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Boudicca
07-05-2015, 06:26 PM
Hi,
This is a post I put on 23andme, I would also be interested in what people here have to say as I am very much on the fence about it! I have been told it is unusual.

My Dad is British and gets 1.1% Eastern European across two of his chromosomes on AC. From what I can tell, his Eastern European scores at Gedmatch don't appear to be anything unusual eg Dodecad v3 he gets 11.91% and Eurogenes EUTest k15 v2 he gets Baltic 14.24% and 7.78% Eastern European.
I have compared his scores to someone who is 1/8 Lithuanian 7/8 English and this person only gets marginally higher scores, so in terms of how well these calculators pick it up when it is diluted I suppose is questionable. I am waiting for a reply from this person about their score on AC. The segments appear on chromosome paintings and of the 28 British profiles I share with none get any Eastern European over 0.1%.

My Dad has lots of "Eastern European" segments on Countries of Ancestry that overlap each other, for example he has 3 people overlap of Belorussian ancestry and one of these areas appears to be where one segment is picked up on AC. I have not noticed this occur on the other British profiles I manage. Compared to them, his scores of Russian and Polish exceed 1% at 4GPs 5cM, comparable to someone he shares with who is 1/8 Polish 7/8 Colonial American (this person gets 0.5% Eastern European on AC and 1% Russian and 0.7% Poland on CoA).

He also gets 0.9% 4GPs declared AJ (I'm not suggesting AJ ancestry here but rather them having some Eastern European ancestry although he does get 0.1% AJ on AC).

He does have some brick walls, the most recent being his Great Grandmother who I think was illegitimate (either that or she really did marry her biological Uncle!!!). My Dad apart from the brick walls is 100% British, mostly English from central England with a Great Great Great Grandmother who was Irish. Even if this Eastern European was real how on earth would it get to central England assuming the ancestor was Dad's x4/x5 Great Grandparent? I don't think there were many Eastern Europeans in Britain around 1700-1850? It doesn't seem to add up with what I have found on British history.
Do any other Brits get similar scores and if so have you been able to trace an Eastern European ancestor or can anyone help with my history of Britain?!

Even if you don't have similar ancestry, comments would be appreciated particularly about whether it could be real and how well it is detected on AC. Many thanks.

Tolan
07-05-2015, 07:01 PM
It is likely that the two segments "east-European", come from the Indo-European times. Many genes Eastern Europe came to Western Europe via the Corded ware and other cultures that followed.

I'm not british, but Northwestern french
I also have an "east-European" segment in chromosome 6.
In Country of ancestry, people who have the same segment are from Eastern Europe (except Italy):
Poland, Norway, Ukraine, Sweden, Romania, Russia, Croatia, Estonia, Czech, Bosnia, Serbia, Italy

For comparison:
0.6% Eastern-European AC (1 segment)
Country of Ancestry (4GP, 5cM): Poland: 0.9%, Ukraine 0.4%, Romania 0.4%, Russia 0.3%, Estonia 0.2%, ect .

Boudicca
07-05-2015, 07:34 PM
Wow that's a long time ago, I didn't realise this test went that far back!! I know it says 500 years but I thought realistically maybe 1000 years but had no idea it could go that far back! Just out of interest, is it possible your segment is on the "sticky" area of chr 6? My Dad gets 0.1% Yakut on chr 6 and I know a lot of people get odd scores there, a search for “Ancestry composition noise/glitch for a lot of results on chr 6” brings up examples. I'd be interested to see if it does appear there for you or not.

lgmayka
07-05-2015, 10:11 PM
Even if this Eastern European was real how on earth would it get to central England assuming the ancestor was Dad's x4/x5 Great Grandparent? I don't think there were many Eastern Europeans in Britain around 1700-1850? It doesn't seem to add up with what I have found on British history.
According to this reference (http://untoldlondon.org.uk/articles/read/polish_migration_to_london_a_drama_in_three_acts):
---
In 1834 there were estimated to be 400 Polish refugees living in Britain.
---

Nonzero, but a very small number.

