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Trojet
07-02-2015, 03:46 AM
Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups.
All samples along with STRs and SNPs tested are on Table S3 under "Supplementary Info":
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html

*Note that "x" before a SNP means tested negative for it. Totals don't add up to 100% since I didn't report some haplogroups below 3%.

Gheg Albanians (119):
E1b-V13: 38%
J2b-M12: 25%
R1b-L51 (xP311): 12%
R1b-M269 (xL51): 4.2%
I2a (xM26,M223): 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians (104):
E1b-V13: 29%
J2b-M12: 12%
R1b-L51 (xP311): 8%
R1b-M269 (xL51): 6%
I2a (xM26,M223): 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy, 150):
E1b-V13: 13%
J2b-M12: 3%
R1b-L51 (xP311): NONE
R1b-M269 (xL51): 8%
I2a (xM26,M223): 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b (xV13): 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

Tįltos
07-02-2015, 03:53 AM
Trojet,
Nice breakdowns of the haplogroups. I had put a post for this in the Albanian DNA Project thread about a half hour ago. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project/page5 This paper seems to have been buried in the New DNA Papers thread. Oh well I suppose the Arbereshe deserve their own thread. :biggrin1:

Trojet
07-02-2015, 04:03 AM
Trojet,
Nice breakdowns of the haplogroups. I had put a post for this in the Albanian DNA Project thread about a half hour ago. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3821-Albanian-DNA-Project/page5 This paper seems to have been buried in the New DNA Papers thread. Oh well I suppose the Arbereshe deserve their own thread. :biggrin1:

If we can create a new thread, why not :) This seems like a very large study, so I think it deserves a new thread. I wish they would have tested more downstream SNPs of certain haplogroups, or more STRs (not just 17), but this is what we got. I was mainly interested in haplogroup breakdown, so I did my best. Obviously the percentages dont add up to 100% since I didnt include some smaller percentages of haplogroups, however if anyone is interested in other registered haplogroups, they are on table S3 of that nature link.

lgmayka
07-02-2015, 09:49 AM
Gheg Albanians:
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%

Tosk Albanians:
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%

L51xP311 is amazingly common among Albanians.

Ignis90
07-02-2015, 10:08 AM
Nice breakdown.

Some [non-listed] minor haplogroups are so specific to an area that it clearly show the direction of the geneflow, here from the natives to the Arbėreshė, like one E-M81 in a Sicilian Arbėreshė IIRC.


L51xP311 is amazingly common among Albanians.

I'm surprised by those high numbers.

Trojet
07-02-2015, 11:29 AM
L51xP311 is amazingly common among Albanians.

Could it be the the best candidate for IE speaking, Illyrians?
Interesting that this R1b-L51 xP311 didn't even register among Arbereshe, however there is a big discrepancy for J2b and E-V13 as well.

Michał
07-02-2015, 12:08 PM
L51xP311 is amazingly common among Albanians.
This is indeed very surprising since previous studies have shown no L51(xP311) in the Balkans (including 0/114 among the Kosovars).

I have just taken a look at their STR haplotypes, and there is something strange with these results. Nearly all those L51(xP311) haplotypes (or at least 19/22) seem to be a part of a relatively young cluster that is characterized mostly by the co-existence of DYS393=13, DYS385=11-11, DYS458<17(15 or 16) and DYS456=15. The most intriguing thing is that these are exactly the results that are characteristic for a specific subcluster under Z2103 (probably within CTS9219>BY611) that seems to be quite common among the Albanians.

There are three possible explanations for the above results: 1) extreme coincidence, 2) recurrence of L51 under BY611, 3) lab error.

Michał
07-02-2015, 12:17 PM
BTW, aren't the numbers for M269xL51 (I guess mostly for Z2103 and PF7562) much below what should be expected based on some previous estimates? If so, this makes it more likely that most of those putative L51xP311 cases are indeed Z2103+.

ADW_1981
07-02-2015, 12:18 PM
This is indeed very surprising since previous studies have shown no L51(xP311) in the Balkans (including 0/114 among the Kosovars).

I have just taken a look at their STR haplotypes, and there is something strange in these results. Nearly all those L51(xP311) haplotypes (or at least 19/22) seem to be a part of a relatively young cluster that is characterized mostly by the co-existence of DYS393=13, DYS385=11-11, DYS458<17(15 or 16) and DYS456=15. The most intriguing thing is that these are exactly the results that are characteristic for a specific subcluster under Z2103 (probably within CTS9219>BY611) that seems to be quite common among the Albanians.

