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Agamemnon
07-03-2015, 05:16 PM
We now know that some J was present in Neolithic Europe even though it seems to have been a minor lineage among the EEF population and may have still arrived later than G2a

J2 really looks like a newcomer at this point... Considering all the Neolithic samples we have now, the fact that J2 shows up only twice (and in a Middle-Late Neolithic context) is quite telling, especially if we take all the theories which linked its spread to the Neolithic into account. I mean, we even managed to find R1b in a Neolithic context before stumbling on J2! J wasn't a major Neolithic lineage, that's for sure, and I seriously doubt J1 will even be found in Europe prior to the Copper Age. In the same way, it seems that the bulk of J2 expanded relatively late in Europe -mostly during the Bronze Age- but we'll need more samples from the Mediterranean and Near East to tell for sure.

ADW_1981
07-03-2015, 05:21 PM
We now know that some J was present in Neolithic Europe even though it seems to have been a minor lineage among the EEF population and may have still arrived later than G2a

I think the likeliest explanation is that it was part of a secondary wave that arrived very shortly after the first thrust by the G folks. Weren't the conclusions from a recent paper on NW Anatolian 'farmer' such that it was similar to the European LBK remains, but had more influence from a component more concentrated in the modern Mid East?

parasar
07-03-2015, 05:31 PM
J2 really looks like a newcomer at this point... Considering all the Neolithic samples we have now, the fact that J2 shows up only twice (and in a Middle-Late Neolithic context) is quite telling, especially if we take all the theories which linked its spread to the Neolithic into account. I mean, we even managed to find R1b in a Neolithic context before stumbling on J2! J wasn't a major Neolithic lineage, that's for sure, and I seriously doubt J1 will even be found in Europe prior to the Copper Age. In the same way, it seems that the bulk of J2 expanded relatively late in Europe -mostly during the Bronze Age- but we'll need more samples from the Mediterranean and Near East to tell for sure.

I seriously doubt it. Europe (incld. Anatolia) looks to be as good as any location as the birth of IJ and its descendants. J just has a SE spread from the birth region and I a NE one. F* itself now looks to be a European lineage, though perhaps all these European finds are skewing my perception!

Agamemnon
07-03-2015, 05:39 PM
I seriously doubt it. Europe (incld. Anatolia) looks to be as good as any location as the birth of IJ and its descendants. J just has a SE spread from the birth region and I a NE one. F* itself now looks to be a European lineage, though perhaps all these European finds are skewing my perception!

I think that's certainly the case here :) IJ emerging in SE Anatolia, the Transcaucasus or even on the Iranian plateau is possible but again, this is just an educated guess going from contemporary data. Judging from the enormous discrepancy between the theories which proposed a massive Neolithic arrival for J2 in Europe and the actual number of J2 samples found in a Neolithic context to date (*cough* only two samples *cough*) I'd say it's particularly unwise to see J2 (let alone J as a whole) as a major Neolithic lineage, in fact I'd go as far as to say that J deserves the "stealthiest Neolithic marker" merit badge hands down :P

J Man
07-03-2015, 05:56 PM
I think that's certainly the case here :) IJ emerging in SE Anatolia, the Transcaucasus or even on the Iranian plateau is possible but again, this is just an educated guess going from contemporary data. Judging from the enormous discrepancy between the theories which proposed a massive Neolithic arrival for J2 in Europe and the actual number of J2 samples found in a Neolithic context to date (*cough* only two samples *cough*) I'd say it's particularly unwise to see J2 (let alone J as a whole) as a major Neolithic lineage, in fact I'd go as far as to say that J deserves the "stealthiest Neolithic marker" merit badge hands down :P

Well it certainly does not look like J was a major player among the earliest Neolithic groups that first expanded into Europe. They are solidly dominated by G2a. J really still is quite a mystery overall.

J Man
07-03-2015, 06:01 PM
I think the likeliest explanation is that it was part of a secondary wave that arrived very shortly after the first thrust by the G folks. Weren't the conclusions from a recent paper on NW Anatolian 'farmer' such that it was similar to the European LBK remains, but had more influence from a component more concentrated in the modern Mid East?

Yes that could be case at least to some degree.

