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View Full Version : Do I (or my father) have some gypsy/roma ancestry? Second opinion.



snow6565
07-12-2015, 02:16 AM
23andme: M565883

My father: M223508

I run those kits in different gedmatch calculators (Dodecad, MDLP, K13) and received controversial results.
I am asking for your expert second opinion.
Thank you so much.

MikeWhalen
07-12-2015, 02:20 AM
Welcome to the forum Snow!

I am afraid I cant help you with this as its not an area I know much about, but there are alot of good people here that I hope will be able to

good luck

Mike

evon
07-12-2015, 02:38 AM
I can send you a sharing invite on 23andme and check it for you, just PM me your 23andme username and I will invite to share...

Varun R
07-12-2015, 02:55 AM
Snow,

I'm not seeing anything particularly unusual in admixture proportions and chromosome paintings. Do you have an enrichment in Romani surnames/ uniparental markers appearing in DNA Relatives in 23andMe? That should give you a better idea.

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2011/01/romani-mtdna.html
-Also, y-haplogroup H1a1a-M82

This person appears to have Romani ancestry- Russian adoptee
Gedmatch: M837604

snow6565
07-14-2015, 06:35 AM
Dear evon,
I could not send you private messages... I did not post 10 messages yet
Do you have gedmatch 23andme kit?
Thank you

snow6565
07-14-2015, 06:36 AM
Thank you Varun
I will run it at gedmatch

snow6565
07-14-2015, 06:52 AM
Dear Varun

My Eurogenes K13:

1 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Chamar @ 1.91
2 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Sakilli @ 1.92
3 97.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.9% Chenchu @ 1.94
4 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Kol @ 1.95
5 97.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.9% North_Kannadi @ 1.95
6 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Piramalai @ 1.96
7 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Uttar_Pradesh @ 1.97
8 97.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.9% Dusadh @ 1.98
9 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Velamas @ 2
10 97.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.7% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 2.01
11 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Dharkar @ 2.01
12 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Kanjar @ 2.02
13 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Kurumba @ 2.02
14 96.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.2% Bangladeshi @ 2.09
15 96.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.2% Kshatriya @ 2.13
16 96.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.3% Brahmin_UP @ 2.16
17 96.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.1% Gujarati @ 2.17
18 96.1% Southwest_Russian + 3.9% Gujarati @ 2.19
19 96.7% Southwest_Russian + 3.3% Velamas @ 2.21
20 96.1% Southwest_Russian + 3.9% Kshatriya @ 2.22

M837604 Eurogenes K13:

1 87.4% Moldavian + 12.6% North_Kannadi @ 4.81
2 88.1% Moldavian + 11.9% Chamar @ 4.92
3 86.7% Moldavian + 13.3% Kanjar @ 5.02
4 85.3% Croatian + 14.7% North_Kannadi @ 5.03
5 88.3% Moldavian + 11.7% Sakilli @ 5.08
6 87.1% Moldavian + 12.9% Uttar_Pradesh @ 5.1
7 87.4% Moldavian + 12.6% Kol @ 5.12
8 84.3% Croatian + 15.7% Dharkar @ 5.12
9 84.5% Croatian + 15.5% Kanjar @ 5.14
10 86.7% Moldavian + 13.3% Dharkar @ 5.14
11 88.2% Moldavian + 11.8% Piramalai @ 5.16
12 87.8% Moldavian + 12.2% Dusadh @ 5.21
13 87.7% Moldavian + 12.3% Chenchu @ 5.26
14 85.6% Croatian + 14.4% Kurumba @ 5.26
15 85.6% Croatian + 14.4% Dusadh @ 5.28
16 87.8% Moldavian + 12.2% Kurumba @ 5.29
17 86.2% Croatian + 13.8% Chamar @ 5.29
18 83.1% Croatian + 16.9% Kshatriya @ 5.3
19 85.5% Croatian + 14.5% Velamas @ 5.3
20 83.2% Croatian + 16.8% Bangladeshi @ 5.31

tamilgangster
07-14-2015, 09:39 AM
Dear Varun

My Eurogenes K13:

