Ydna T2 - new creation

[vettor]

Y-DNA Haplogroup T and its Subclades - 2015

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• T2 PH110, PH196, PH478, PH526, PH550, PH768, PH933, PH1092, PH1106, PH1172, PH1268, PH1294, PH1343, PH1378, PH1434, PH1457, PH1546, PH1579, PH1583, PH1633, PH1691, PH1841, PH1867, PH1883, PH2017, PH2156, PH2279, PH2292, PH2328, PH2855, PH2861, PH2900, PH2933, PH2990, PH3010, PH3131, PH3150, PH3341, PH3399, PH3422, PH3474, PH3561, PH3721, PH3842, PH3862, PH3868, PH3922, PH3943, PH3996, PH4121, PH4216, PH4431, PH4591, PH4676, PH4746, PH4802, PH4834, PH4842, PH4892, PH4935, PH5136, PH5171, PH5181, PH5212, PH5256, PH5433

PH = Pille Hallast, Ph.D., University of Leicester, Department of Genetics, United Kingdom

seems to be a brand new branch ..........no idea where this will lead

[GarethH]

The listed SNPs have been seen in two separate individuals who were previously just T-M184* (i.e. M184+ M70-).
They are sample bhu-1892 (from Bhutan) in the Hallast et al paper and YFull sample YF03586 (which is also a kit in the T Project, from Armenia). As there is no known recent connection between these two samples the SNPs can be considered non-private. YFull estimates that T1 and T2 split around 26,900 years ago (compared with an age of 15,800 years ago for the three-way split of T-M70).

[vettor]

The listed SNPs have been seen in two separate individuals who were previously just T-M184* (i.e. M184+ M70-).
They are sample bhu-1892 (from Bhutan) in the Hallast et al paper and YFull sample YF03586 (which is also a kit in the T Project, from Armenia). As there is no known recent connection between these two samples the SNPs can be considered non-private. YFull estimates that T1 and T2 split around 26,900 years ago (compared with an age of 15,800 years ago for the three-way split of T-M70).

Thanks , is the 3 way split, the split of the branches with positive M70, that is ....L162 group, L131 group and lastly the L1255 group ?

[GarethH]

Thanks , is the 3 way split, the split of the branches with positive M70, that is ....L162 group, L131 group and lastly the L1255 group ?

T-M70 splits into T-L162, T-L131 and T-Y11151. Most of T-Y11151 is T-Y8614 and T-L1255 is one branch of T-Y8614.
See the "Delta" clusters on the T Project results pages, coloured red at the top.

[vettor]

T-M70 splits into T-L162, T-L131 and T-Y11151. Most of T-Y11151 is T-Y8614 and T-L1255 is one branch of T-Y8614.
See the "Delta" clusters on the T Project results pages, coloured red at the top.

I cannot see these "delta" in the T project pages, all I see is Alpha, Betta and Gamma

I do note, that apart from one Armenian all in the project who are DYS390=22 are Europeans only

[vettor]

to clarify ...my Opinion

LT haplogroup split and T formed somewhere around the Himalayas areas

T2 ( new branch ) seems to be the next oldest marker- it has no M70 subclade and is found in Armenia to northern Burma areas and lands in-between.

T1 - next oldest - has no M70 subclade

T1a - has M70 subclade and seems the youngest in age

[Saetro]

I cannot see these "delta" in the T project pages, all I see is Alpha, Betta and Gamma

I do note, that apart from one Armenian all in the project who are DYS390=22 are Europeans only

Delta are at top of page 1 today

[vettor]

looking at today's
http://www.yfull.com/tree/T/

I found that under my line , T-L131 all the suadi, iraq and kuwati all have a TMRCA of less than 1000ybp , why is this when L131 is 11000ybp ?. there is 10000 years missing
Are these dates from any yfull line accurate?

BTW my known marker sits under CTS8489 ( but i have not tested with yfull )

[Saetro]

If you look at a Haplogroup tree like the one at YFull - http://www.yfull.com/tree/T/ you will find two dates for each sub-haplogroup, a date formed and a date for TMRCA. The TMRCA is always lower - sometimes much lower.
I would also like to know what they mean.
But the date formed is usually a much more plausible date.
It often coincides with the date formed for the next branch down.
The date at the end of a twig is often questionable - perhaps because there are few people with that sub-haplogroup.
Is there a guru in the house?

[Saetro]

OK I think I may have some insight into the problem I posed yesterday.
Expanding the "see more" on YFull gave some explanations that I am still digesting.
The "date formed" comes from SNPs down from where the branch diverges.
TMRCA comes from the differences between those who have tested.
If not many people have tested, the TMRCA is likely to be low.
Small number of samples make it also likely to be a big difference between the "date formed" and the TMRCA.

