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Cofgene
07-13-2015, 10:13 AM
Iain's announcement into the U106 Yahoo discussion forum on a Big-Y result which became available last Friday. Additional work, including getting more royal relative wanna-be's tested will be occurring.


Dear all,

We are now in possession of the BigY results from our contact in the House of Wettin - the ancestral house of several European royal families, including the incumbent British House of Windsor. The results illuminate the early history of the House, and help uncover a previously unknown British branch of this ancient House. Below are some background details and results of the tests. This information has been put together for a variety of people with a variety of levels of expertise, both within and outwith the U106 group. Every detail may not be understandable by the lay person, but I will be happy to provide further explanation if necessary. Equally, there will be a lot of background that people will already be aware of.

DETAILS OF THE TESTERS

The BigY tester has asked us to keep his details private. He is a member of the Ernestine Wettin line. He is a 36/37 match to a second sample we have from a deceased member of the Belgian royal household. They share a common ancestor in Francis, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Saalfeld (1750-1806), the grandfather of both Queen Victoria and Prince Albert, and antecedent of all extant Ernestine Wettin lines. We do not have direct contact with him, but use Brad Michael Little as an intermediary.

HISTORY OF THE HOUSE

The confirmed history of the House extends back to 1098 AD, with the birth of Conrad the Great. Family tradition, supported by patchy historical records, traces it back further to circa 916 AD with the birth of Dietrich I. Due to its importance in European history, several historians have attempted to trace the line back further, though without consensus. Details of the early individuals can also be found in the U106 Yahoo forum, under the Files section, in the "DF98 Kings' Cluster" folder. For people who are not part of the Yahoo group, these are available on request, or publically on Wikipedia.

TEST RESULTS

The latest BigY test results show a good return, with almost 11M base pairs covered. Formally, the House of Wettin belongs to a clade defined by the following SNP mutations: U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z306 > Z304 > DF98 > S18823 > S22069 > S8350. There are a number of equivalent SNPs at several of these levels, especially the S8350 level, identifying a long gap between the formation of S22069 and S8350. The Wettin test itself has seven unique SNPs at Build 37 positions 14436099 (G->T), 17791025 (G->A), 19074816 (T->G), 19468450 (T->G), 21661818 (A->G), 23138525 (L1271) (G->A), and 24355845 (T->C). They form a unique lineage within the S8350 group.

CONTEXT IN THE S8350 GROUP

A large cluster of families forms a group at the S8350 level. Geographically, these are almost entirely English, Scots and Irish (mostly Ulster Scots) with one presumed Belgian. Four of these families have taken a BigY test which proves their location in this group: Butler, Curry, Wallace and Keys. Three groups are identifiable below S8350: the Wettin family itself, the Bulter family (with associated Fowler and Marsh families), and a Scottish group comprising of the Curry, Wallace, Keys and Holmes families.

A large number of other families form a tight STR cluster around them: Cox, Capell, Brown, Hunt, Kidder, Dean, Todd, van Welden, Templeton, Thompson, Hardin, Pitman, Pearson and Yates. Details of how these individuals relate to each other and the rest of DF98 can again be found in the Files section of the forum, under the "DF98 Kings' Cluster" folder (or are available on request).

ORIGIN OF THE S8350 GROUP

This cluster - including the House of Wettin - shares a common ancestor some time in the recent past. Defining an exact age is difficult, but the large amount of data we have for this group has made the task much easier. The method I use here combines an SNP dating method and an STR dating method. Individually, these provide ages within 110 years of each other. Their combination provides my best estimate for the birth of the group's common ancestor at 1134 AD, with a 95% confidence interval of 877 - 1379 AD. These dates are valid only if a series of assumptions is true, and they do not take some facts into account, but they should still be closely indicative of the true dates. Due to constraints placed by paper trails further down the tree, I suspect the true age lies in the earlier part of this range.

The predicted DNA-based dates have a substantial overlap with the historical paper trail of the Wettin family, such that there is (formally) a 95.2% chance that members of the S8350 cluster are descended from Dietrich I. Successfully finding the common ancestor of this group is therefore of some historical importance.

S22069 is a 3000-year-old German-dominated group, concentrated in the eastern Rhine valley between Cologne and Strasbourg. We have every reason to think that the ancestors of the House of Wettin ultimately came from this region before taking a (perhaps circuitous) route that led them the short distance to the Harz Mountains. My supposition is that a member of the House of Wettin came to southern England during or shortly after the Norman conquest, then was very successful in procreating and spreading their progeny, leading to a rapid diversification of the S8350 group. I suspect that one of his close descendents moved up to Scotland sometime a little afterwards, around the time of the Scottish wars of independence, at which point the 19087058 sub-clade was formed. This is so far still speculation, and yet to have any concrete evidential support.