Boudicca
07-05-2015, 10:22 PM
Ok these segments seem to appear as "East Med" or "West Asian" on the Gedmatch paintings for Dodecad v3 and Eurogenes k13?! His scores for these ARE higher than "typical" Brits on the calculators. His MENA is supported nicely by corresponding painting results but is it possible AC could be mistaking the EE for something more dare I say it "Balkan"?!

Agamemnon
07-05-2015, 10:31 PM
Ok these segments seem to appear as "East Med" or "West Asian" on the Gedmatch paintings for Dodecad v3 and Eurogenes k13?! His scores for these ARE higher than "typical" Brits on the calculators. His MENA is supported nicely by corresponding painting results but is it possible AC could be mistaking the EE for something more dare I say it "Balkan"?!

That's not exactly surprising considering the fact that he gets 0.9% AJ.

Tolan
07-05-2015, 11:03 PM
Wow that's a long time ago, I didn't realise this test went that far back!! I know it says 500 years but I thought realistically maybe 1000 years but had no idea it could go that far back! Just out of interest, is it possible your segment is on the "sticky" area of chr 6? My Dad gets 0.1% Yakut on chr 6 and I know a lot of people get odd scores there, a search for “Ancestry composition noise/glitch for a lot of results on chr 6” brings up examples. I'd be interested to see if it does appear there for you or not.

I do not know what it is "sticky area".
The segment on chromosome 6 extends from the position 139000000 to 152000000.
With HarappaWorld, in this particular segment, gives me an atypical result, probably Indo-European (Yamnaya) with 23.81% Baloch:

Chromosome# 6 Position: 139006406 to 151998263
window size: 1009 SNPs | 12.99Mb

1.85% S-Indian
23.81% Baloch
26.73% Caucasian
13.39% NE-Euro
4.20% SE-Asian
0.00% Siberian
0.01% NE-Asian
0.00% Papuan
0.00% American
0.00% Beringian
24.83% Mediterranean
5.18% SW-Asian
0.00% San
0.00% E-African
0.00% Pygmy
0.00% W-African

Boudicca
07-06-2015, 06:48 AM
That's not exactly surprising considering the fact that he gets 0.9% AJ.

But he gets no actual Balkan on AC?! His Southern European overall is only 0.2%! Even his 0.1% AJ on AC at Gedmatch appears Middle Eastern so what on earth is the 1.1% EE supposed to be lol?!
On chr 3 where he gets one large segment of EE and his MENA on AC his chromosome percentages at Gedmatch are:
North Atlantic 30.4%
Baltic 28.5%
East Med 17.1%
West Med 15.9%
West Asian 3.1%
Red Sea 2.2%
SSA 2.0%
That's nearly a quarter of that chromosome pulling to the MENA region!!

Chr 4 where he has his AJ is:
East Med 8.2%
West Asian 3.3%
Red Sea 3.6%

And chr 6 where his EE appears is:
East Med 19.3% second highest after Atlantic!!!!

I have a head ache!!

Boudicca
07-13-2015, 10:14 PM
Hmm just found Dad's x5 Great Grandparents' surnames were Spademan and Surgey...could they be Eastern European names made to sound a bit more "English" there certainly doesn't seem to be much info on the names!

thetick
07-26-2015, 03:26 AM
Also note there are large and significant Polish/Scottish connections. See http://www.krakowpost.com/2014/03/scots-in-poland-poles-in-scotland/

I think I see this with my full mtdna which that line is all Polish back to early 1800's. All my 1/2 step matches are Polish/Russian and all my 3 step matches are Scottish.

Baltimore1937
07-28-2015, 07:40 PM
I saw in passing somewhere a long time ago that Bluetooth, King of the Danes, hired mercenary troops that included, or entirely were, West Slavs. They could be trusted more than his own kinfolk in the palace. Forkbeard, son of Bluetooth, raided/invaded England. Isn't it likely that his forces included some of those Slavs too?