One thing about the SNP dating is that the rate constant comes from a recent paper by Adamov et al (2015) that can be found by a link from the front page of YFull (down the bottom).
They use a rather limited number of examples to derive the rate constant.
Their approach relies partly on checks with an also limited number of ancient DNA samples.
None of these are in the LT branch.
While it is probably a reasonable assumption that the LT branch behaves the same, it is an assumption.

This is certainly a useful contribution and YFull had to start somewhere, but I would expect to see some refinement at a later date.

[vettor]

OK I think I may have some insight into the problem I posed yesterday.
Expanding the "see more" on YFull gave some explanations that I am still digesting.
The "date formed" comes from SNPs down from where the branch diverges.
TMRCA comes from the differences between those who have tested.
If not many people have tested, the TMRCA is likely to be low.
Small number of samples make it also likely to be a big difference between the "date formed" and the TMRCA.

One thing about the SNP dating is that the rate constant comes from a recent paper by Adamov et al (2015) that can be found by a link from the front page of YFull (down the bottom).
They use a rather limited number of examples to derive the rate constant.
Their approach relies partly on checks with an also limited number of ancient DNA samples.
None of these are in the LT branch.
While it is probably a reasonable assumption that the LT branch behaves the same, it is an assumption.

This is certainly a useful contribution and YFull had to start somewhere, but I would expect to see some refinement at a later date.

My thoughts are that the T1 branches split-off around kurdish lands, with L131 heading into the caucasus and northern anatolia and then into Europe representing what the project team state as the "northern branch". The L162 "southern branch" is the main line that entered southern anatolia and the levant ( with SNP, pages 21 as the main marker ) , this branch entered Egypt but did not travel into sudan, it went west towards morocco.

The third marker is the south-persian/arabian peninsula group which is stated by papers as " the Egyptian and Turkish haplotypes are considerably older in age (13,700 ybp and 9,000 ybp, respectively) than those found in Oman (only 1,600 ybp)", this young age for the Oman theory matches all samples of suadis and kuwaits in Yfull for an age time of only 1000years. This 3rd branch is stated as T1a3 (L1255) Found in Kuwait. although the T project team designate it under a different SNP. These Oman/arabian samples seem to be the ones that entered somalia and east-african via the arabian peninsula

[vettor]

The listed SNPs have been seen in two separate individuals who were previously just T-M184* (i.e. M184+ M70-).
They are sample bhu-1892 (from Bhutan) in the Hallast et al paper and YFull sample YF03586 (which is also a kit in the T Project, from Armenia). As there is no known recent connection between these two samples the SNPs can be considered non-private. YFull estimates that T1 and T2 split around 26,900 years ago (compared with an age of 15,800 years ago for the three-way split of T-M70).

T2-PH110 split directly from T-M184 around the time ~30000ybp in the eastern Himalayas and Kura-Arak basin ....................a sample was also found in southern germany, I do not know what to make of this though

[GarethH]

T2-PH110 split directly from T-M184 around the time ~30000ybp in the eastern Himalayas and Kura-Arak basin ....................a sample was also found in southern germany, I do not know what to make of this though

Well, the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2). So we will never know how many branches of T came into existence and then died out in those 10000 years, or how far they spread.

[vettor]

I have thought of the origin of T in North East Iran for many years.

It fits with an old 2010 theory that TL formed in North India

[GarethH]

I have thought of the origin of T in North East Iran for many years.

It fits with an old 2010 theory that TL formed in North India

Whose old theory was that? How can anyone theorise about the birthplace of a single individual who lived more than 40,000 years ago from the distribution of his descendants in the 21st century?

[vettor]

It was from geneticatlas.
They state 30000kya from sind valley.

Are they correct. Who knows?

http://thegeneticatlas.com/

[vettor]

Well, the most recent common ancestor of T1 and T2 was a single individual and he might have lived in Azerbaijan, or Bhutan, or somewhere in between, or somewhere a bit further south or west, but I doubt if he or his sons and grandsons travelled very far from the region where they were born. As far as we can tell, after 10000 years only 3 of their descendant lines had survived (two from T1 and one from T2). So we will never know how many branches of T came into existence and then died out in those 10000 years, or how far they spread.

I came to my conclusion that they originate from proto-bactrians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactria#Bactrian_people

or even

proto-Sogdians

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdia



as you say......it is too far back to be definite

[Arame]

A T2 is found in Georgia also.

[AndresT]

A T2 is found in Georgia also.

This individual is from the Flemish Congo probably of Flemish descent and actually living in Georgia.

[vettor]

This individual is from the Flemish Congo probably of Flemish descent and actually living in Georgia.