There are three possible explanations for the above results: 1) extreme coincidence, 2) recurrence of L51 under BY611, 3) lab error.

Unfortunately I couldn't see results for DYS426. AFAIK, every L51* has a value of 13 here.

Michał
07-02-2015, 12:52 PM
Unfortunately I couldn't see results for DYS426. AFAIK, every L51* has a value of 13 here.
Let's be precise. We don't know any L51* case yet (I guess you meant L51xP311). DYS426=13 seems to be characteristic for PF7589, a subclade under L51 that is parallel to L11/P311. Hence, a potential absence of DYS426=13 in those Albanian samples would not allow us to "rule out" L51xP311 (or "true" L51*, which, in fact, would be much more interesting).

lgmayka
07-02-2015, 02:23 PM
The entries marked as K-M9(xM45) look like T.

George
07-02-2015, 02:47 PM
Out of curiosity. Are there many (or few)discernible M-458's and/or CTS-10228"s among the Albanian R and I groups in all three populations?

lgmayka
07-02-2015, 02:56 PM
Out of curiosity. Are there many (or few)discernible M-458's and/or CTS-10228"s among the Albanian R and I groups in all three populations?
31 entries are classified as I-P215(xM26,M223). Almost all of them appear to belong to I-CTS10228.

Of the 24 R-M17 entries, about half look typical of M458.

Mikewww
07-02-2015, 03:28 PM
Let's be precise. We don't know any L51* case yet (I guess you meant L51xP311). DYS426=13 seems to be characteristic for PF7589, a subclade under L51 that is parallel to L11/P311. Hence, a potential absence of DYS426=13 in those Albanian samples would not allow us to "rule out" L51xP311 (or "true" L51*, which, in fact, would be much more interesting).
I don't think you are trying to say this, but I caution against a search for the holy grail in any paragroup ("*"). L51* is only a temporal state (based on depth and breadth of testing) for everyone but the first three or four generations after the L51 progenitor, which is when the next SNPs would have been occurring.

All I am saying is any L51* person is just another cousin to PF7589 or L11. Where we find a concentration of early branching cousins is instructive.

At one time we saw P312* as being absolutely prevalent in Iberia, but now we know a ton of that was DF27, just a cousin or brother to U152, L21, DF19, L238, DF99, etc. No more important, no less.

ADW_1981
07-02-2015, 05:03 PM
Let's be precise. We don't know any L51* case yet (I guess you meant L51xP311). DYS426=13 seems to be characteristic for PF7589, a subclade under L51 that is parallel to L11/P311. Hence, a potential absence of DYS426=13 in those Albanian samples would not allow us to "rule out" L51xP311 (or "true" L51*, which, in fact, would be much more interesting).

Agreement here. It was a rushed message. Nonetheless it would be extremely handy to have a DYS426 value on these haplotypes. It would make the conversation more interesting.

George
07-02-2015, 05:15 PM
31 entries are classified as I-P215(xM26,M223). Almost all of them appear to belong to I-CTS10228.

Of the 24 R-M17 entries, about half look typical of M458.

Could you clarify for a non-technical person like me? I understand about the R-M17 since M-458 is an eventual subgroup. But are you saying that the classification I-P215 (xM26,M223) is wrong, and should be I-P215 (I-CTS10228)? Does "x" mean "either/or"?

alan
07-02-2015, 05:22 PM
Very interesting results for haplogroups. This is what I got as far as the percentage of the most frequent haplogroups, all samples along with STRs and SNPs tested are on table S3 on the nature paper:

Gheg Albanians:
E-V13: 38%
J2b: 25%
R1b-L51 xP311: 12%
R1b-M269 xL51: 4.2%
I2a-xM26,M223: 3.3%
R1a-M17: 2.5%
I1-M253: 3.3%

Tosk Albanians:
E-V13: 29%
J2b: 12%
R1b-L51 xP311: 8%
R1b-M269 xL51: 6%
I2a-xM26,M223: 11.5%
I2a-M223: 5%
R1a-M17: 6%
I1-M253: 3.8%

Arbereshe Albanians (Southern Italy):
E-V13: 15%
J2b: 3%
R1b-L51 xP311: NONE
R1b-M269 xL51: 8%
I2a-xM26, M223: 10%
I2a-M223: 10%
R1a-M17: 10%
E1b-xV13: 13%
I1-M253: 5.3%

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ejhg2015138a.html

aha L51xL11 in reasonable numbers among Albanians (who I believe are displaced Dacians)

alan
07-02-2015, 05:27 PM
I don't think you are trying to say this, but I caution against a search for the holy grail in any paragroup ("*"). L51* is only a temporal state (based on depth and breadth of testing) for everyone but the first three or four generations after the L51 progenitor, which is when the next SNPs would have been occurring.