Agamemnon
07-03-2015, 06:06 PM
Well it certainly does not look like J was a major player among the earliest Neolithic groups that first expanded into Europe. They are solidly dominated by G2a. J really still is quite a mystery overall.

We are in full agreement here.

J Man
07-03-2015, 06:09 PM
We are in full agreement here.

Both J1 and J2 were probably further to the East and maybe South as well when the early Neolithic farmers dominated by G2a began expanding into Europe.

RCO
07-03-2015, 06:33 PM
I think J was located more to the Anatolian NW towards the Caspian Sea and J1 was more to the East than J2 because J1 is the majority in Eastern Caucasus. J and specially J2 branched earlier and more vigourosly and dispersed with several small ancient branches. It is frequent to find several J1 and J2 branches older than 15000 years and only a few moved to the SW in direction to the Levant and Arabia where they have younger branches with high proportions in the local populations.

J Man
07-03-2015, 06:41 PM
I think J was located more to the Anatolian NW towards the Caspian Sea and J1 was more to the East than J2 because J1 is the majority in Eastern Caucasus. J and specially J2 branched earlier and more vigourosly and dispersed with several small ancient branches. It is frequent to find several J1 and J2 branches older than 15000 years and only a few moved to the SW in direction to the Levant and Arabia where they have younger branches with high proportions in the local populations.

J2 is dominant among the Ingush and Chechens and they are Northeast Caucasian people who border on Dagestan.

Agamemnon
07-03-2015, 06:56 PM
I think J was located more to the Anatolian NW towards the Caspian Sea and J1 was more to the East than J2 because J1 is the majority in Eastern Caucasus. J and specially J2 branched earlier and more vigourosly and dispersed with several small ancient branches. It is frequent to find several J1 and J2 branches older than 15000 years and only a few moved to the SW in direction to the Levant and Arabia where they have younger branches with high proportions in the local populations.

If there's anything we've learnt with all the ancient genomes we've analysed in Europe, it's that contemporary frequencies are utterly unreliable... Which is why I'd usually caution against making broad assumptions based on contemporary data in the absence of ancient DNA (better to keep an open mind here). Besides, J Man is right: J2 also attains its highest frequency in the NE Caucasus (among the Ingush).

J Man
07-03-2015, 07:34 PM
If there's anything we've learnt with all the ancient genomes we've analysed in Europe, it's that contemporary frequencies are utterly unreliable... Which is why I'd usually caution against making broad assumptions based on contemporary data in the absence of ancient DNA (better to keep an open mind here). Besides, J Man is right: J2 also attains its highest frequency in the NE Caucasus (among the Ingush).

Well said.

RCO
07-03-2015, 10:03 PM
J2 is dominant among the Ingush and Chechens and they are Northeast Caucasian people who border on Dagestan.

Yes, but the map can show important differences.

5109

J1 is to the East and almost no J2 can be found there.
J2 is located to the North-East and some J1 can be found there too.
We can think the locational differences are very old because that's a mountainous area likely preserving very ancient trends.

Agamemnon
07-03-2015, 10:27 PM
Yes, but the map can show important differences.

5109

J1 is to the East and almost no J2 can be found there.
J2 is located to the North-East and some J1 can be found there too.
We can think the locational differences are very old because that's a mountainous area likely preserving very ancient trends.

I think you're missing the point here anyway: J1 diversity in the North Caucasus is notoriously low, with most samples belonging to a single branch (Z1842). I assume this is the same for pretty much every haplogroup back there, since the Caucasus is a genetic sink -as well as a human museum of sorts- where extreme founder effects took root (hence the correlation between paternal lineages and languages).
While I think some put too much trust in contemporary Y-DNA diversity, the frequencies here are meaningless as well as inconsequential as far as J1's origin is of concern since we're dealing with a single branch.
By the same token I could argue that J1 was born in modern-day Sudan considering the high J1 frequencies in NE Sudan. Of course, this makes no sense because most of the J1 back there belongs to fairly recent Arabian subclades of L858.
The occurrence of J1 in both Nakh and Dagestanian speakers certainly suggests that the Proto-Northeast Caucasians carried non-trivial amounts of J1 though.

