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J Man
07-04-2015, 10:44 PM
I think that there is a possibility Y-DNA haplogroup J may be linked to the WHG-UHG like component that is present among Near Easterners since in Europe it is Y-DNA haplogroup I that is linked to the original WHG population and we know that haplogroup J is distantly related to I as both come from IJ. Of course this could also be wrong though and we need ancient DNA from the Near East to solve this.

Thoughts?

Krefter
07-05-2015, 02:54 AM
I think that there is a possibility Y-DNA haplogroup J may be linked to the WHG-UHG like component that is present among Near Easterners since in Europe it is Y-DNA haplogroup I that is linked to the original WHG population and we know that haplogroup J is distantly related to I as both come from IJ. Of course this could also be wrong though and we need ancient DNA from the Near East to solve this.

Thoughts?

How could J not be WHG-related? K has been found in 2/2 over 40,000 years old Crown Eurasians and WHGs belonged to I.

My guess is:
IJK is a Crown Eurasian lineage. P(R, Q) became an "ANE" lineage while it's brothers became East Asian, etc. lineages. IJ became an "WHG" branch. LT is another Crown Eurasian lineage, maybe from "WHGs".

G, H, and E are Basal Eurasian lineages.

Sangarius
07-05-2015, 12:53 PM
How could J not be WHG-related? K has been found in 2/2 over 40,000 years old Crown Eurasians and WHGs belonged to I.

My guess is:
IJK is a Crown Eurasian lineage. P(R, Q) became an "ANE" lineage while it's brothers became East Asian, etc. lineages. IJ became an "WHG" branch. LT is another Crown Eurasian lineage, maybe from "WHGs".

G, H, and E are Basal Eurasian lineages.


I don't think that works out with regards to the phylogenetic tree. What about the West-Eurasian node from which WHG and ANE evolved? IJ and P(Q, R) are West-Eurasian, but haplogroups in between are either Crown-Eurasian (K) or East-Eurasian (NO). And some C carriers, like the ancestors of Kostenki 14 and La-Brana, might also be related to that West-Eurasian node? And how is E connected to G and H?

Anabasis
07-05-2015, 01:59 PM
In my opinion L and T is absolutely Basal Euroasian.

Passa
07-05-2015, 02:27 PM
How could J not be WHG-related? K has been found in 2/2 over 40,000 years old Crown Eurasians and WHGs belonged to I.

My guess is:
IJK is a Crown Eurasian lineage. P(R, Q) became an "ANE" lineage while it's brothers became East Asian, etc. lineages. IJ became an "WHG" branch. LT is another Crown Eurasian lineage, maybe from "WHGs".

G, H, and E are Basal Eurasian lineages.

Only E is Basal (West) Eurasian, all other Y-DNA hgs are Crown Eurasian (except D, which could be named as Basal East Eurasian according to evidence from Jomon aDNA).

Ignis90
07-05-2015, 04:25 PM
By this logic, WHG has to have something more basal to it, explaining why it has close ties with ANE while ANE (R ydna) keeps closer ties uniparentally with NO (East Asians).
So, I and J-bearing WHG(/UHG) should be substantially mixed with something close to R-bearing ANE in order to make sense of NO's close ties with R.

Just pure speculation.

The rest of the picture is probably even more complicated, with C being present in WHG, D being closely related to [African/West Eurasian] E and mostly carried by East Eurasians now and G making most of the Neolithic Farmer samples from Europe.

What is sure is IJK, and probably K was already widespread in [northern?] Eurasia by the time of Oase and Mal'ta and the modern diversity of K is centered in Southeast Asia. Lives little space for G and H.

Krefter
07-05-2015, 05:13 PM
By this logic, WHG has to have something more basal to it, explaining why it has close ties with ANE while ANE (R ydna) keeps closer ties uniparentally with NO (East Asians).
So, I and J-bearing WHG(/UHG) should be substantially mixed with something close to R-bearing ANE in order to make sense of NO's close ties with R.


Y DNA doesn't have to match up perfectly with autosomal DNA. P, IJ could have both been in people who were neither East or West Eurasian, in people like Ust Ishim. There were various orignal non-African lineages which existed in early West and East Eurasians. Some East Asian lineages are more related to West Eurasian lineages than to other East Asians lineages and vice versa.