PROGRESS FORWARD

It is very likely that the early ancestors within this group are well-recorded historical individuals. I will continue trying to make sense of the history of this British part of the House of Wettin, in order to uncover the ancestor of this branch and link them back to the House of Wettin. As part of this, I will be trying to reach out to the other families in this group that I have not yet been able to get in contact with. I will encourage them to test further so that we can understand how people within this cluster are related to each other. Ultimately, the aim will be to find someone with a long paper trail leading back to the individual we are looking for. This will take some time, effort, and money on several people's behalf. Contributions to the group fund for this project are always welcome!

Periodically, I will keep the U106 and DF98 groups updated as new information comes in. I will update those families who are directly involved more often.

Best wishes,

Iain.

curiousII
01-14-2018, 05:24 AM
No idea if anyone's still reading this thread, but I had a Family Finder match come in at R-Z306. I recognized his name, he's the son of one of my cousins on my mom's side.

We're at 425 cM, longest block 76 and that was such a hit Family Tree sent me an automated email about it when it came back. I know that side of the family has ancestry from both Ireland and Holland, if that's of any relevance to this thread.

I read that Z306 is part of the U106 Kings Cluster. I imagine my match is posting this on his own somewhere, so I'll stop but I thought that this ancestry (Ireland and the Netherlands) might be relevant here.

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 07:22 AM
Reading the first post makes me wonder if the shared ancestor of the House of Wettin and the British Isles matches may have been a few hundred years earlier than the start of the date range (877 AD), during the Saxon migration to England as the House of Wettin originated in Old Saxony before expanding towards the Harz Mountains. This migration started in the ~400s and continued until around 560/570 AD. And there was probably continued contact between Old Saxony and Saxon-England for a few more generations as they shared a common language and culture. Who, knows? Maybe there were marriages between the Anglo-Saxon royalty and the continental counterparts for an extended period.


The oldest known Wettin was from Liesgau, in the Duchy of Saxony
Theodoric I (c. 916 – c. 976), German Dietrich I, also known as Thierry I of Liesgau, is considered the oldest traceable member of the House of Wettin.


Significant numbers [of Saxons] settled in large parts of Great Britain in the early Middle Ages and formed part of the merged group of Anglo-Saxons who eventually organised the first united Kingdom of England.[1] Many Saxons however remained in Germania (Old Saxony c. 531–804),

Or possibly from these sources in Gaul



A Saxon unit of laeti settled at Bayeux – the Saxones Baiocassenses.[22] These Saxons became subjects of Clovis I late in the 5th century. The Saxons of Bayeux comprised a standing army and were often called upon to serve alongside the local levy of their region in Merovingian military campaigns. They were ineffective against the Breton Waroch in this capacity in 579.[23] In 589, the Saxons wore their hair in the Breton fashion at the orders of Fredegund and fought with them as allies against Guntram.[24] Beginning in 626, the Saxons of the Bessin were used by Dagobert I for his campaigns against the Basques. One of their own, Aeghyna, was created a dux over the region of Vasconia.[25]


or this source
...iin Normandy are numerous -thun villages in the north of France, in Boulonnais, for example Alincthun, Verlincthun, and Pelingthun.[27] showing with other toponyms, an important Saxon or Anglo-Saxon settlement. comparing the concentration of -ham/-hem (Anglo-Saxon hām > home) toponyms in the Bessin and in the Boulonnais gives more examples of Saxon settlement.[28] In the area known today as Normandy, the -ham cases of Bessin are unique – they do not exist elsewhere.



Around the city of Caen and in the Bessin (Vierville-sur-Mer, Bénouville, Giverville, Hérouvillette), excavations have yielded numerous examples of Anglo-Saxon jewellery, design elements, settings, and weapons. All of these things were discovered in cemeteries in a context of the 5th, 6th and 7th centuries AD

JohnHowellsTyrfro
01-14-2018, 08:19 AM
Reading the first post makes me wonder if the shared ancestor of the House of Wettin and the British Isles match may have been a few hundred years earlier than the start of the date range (877 AD), during the Saxon migration to England as the House of Wettin originated in Old Saxony before expanding towards the Harz Mountains. This migration started in the ~400s and continued until around 560/570 AD. And there was probably continued contact between Old Saxony and Saxon-England for a few more generations as they shared a common language and culture. Who, knows? Maybe there were marriages between the Anglo-Saxon royalty and the continental counterparts for an extended period.