Agamemnon
07-03-2015, 10:51 PM
Could we please get back to the subject of this thread? I found it to be interesting. Not that J migration isn't interesting, it's just not the subject of this thread. Maybe the original post will reset the discussion.

I agree. Someone should move this discussion to the Y-DNA J section in fact.

ZephyrousMandaru
07-04-2015, 12:10 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't hypothesize placing Haplogroup J or its two major subclades where it exhibits its highest diversity in modern populations. Which of course includes the Caucasus, Anatolia and Northwestern Iran. We only have to look at where the highest genetic variance of R1b is observed today, which is in Central Anatolia to know that this does not reflect the reality that it actually originated in the steppe. I think a more likely scenario for Haplogroup J is that it emerged further south in places such as Mesopotamia or the Levant, and then later expanded to the Caucasus and Anatolia. The reason why J1 is one of the regions where it peaks, is because Caucasians are genetically drifted.

If anything, J1 is probably associated with the spread of ENF or even Basal Eurasian to an extent, whereas R1b is more ANE related.

RCO
07-04-2015, 12:55 AM
We already know more facts about the history of P/Q/R in terms of the development of basal and archaelogical SNPs. We need to know the history of IJ/I/J, including the ancient atDNA. I think J1 long line of SNPs were adjacent to the same J and IJ long lines of SNPs. I would think J1 was the last to move to distant places far away from the IJ/J cradle regions. After a long continuous line of J1 SNPs during the Last Glaciation, J1 started to branch. After the warm Bølling-Allerød interstadial period from c. 14,700 to 12,700 ybp J1 had created at least 6 branches still alive today. 1 - F1614-F4306. 2 - PF7261. 3 - Z1828. 4 - FGC6064-M365. 5 - ZS6591-ZS6705. 6 - L136. New basal branches can be possibly found in undersampled regions around Northern Iran. Regions like the Caucasus, Eastern Anatolia, Armenia, Northern Iraq can also be interesting but have been sampled. Of the six J1 basal branches only L136 is very frequent to the South, the Levant and Arabian Peninsula, all regions already extensively researched with commercial samples from FTDNA. The pivotal area of J1 could be around the Ararat-Zagros-Elburz ranges and the Zarzian culture could be associated with some of the first Post-Glacial types of J1 and J2.

paulgill
07-04-2015, 09:17 AM
J2 really looks like a newcomer at this point... Considering all the Neolithic samples we have now, the fact that J2 shows up only twice (and in a Middle-Late Neolithic context) is quite telling, especially if we take all the theories which linked its spread to the Neolithic into account. I mean, we even managed to find R1b in a Neolithic context before stumbling on J2! J wasn't a major Neolithic lineage, that's for sure, and I seriously doubt J1 will even be found in Europe prior to the Copper Age. In the same way, it seems that the bulk of J2 expanded relatively late in Europe -mostly during the Bronze Age- but we'll need more samples from the Mediterranean and Near East to tell for sure.

Just look under Z1853, J1-Z1853 present in Europe may be for the last 8 to 6K. https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults.

alan
07-04-2015, 11:39 AM
its telling that J is not only missing from the earliest farmers of the Balkans and LBK, its also so far missing from ancient samples along the Med, the area where west of Greece the Cardial culture spread farming. Cardial seems to have its roots on the Levant. So it provides indirect evidence that J was not in the Levant c. 6000BC and as others have suggested it is likely to have been further inland in somewhere like the Upper Tigris or Zagros around the western Iran-Iraq border in that area or east Turkey.

It seems like Europe's most important first waves of farmers lacked J but that it has started to reach Europe in the middle Neolithic. Presumably it had by then reached adjacent areas like NW Turkey by then and started to enter Europe. There are a number of secondary Neolithic cultures close to the western shores of the Black Sea in the Balkans like Hamangia which seem to have Anatolian links. That culture also seems to be the first European pastoralist based culture - the likely source of the latter innovation is the Fikirtepe culture of NW Anatolia. When you look at NW Anatolia archaeologists derive the farmer element in the hunter-farming mix in Fikirtepe culture as having come in from central Anatolia - linked to Catalhuyuk . Its hard to be exactly sure which secondary Neolithic Anatolian contacts might have brought J to Europe because there seem to be a long term period contact from about 5300BC for many centuries but I am pretty convinced it came via Anatolia in the secondary Neolithic.