All I am saying is any L51* person is just another cousin to PF7589 or L11. Where we find a concentration of early branching cousins is instructive.

At one time we saw P312* as being absolutely prevalent in Iberia, but now we know a ton of that was DF27, just a cousin or brother to U152, L21, DF19, L238, DF99, etc. No more important, no less.

true but as you say its interesting when another branch is shed. Am I reading this right - is this saying there is NO other L11 except this L51xL11. That is very interesting if so.

Trojet
07-02-2015, 05:51 PM
aha L51xL11 in reasonable numbers among Albanians (who I believe are displaced Dacians)

I'm sorry, but you would be so wrong if you believe that. I don't really want to get into that debate here, but if you force me to, I'd be happy to prove you wrong :)

alan
07-02-2015, 05:55 PM
I think there could be significance in the apparent presence of only L51xL11 and no other L51 derived branch. I was very convinced by the arguments that the Albanians are displaced Dacians in linguistic origin. Then there are the more long term local Illyrians. Interesting to speculate how a fair amount of L51xL11 could end up in Albania without any other L51 branches. That could be taken as evidence that the origin is not from the main L51 (basically L11) zone and more likely to me to come from somewhere north-east of Albania in the central Balkans. Or put it another way, a highly unusual L51xL11 group got into the ancestors of the Albanians. Its actually a significant chunk of all R1 derived y lines in these Albanians so cannot be written off lightly. It could suggest that there was an area in Albanian ancestry where M269xL51 groups were mixed with L51xL11 groups somewhere other than Albania.

I would also observe that L51xL11 looks to me to have become a line associated with mountainous areas in Europe - the other peak being Tyrol but generally strung along uplands. This could simply be a case of displacement up the hills by later waves. However, it could also relate to groups who were adapted to the kind of upland pastoralism with sheep and goats. There are a number of such cultures in the archaeological record. Indeed even on the steppes there were groups who seemed to specialise on sheep-goat type pastoralism. I recall Anthony outlines at least one in his discussion of the pre-Yamnaya groups on the steppe c. 4000-3000BC. I just cannot recall of the top of my head which one or ones it was - think it was Mikhaelovka I in the hillier lands around Crimea who in turn are thought to be at least partly ancestral to Kemi Oba. People of that sort of background were pre-adapted to settle mountanous areas like much of the Balkans. When you add the peak of L51xL11 in Tyrol then I do wonder if there is more to the distribution than just running for the hills when the Slavs arrived.

alan
07-02-2015, 05:59 PM
I'm sorry, but you would be so wrong if you believe that. I don't really want to get into that debate here, but if you force me to, I'd be happy to prove you wrong :)

It was a linguistic paper but yeah lets leave that for another thread another time. It doesnt really matter to me to put a name on the carrier of L51 as the reality must be at some point in time L23 lines of various types penetrated Albania and in all probability it was from points east and some of it almost certainly has to have been from the steppes ultimately i.e. the Z2103. I also recall there was some M269xL23 in Kosovo Albanians. So Albanians have at least three R1b lines as well as some R1a.

alan
07-02-2015, 06:02 PM
I hope there isnt a rush to explain away the L51xL11 guys. Even if they have a MRCA that is not that old it is entirely possible for local lineages to truncate drastically in clan societies. I think the significance is that an L51 branch off of a rare type made it into Albanians without bringing any L11.

alan
07-02-2015, 06:16 PM
From memory was their not also one previously known L51 guy who was from the north-west Balkans?
As an aside, this does remind me how we have little clue about the genetic makeup of the Illyrian people or Dacians and Thracians for that matter. It has long been possible through inference to link certain lines with Celto-Italic, Baltic, Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Armenian etc but when you have groups who are extinct or their survival is contested then we badly need ancient DNA. Anyway, whatever group the Albanians are composed of it is highly interesting that they had M269, Z2103 and L51 but no L11.

jdean
07-02-2015, 06:40 PM
From memory was their not also one previously known L51 guy who was from the north-west Balkans?
As an aside, this does remind me how we have little clue about the genetic makeup of the Illyrian people or Dacians and Thracians for that matter. It has long been possible through inference to link certain lines with Celto-Italic, Baltic, Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Armenian etc but when you have groups who are extinct or their survival is contested then we badly need ancient DNA. Anyway, whatever group the Albanians are composed of it is highly interesting that they had M269, Z2103 and L51 but no L11.