Or possibly from these sources in Gaul

or this source

I was reading the first post too. Particular reference to distribution of this Y line in the Norman era. We might usually associate an "elite" Norman origin with Scandinavia not Germany, although of course not all "Normans" had that origin.
I think you are right we have to be cautious about assuming one-way migration particularly amongst "High Born" into Britain. Aelfthryth the daughter of Alfred the Great married Baldwin II of Flanders for example.

curiousII
01-14-2018, 10:42 AM
I was reading the first post too.
I read the first post, too! On that side of my family we're related to Bradford from the Mayflower, I'm in Family Tree's GSMD Project. Those people started off in England then on to Holland if I'm remembering my history correctly. That Z306 is in there somewhere.

curiousII
01-14-2018, 11:26 AM
I just checked the GSMD Project and there's only one Z306 in it, in the John Tilley group. I have some Tilleys show up in my FF, no idea if that means anything.

But that's from my mom's side of the family and their story to tell, if there is one at all. No idea where that Z306 came from, but I know that side of the family had a Dutch von Voelkker in it from the 17th Century and you hear that the Germans were quite stringent on who they handed a "von" out to. Maybe it was picked up after the Pilgrims got the boot from England or maybe even before that, but that's their story. I'm just DF27 that appears to have no aristocracy in it at all anywhere judging from this discussion: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13096-(R-P312-gt-DF27-gt-ZZ12-gt-FGC23083)-William-de-Duglis-Earl-of-Morton-Freskyn-de-Moravia

Cofgene
01-14-2018, 01:14 PM
An update to the DF98 region analysis is underway. Monitor Iain's page at http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html for new drafts.

MitchellSince1893
01-14-2018, 03:32 PM
I'm somewhat familiar with this line. For years (since 1976 when I was told) the House of Wettin line was of particular interest to me based on a family story passed down that turned out to be untrue after dna testing (I'm U152). Back in Spring 2012 I came across Brad Michael Little's efforts to get samples from living individuals from this line. Once he got the samples and made the STRs public, I finally had the chance to prove/disprove the story. Back then the FTDNA STRs results arrived in groups...1st 1-12 then the next, and so on. The first 12 came in and I had 2 or 3 differences, but by the the time I got to 37 markers I knew we were not of the same line. That launched my quest to find my father's mystery paternal great grandfather via dna testing...still looking.

While not genetically connected, one theory I have on the naming of my father's paternal grandfather "Edward Leopold Mitchell", is that he was named after two recently deceased House of Wettin Princes. Prince Leopold, Duke of Albany (Edward VII's brother) died in 1884, and Prince Albert Victor Christian Edward, Duke of Clarence and Avondale (Edward VII's son, known as Prince Eddy/Edward to the public) died in 1892.

After I had 67 marker results but before I had SNP results, I thought for sure I would be either U106 or L21 (due to my paternal line come from Britain). U152 never factored in to my thinking...why should it. It was a minor player in the Isles and the odds were against it.

Sorry for the tangent. Back to the true purpose of this thread.

Bollox79
01-17-2018, 06:00 AM
I think we need much more ancient (or medieval) DNA testing of the newer SNPs discovered by Big Y (in connection the S18823 Wettin side of DF98 and the S1911 side which I am a part of... also note we have a very good candidate for a Norman family via the Dutton and Warburton testers of that group via the Duttons and Warburtons of Cheshire etc - their SNPs appear to split off in the time period of the when that family was active in Cheshire - but Dr. Iain knows more about that)... we need those aDNA samples tested from continental in a KNOWN archaeological context i.e. Saxon, or Frankish, or what-have-you ;-). That's my opinion at least - as far as getting some of the down stream SNPs of DF98 and S18823/S1911 found in the archaeological record... though S1911 and downstream SNPs HAVE been found in a Roman context circa 1800 years ago in the York gladiator 6drif-3 - see my sig ;-)!