Possibly also worth noting that once farming had spread into the north of Iran/northern plateau of Iran and into the north Caucasus there was probably a second route for a trickle effect into steppe Europe for J using that link. I like the suggestion made on Eupedia that there is some link between J and people who were strongly pastoralist rather than crop orientated. That makes sense because as I said above, a pastoralist based economy seems to only jump into Europe c. 5300BC in Bulgaria in the Hamangia culture, probably through contacts and movement from the Fikirtepe culture of NW Anatolia.

J1 DYS388=13
07-04-2015, 12:06 PM
This idea of a secondary Neolithic by way of NW Anatolia is nicely discussed in "Musings on Early Farming Communities in Northwest Anatolia; and other Flights of Fancy" by Malcolm Lillie, Chelsea Budd, Songül Alpaslan-Roodenberg, Necmi Karul, and Ron Pinhasi, 2012, in Interdisciplinaria archaeologica, Natural Sciences in Archaeology, homepage: http://www.iansa.eu

As for J1, a candidate for participation in that second wave is J1-L1189, a mainly European type (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.kQRaWcsg-lmU&usp=sharing) whose closest Anatolian relative is 7,200 years distant http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

J Man
07-04-2015, 04:52 PM
All of this makes one wonder if Y-DNA haplogroup J was present among the very first farmers of the Fertile Crescent? Or were the J folk early secondary receivers of agriculture in the Near East/West Asia? Ancient DNA one day will tell us.

alan
07-06-2015, 07:42 PM
All of this makes one wonder if Y-DNA haplogroup J was present among the very first farmers of the Fertile Crescent? Or were the J folk early secondary receivers of agriculture in the Near East/West Asia? Ancient DNA one day will tell us.

The main thing to keep in mind is that the cradle of agriculture was a pretty large area and different groups within it were responsible for developing different aspects of farming. Not sure these are cutting edge as its constantly being revised but it gives the idea.

http://maxworldhistory.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/9/9/18994149/512040_orig.jpg

http://www.nap.edu/books/12692/xhtml/images/p20019ad4g94001.jpg

Perhaps some lineages due to initial associations with particular animal or plants domesticates spread in a way based on looking for similar niches. Of course knowledge of the various strands soon mixed and overlapped but I wonder if the different original associations with particular animals and crops at the start of the Neolithic did have an impact on DNA distribution.

alan
07-06-2015, 10:56 PM
I think in the centuries leading to 6000BC y lines from much further east within SW Asia (say Zagros) had started to reach the east Med. coast and Anatolia but largely 'missed the boat' to Europe that the first farmers were paddling. I have looked at a few aspects of the archaeology of Anatolia and the Levant and you can see that there was a within-SW Asia movement from east to west even long after farming was widespread in many of those area. Pressure microblades for example arrive about 3000 years later in the east Med. coast that in places like Zagros for example. Catulhuyuk type cultural aspects only reach NW Anatolia in the centuries running up to 6000BC after a very long delay. One indirect evidence for this direction of flow within SW Asia is probably the discovery of V88 in an Iberian farmer. Iberia is almost entirely Cardial derived in terms of the early to mid Neolithic. Cardial originated around the Levant although had many stepping stones west - the earliest European ones being the Adriatic Balkans. So, I think the V88 in Iberia is evidence that a few people had reached the east Med. coast from further east in SW Asia around Iran before the Cardial people left for Europe. I dont think it was a major clade at this time but it is almost a tracking device.

Agamemnon
07-06-2015, 11:40 PM
Well, as I said, the Gulf oasis might provide an answer to that question... Or not, it remains to be seen.