There is a smattering of U152 and an L21.

alan
07-02-2015, 06:41 PM
There was a smattering of U152 and an L21.
Sorry I should have said I meant an L51xL11 guy - might have been Croatia but cannot recall.

alan
07-02-2015, 06:43 PM
There is a smattering of U152 and an L21.

Get you now - didnt read your post properly. The L51xL11 just jumps out though. Proportions of L51 derived clades is just so unusual and very unlike central, north and western Europe.

ADW_1981
07-02-2015, 06:55 PM
The Gheg/Tosk R1b levels are about what they are from previous papers ~18%. The Arbereshe seem a little lower in R1b than I would have thought. It's interesting that I2-M223 is rather heavy as well, considering it was found in Yamnaya as well as Vucedol.

I'd love for someone to take a large set of known L51(xL11) haplotypes and determine a MRCA from them. I'm aware of at least 2 distantly related Yemeni Arabs, and a declared Palestinian part of this same cluster so I would be very interested to see if they descend from a fairly recent European-ish man.

jdean
07-02-2015, 07:02 PM
Get you now - didnt read your post properly. The L51xL11 just jumps out though. Proportions of L51 derived clades is just so unusual and very unlike central, north and western Europe.

Sure does, I wonder what Gioiello will have to say about it : )

vettor
07-02-2015, 07:14 PM
Could it be the the best candidate for IE speaking, Illyrians?
Interesting that this R1b-L51 xP311 didn't even register among Arbereshe, however there is a big discrepancy for J2b and E-V13 as well.

The likely scenario is that R1b-L51 was due to the failed celtic/gallic invasion of Greece ( prior to Roman entrance into the balkans ). The celtc absorbed the illyrians first.
This failed celtic invasion if Greece, let to celtic retreat into turkey ( galatians ), modern albania and the scordisci tribe in modern serbia ..............I would be surprised if these area are all missing L51.
IIRC the epi-centre of R1b-L51 was the mountains of central france.

Since remedello is I2a in northern italy , I also see illyrians as I2a since the northern adriatic sea was once land , that is modern croatia was joined to Italy in the north.

vettor
07-02-2015, 07:19 PM
Could you clarify for a non-technical person like me? I understand about the R-M17 since M-458 is an eventual subgroup. But are you saying that the classification I-P215 (xM26,M223) is wrong, and should be I-P215 (I-CTS10228)? Does "x" mean "either/or"?

I-P215 ( xM26, M223 ) I was always told/instructed means - positive for P215 and tested and negative for M26 and M223

Titus Valerius
07-02-2015, 08:09 PM
Sure does, I wonder what Gioiello will have to say about it : )
Gioiello answered on " human population genetics" of FB and on eng.molgen and in private letters to me, to Tofanelli, to Francalacci, to Antonio Salas, saying that they aren't R-L51 but L-23 "balcan cluster"

Michał
07-02-2015, 09:43 PM
Gioiello answered on " human population genetics" of FB and on eng.molgen and in private letters to me, to Tofanelli, to Francalacci, to Antonio Salas, saying that they aren't R-L51 but L-23 "balcan cluster"
I rarely agree with him, but in this particular case, BY611 seems to be indeed the most likely option, so this discussion about high frequency of L51(XL11) in Albania (or in the Balkans) seems to be premature.

alan
07-02-2015, 09:50 PM
I rarely agree with him, but in this particular case, BY611 seems to be indeed the most likely option, so this discussion about high frequency of L51(XL11) in Albania (or in the Balkans) seems to be premature.

Why did the paper describe it as L51xL11?

Michał
07-02-2015, 09:51 PM
Why did the paper describe it as L51xL11?
Please see my earlier post:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4825-A-new-paper-comparing-current-Albanian-%28Ghegs-Tosks%29-Y-chromosome-with-Arbereshe&p=93909&viewfull=1#post93909

alan
07-02-2015, 10:02 PM
Please see my earlier post:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4825-A-new-paper-comparing-current-Albanian-%28Ghegs-Tosks%29-Y-chromosome-with-Arbereshe&p=93909&viewfull=1#post93909

Michal you spoilsport LOL. Thought we had something interesting there

ADW_1981
07-02-2015, 10:08 PM
Why did the paper describe it as L51xL11?