1 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Chamar @ 1.91
2 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Sakilli @ 1.92
3 97.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.9% Chenchu @ 1.94
4 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Kol @ 1.95
5 97.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.9% North_Kannadi @ 1.95
6 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Piramalai @ 1.96
7 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Uttar_Pradesh @ 1.97
8 97.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.9% Dusadh @ 1.98
9 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Velamas @ 2
10 97.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.7% Austroasiatic_Ho @ 2.01
11 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Dharkar @ 2.01
12 97% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3% Kanjar @ 2.02
13 97.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 2.8% Kurumba @ 2.02
14 96.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.2% Bangladeshi @ 2.09
15 96.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.2% Kshatriya @ 2.13
16 96.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.3% Brahmin_UP @ 2.16
17 96.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 3.1% Gujarati @ 2.17
18 96.1% Southwest_Russian + 3.9% Gujarati @ 2.19
19 96.7% Southwest_Russian + 3.3% Velamas @ 2.21
20 96.1% Southwest_Russian + 3.9% Kshatriya @ 2.22

M837604 Eurogenes K13:

1 87.4% Moldavian + 12.6% North_Kannadi @ 4.81
2 88.1% Moldavian + 11.9% Chamar @ 4.92
3 86.7% Moldavian + 13.3% Kanjar @ 5.02
4 85.3% Croatian + 14.7% North_Kannadi @ 5.03
5 88.3% Moldavian + 11.7% Sakilli @ 5.08
6 87.1% Moldavian + 12.9% Uttar_Pradesh @ 5.1
7 87.4% Moldavian + 12.6% Kol @ 5.12
8 84.3% Croatian + 15.7% Dharkar @ 5.12
9 84.5% Croatian + 15.5% Kanjar @ 5.14
10 86.7% Moldavian + 13.3% Dharkar @ 5.14
11 88.2% Moldavian + 11.8% Piramalai @ 5.16
12 87.8% Moldavian + 12.2% Dusadh @ 5.21
13 87.7% Moldavian + 12.3% Chenchu @ 5.26
14 85.6% Croatian + 14.4% Kurumba @ 5.26
15 85.6% Croatian + 14.4% Dusadh @ 5.28
16 87.8% Moldavian + 12.2% Kurumba @ 5.29
17 86.2% Croatian + 13.8% Chamar @ 5.29
18 83.1% Croatian + 16.9% Kshatriya @ 5.3
19 85.5% Croatian + 14.5% Velamas @ 5.3
20 83.2% Croatian + 16.8% Bangladeshi @ 5.31

at 2-3 % it could easily just be noise due to excess ANE, especially when using those reference populations some south asian will show up. What is your harappa DNA score that can give a better picture. What is your ethnicity

evon
07-14-2015, 09:57 AM
Dear evon,
I could not send you private messages... I did not post 10 messages yet
Do you have gedmatch 23andme kit?
Thank you

I sent you a message instead, hopefully that will work...

and for the record, the best way to determine Romani ancestry is not admixture calculators, but segment matching with other Romani, as they are a tight knit group in terms of DNA, very similar to Ashkenazi Jews in that regard...My grandmother recently got a Romani DNA cousin from Russia whose South Asian was 27%, its the highest ive seen so far, but for Western and Northern Europe these levels tend to be much lower, and usually hower around 1-10% maximum..

snow6565
07-14-2015, 03:40 PM
Dear evon,

I tried to respond and what I got... Sorry snow6565 you must have 10 posts in order to send PM's. Your current post count is 4.
It looks like I would need to reach 10 posts and then I would be able to send private messages...

snow6565
07-14-2015, 03:42 PM
Dear evon,

My father eurogen K13 South Asian - 3.4%...

snow6565
07-14-2015, 03:42 PM
Dear evon my FTDNA MDLP WORLD Indian - ~0.7% as well

snow6565
07-14-2015, 03:43 PM
Dear evon,
When I got the FTDNA results back I was surprised that my Central/South Asian component was - 5%...

snow6565
07-14-2015, 04:35 PM
What is balochi?

snow6565
07-14-2015, 04:35 PM
... and makrani?

evon
07-14-2015, 06:16 PM
Hehe, nice going..will check when you accept the invite...will look at segment matching in CoA mainly and also matching with known Romani..