Cheers,
Charlie

Finn
07-02-2018, 04:51 PM
Reading the first post makes me wonder if the shared ancestor of the House of Wettin and the British Isles matches may have been a few hundred years earlier than the start of the date range (877 AD), during the Saxon migration to England as the House of Wettin originated in Old Saxony before expanding towards the Harz Mountains. This migration started in the ~400s and continued until around 560/570 AD. And there was probably continued contact between Old Saxony and Saxon-England for a few more generations as they shared a common language and culture. Who, knows? Maybe there were marriages between the Anglo-Saxon royalty and the continental counterparts for an extended period.





Or possibly from these sources in Gaul

or this source

Looks a bit too far fetched to me, the Wettins are form the tenth century long after the migration, and were from the Harz Mountains (the German wikipedia mentions the possibility of Sorb heritage). Any how the relationship with the Saxons of the migration time is thin or not there....

The Saxons of the migration time were sea raiders from the coast.....not from the Harz.

Finn
07-02-2018, 05:05 PM
In general sense Maciamo from Eupedia has got a point here:


R1b-U106 (S21) reaches its maximum frequency in Frisia (42%) and the central Netherlands (35%), then decreases progressively in the southern Netherlands (30%), Flanders (25%) and Wallonia (22%), to increase again in Luxembourg (32%). Not all subclades of U106 may be of Germanic origin. R1b-U106 originated nearly 5,000 years ago and settled in and around Germany around 2500 BCE, when Proto-Celto-Germanic people arrived from the Pontic Steppe via Southeast Europe. The term Germanic refers to the culture that arose in Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age (1700-500 BCE) and the subsequent Germanic Iron Age. Some subclades appear to have expanded from Scandinavia and North Germany during that time frame. These include L48, the largest branch of U106, and Z18, another major branch. These also happen to be the two dominant subclades in the Benelux. Within L48, Scandinavians belong almost exclusively to the Z9 branch, while the L47 branch appears to be found mostly in the Benelux and Britain. The other major branch, Z156 is subdivided in DF96 and DF98. DF98 is also found in Scandinavia and could be considered Germanic. However the vast majority of Z156 in Flanders is DF96, a subclade that is very rare in Scandinavia. DF96 might be more Proto-Celto-Germanic and would have dispersed around Germany and the Benelux without passing by Scandinavia. The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age inhabitants of the Netherlands and the northern half of Germany would therefore have belonged to those Proto-Celto-Germanic subclades of U106, such as DF96 (and many minor subclades, see R1b-U106 phylogeny).

The pretty recent finding of the R1b U106 Oostwoud sample West-Frisia 1800 BC underlines this!

I even think Maciamo got it wrong when he states that DF98 is unisono Germanic, it's too old for that (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF98/), the initial spread is pre-Germanic (although it continued in Germanic times!)

Bollox79
07-03-2018, 02:00 AM
In general sense Maciamo from Eupedia has got a point here:



The pretty recent finding of the R1b U106 Oostwoud sample West-Frisia 1800 BC underlines this!

I even think Maciamo got it wrong when he states that DF98 is unisono Germanic, it's too old for that (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-DF98/), the initial spread is pre-Germanic (although it continued in Germanic times!)

Finn,

Check out this DF98 King's Cluster pdf that Dr. Iain McDonald maintains (though he has taken it down for a bit with the new laws in the EU - but I think it will be ok since we are all willing participants etc)... I think it is much better for dating and seeing the branching of DF98 and it's major sub groups of S1911 and S18823 (Wettin's side of DF98). I'll send it to you in a PM after I write this message.

I think we are both right - in that U106 (and DF98 and it's brother group DF96) have perhaps a Bronze Age story before we took off with the Germanic Migrations. We can look at DF98 - we have a sample from early Unetice for the S1911 group at Jinonice - he was a mature adult male and wealthy burial. I bet his descendants moved West with the rest of Unetice bronze age movement and settled in Northern Germany and other places in NW Europe (post BB), but we really need more samples tested to at least DF98 and hopefully below to confirm that in those areas.

DF98 we already knew that it was associated with the elite Germanic kinship group per the House of Wettin being in that SNP group. They trace back (even commented on by a close contemporary of the first generation of Wettins - Thietmar of Merseburg) to the elite kinship group of the East Saxon magnate families - they were already established in that group - and not social climbers etc. The S1911 side of DF98 - well have a look at the PDF and see how that breaks down - a bit more common in the Isles, but also found continent side with an origin somewhere in NW Europe most likely?