That is a very good question. I didn't catch the 11-11 385a/b. My eyes must have skimmed it as I was searching for the DYS426 marker.

lgmayka
07-02-2015, 10:16 PM
Sorry I should have said I meant an L51xL11 guy - might have been Croatia but cannot recall.
Yes, he is in my project: kit 50168 of Croatia. He has tested PF7589+ and even CTS6889+ , but according to YFull that clade is 4800 years old (http://yfull.com/tree/R-S1141/). According to the Semargl database (http://www.semargl.me/nearest/53195/), his numerically nearest neighbors differ from him on 16 markers out of 67--which in R1b equals at least 4000 years. (I am speaking from experience in this matter, not naive models that have proven false.) By FTDNA's criteria, he has no matches at any level, not even 12 markers.

By way of explanation: The total R1b-L51 haplogroup (including all subclades) is so saturated with haplotypes that almost everyone has a near-match, even a false one ("coincidental convergence"). When, on the contrary, a member of this haplogroup differs from everyone on 14 or more markers out of 67, the TMRCA is probably 4000 years or more--as is eventually shown by the Big Y.

I am willing to contribute $100 toward a Big Y for #50168, the next time FTDNA runs a discount sale. Any other potential donors?

alan
07-02-2015, 10:34 PM
One thing seems certain, I cannot see L51 having originated or expanded from the peak in Tyrol. Its a very unlikely location for a steppe derived lineage to sprout out from or send out L11 into the world. The nearest place to that peak that seems compatible with a steppic origin would be Hungary or somewhere not far from there in the Danube or NW Balkans. Perhaps its assymetical expansion is evidence that Z2103 essentially blocked it from eastward movement when it slipped in behind it. That tends to make me think L51 must have been fairly rapidly followed by Z2103 west. Then again if L51 was in a fully mobile life of wheels mode for a time and had Z2103 rivals doing similar its really hard to see how we could expect a genetic trail. One thing to bear in mind though is that the wheel was probably not invented until 3500BC so life of wheels wasnt an option before then. Now with Afansievo redated back towards the same date as Yamnaya the life on wheels option existed for them. For movements off-steppe west prior to 3500BC - probably 3300BC - the life on wheels options wasnt there. Prior to that there is no real evidence of mobile pastoralism. Horse riding but not mobile pastoralism. I think that is maybe why we see such a tiny number of kurgans in the Suvorovo stage. Certainly I think this needs borne in mind when looking for pre-Yamnaya expansion from the steppes.

Trojet
07-02-2015, 10:37 PM
So the consensus after all is that they are not R1b-L51 xP311, but rather R1b-M269 xL51 most likely the previously reported Balkan cluster due to some kind of a lab error (false L51+)?

alan
07-02-2015, 11:02 PM
So the consensus after all is that they are not R1b-L51 xP311, but rather R1b-M269 xL51 most likely the previously reported Balkan cluster due to some kind of a lab error (false L51+)?

Its what some are saying but its not my area. Would be disappointing if true.

alan
07-02-2015, 11:08 PM
Is someone going to contact the authors to enquire?

Michał
07-02-2015, 11:29 PM
So the consensus after all is that they are not R1b-L51 xP311, but rather R1b-M269 xL51 most likely the previously reported Balkan cluster due to some kind of a lab error (false L51+)?
We won't know it for sure until more data are available. However, this is indeed something we cannot rule out at the moment, as such possibility is indicated by both the previously published SNP data for neighboring populations (including the closely related ones) and the STR data accompanying the discussed results.

smal
07-03-2015, 06:41 AM
Even FTDNA, the lab with very high quality control, does errors. For example, in the R-M269 project we have several false positive M269 tests. You may be sure the small academic labs do not have such high quality as FTDNA. Having only three additional markers, PF7562, Z2103, and PF7589, in the SNP testing panel the authors could prevent the possibility of such error.

J Man
07-04-2015, 04:56 PM
E-V13 and J2b as the most common haplogroups among the Ghegs is in line with previous Y-DNA studies done on Albanians. Also yet again absolutely zero haplogroup G among all three Albanian groups.