evon
07-14-2015, 07:43 PM
I had a look, i compared you to 10 people of known Romani ancestry and had a look at your Countries of Ancestry, but both did not give me any signs that you have any Romani connections, but I do think you have some jewish ancestry which could give an impression of Romani ancestry based on the matches in the Balkans etc...hope this answers your questions..

snow6565
07-14-2015, 09:15 PM
Dear tamil,

Thank you
This is my Harappa
What do you think
Is that ancient north eurasian admixture noise.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.9
2 Mediterranean 17.63
3 Caucasian 12.65
4 Baloch 9.47
5 Siberian 1.36
6 SW-Asian 1.2
7 S-Indian 0.78
8 Beringian 0.59
9 SE-Asian 0.31
10 American 0.11

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 ukranian (yunusbayev) 3.68
2 slovenian (xing) 7.76
3 mordovian (yunusbayev) 8.86
4 belorussian (behar) 9.07
5 hungarian (behar) 9.42
6 russian (behar) 9.87
7 russian (hgdp) 12.31
8 n-european (xing) 13.32
9 utahn-white (hapmap) 14.63
10 utahn-white (1000genomes) 16.25
11 lithuanian (behar) 16.42
12 british (1000genomes) 17.76
13 orcadian (hgdp) 17.87
14 chuvash (behar) 20.28
15 french (hgdp) 21.78
16 romanian-a (behar) 22.46
17 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 24.22
18 finnish (1000genomes) 28.46
19 italian (hgdp) 32.12
20 spaniard (behar) 33.38

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.57
2 95.2% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.61
3 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.65
4 94.7% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.3% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.81
5 94.9% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.1% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.88
6 93.5% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 6.5% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 1.92
7 94.7% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.3% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.92
8 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.96
9 94.9% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.1% burusho (hgdp) @ 2
10 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.03
11 95.1% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.9% sindhi (harappa) @ 2.07
12 94.9% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.1% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 2.07
13 94.5% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.5% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.09
14 94.4% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.6% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 2.1
15 95% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 2.14
16 95.4% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.18
17 95.4% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.6% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) @ 2.18
18 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.19
19 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 2.2
20 95.2% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.8% kashmiri (harappa) @ 2.2

snow6565
07-14-2015, 09:17 PM
I am from Eastern Europe... Belarus/Poland/Ukraine/Lithuania area.

tamilgangster
07-15-2015, 10:15 AM
Dear tamil,

Thank you
This is my Harappa
What do you think
Is that ancient north eurasian admixture noise.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 NE-Euro 55.9
2 Mediterranean 17.63
3 Caucasian 12.65
4 Baloch 9.47
5 Siberian 1.36
6 SW-Asian 1.2
7 S-Indian 0.78
8 Beringian 0.59
9 SE-Asian 0.31
10 American 0.11

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 ukranian (yunusbayev) 3.68
2 slovenian (xing) 7.76
3 mordovian (yunusbayev) 8.86
4 belorussian (behar) 9.07
5 hungarian (behar) 9.42
6 russian (behar) 9.87
7 russian (hgdp) 12.31
8 n-european (xing) 13.32
9 utahn-white (hapmap) 14.63
10 utahn-white (1000genomes) 16.25
11 lithuanian (behar) 16.42
12 british (1000genomes) 17.76
13 orcadian (hgdp) 17.87
14 chuvash (behar) 20.28
15 french (hgdp) 21.78
16 romanian-a (behar) 22.46
17 bulgarian (yunusbayev) 24.22
18 finnish (1000genomes) 28.46
19 italian (hgdp) 32.12
20 spaniard (behar) 33.38

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% brahui (hgdp) @ 1.57
2 95.2% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.8% balochi (hgdp) @ 1.61
3 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% makrani (hgdp) @ 1.65
4 94.7% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.3% kalash (hgdp) @ 1.81
5 94.9% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.1% bhatia (harappa) @ 1.88
6 93.5% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 6.5% tajik (yunusbayev) @ 1.92
7 94.7% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.3% pathan (hgdp) @ 1.92
8 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% sindhi (hgdp) @ 1.96
9 94.9% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.1% burusho (hgdp) @ 2
10 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% punjabi-arain (xing) @ 2.03
11 95.1% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.9% sindhi (harappa) @ 2.07
12 94.9% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.1% punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) @ 2.07
13 94.5% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.5% pashtun (harappa) @ 2.09
14 94.4% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5.6% haryana-jatt (harappa) @ 2.1
15 95% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 5% punjabi-khatri (harappa) @ 2.14
16 95.4% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.18
17 95.4% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.6% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) @ 2.18
18 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% kashmiri-pandit (reich) @ 2.19
19 95.3% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.7% punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) @ 2.2
20 95.2% ukranian (yunusbayev) + 4.8% kashmiri (harappa) @ 2.2