DF96 I figured was more Southern based - and I suppose it may still be - but now we have Mr. ALH 1 from Altheim - a late Roman/early migration Baiuvarii burial 480-510 AD and he is DF96 and a few more SNPs under that... also another Z305 (right above DF96 in the tree) at Alternerding in the same area around Munich. So that confirms at least that bit of DF96 being among the founding members of the 1st phase burials around Munich - that is why I purchased and have read the book about the evidence connecting both the Baiuvarii and Thuringi to the Elbe Germanic cultures (especially via pottery found along the Elbe - in Bohemia and then around Roman forts near Munich and then it moved away from the forts and into the settlements aka Alternerding, Altheim and the like). There seems to be a connection between the Baiuvarii (who are DF96 and Z305 for now) and Thuringia (home of the Wettins who are DF98). We need many more samples and better testing in both places and throughout NW Europe really - but I think we are starting to see the beginning of the picture of at least the Z304 and under that DF96/DF98 group ;-).

Placing tribal names to these groups is hard as I don't think they saw themselves as different groups - I'm pretty sure they all came from the same "source" population especially on the Y-line... that is the thing with the early Baiuvarii - they were a mixture of different "tribes" and burial traditions - which became more unified under the Frankish and Byzantine influence...

Cheers,
Charlie

BYLM
04-02-2019, 09:46 AM
Same origin for Houses of Wettin and Bourbon ? :

QUOTE
"Prince Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma is a highly representative living descendant of the royal French family of Bourbons. We establish here his complete (based on fifty-eight different Y-STR markers and sixty-seven corresponding allele values) Y-STRs profile.
We also show in the present study that the main successive SNP markers of his Y-chromosome are, in order: M269 (haplotype XVI) > U106 > Z381 > Z156 > (Z306, Z305 and Z304) and > DF98. This last SNP marker confers to S-HB-P the status of being presently of the R1b1a1a2a1a1c1a1haplogroup.
Being R-DF98, S-HB-P belongs to the King Cluster, becoming to the House of Wettin. The house of Wettin belongs to a clade defined by the following Y-SNP mutations: U106 > Z381 > Z156 > Z306 > Z304 > DF98, and other mutations downstream.
This Y-DNA lineage comes from Prince Albert of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha (1819-1861), who was the husband of Queen Victoria (1819-1901). The paternal Winsor DNA line continues back to Franz Josias (Germany, 1697-1764), John (Elector of Saxonomy, 1468-1532) and further to Dietrich I of Wettin (Germany,
916-976).
UNQUOTE

Source: https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2019013117102906.pdf

Wing Genealogist
04-02-2019, 03:48 PM
The U106 Haplogroup Project at FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about/background) has the Big Y results from a descendant of the House of Wettin. This House of Bourbon paper stated they are in the process of testing their Bourbon DNA using the Big Y as well. This would be a huge help in looking at where these two Royal Houses divided.

Pylsteen
04-02-2019, 04:33 PM
So both Capetians and Wettin are DF98? In the paper I see a date for DF98 at 1500 BC, so they do not necessarily have to be from the same recent branch. But if they both descend from someone say ca. 500 AD then we might call this a very successful dynasty.

Wing Genealogist
04-02-2019, 05:52 PM
So both Capetians and Wettin are DF98? In the paper I see a date for DF98 at 1500 BC, so they do not necessarily have to be from the same recent branch. But if they both descend from someone say ca. 500 AD then we might call this a very successful dynasty.

Given the STR differences between the Capetian and Wettin samples (GD of 14 at 67 STRs), the two families are certainly NOT closely related. However, IMHO knowing at what clade level they actually did separate (even if it is at the DF98 level) is valuable information. The paper stated they had ordered the Big Y, so hopefully we will be able to see where they split off in the "near" future.

Bollox79
04-03-2019, 04:02 AM
I had a feeling they might turn out to be DF98+... wonder what sub group!

Piquerobi
04-03-2019, 12:50 PM
S22069 is a 3000-year-old German-dominated group, concentrated in the eastern Rhine valley between Cologne and Strasbourg. We have every reason to think that the ancestors of the House of Wettin ultimately came from this region before taking a (perhaps circuitous) route that led them the short distance to the Harz Mountains.

Given the location above and the association to the lineage of the Capetians, and also considering it really seems to be a Germanic clade, I'd guess its origins could possibly be traced to the Germanic tribe of the Franks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

Trelvern
05-05-2019, 04:40 PM
Quick results summary:
R1b-U106 Superclade Panel processing
L48 G-
Z381 T+
DF98 C+
............

Is there anybody to explain these results?