Anabasis
09-01-2015, 07:58 PM
When we solve the origins of J i think we will also solve why early european farmers' admix does not have "Caucasian" component while most of the modern near easterner dominantly have. If we associate paternal lines with autosomal components,

Early farmers; G2a, E, and T
Late Neolithic Near Easterners (especialy iranians) ;J1,J2 and L ( L might also be Early Farmer but probably extinct as a result of Late Neolithic Farmers, Metallurgists or pastorals invasions in west asia )

J Man
09-01-2015, 09:19 PM
When we solve the origins of J i think we will also solve why early european farmers' admix does not have "Caucasian" component while most of the modern near easterner dominantly have. If we associate paternal lines with autosomal components,

Early farmers; G2a, E, and T
Late Neolithic Near Easterners (especialy iranians) ;J1,J2 and L ( L might also be Early Farmer but probably extinct as a result of Late Neolithic Farmers, Metallurgists or pastorals invasions in west asia )

The question is though were these Late Neolithic Near Easterners (J1, J2 and L) among the very first Neolithic farming peoples of the Near East that just happened to live further east than the peoples that spread into Europe? I think so yes.

Agamemnon
09-01-2015, 09:38 PM
At this point, I think only archeogenetic data will sort this one out.

J Man
09-02-2015, 12:35 AM
At this point, I think only archeogenetic data will sort this one out.

Yup that is right.

paulgill
09-02-2015, 02:13 AM
..........................

paulgill
09-02-2015, 02:15 AM
When we solve the origins of J i think we will also solve why early european farmers' admix does not have "Caucasian" component while most of the modern near easterner dominantly have. If we associate paternal lines with autosomal components,

Early farmers; G2a, E, and T
Late Neolithic Near Easterners (especialy iranians) ;J1,J2 and L ( L might also be Early Farmer but probably extinct as a result of Late Neolithic Farmers, Metallurgists or pastorals invasions in west asia )

I think mainly J2 with some G and may be J1 also, is responsible for Mehrgarh, BMAC and IVC, J2 is in this area for around 10000 yrs now. L may also be a part of it too, but I think L more likely were Elamite and Iranic Tribes.

paulgill
09-02-2015, 02:28 AM
............................

vettor
09-02-2015, 06:31 AM
When we solve the origins of J i think we will also solve why early european farmers' admix does not have "Caucasian" component while most of the modern near easterner dominantly have. If we associate paternal lines with autosomal components,

Early farmers; G2a, E, and T
Late Neolithic Near Easterners (especialy iranians) ;J1,J2 and L ( L might also be Early Farmer but probably extinct as a result of Late Neolithic Farmers, Metallurgists or pastorals invasions in west asia )

I believe J2 is with G2 in the caucasus and also is represented as early Farmers

On a recent post on another thread it clearly shows Balkars ( north caucasus people ) with equal amounts of 20%plus for each of G2 and J2 , I cannot envisage any G2 going into europe to farm without J2.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=105263&viewfull=1#post105263


J1 I associate with the arabian peninsula

J1 DYS388=13
09-02-2015, 07:35 AM
J1 I associate with the arabian peninsula

But the place of origin of J1 seems to be southern Anatolia.

paulgill
09-02-2015, 08:00 AM
vettor,

"J1 I associate with the arabian peninsula ", explain, please.

One of the J1-Z1853 kit #285562 is me, Please check 004. J-Z1853 Clusters at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-M267/default.aspx?section=yresults.

All J1 subclads are not found there, only one branch of J1-Z1853 which have L862+ mutation is mainly found in Arabian peninsula.

J-Z2331Z1855/PF4849 * FGC1679/Z1886/CTS11050/PF4783/S2769 * Z1887/PF4862... 24 SNPsformed 7900 ybp, TMRCA 5900 ybp.

I am J1-Z1853+ and Z1855-, so are all other in Z1853* subclads.

http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2331/, also see,

J1aZ2213/CTS3068/PF4700/YSC0001264 * YSC0001294/CTS8948/PF4751 * Z2392/CTS7116/PF4736... 17 SNPsformed 18500 ybp, TMRCA 18500 ybpmore

J1a*
id:HG03767PJL, PJL stands for Punjabi from Lahor Pakistan. http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1a/

Anabasis
09-02-2015, 08:48 AM
I believe J2 is with G2 in the caucasus and also is represented as early Farmers

On a recent post on another thread it clearly shows Balkars ( north caucasus people ) with equal amounts of 20%plus for each of G2 and J2 , I cannot envisage any G2 going into europe to farm without J2.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3474-Bell-Beakers-Gimbutas-and-R1b&p=105263&viewfull=1#post105263