Your South Indian component is way too low for their to be any chance of gypsy ancestry. Romanian gypsies score 22% south indian. Banjaras score 52% South Indian. Ur results seem typical for ukranians. Slighty higher baloch, but northern europeans have higher baloch than southern europeans, and this is due to noise from ANE

evon
07-15-2015, 11:06 AM
Your South Indian component is way too low for their to be any chance of gypsy ancestry. Romanian gypsies score 22% south indian. Banjaras score 52% South Indian. Ur results seem typical for ukranians. Slighty higher baloch, but northern europeans have higher baloch than southern europeans, and this is due to noise from ANE

You cant use Harappa to determine Romani ancestry alone (its creator told me my family didnt have Romani ancestry as an example), because the common DNA components found in most Romani is not exclusively made up of only South Asian DNA, it is also Middle Eastern and South East European, as well as various components in other locations that define sub-groupings, hence while Romanian Romani might have 20% South Asian using 23andme, a Finnish Romani might only have 1% etc..

You can see here for a general overview of the subject:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/10/roma-multitudes/#.VaY8NZN9z7A

I have yet to see a good calculator that can pick up Romani ancestry in a satisfactory fashion and be used on most Romani groups in Europe, hence my recommendation is to focus on segment sharing instead rather then look for South Asian % in Europeans using various calculators...Its the same I would recommend if wanting to find Jewish ancestry, because these two groups are very tight knit, so if you match one, chances are you will match several on the same spot...

tamilgangster
07-15-2015, 11:33 AM
You cant use Harappa to determine Romani ancestry alone (its creator told me my family didnt have Romani ancestry as an example), because the common DNA components found in most Romani is not exclusively made up of only South Asian DNA, it is also Middle Eastern and South East European, as well as various components in other locations that define sub-groupings, hence while Romanian Romani might have 20% South Asian using 23andme, a Finnish Romani might only have 1% etc..

You can see here for a general overview of the subject:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/10/roma-multitudes/#.VaY8NZN9z7A

I have yet to see a good calculator that can pick up Romani ancestry in a satisfactory fashion and be used on most Romani groups in Europe, hence my recommendation is to focus on segment sharing instead rather then look for South Asian % in Europeans using various calculators...Its the same I would recommend if wanting to find Jewish ancestry, because these two groups are very tight knit, so if you match one, chances are you will match several on the same spot...

Roma originated from south asia, so if someone has partial roma ancestry it would be impossible to not have any south indian component. The date of the roma admixture is "recent" so isolating it would be very easy. Jewish ancestry came from the levant which genetically isn't that far from europe, and there have been alot of geneflow between europe and the eastern Mediteranean making it hard to distinguish a definite source. The south Indian component is much farther away from any european component and the farthest west it exist is iran at 5 percent. So roma ancestry is indistinguishable, by the presence of the south Indian component.

evon
07-15-2015, 02:48 PM
Roma originated from south asia, so if someone has partial roma ancestry it would be impossible to not have any south indian component. The date of the roma admixture is "recent" so isolating it would be very easy. Jewish ancestry came from the levant which genetically isn't that far from europe, and there have been alot of geneflow between europe and the eastern Mediteranean making it hard to distinguish a definite source. The south Indian component is much farther away from any european component and the farthest west it exist is iran at 5 percent. So roma ancestry is indistinguishable, by the presence of the south Indian component.

This is not correct, not all Romani groups will have visible South Asian admixture using the known admixture calculators, as can be seen in Welsh Kale in the study looked at by Razib Khan in the link provided, this is because Romanis living in different regions in Europe has experienced different levels of assimilation, as well as input from various sources..

