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View Full Version : R1b Bell Beakers, Autosomal and Maternal DNA



R.Rocca
07-16-2015, 08:26 PM
I was able to map most of the RISE Bell Beaker samples to the Price 2004 stronium isotope study. Below is the table I built that also includes David's comments on how the samples look autosomally. Nothing stood out when comparing Price's migrant/local/male/female/Old BB/Young BB model with any of David's findings. One thing of interest is that 4 of the 5 mtDNA haplogroup H samples look more "Western European" and the two U5 samples look more northern/eastern. Perhaps David can run the rest of the BB samples through his K9 model and give us more insight.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/RISE_Price_Migrant_Local_Compare.png

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/RISE_Price_Migrant_Local_Compare.png

rms2
07-16-2015, 11:16 PM
I think that Vučedol R1b from Szécsényi-Nagy (http://ubm.opus.hbz-nrw.de/volltexte/2015/4075/pdf/doc.pdf) is an indicator that the P312 in Beaker did not come from Iberia. If whatever early Beaker was actually began in Iberia, then it began minus R1b.

Chad Rohlfsen
07-17-2015, 01:29 AM
I was able to map most of the RISE Bell Beaker samples to the Price 2004 stronium isotope study. Below is the table I built that also includes David's comments on how the samples look autosomally. Nothing stood out when comparing Price's migrant/local/male/female/Old BB/Young BB model with any of David's findings. One thing of interest is that 4 of the 5 mtDNA haplogroup H samples look more "Western European" and the two U5 samples look more northern/eastern. Perhaps David can run the rest of the BB samples through his K9 model and give us more insight.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/RISE_Price_Migrant_Local_Compare.png

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/RISE_Price_Migrant_Local_Compare.png

Do the isotope studies tell a travel direction?

R.Rocca
07-17-2015, 02:09 AM
Do the isotope studies tell a travel direction?

Grupe 1997, the original study that collected the Bavarian samples, said this...


The overall direction of migration for the Bell Beaker people, based on the Sr isotope data is from NE to SW.

R.Rocca
07-17-2015, 02:16 AM
...and then they expanded their study in 2004 to include Czech, Hungarian and Austrian samples and had this to say...


While it is possible to identify migrants, it is difficult to determine the specific
homeland of these individuals because of the complex geology of south-central
Europe and our lack of knowledge about surficial deposits at the site locations and
how they are reflected in local biologically available strontium isotope. At present
it is not possible to provide more detail with regard to place of origin. Within
south-central Europe there are multiple localities where any given strontium
isotope ratio might occur.

nuadha
07-17-2015, 02:19 AM
Do the isotope studies tell a travel direction?

yes, both this study and a tooth study claimed that their was a migration of eastern bell beakers towards the west. Its obvious now that this migration carried r1b with it.

I can't remember exactly but I thought there was another isotopic study which also supported a migration of bell beakers from east to west.

Chad Rohlfsen
07-17-2015, 02:28 AM
Okay, I read it and it said that the Danube from Bavaria to Hungary is almost identical and hard to tell the direction of flow. Some do stand out, and I do remember the other study on the movement from NE to SW, which probably means the Czech Republic.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/235665406_Strontium_Isotopes_and_Prehistoric_Human _Migration_The_Bell_Beaker_Period_in_Central_Europ e

nuadha
07-17-2015, 02:38 AM
Nothing stood out when comparing Price's migrant/local/male/female/Old BB/Young BB model with any of David's findings. One thing of interest is that 4 of the 5 mtDNA haplogroup H samples look more "Western European" and the two U5 samples look more northern/eastern.

The only thing I note (because I was looking for it) is that we have more examples of low EHG guys from Germany than the Czech republic. But the numbers are low and it really can't say much. I would like to see a large number of early bell beakers from DE, CZ, and HU and compare their levels of EHG. Since the yamnaya had a direct input into hungary and possible CZ if you look at David Anthony's 3b course I would expect early HU to have the most EHG.

But of course its more complicated than this. Germany could have a few small groups of BB very high in EHG that raced through the country even though the avg BB in germany wasn't that high in EHG. Also, CZ could have gotten some of its EHG from CW (that doesn't mean CW was the main source just a minor one).

nuadha
07-17-2015, 02:46 AM
Okay, I read it and it said that the Danube from Bavaria to Hungary is almost identical and hard to tell the direction of flow. Some do stand out, and I do remember the other study on the movement from NE to SW, which probably means the Czech Republic.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/235665406_Strontium_Isotopes_and_Prehistoric_Human _Migration_The_Bell_Beaker_Period_in_Central_Europ e

I thought that was the same study. They basically said that the "local" signatures could very well have come from downstream danube, but they wouldn't be able to tell. The could recognize the movement of beakers from northeast of the bavarian danube, around the CZ mountains, to southwest of the bavarian danube due to the different minerals different soils. They found a pretty high percentage of migrants from the northeast.

The impression I had is that there wasn't evidence of migration from the west in those samples, but I don't know how well they would be able to detect migrations from the west.