He might be associated with the Belgium from year 1617 who has SNP Z19945 , but ancestors before moving to Belgium originated from Lorraine and Alsace in France

[AndresT]

This individual is from the Flemish Congo probably of Flemish descent and actually living in Georgia.

According the information added in wikipedia: "During the existence of the Congo Free State and the early years of the Belgian Congo, the majority of White Congolese were Scandinavian."

However his direct paternal lineage is from Kinshasa which was settled mostly by Flemish people.

[vettor]

A T2 is found in Georgia also.

and also yfull has a sample that moved from armenia to cilicia-Anatolia pre Roman occupation of Anatolia ........

So all we have is Bhutan, Germany , Armenia and Georgia for this very very old marker

[alchemist223]

Fascinatingly, a new T2 sample has been uploaded to YFull, creating a new subclade of T-PH196 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-PH196/) in addition to the Armenian sample. The sample appears to be of a Muslim Arab from Diyala Province of Iraq. Considering that the Armenian T2 sample appears to come from Gaziantep (formerly Aintab) in southern Turkey and the TMRCA of T-PH196 occurred approximately 8000 ybp, T-PH196 could have plausibly originated in Neolithic Mesopotamia. And considering that this is by far the most basal clade of Haplogroup T (the next most basal clade, T-M4538 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-M4538/) having an extremely recent TMRCA in a Lebanese family after splitting 18,400 ybp), the entire haplogroup may have well formed in Anatolia or Mesopotamia, and arrived in the Levant in the Neolithic period. But we need more ancient and modern samples of T to be sure.

[davit]

Fascinatingly, a new T2 sample has been uploaded to YFull, creating a new subclade of T-PH196 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-PH196/) in addition to the Armenian sample. The sample appears to be of a Muslim Arab from Diyala Province of Iraq. Considering that the Armenian T2 sample appears to come from Gaziantep (formerly Aintab) in southern Turkey and the TMRCA of T-PH196 occurred approximately 8000 ybp, T-PH196 could have plausibly originated in Neolithic Mesopotamia. And considering that this is by far the most basal clade of Haplogroup T (the next most basal clade, T-M4538 (https://yfull.com/tree/T-M4538/) having an extremely recent TMRCA in a Lebanese family after splitting 18,400 ybp), the entire haplogroup may have well formed in Anatolia or Mesopotamia, and arrived in the Levant in the Neolithic period. But we need more ancient and modern samples of T to be sure.

Interesting. What do you think about the origin of LT? I thought it was an East Eurasian not Anatolian line.

[alchemist223]

I am not sure. After forming about 45,000 years ago, LT has a TMRCA of 42,600 years ago, with both L and T being predominantly West Eurasian. I suspect LT may have migrated to the west before splitting (considering that K2a and K2b are solidly represented in East Eurasia), but the two haplogroups may have split in Eastern Eurasia, or possibly a west-to-east migration occurred instead. Both L and T have significant bottlenecks, with their TMRCAs being over 15,000 years after their formation. We need far more Paleolithic DNA samples to know what exactly happened.

[davit]

I am not sure. After forming about 45,000 years ago, LT has a TMRCA of 42,600 years ago, with both L and T being predominantly West Eurasian. I suspect LT may have migrated to the west before splitting (considering that K2a and K2b are solidly represented in East Eurasia), but the two haplogroups may have split in Eastern Eurasia, or possibly a west-to-east migration occurred instead. Both L and T have significant bottlenecks, with their TMRCAs being over 15,000 years after their formation. We need far more Paleolithic DNA samples to know what exactly happened.

True. But I also wouldn't have guessed K2a would ever be found in Europe so I guess anything is on the table.

[vettor]

Interesting. What do you think about the origin of LT? I thought it was an East Eurasian not Anatolian line.

LT belongs to the K-M9 haplogroup along with its other "brothers" in haplogroups of N, O, P ( R1a, R1b, R2 ), M and S

There are 3 scenarios of its origin ...............
1......the Oxus river area , just south of the Aral sea and runs into the Caspian sea.

2......western Himalayas mountains bordering around Afghanistan and India area

3.......Area of the start of the Indus river


The T2- PH group have currently 4 samples that I recall .......Armenia, Bhutan, Georgia and Germany


and
A 2014 study found T-PH110 in one ethnic Bhutanese male,

some have said the T2 (ydna ) origin is via these people
The Altaians (also Altayans) are a Turkic people living in the Siberian Altai Republic and Altai Krai, Russia. A few Altaians also live in Mongolia and northern Xinjiang, China but are not officially recognized as a distinct group.[2] For alternative ethnonyms see also Teleut, Tele, Telengit, Black Tatar and Oirats.


The Bhutan and German samples are very close

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4327154/