Another thing that is important is that Romani peoples did not form as a defined people, or ethnicity until they were inside the Byzantine empire, and so the theories proposed suggest that they were a composite people, whom have mingled with others, as in Armenia and Iran prior to their arrival in Europe, and also with Greeks and others afterwards, which is supported by the regular Middle Eastern DNA presence found alongside Balkan and South Asian DNA across most Romanis today all over Europe.

But I agree that South Asian DNA is one of the defining DNA signatures, but its not the only one, and I suspect we will in the coming years get more information on the Middle Eastern component as well, which I suspect is Iranian in origin, hence why Romanis commonly get Middle Eastern % using 23andme's Ancestry Composition, as well as Iranian segment matches along with South Asian ones...

Here are a few Romani peoples and people with known Romani connections from various countries, I have not included some recent cousins, among whom is one with 27% South Asian, and 30% Middle Eastern:

http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/11001591_10152711460481630_8105435991872745068_o.j pg
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/11002667_10152711460186630_2229177622501715136_o.j pg

Many also dont get any South Asian, despite having several known Romani segment matches, such as myself and a few British Romanis I share with...

snow6565
07-15-2015, 02:53 PM
Thank you tamil.

I run the gypsy kit in harappa.

1 NE-Euro 42.55
2 Mediterranean 16.71
3 Caucasian 14.47
4 Baloch 10.92
5 S-Indian 7.97
6 SW-Asian 3.04
7 Siberian 2.53
8 Beringian 0.79
9 Papuan 0.71
10 SE-Asian 0.31


She is gypsy. S-Indians - 8%.

In my case... what about dilution? I agree that I do not have 100%. But what about dilution? What you think.

snow6565
07-15-2015, 04:01 PM
Dear evon,
Could you please put your Harappa admixture. Thank you.

evon
07-15-2015, 07:37 PM
Some Romani cousins of ours using Harappa:

Norwegian Romani 1:

1 NE-Euro 54.04
2 Mediterranean 26.38
3 Baloch 9.5
4 Caucasian 4.55
5 S-Indian 1.51
6 SW-Asian 1.12
7 Siberian 1.01
8 W-African 0.96
9 Papuan 0.58
10 Pygmy 0.21
11 Beringian 0.13

Norwegian Romani 2:

1 NE-Euro 50.28
2 Mediterranean 25.47
3 Baloch 9.65
4 Caucasian 9.62
5 S-Indian 1.82
6 SW-Asian 1.24
7 Beringian 0.71
8 Siberian 0.61
9 SE-Asian 0.55
10 American 0.04

Norwegian Romani 3:

1 NE-Euro 53.22
2 Mediterranean 29.59
3 Baloch 9.57
4 Caucasian 5.53
5 SW-Asian 1.09
6 American 0.76
7 Beringian 0.23

Russian Romani:

1 Caucasian 22.62
2 S-Indian 22.22
3 NE-Euro 17.84
4 Baloch 16.8
5 Mediterranean 11.08
6 SW-Asian 6.68
7 SE-Asian 1.33
8 Siberian 0.99
9 NE-Asian 0.34
10 Papuan 0.1

The last sample has over 30% Middle Eastern and 27% South Asian using Ancestry Composition.

My grandmother who has most South Asian in 23andme get the following:


1 NE-Euro 56.25
2 Mediterranean 28.66
3 Baloch 11.05
4 Caucasian 2.48
5 SE-Asian 0.85
6 SW-Asian 0.67
7 Papuan 0.04

But again, I dont think you have any Romani ancestry, and I also dont think Harappa is a good tool for detecting Romani ancestry as tamilgangster seem to suggest.

snow6565
07-15-2015, 09:05 PM
Thank you evon.
One more kindness.
Could you please put Eurogenes K13 for you and your Norwegian relatives... and you will see very interesting data!! Really! I will explain them.
I just finished one interesting analysis... and found Eurogenes K13 to be very useful for Romani admixture initial analysis.
Thank you again.
I totally agree with you that Harappa is not OK for Roma admixture.

evon
07-15-2015, 10:52 PM
Dot think K13 is much better, but here you go:

Norwegian Romani 1:

1 North_Atlantic 44.4
2 Baltic 29.5
3 West_Med 13.21
4 West_Asian 4.98
5 South_Asian 1.83
6 Red_Sea 1.77
7 Siberian 1.66
8 Sub-Saharan 1.13
9 Oceanian 1.09
10 Amerindian 0.4
11 East_Med 0.04

Norwegian Romani 2:

1 North_Atlantic 40.47
2 Baltic 28.62
3 West_Med 11.98
4 West_Asian 8.71
5 East_Med 4.24
6 South_Asian 2.88
7 Siberian 1.92
8 Amerindian 0.52
9 Sub-Saharan 0.4
10 Red_Sea 0.14
11 Oceanian 0.12

Norwegian Romani 3:

1 North_Atlantic 51.8
2 Baltic 26.3
3 West_Med 9.46
4 East_Med 5.3
5 West_Asian 3.84
6 Amerindian 1.73
7 Northeast_African 0.82
8 Oceanian 0.39
9 Red_Sea 0.3
10 Siberian 0.05

Russian Romani:

1 South_Asian 27.71
2 West_Asian 17.58
3 East_Med 14.52
4 Baltic 12.82
5 West_Med 12.23
6 North_Atlantic 8.28
7 Red_Sea 3.02
8 East_Asian 1.96
9 Siberian 0.85
10 Northeast_African 0.81
11 Oceanian 0.21


Grandma:

1 North_Atlantic 47.22
2 Baltic 29.73
3 West_Med 10.32
4 West_Asian 5.28
5 East_Med 3.7
6 South_Asian 1.3
7 Amerindian 0.65
8 East_Asian 0.57
9 Oceanian 0.37
10 Siberian 0.29
11 Red_Sea 0.23
12 Northeast_African 0.2
13 Sub-Saharan 0.13

snow6565
07-15-2015, 11:32 PM
Thank evon.

Very interesting admixtures!

This is the average Norwegian K13 admixture:

North Atlantic - 51.15
Baltic - 28.61
West Med - 9.91
West Asian - 5.60
East Med - 1.73
Red Sea - 0.43
South Asian - 0.42
East Asian - 0.36
Siberian - 0.64
Amerindian - 0.91
Oceanian - 0.15
North-East African - 0.01
Sub-Saharan African - 0.10

Your relative Nor 2 has definitely elevated S-Asian percentage! With above average W-Asian component as well.
Even Nor1 has a bit elevated S-Asian number as well.
I would say S-Asian admixture below 1.5% - noise (most likely due to ?ASE (Ancestral South Eurasians)... not ANE! like Tamil mentioned)! Above 2% - recent ancestry within 2-4 generations. This is my opinion!
But again, it's very difficult to correctly assign proportions of ancient ancestry to present-day samples even for ANE, not saying about ASE; Eurogenes ANE K7 was specifically designed for ANE... ASE calculation is a byproduct of the admixture test that doesn't mean anything.
S-Asian admixture in Norwegians people should be below 1%!! due to possible ASE.
Evon, based on your report, I can make a definite conclusion about possible Romany admixture in your relative Nor 2, and possible in Nor 1. Grandmother - questionable...

This is Russian AJ K13 admixture:

1 East_Med 33.83
2 West_Med 19.27
3 North_Atlantic 18.71
4 West_Asian 10.89
5 Baltic 7.68
6 Red_Sea 5.96
7 Siberian 0.96
8 South_Asian 0.89
9 East_Asian 0.72
10 Amerindian 0.58
11 Northeast_African 0.44
12 Oceanian 0.06

Even this Ashkenazi person has very low S-Asian component.

evon
07-16-2015, 11:17 AM
One problem with that analysis is that my family is part of the Norwegian sample in many of Eurogenes calculators, usually as Western Norwegian, but sometimes just as Norwegian.. And until all the Romani components have been mapped correctly, I dont think any calculator can prove or disprove Romani ancestry as such, and segment sharing is by far the best method for detecting it.

My grandmothers Romani ancestry is from aprox 1830, while my grandfathers is from aprox 1910, but these two lines differ quite allot, especially in terms of level of DNA assimilation, but also because one was sedentary and the other was nomadic. Since my grandfathers line is more assimilated, I have to rely solely on segment sharing to detect Romani DNA segments, which shows up as mostly Middle eastern, Balkan/South East European. While my grandmothers side is more visible in terms of admixture, such as Ancestry Composition, and complimented with a good number of large Romani segments from all over the world.