I understand i am not L48
i am Z381>DF98...
What is the meaning of T,C?(alleles if i understand correctly but what is the signification of the letters?)

Wing Genealogist
05-05-2019, 06:16 PM
...What is the meaning of T,C?(alleles if i understand correctly but what is the signification of the letters?)

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleobase

Wing Genealogist
05-05-2019, 06:30 PM
Same origin for Houses of Wettin and Bourbon ? : ...
Source: https://file.scirp.org/pdf/AA_2019013117102906.pdf

The author of this paper (Gérard Lucotte) has a checkered reputation. Someone has written an unflattering article about him in the French Wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Lucotte

The U106 Haplogroup Project at FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about/background) has attempted to contact him without any reply to date.

Given the author's notoriety, the U106 Project does not accept the results of this paper without independent verification. Since it is reported where a FTDNA Big Y test was in the works for the Bourbon individual, the project hopes to would be able to access the FTDNA results at some point in the future.

Bollox79
05-05-2019, 11:21 PM
The author of this paper (Gérard Lucotte) has a checkered reputation. Someone has written an unflattering article about him in the French Wikipedia https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Lucotte

The U106 Haplogroup Project at FTDNA (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/u106/about/background) has attempted to contact him without any reply to date.

Given the author's notoriety, the U106 Project does not accept the results of this paper without independent verification. Since it is reported where a FTDNA Big Y test was in the works for the Bourbon individual, the project hopes to would be able to access the FTDNA results at some point in the future.

ahh wasn't aware of the reputation being in question - yes it would be nice to have the Big Y results to prove it etc...

Trelvern
05-09-2019, 05:27 AM
Hello

i have be tested positive for S1911
i read it is the haplogroup of drif3 and could be related with Odard (Dutton) ,a Cotentin knight
My paper trail is entirely breton
Can you tell me more about S1911?

Wing Genealogist
05-09-2019, 09:37 AM
Hello

i have be tested positive for S1911
i read it is the haplogroup of drif3 and could be related with Odard (Dutton) ,a Cotentin knight
My paper trail is entirely breton
Can you tell me more about S1911?

The leading expert regarding DF98 and its subclades (including S1911) is Dr Iain McDonald. While he occasionally visits this forum, he is much more active in the U106 Yahoogroup forum. If you have not already joined this forum, you can join by sending an email to: [email protected] and briefly state why you would like to join.

Trelvern
05-09-2019, 09:52 AM
The leading expert regarding DF98 and its subclades (including S1911) is Dr Iain McDonald. While he occasionally visits this forum, he is much more active in the U106 Yahoogroup forum. If you have not already joined this forum, you can join by sending an email to: [email protected] and briefly state why you would like to join.


Yes
I have already registered (this very morning!)
thanks for the information

Scat
05-10-2019, 08:38 PM
What about new Hungarian branch into DF98. S18823 * is it Huns or period of Avar khanate, or time of Magyar invasion

Bollox79
05-11-2019, 01:33 AM
What about new Hungarian branch into DF98. S18823 * is it Huns or period of Avar khanate, or time of Magyar invasion

What surname and MDKA is it for the S18823 Hungarian Branch? I have been trying to log into U106 DNA project list at FTDNA but it always times out... and doesn't take me to the DF98 section of the project... getting quite annoying!

-Charlie

Edit and is it a sub group under S18823? That SNP is still pretty old etc...

Bollox79
05-11-2019, 01:52 AM
Yes
I have already registered (this very morning!)
thanks for the information

Hello it's Charlie from the U106 forum... great to have a Breton in our midsts in S1911 - here is a video for you - you should recognize the song if it plays it's Son ar rost I think... played on the Irish pipes - on my father's side I have some Scots-Irish and Scots from Pennsylvania, but on my mother's side I have confirmed via DNA matches from my kit and my Uncles (and soon my mother's) our direct descent from some very famous native nobility Gaelic Irish and Scots Highlander families who were all Jacobite... so naturally I listen to A LOT of Irish and Scots traditional music ;-). Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9j9YbKzZBw

Scat
05-11-2019, 12:58 PM
No, it is an absolutely new branch in future, now we have only 1 person from Hungary SZ with S18823*. And I think maybe it will be several men in future. And I suspect that I will be in this new branch or somewhere near
I suspect that there is a new east direction in the DF98. A branch from Hungary goes further to Moldova, Ukraine and further to Central Asia - Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S18823*/