J1 I associate with the arabian peninsula

Caucasus is a mountainous region which have deep valleys suitable for genetic isolation and founder effect. Thus the frequencies may mislead you. The important case is "diversity" rather then frequencies. I dont know the age of any specific subsclades in North caucasia but it seems they are not so old. J1 probably originated in south east of anatolia or north mesopotamia. J1 in Arabic penisula has not so many diversity either.

vettor
09-02-2015, 09:41 AM
Caucasus is a mountainous region which have deep valleys suitable for genetic isolation and founder effect. Thus the frequencies may mislead you. The important case is "diversity" rather then frequencies. I dont know the age of any specific subsclades in North caucasia but it seems they are not so old. J1 probably originated in south east of anatolia or north mesopotamia. J1 in Arabic penisula has not so many diversity either.

24% of J2 in north-caucasus with 29% of G2 = 53 %of the populace.........it would astound me if they are all modern numbers

32% of J2 in south-caucasus with 33% of G2 = 65%

the caucasus seems to be the heart of these two markers

as for J1 , apart from the albanians , very little is J1 ( in that chart) it would indicate to me that J1 was further away that the south-Anatolia

Agamemnon
09-02-2015, 12:32 PM
But the place of origin of J1 seems to be southern Anatolia.

I recall people saying more or less the same thing about R1b a few months ago, and that didn't work out too well... We should be careful not to rely on contemporary data too much.


Caucasus is a mountainous region which have deep valleys suitable for genetic isolation and founder effect. Thus the frequencies may mislead you. The important case is "diversity" rather then frequencies. I dont know the age of any specific subsclades in North caucasia but it seems they are not so old. J1 probably originated in south east of anatolia or north mesopotamia. J1 in Arabic penisula has not so many diversity either.

Nowadays, yes... But who's to say whether that was the case by the past? For all I know, J1 could've originated in the Pamir, without ancient data we're simply not going to know for sure.

J Man
09-02-2015, 02:20 PM
24% of J2 in north-caucasus with 29% of G2 = 53 %of the populace.........it would astound me if they are all modern numbers

32% of J2 in south-caucasus with 33% of G2 = 65%

the caucasus seems to be the heart of these two markers

as for J1 , apart from the albanians , very little is J1 ( in that chart) it would indicate to me that J1 was further away that the south-Anatolia

J2 and it's subclade J2a reaches it's highest frequencies among the Vainakhs (Chechens and Ingush) of the North Caucasus. It is all pretty much part of the J2a1b* M67 subclade of J2a though which shows that the Vainakhs went through some very serious population bottlenecks and isolation during their ethnogenesis. Chechens have around 56% J2a1b* M67 overall while Ingush have around 88% J2a1b* M67 overall.

J1 DYS388=13
09-02-2015, 03:26 PM
Nowadays, yes... But who's to say whether that was the case by the past? For all I know, J1 could've originated in the Pamir, without ancient data we're simply not going to know for sure.

J1 is estimated to be 21,000 to 30,000 years old. Were people living in the Pamir then?

ZephyrousMandaru
09-02-2015, 04:49 PM
But the place of origin of J1 seems to be southern Anatolia.

Only if you rely on contemporary genetic diversity is that the case. Once upon time, people believed R1b originated around the same area, now thanks to anicent DNA, we know that wasn't the case. The subclade diversity in Europe for J1 is much higher in the mountainous regions than other places in Europe as well. This can't be a coincidence.

parasar
09-02-2015, 05:01 PM
Where do you folk think H-M69 or F-M89 or F-F1329 or originated? F1329 is essentially the node under F-M89 joining G and HIJK. The only known M89 sample negative for that node's SNPs is a Vietnam Kinh sample (there may be others in Indonesia).
The splits of G, IJ, K, and LT can't be too far.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7314_nsGxkU/UfrlVzgqgSI/AAAAAAAAI_I/zGmoi0R5-Jw/s1600/F2.large.jpg

J1 DYS388=13
09-02-2015, 06:24 PM
The subclade diversity in Europe for J1 is much higher in the mountainous regions than other places in Europe as well.

I don't understand. Can you give more detail about this?

Agamemnon
09-02-2015, 06:41 PM
J1 is estimated to be 21,000 to 30,000 years old. Were people living in the Pamir then?

