlier offshoot of J2b-L283 and somehow made it to Sardinia. Maybe it was present in the past in the SE Europe too, but somehow that lineage never survived in SE Europe, therefore not found besides Sardinia.
http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a1
I think it is way too early to conclude this. Currently the number of Sardinian samples is almost the same in L283 then all the others (DTC, 1000 Genomes, etc.). Or even more impressive: 1661189/2/1194=695 so one out of 700 Sardinian males was sequenced in Francalacci et al 2015, from my experience ca. 1/3 of the Sardinian surnames should have a high-res Y-Sequence. We will need a long time to get such coverage for other regions...

vettor
07-03-2015, 08:36 PM
A new study on Albanians has a very substantial subset of L51* haplotypes, probably larger than I have ever seen. One can almost envision a branch moving down from Vučedol and forming the Illyrian group.

I agree , especially since , IMO
The Vučedol culture developed from two older eneolithic cultures: the Baden culture, mainly in the Pannonian plain

matches the area of the illyrian tribe - Daesitiates or Daezitiates were an Illyrian tribe that lived in what is today Bosnia and Herzegovina during the time of the Roman Republic. Along with the Maezaei, the Daesitiates belonged to the Pannonians.[88] They were prominent from the end of the 4th century BC up until the beginning of the 3rd century AD.

lasting 700 years is a long time

I refer to this tribe as Proto-illyrian
Vucedol lands matches these Illyrian lands as recorded in roman history