Bollox79
05-12-2019, 03:54 AM
No, it is an absolutely new branch in future, now we have only 1 person from Hungary SZ with S18823*. And I think maybe it will be several men in future. And I suspect that I will be in this new branch or somewhere near
I suspect that there is a new east direction in the DF98. A branch from Hungary goes further to Moldova, Ukraine and further to Central Asia - Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S18823*/

More data the better Scat and make sure to say hi for me and I welcome them to DF98 etc... ! Make sure you and everyone stop by and join the U106 yahoo forum where Dr. Iain McDonald our DF98 group leader hangs out and many of the others here if you haven't already: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R1b1c_U106-S21/info

Cheers,
Charlie

Scat
05-19-2019, 04:21 PM
Bollox79, you can already say me "welcome to DF98"

Bollox79
05-20-2019, 10:59 PM
Bollox79, you can already say me "welcome to DF98"

Scat,

Sounds good! Make sure you get into touch with Dr. Iain McDonald if you haven't already for all the DF98ers out your way! His site is here: http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics.html

Scat
06-06-2019, 10:12 PM
Perhaps I found a Hungarian with whom I could form a new branch. On the eupedia forum. Our subclade S22069 and there should appear in the future a new "eastern" branch.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35435-Dna-of-King-Bela-III-of-Hungary/page2

Scat
04-11-2020, 04:28 PM
Is there anyone on the forum with subclade S23139 except me? I am looking for anyone with subclade S23139, preferably with FT22607 so that the second result with this subclade is loaded on YFull

Natterjack
08-01-2020, 06:35 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to the whole world of DNA so apologies in advance if this post is inappropriate or stupid.

I recently had a test with livingDNA that revealed I am a member of the DF98 fraternity. My cursory research tells me that it's possible to look at even more recent SNPs that might give some kind of clue as to the movements of one's ancestors more recently than the point of origin of DF98. In downloaded the raw data file from livingDNA and it contains nearly 400 items that I assume are SNPs that I tested positive for. The trouble is that I can't interpret any of it; I'm not sure which are 'downstream' of each other (the list is in alphabetical order) and I don't know how 'deep' the test was anyway.

If I post them here would anyone be able to tell me if there are any subclades* of DF98 present

Thanks in advance.

*I hope that's the right word.

JonikW
08-01-2020, 09:01 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to the whole world of DNA so apologies in advance if this post is inappropriate or stupid.

I recently had a test with livingDNA that revealed I am a member of the DF98 fraternity. My cursory research tells me that it's possible to look at even more recent SNPs that might give some kind of clue as to the movements of one's ancestors more recently than the point of origin of DF98. In downloaded the raw data file from livingDNA and it contains nearly 400 items that I assume are SNPs that I tested positive for. The trouble is that I can't interpret any of it; I'm not sure which are 'downstream' of each other (the list is in alphabetical order) and I don't know how 'deep' the test was anyway.

If I post them here would anyone be able to tell me if there are any subclades* of DF98 present

Thanks in advance.

*I hope that's the right word.

Welcome to the forum Natterjack. I have no Idea how rigorously Living DNA arrives at a terminal SNP in relation to total tested markers. But take a look at this thread (http://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?16340-Living-DNA-Y-haplogroup-Predictor) because it might help you.

Wing Genealogist
08-01-2020, 11:18 PM
Natterjack: Since DF98 falls under U106, I would suggest you join the R1b-U106 group at io.com by sending an email to: [email protected] Most of the U106 experts are active on this forum.

MacUalraig
08-04-2020, 07:53 AM
DF98 and sub-branches are covered by the U106 superclade panel cost USD99

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=18643

Frank&Frei
08-15-2020, 03:34 PM
Is there anyone on the forum with subclade S23139 except me? I am looking for anyone with subclade S23139, preferably with FT22607 so that the second result with this subclade is loaded on YFull

Yes Scat, i am from Bavaria in southern Germany, subclade FT22607. There are a few more, for example i have a very close relative from the Czech Republic. We both took the Big Y-700 test provided by FTDNA.

Recently i used the Y Heatmap which is a relative frequency map for Y Haplogroups (developed by Hunter Provyn and Thomas Krahn (yseq.net)) and entered R-DF98, to my very surprise one of the DF98 hotspots is located in Uzbekistan. After doing some research i was able to find you here on Anthrogenica.

Heartfelt greetings to you scat

Bollox79
08-22-2020, 10:24 PM
Yes Scat, i am from Bavaria in southern Germany, subclade FT22607. There are a few more, for example i have a very close relative from the Czech Republic. We both took the Big Y-700 test provided by FTDNA.