R1b is about as old as J1, and similar claims relating to its origins in the Transcausasus were made. All I'm saying is that we should take contemporary data with a grain of salt.

J1 DYS388=13
09-02-2015, 07:00 PM
R1b is about as old as J1, and similar claims relating to its origins in the Transcausasus were made.

Where did you see a claim that J1 originated in the Transcaucasus?

Agamemnon
09-02-2015, 07:08 PM
Where did you see a claim that J1 originated in the Transcaucasus?

Going off diversity, most people tend to place J1's genesis either in the Transcaucasus, Eastern Anatolia or NW Iran.

Anabasis
09-02-2015, 07:19 PM
Where did you see a claim that J1 originated in the Transcaucasus?

I think Agamemnon mean the "Armenian" hypothesis. Or so called "Anatolian Hypothesis" synthesized with the frequencies of R1b in Transcaucasia. Am i right?

ZephyrousMandaru
09-02-2015, 07:59 PM
I don't understand. Can you give more detail about this?

It's from a quote about J1 on Eupedia.


Other subclades of J1 are less well studied due to their much lower frequencies. Most of the J1 in the Caucasus, Anatolia and Europe is of the non-J1-P58 variety. Other types of J1 most probably spread to Europe during the Neolithic. J1 is particularly common in mountainous regions of Europe (with the notable exception of the Alps and the Carpathians), like Greece, Albania, Italy, central France, and the most rugged parts of Iberia (Asturias, Cantabria, Castile-La Mancha) as well as those with the highest density of Neolithic settlements (Portugal and Andalusia).

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.shtml

J1 DYS388=13
09-02-2015, 08:18 PM
It's from a quote about J1 on Eupedia.




Well that's incorrect for the three non-P58 J1 subclades I've been looking at.

Z1842 (map no longer maintained) https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.k5GuTJB3-GxM&usp=sharing

BY69, L1189 https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.kQRaWcsg-lmU&usp=sharing

BY69, M8963 https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=z0C7lmnLIDx4.k_oKfltPsiqI&usp=sharing

ZephyrousMandaru
09-02-2015, 08:22 PM
Caucasus is a mountainous region which have deep valleys suitable for genetic isolation and founder effect. Thus the frequencies may mislead you. The important case is "diversity" rather then frequencies. I dont know the age of any specific subsclades in North caucasia but it seems they are not so old. J1 probably originated in south east of anatolia or north mesopotamia. J1 in Arabic penisula has not so many diversity either.

Diversity is more important, but ancient DNA data supplants anything that can be drawn from modern DNA. There's a number of reasons why subclade diversity is missing from other geograpahic areas. One is that diversity can disappear when those other subclades are nearly extinguished due to the pressure of more successful sublineages gradually replacing them. I.E., founder effect.

Case in point, the Marsh Arabs have a minority of individuals that belong to J1*, the same subclade I belong to. The vast majority of them belong to Y-DNA J1c3d. The Islamic expansion in the 7th undoubtedly changed the demographics of the region, it probably was the case that several J1 subclades were spread throughout the Middle East prior to the 7th Century CE. Which have been retained by populations living very high up in the mountains, away from natural disasters, famines and invaders.

Another factor are wars and catastrophes, these can reduce the effective population size of peoples living in regions that are prone to wars and natural disasters and drastically minimize the population. A population that undergoes these events experiences a bottleneck and thus what genetic diversity the population had previously is lost.

paulgill
09-02-2015, 09:39 PM
24% of J2 in north-caucasus with 29% of G2 = 53 %of the populace.........it would astound me if they are all modern numbers

32% of J2 in south-caucasus with 33% of G2 = 65%

the caucasus seems to be the heart of these two markers

as for J1 , apart from the albanians , very little is J1 ( in that chart) it would indicate to me that J1 was further away that the south-Anatolia


J1 is estimated to be 21,000 to 30,000 years old. Were people living in the Pamir then?

Close by.

J1aZ2213/CTS3068/PF4700/YSC0001264 * YSC0001294/CTS8948/PF4751 * Z2392/CTS7116/PF4736... 17 SNPsformed 18500 ybp, TMRCA 18500 ybpmore

J1a*
id:HG03767PJL, PJL stands for Punjabi from Lahor Pakistan. http://www.yfull.com/tree/J1a/

paulgill
09-02-2015, 09:49 PM
J1 is estimated to be 21,000 to 30,000 years old. Were people living in the Pamir then?