Here is a typical Romani Segment of my grandmothers:
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp207/vulcanphoto/Untitledff.png
As can be seen it has multiple matches from Romania, but also Sweden and Greece, and another one from Russia that is not visible on my grandmothers CoA, but which overlaps with the same segment. The heavy consentration on Romania is not always the case, but it is common due to the large number of tested people from Romania coupled with the high number of Romani from there, but other countries that commonly show up for Romani related segments are: Bulgaria, Hungary, Turkey, Moldova, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia, India, Pakistan, Iran, Cyprus, UK etc...So there is a heavy concentration for the Balkans.

snow6565
07-16-2015, 03:15 PM
Absolutely agree with you evon.
But two of your relative have increased S-Asian (S-Indian) in their admixture. I think it's important; and I can not relate it to ANE.
I absolutely agree with what you wrote... "but other countries that commonly show up for Romani related segments are: Bulgaria, Hungary, Turkey, Moldova, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia..."
My father admitted to have Romany ancestry on his father side told by his father long time ago.

And this is his MDLP K=5:

1 67.6% MLD (Moldovian) + 32.4% BSN (Bosnian) @ 0.78
2 50.6% WUKR (West-Ukrainian) + 49.4% RUS (Russian) @ 0.86
3 86.4% MLD (Moldovian) + 13.6% SIC (Sicilian) @ 0.96
4 77.5% MLD (Moldovian) + 22.5% RMN (Romanian) @ 0.96
5 85.5% MLD (Moldovian) + 14.5% CITAL (Central-Italian) @ 1.05
6 82.3% MLD (Moldovian) + 17.7% KSV (Albanian) @ 1.12
7 93.5% UKR (Ukrainian) + 6.5% SWD (Swedish) @ 1.12
8 76.1% MLD (Moldovian) + 23.9% MNT (Montenegrin) @ 1.14
9 72.6% MLD (Moldovian) + 27.4% SRB (Serbian) @ 1.14
10 77% MLD (Moldovian) + 23% BLG (Bulgarian) @ 1.2
11 79.2% RUS (Russian) + 20.8% CRT (Croat) @ 1.21
12 70.6% ETN (Estonian) + 29.4% GGZ (Gagauz) @ 1.22
13 77.4% MLD (Moldovian) + 22.6% MCD (Macedonian) @ 1.23
14 95.1% UKR (Ukrainian) + 4.9% NRW (Norwegian) @ 1.24
15 73.7% CRUS (Central-Russian) + 26.3% BSN (Bosnian) @ 1.25
16 80.2% RUS (Russian) + 19.8% BSN (Bosnian) @ 1.28
18 82.2% CRUS (Central-Russian) + 17.8% RMN (Romanian) @ 1.3

But he is NOT from Moldova! :)

You know that Moldova=Romania; they even have the same flag and speak the same language; Moldova was the USSR part of Romania.

Again, this is his K13 admixture:

1 94.4% Estonian_Polish + 5.6% Pathan @ 1.99
2 94.4% Estonian_Polish + 5.6% Kalash @ 2.03
3 94.5% Estonian_Polish + 5.5% Burusho @ 2.03
4 93.8% Estonian_Polish + 6.2% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.05
5 95.2% Estonian_Polish + 4.8% Brahui @ 2.09
6 95.1% Estonian_Polish + 4.9% Balochi @ 2.09
7 93.3% Belorussian + 6.7% Burusho @ 2.11
8 95.1% Estonian_Polish + 4.9% Makrani @ 2.12
9 95.1% Estonian_Polish + 4.9% Sindhi @ 2.14
10 93.3% Belorussian + 6.7% Pathan @ 2.14
11 94.6% Estonian_Polish + 5.4% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.17
12 93.9% Estonian_Polish + 6.1% Afghan_Tadjik @ 2.24
13 88.2% Lithuanian + 11.8% Azeri @ 2.24
14 93.5% Estonian_Polish + 6.5% Tadjik @ 2.24
15 93.3% Belorussian + 6.7% Kalash @ 2.24
16 87.9% Lithuanian + 12.1% Turkish @ 2.27
17 88.9% Lithuanian + 11.1% Iranian @ 2.33
18 87.6% Lithuanian + 12.4% Turkmen @ 2.34
19 94.2% Belorussian + 5.8% Sindhi @ 2.35
20 89.6% Lithuanian + 10.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.36