Ignis90
07-05-2015, 05:40 PM
Y DNA doesn't have to match up perfectly with autosomal DNA. P, IJ could have both been in people who were neither East or West Eurasian, in people like Ust Ishim. There were various orignal non-African lineages which existed in early West and East Eurasians. Some East Asian lineages are more related to West Eurasian lineages than to other East Asians lineages and vice versa.

That's also what I think, considering how old K is. But then there is no reason to link J to WHG/UHG since modern carriers of J in the Middle East and NE/East Africa (and Soqotra too I guess) do not have a particularly high affinity to WHG.

J is more likely to be linked to Basal Eurasians in the Near East and Africa based on the modern frequency of J1 while J2 a Near Eastern ancestry with a more Eurasian flavor (maybe a secondary neolithic dispersal?).

ZephyrousMandaru
07-05-2015, 07:38 PM
J could be associated with UHG or proto-WHG, but I don't think that a distant relation with I conclusively establishes that to be the case. It would depend on how long ago I and J split, it might not be completely proto-WHG related and might have been diversifying in the Middle East long enough to be implicated in the diffusion of mostly Basal Eurasian with some proto-WHG, whereas E might be entirely Basal Eurasian in the Middle East.

ZephyrousMandaru
07-06-2015, 11:04 AM
A thought just occurred to me, there is an unknown variant and possibly ancient subclade of J found in Socotra known as J*. If J, like I, is associated with WHG, could the original J carriers resembled the native Socotris? Considering that the ancient European hunter-gatherers were known to be darker skinned, could those same J bearers also be dark skinned? If J is a proto-WHG or UHG marker, then I strongly suspect this to be the case.

Sangarius
07-06-2015, 02:07 PM
A thought just occurred to me, there is an unknown variant and possibly ancient subclade of J found in Socotra known as J*. If J, like I, is associated with WHG, could the original J carriers resembled the native Socotris? Considering that the ancient European hunter-gatherers were known to be darker skinned, could those same J bearers also be dark skinned? If J is a proto-WHG or UHG marker, then I strongly suspect this to be the case.


Is it established that the HG J in Socotra is really J*? Anyway, HG J is approximately 43,000 years old according to YFull. I guess it's safe to assume that most if not all Eurasians at that time were dark(er) skinned. But aside from that, even if modern Socotris were direct descendents of the original J people, there would be not much morphological continuity after such a long time. But afaik there isn't much evidence to assume that in the first place.

J Man
07-06-2015, 03:05 PM
Is it established that the HG J in Socotra is really J*? Anyway, HG J is approximately 43,000 years old according to YFull. I guess it's safe to assume that most if not all Eurasians at that time were dark(er) skinned. But aside from that, even if modern Socotris were direct descendents of the original J people, there would be not much morphological continuity after such a long time. But afaik there isn't much evidence to assume that in the first place.

The J* from Socotra is called J* because the vast majority of the males from Socotra that were tested in a 2008 study turned out to be positive for M304 but negative for the downstream M267 and M172 SNPs. They could and probably do have some other undiscovered downstream SNPs that could probably be called J3 or something like that if they were tested further. Either way they seem to belong to a J clade that has not really survived anywhere else.

Agamemnon
07-06-2015, 03:17 PM
The J* from Socotra is called J* because the vast majority of the males from Socotra that were tested in a 2008 study turned out to be positive for M304 but negative for the downstream M267 and M172 SNPs. They could and probably do have some other undiscovered downstream SNPs that could probably be called J3 or something like that if they were tested further. Either way they seem to belong to a J clade that has not really survived anywhere else.

Better still, they are likely to carry some markers which might reflect an intermediate stage between M304 and M267 (or even M172 for that matter). That's also a possibility.

J Man
07-06-2015, 03:51 PM
Better still, they are likely to carry some markers which might reflect an intermediate stage between M304 and M267 (or even M172 for that matter). That's also a possibility.

That is possible. Personally I think that the J* present in the population of Socotra arrived there from Southern Arabia or Yemen at some point in the remote past.