Going off diversity, most people tend to place J1's genesis either in the Transcaucasus, Eastern Anatolia or NW Iran.

Boundaries for the origin of J1, Black Sea, Van Lake, Urmia Lake and Caspian Sea.

RCO
09-02-2015, 09:56 PM
Haplogroups were related to the locations of the same ancestral roots. Of course R, Q and P came from the same region or had a trajectory from there. In the case of I and J we can locate the origins of IJ where I and J are found in some ancient branches. J1 and J2 had the same J root and the basal branches of J1 came from more or less the same cradle and we always can point to Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Northern Iran as the best options.

Agamemnon
09-02-2015, 10:09 PM
Haplogroups were related to the locations of the same ancestral roots. Of course R, Q and P came from the same region or had a trajectory from there. In the case of I and J we can locate the origins of IJ where I and J are found in some ancient branches. J1 and J2 had the same J root and the basal branches of J1 came from more or less the same cradle and we always can point to Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Northern Iran as the best options.

IMO this is why Soqotri J* deserves more attention, in fact J* as a whole deserves more attention.

paulgill
09-02-2015, 11:20 PM
Diversity is more important, but ancient DNA data supplants anything that can be drawn from modern DNA. There's a number of reasons why subclade diversity is missing from other geograpahic areas. One is that diversity can disappear when those other subclades are nearly extinguished due to the pressure of more successful sublineages gradually replacing them. I.E., founder effect.

Case in point, the Marsh Arabs have a minority of individuals that belong to J1*, the same subclade I belong to. The vast majority of them belong to Y-DNA J1c3d. The Islamic expansion in the 7th undoubtedly changed the demographics of the region, it probably was the case that several J1 subclades were spread throughout the Middle East prior to the 7th Century CE. Which have been retained by populations living very high up in the mountains, away from natural disasters, famines and invaders.

Another factor are wars and catastrophes, these can reduce the effective population size of peoples living in regions that are prone to wars and natural disasters and drastically minimize the population. A population that undergoes these events experiences a bottleneck and thus what genetic diversity the population had previously is lost.


Haplogroups were related to the locations of the same ancestral roots. Of course R, Q and P came from the same region or had a trajectory from there. In the case of I and J we can locate the origins of IJ where I and J are found in some ancient branches. J1 and J2 had the same J root and the basal branches of J1 came from more or less the same cradle and we always can point to Eastern Anatolia, Caucasus and Northern Iran as the best options.

IJ south of Black Sea, IJ split, I moves west to Europe, J moves east and split into J1 and J2 somewhere between Black Sea and Caspian Sea, North of Van Lake and Lake Urmia.

paulgill
09-02-2015, 11:39 PM
IMO this is why Soqotri J* deserves more attention, in fact J* as a whole deserves more attention.

Island jumping is not the answer unless there is I* there too, as both came out of IJ and I is basically found in Europe only. Soqotri J* is mostly from people moving first along the banks of Euphrates or Tigris Rivers and then
along the coastline of Arabian peninsula and eventually ending up there.

ZephyrousMandaru
09-03-2015, 02:01 AM
IJ has only been observed in a few cases in Iran, there's no reason to think the only place it could have split is between the Black and Caspian Seas, for all we now, it could have bifurcated anywhere between where Iran, Mesopotamia and the Caucasus is today or maybe even Central Asia for all we know. This is why aDNA is important and not guesstimates based on modern DNA.

paulgill
09-03-2015, 04:20 AM
IJ has only been observed in a few cases in Iran, there's no reason to think the only place it could have split is between the Black and Caspian Seas, for all we now, it could have bifurcated anywhere between where Iran, Mesopotamia and the Caucasus is today or maybe even Central Asia for all we know. This is why aDNA is important and not guesstimates based on modern DNA.

Interesting, aDNA Soup is important? Which is nothing more than the fallen leaves in the autumn, no one can tell what came from which tree. Keep at it, good luck!

King
09-03-2015, 11:08 PM
Should we just accept your claim as true then? Because if so, doesn't that sound like a fallacy in informal logic? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.