evon
07-16-2015, 06:12 PM
Absolutely agree with you evon.
But two of your relative have increased S-Asian (S-Indian) in their admixture. I think it's important; and I can not relate it to ANE.
I absolutely agree with what you wrote... "but other countries that commonly show up for Romani related segments are: Bulgaria, Hungary, Turkey, Moldova, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Croatia..."
My father admitted to have Romany ancestry on his father side told by his father long time ago.

And this is his MDLP K=5:

1 67.6% MLD (Moldovian) + 32.4% BSN (Bosnian) @ 0.78
2 50.6% WUKR (West-Ukrainian) + 49.4% RUS (Russian) @ 0.86
3 86.4% MLD (Moldovian) + 13.6% SIC (Sicilian) @ 0.96
4 77.5% MLD (Moldovian) + 22.5% RMN (Romanian) @ 0.96
5 85.5% MLD (Moldovian) + 14.5% CITAL (Central-Italian) @ 1.05
6 82.3% MLD (Moldovian) + 17.7% KSV (Albanian) @ 1.12
7 93.5% UKR (Ukrainian) + 6.5% SWD (Swedish) @ 1.12
8 76.1% MLD (Moldovian) + 23.9% MNT (Montenegrin) @ 1.14
9 72.6% MLD (Moldovian) + 27.4% SRB (Serbian) @ 1.14
10 77% MLD (Moldovian) + 23% BLG (Bulgarian) @ 1.2
11 79.2% RUS (Russian) + 20.8% CRT (Croat) @ 1.21
12 70.6% ETN (Estonian) + 29.4% GGZ (Gagauz) @ 1.22
13 77.4% MLD (Moldovian) + 22.6% MCD (Macedonian) @ 1.23
14 95.1% UKR (Ukrainian) + 4.9% NRW (Norwegian) @ 1.24
15 73.7% CRUS (Central-Russian) + 26.3% BSN (Bosnian) @ 1.25
16 80.2% RUS (Russian) + 19.8% BSN (Bosnian) @ 1.28
18 82.2% CRUS (Central-Russian) + 17.8% RMN (Romanian) @ 1.3

But he is NOT from Moldova! :)

You know that Moldova=Romania; they even have the same flag and speak the same language; Moldova was the USSR part of Romania.

Again, this is his K13 admixture:

1 94.4% Estonian_Polish + 5.6% Pathan @ 1.99
2 94.4% Estonian_Polish + 5.6% Kalash @ 2.03
3 94.5% Estonian_Polish + 5.5% Burusho @ 2.03
4 93.8% Estonian_Polish + 6.2% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.05
5 95.2% Estonian_Polish + 4.8% Brahui @ 2.09
6 95.1% Estonian_Polish + 4.9% Balochi @ 2.09
7 93.3% Belorussian + 6.7% Burusho @ 2.11
8 95.1% Estonian_Polish + 4.9% Makrani @ 2.12
9 95.1% Estonian_Polish + 4.9% Sindhi @ 2.14
10 93.3% Belorussian + 6.7% Pathan @ 2.14
11 94.6% Estonian_Polish + 5.4% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.17
12 93.9% Estonian_Polish + 6.1% Afghan_Tadjik @ 2.24
13 88.2% Lithuanian + 11.8% Azeri @ 2.24
14 93.5% Estonian_Polish + 6.5% Tadjik @ 2.24
15 93.3% Belorussian + 6.7% Kalash @ 2.24
16 87.9% Lithuanian + 12.1% Turkish @ 2.27
17 88.9% Lithuanian + 11.1% Iranian @ 2.33
18 87.6% Lithuanian + 12.4% Turkmen @ 2.34
19 94.2% Belorussian + 5.8% Sindhi @ 2.35
20 89.6% Lithuanian + 10.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 2.36

I cant say anything about your fathers ancestry other than that I could not see any known Romani matches among his matches or matches with other known Romani whom I share with, so its just my opinion based on the tools available..But please do keep me updated if he does get new potential Romani related matches..