Trojet
07-04-2015, 05:04 PM
E-V13 and J2b as the most common haplogroups among the Ghegs is in line with previous Y-DNA studies done on Albanians. Also yet again absolutely zero haplogroup G among all three Albanian groups.

G was actually found in 2 Ghegs 1.7%, 4 Tosks 3.8%, and 8 Arbereshe 5.3%. Indeed very rare especially in Ghegs. I just decided not to report anything that low.

Also similar trends with J2a: 2 Ghegs , 5 Tosks, and 10 Arbereshe.

Sequana
07-06-2015, 02:43 AM
Arbereshe Albanians from where in Southern Italy?

ukaj
07-06-2015, 08:21 AM
Seems to me tosk an arbreshe have mixed alot with none albanians

Cinnamon orange
07-06-2015, 09:35 AM
Arbereshe Albanians from where in Southern Italy?

I looked yesterday at the paper more closely trying to determine the same thing. I am of partial Arbereshe descent and it does not look like my ancestral town is included. It looks like villages closer up near Cosenza were and we are further down near Crotone. I only have a general idea based on what physical features they described for location and then looking up those up on google. There were two areas in Calabria referenced. I may be wrong.

Morges
07-06-2015, 11:34 AM
Arbereshe Albanians from where in Southern Italy?

Northern Calabria and North Western Sicily.

Cinnamon orange
07-06-2015, 07:57 PM
Northern Calabria and North Western Sicily.

Yes, Sicily of course, they say Sicily and Calabria:) I was trying to pinpoint where in Calabria. But more northern than my grandfathers town it seems yes. I thought Sequanna was trying to answer the same question as me but was probably more general:/

J Man
07-07-2015, 01:55 AM
G was actually found in 2 Ghegs 1.7%, 4 Tosks 3.8%, and 8 Arbereshe 5.3%. Indeed very rare especially in Ghegs. I just decided not to report anything that low.

Also similar trends with J2a: 2 Ghegs , 5 Tosks, and 10 Arbereshe.

Some if not most of the J2a among the Arbereshe probably comes from admixture with Calabrians or Sicilians. My own J2a direct paternal line comes from Calabria originally.

Morges
07-07-2015, 11:25 AM
Yes, Sicily of course, they say Sicily and Calabria:) I was trying to pinpoint where in Calabria. But more northern than my grandfathers town it seems yes. I thought Sequanna was trying to answer the same question as me but was probably more general:/

Most of Calabrian Arbereshe live in the Pollino area, North Calabria and the samples are from there.

Cinnamon orange
07-07-2015, 02:43 PM
Most of Calabrian Arbereshe live in the Pollino area, North Calabria and the samples are from there.

Thanks! My grandfather was from San Nicola Dell Alto and on immigration documents, we also have relatives from Pallagorio. They are in the Crotone area. Are you part Arbereshe?

Morges
07-07-2015, 03:15 PM
Thanks! My grandfather was from San Nicola Dell Alto and on immigration documents, we also have relatives from Pallagorio. They are in the Crotone area. Are you part Arbereshe?

Nope but I know friends from Piana and also Biancavilla, although the latter are nowadays only Italian speaking, they have Arbereshe origins as well.

Cinnamon orange
07-07-2015, 04:57 PM
Some if not most of the J2a among the Arbereshe probably comes from admixture with Calabrians or Sicilians. My own J2a direct paternal line comes from Calabria originally.

Could also be a founder effect among the Arbereshe.

Edit:
(Sorry, was trying to copy your post as well as the above quote with the higher amount of J2a and G among Arbereshe.)

MT1976
07-25-2015, 02:38 AM
From memory was their not also one previously known L51 guy who was from the north-west Balkans?
As an aside, this does remind me how we have little clue about the genetic makeup of the Illyrian people or Dacians and Thracians for that matter. It has long been possible through inference to link certain lines with Celto-Italic, Baltic, Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Armenian etc but when you have groups who are extinct or their survival is contested then we badly need ancient DNA. Anyway, whatever group the Albanians are composed of it is highly interesting that they had M269, Z2103 and L51 but no L11.

Until someone goes and does a study of south Balkan aDNA, i'd guess the pre-Roman populace had:

* R1b - Z2103
* E-V13
* I -M223
* J2's
* minor G2a
(?)

Dost
03-12-2016, 05:13 PM
More like displaced Illyrians from Herzegovina.