Agamemnon
07-28-2015, 10:30 PM
I saw in passing somewhere a long time ago that Bluetooth, King of the Danes, hired mercenary troops that included, or entirely were, West Slavs. They could be trusted more than his own kinfolk in the palace. Forkbeard, son of Bluetooth, raided/invaded England. Isn't it likely that his forces included some of those Slavs too?

Interesting, this could explain the fact that the segments my mother shares with Slavs are shared with Scandinavians.

pwm68
08-10-2015, 07:29 PM
Hi Boudicca,

Is your dad's 1.1% EE on speculative? I get 1.2% on spec, sticks around at 0.9% on standard and is gone (with basically everything else bar broadly N-Euro/Euro!) in conservative. 1/4 of my ancestry is German (I thought) rest is British Isles. Discovered on Ancestry.com my GGG-Grandfather immigrated to England in 1800s, some listings show he came from Posen, Prussia (modern day Poland), but I have found no solid evidence (site does have a scan of his Alien arrival document issued in Dover, dated 1837). He settled in Manchester, in the North West, so i shouldn't rule out your (possible) ancestor finding his/her way to the Midlands during this period!

PS.

COA 4gp5cM shows 1.4% Poland, 1.0% Russia for me.

Hope this is of any help.

Boudicca
08-17-2015, 09:41 PM
Hi Boudicca,

Is your dad's 1.1% EE on speculative? I get 1.2% on spec, sticks around at 0.9% on standard and is gone (with basically everything else bar broadly N-Euro/Euro!) in conservative. 1/4 of my ancestry is German (I thought) rest is British Isles. Discovered on Ancestry.com my GGG-Grandfather immigrated to England in 1800s, some listings show he came from Posen, Prussia (modern day Poland), but I have found no solid evidence (site does have a scan of his Alien arrival document issued in Dover, dated 1837). He settled in Manchester, in the North West, so i shouldn't rule out your (possible) ancestor finding his/her way to the Midlands during this period!

PS.

COA 4gp5cM shows 1.4% Poland, 1.0% Russia for me.

Hope this is of any help.

Hi pwm68, that's really helpful thank you! Yes the 1.1% EE is on speculative and like you is gone in conservative. His biggest cousin match so far is a Russian that shares 11.5cM with but she has not done CoA otherwise I think that would bump the score up! My Dad has an Irish ancestor b. 1798 in Wicklow...I did consider Palatine German as a possibility! I suppose it's knowing how far back this EE represents...I have seen Germans getting EE. As you are 1/4 German, just out of interest where did your other German ancestors settle in the UK?

Tomenable
08-18-2015, 01:14 AM
Bluetooth, King of the Danes, hired mercenary troops that included, or entirely were, West Slavs. They could be trusted more than his own kinfolk in the palace. Forkbeard, son of Bluetooth, raided/invaded England. Isn't it likely that his forces included some of those Slavs too?

Indeed there were West Slavic (or Vendisk, in Danish) mercenaries fighting in Britain.

More specifically from Slavic polities which were located in what is now East Germany, and from Poland. Orderic Vitalis (1075-1142) in his "Historia Ecclesiastica" wrote that in 1069 the Danish army of Sweyn Estridsson was supported by "Poleni" (Poles) and "Veleti" (a.k.a. Lutici). Also Canute in years 1015/1016 was supported by Slavic reinforcements, sent by Polish king Boleslav I, who was Canute's brother-in-law.