Recently i used the Y Heatmap which is a relative frequency map for Y Haplogroups (developed by Hunter Provyn and Thomas Krahn (yseq.net)) and entered R-DF98, to my very surprise one of the DF98 hotspots is located in Uzbekistan. After doing some research i was able to find you here on Anthrogenica.

Heartfelt greetings to you scat

Not too surprising ;-)... we need more samples over all from that part of the world! Technically considering Mr. Unetice buried at Jinonice is DF98+ and early Unetice - plenty of time to spread around - just need a lot more samples from East I think for full picture. Also where the hell was U106 before that lol.... maybe single grave?

Link to my list of ancient samples that are U106+ - don't have the Viking paper on yet they haven't released raw data etc... : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6ZFaJe9gUtwl2r2Iu33B5_kCc6er5n9oEthCe25wV0/edit?usp=sharing

Cheers,
Charlie "Cathal Dubh"

Scat
08-26-2020, 04:50 AM
Hello Frank&Frei.
Thank you for your heartfelt greeting. I'm glad to see you and others FT22607 here. I want to clarify the MRCA time of our subclade FT22607. For this you can upload your Raw data to yfull and / or compare your STRs with mine

Scat
08-27-2020, 01:18 AM
Not too surprising ;-)... we need more samples over all from that part of the world! Technically considering Mr. Unetice buried at Jinonice is DF98+ and early Unetice - plenty of time to spread around - just need a lot more samples from East I think for full picture. Also where the hell was U106 before that lol.... maybe single grave?

Link to my list of ancient samples that are U106+ - don't have the Viking paper on yet they haven't released raw data etc... : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6ZFaJe9gUtwl2r2Iu33B5_kCc6er5n9oEthCe25wV0/edit?usp=sharing

Cheers,
Charlie "Cathal Dubh"

He writes as if I were DF * or S18823 *. But I S23179> BY20662 and I think other results in the East should be no earlier than the subclade S22116. Most likely, you need to look for migrations not in old cultures before our era, but in the era of the Great Migration of Peoples (Goths, Huns, Gepids, Crimean Gotalans) or even a little later (Avar Kaganate, for example). This is an assumption, but the truth is still hidden

Frank&Frei
08-27-2020, 12:19 PM
Hi Scat,

after Alex Williamson's block tree (FTDNA) the snp BY20662 is in ascending order at position 31; so a rough age estimation would give us approximately 2600 years (31*83 years).

This result would indicate an emergence of said snp well before the Great Migration of Peoples.

Below BY20662 there are 3 branches, BY138043, BY62217 and BY97742, it is not unlikely that the solution to the question can be found in these branches.

Scat
08-27-2020, 12:37 PM
Hi Frank&Frei

I think history can go after SNPs, and SNPs never before history. And sync doesn't go to 0years here. That is, historical events occur after the appearance of SNPs by at least 100-300 years. And of course, it is very necessary to upload people with positive results on SNP BY20662 to the Yfull database. While my preliminary ideas about the age of BY 20662 are approximately as follows (by eye) from 1800 to 2600 and I think most likely 2200-2300 years. The Great Migration begins in the 2nd century (the exodus of the Goths to the southeast). 300-400 years after SNP is the norm for me. History and genetics are not completely synchronous !! History goes strictly after genetics for me.
PS I certainly know more, I know my terminal SNP, but I'm just not writting about it in open forum, so my confidence that we are talking about Time, even AFTER the Great Migration of Nations, is based on something else, but I do not want to disclose this info

Frank&Frei
08-27-2020, 07:10 PM
Hi Scat,

i tried to reply to your private message but i failed to submit it. The system reminded me that i do not have 10 posts yet and refused to send it.

Scat
09-02-2020, 07:34 AM
If you want, you may answer to my private message in this theme or post smth(and then post smth 3times and reply to me in private)

Frank&Frei
09-16-2020, 10:03 AM
Scat,

i have the desired information for you

Cheers

Frank&Frei
09-16-2020, 10:07 AM
Scat,

i have found the following remark: Note: Until your post count is 15 you will be able to send PMs to Staff only.

We should consider another way of communication.....

Frank&Frei
09-17-2020, 08:27 AM
Scat,

i recommend to contact Onur Dincer, he is a global moderator. Since i should be able to send a PM to Onur Dincer he then could forward it to you

Cheers