Canute visited Poland in 1014/1015 to take his Polish mother back to Denmark, which was described by German chronicler Thietmar of Merseburg. Here is how Thietmar began his account of that, in English translation: "(...) in several words I will mention these lizard droppings [Canute and his brothers], that is sons of oppressive Sweyn [Forkbeard]. They were born to the daughter of duke Mieszko, sister of his son and successor Boleslav (...)". Also another source says about that ("Pariter vero Sclavoniam adierunt, et matrem suam quae illuc morabatur reduxerunt"). Thietmar also wrote that Poland and Denmark were allies at that time (which is confirmed by Jomsborg Saga and Aggrip Svensson). Thietmar's father was defeated by Mieszko at Cedynia. Thietmar disliked Poles & Danes (hence he called Forkbeard's sons lizard droppings).

Harald Bluetooth was using Slavic mercenaries too, as described by Saxo Grammaticus and confirmed by excavations at Trelleborg:

"(...) The famous Danish chronicler Saxo, in his ‘Danish History’ gives an account of the reign of Harald Bluetooth (...) He also reports that the king, towards the end of his rule and in a period contemporary with the Trelleborg fortresses, based his power on an army composed of ‘Danes and Slavs’. According to a twelfth-century chronicler, the so-called ‘law of the Kings’, retainers became necessary because of the heterogeneous ethnic composition of the royal retinue at the beginning of the eleventh century (for a more detailed review of the sources compare M. Andersen 1982; Damgaard-Sørensen 1991; Dobat 2010). (...)"

Harald Bluetooth's wife was actually Slavic - she was Tofa, daughter of Mstivoy, duke of the Obodrite confederation:

From page 5 out of 12: http://history.org.ua/JournALL/ruthenica/ruthenica_2011_suppl4/10.pdf


The wife of their paternal grandfather, Haraldr Gormsson (Bluetooth), was a Slav called Tofa. She was a daughter of Mstivoy, apparently the princely ruler of the Slavic tribe Obodrites. It is not entirely clear whether Tofa was their grandmother, i.e., whether she had been the mother of Svein Haraldsson (Forkbeard)

=================================================

Slavic mercenaries or allies were also present in Sweyn Forkbeard's army, as written above by Baltimore1937.

Boudicca
08-18-2015, 07:02 AM
I saw in passing somewhere a long time ago that Bluetooth, King of the Danes, hired mercenary troops that included, or entirely were, West Slavs. They could be trusted more than his own kinfolk in the palace. Forkbeard, son of Bluetooth, raided/invaded England. Isn't it likely that his forces included some of those Slavs too?

But how likely is it that an EE ancestor from 1000 years ago has passed on two quite large segments of DNA now picked up on AC?

pwm68
08-20-2015, 12:54 PM
Hi,
I suppose with that percentage we could unscientifically assume it to be from a GGGG or GGG-grandparent (percentage could be greater if there is a large amount of unspecified 'broadly European' data on AC).
Have you tried looking on Ancestry.com? there are plenty of records you can get some info from, even without paying the subscription if you are lucky!

This may also help http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/familyhistory/next_steps/adv_04_migrants_01.shtml

My ancestors all settled in the North West as far as I am aware, mainly Liverpool, small business owners Pork butchers etc. I believe many of my relatives emigrated or where displaced/deported during the offset of WW1 (see Liverpool Lusitania riots).

Boudicca
08-21-2015, 04:25 PM
Thanks pwm68, yes I have an Ancestry account and I am stumped where this is coming from. It is possible my Dad's Great Great Grandmother got pregnant with another man's child but I have no solid evidence for this other than the fact that the Great Great Grandmother's daughter appears to marry her biological Uncle and the Great Great Grandmother was already 3 months pregnant when she married her husband (who is down on the birth certificate as the father of her daughter), and he was the brother of her daughter's future husband. There are brick walls further back too. I am tempted to say that I don't think descendants of this branch look English but I am aware that looks don't always reflect ancestry! My avatar is a picture of my Dad's Grandmother, the daughter of the potential contributor of the EE!!!! Does she look 1/4 EE?!
Out of interest where are you placed on the Global Similarity Map? Dad sits in the German/French/Austrian boxes. The Brits I share with fall within some British Isles category and French or German but they don't seem to get Austrian which seems to support the AC.