Generalissimo
07-17-2015, 03:14 AM
There's a K10 here with all of these Rise BB samples and something resembling a steppe component.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tOLfXKYGJFB17OaS1G8lont8MkX2tDA1zKi1R6EzUs4/edit?usp=sharing

R.Rocca
07-17-2015, 09:57 AM
When looking at both the Haak and Allentoft Bell Beaker samples in your K10 spreadsheet, it looks like the Czech samples have more steppe ancestry than the German samples. Also, the two oldest German samples from north-central Germany (I0108 & I0111) look more British than Eastern European. Both have mtDNA H.

Radboud
07-17-2015, 12:13 PM
There's a K10 here with all of these Rise BB samples and something resembling a steppe component.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tOLfXKYGJFB17OaS1G8lont8MkX2tDA1zKi1R6EzUs4/edit?usp=sharing

Will this test be available for Gedmatch or Dodecad?

alan
07-17-2015, 02:10 PM
There's a K10 here with all of these Rise BB samples and something resembling a steppe component.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tOLfXKYGJFB17OaS1G8lont8MkX2tDA1zKi1R6EzUs4/edit?usp=sharing

my poor eyes. I much prefer cluster diagrams at a Mr Magoo friendly scale

alan
07-17-2015, 02:32 PM
When looking at both the Haak and Allentoft Bell Beaker samples in your K10 spreadsheet, it looks like the Czech samples have more steppe ancestry than the German samples. Also, the two oldest German samples from north-central Germany (I0108 & I0111) look more British than Eastern European. Both have mtDNA H.

Its going to be very hard to infer the details because out-marriage even once can change the autosomal DNA considerably. There are so many possible permutations. As far as I can tell the beaker east group (i.e. the central European group) just suddenly was everywhere in the beaker part of central Europe c. 2500BC. We now know of course they were linked to R1b, almost certainly overwhelmingly P312 - and I would further guess that U152, found already in this section of beaker culture - was the dominant clade of this massive expansion. I dont know a lot about the U152 tree but an enormous sudden branching about 2500BC and the century after should be obvious if it is to match the archaeological record of the beaker east group.

Similarly in the isles DF13 should have a mega expansion around the same time or perhaps a generation after the beaker east group. As far as I can make out the beakers in the Rhine and the isles have a mix of east and west beaker aspects and are a bit harder to pin down and understand than the east and west continental groups. I have no doubt L21 crossed the channel to the isles from opposite coasts closest but I havent got a clue about its story before it got to the continental channel/lower Rhine position.

Beaker individuals with mega mobility and a propensity to marry out will always be archaeologically confusing - there has got to have been a bit of a Magpie quality in that sort of lifestyle, at least in the mobile pioneering lineages. All those pottery influences on beaker and especialy in companion ware -including polypod pots, corded influences seen in isles beaker etc - must relate to this magpie like quality and, pottery being a largely female craft, probably speaks of a complex network of out-marriages with woman of neighbouring cultures. Thank goodness for ancient DNA because I dont think archaeology could on its own ever fully resolve the migrations involved in beaker.

I get the feeling that it is unfortunate to focus on pottery (sadly often the main remains) when trying to understand male lineage spread. It might be better to look at male specific or less likely female derived elements in the culture and remains. For example the archery and dagger as opposed to hammer axe traditions. Archery is kind of ubiquitous in Europe from the steppes to the Atlantic but the knife tradition is interesting and the tradition rather than the specifics of style may be more important. Beaker people seemed to have significantly different military practices and self image compared to corded ware although I wouldnt push that to absolutes. The dagger tradition is of course older than beaker, substantially older in places like parts of the Balkans. Far west steppe groups like Usatovo had a rivetted dagger tradition, presumably borrowed from the older Balkans traditions - also known in the Alpine areas. Even the Suvorovo groups had a tradition of nasty big flint blades.

Then there is metallurgy -apparently technically the same as used in CW but then CW's main copper source was in the Carpathians AFAIK albeit there might have also been a source in Germany.

MT1976
07-17-2015, 02:37 PM
...and then they expanded their study in 2004 to include Czech, Hungarian and Austrian samples and had this to say...

Rich I think the conclusions of this study, dovetail nicely with the writings of Marc van der Linden. Perhaps some might view them archaic in the light of recent aDNA, but i still think they capture reality better. Perhaps we are being led astray slightly by focussing on 'genetic flows', esp Y chromosome markers. Im not so much interested in where BB 'began'. In fact i think such a question misunderstands the nature of the phenoenon, and I thus always disagreed with the out-of-Iberia paradigm which long dominated. Rather, i very much suspect that the BB was characterized by criss-crossing netowrks of exchange - material and human- across those regions in which it is found. Moreover, it must have meant somethin, becuase there are large areas of central - western Europe not part of the BB horizon. And these have not been investigated much

MT1976
07-17-2015, 02:46 PM
Its going to be very hard to infer the details because out-marriage even once can change the autosomal DNA considerably. There are so many possible permutations. As far as I can tell the beaker east group (i.e. the central European group) just suddenly was everywhere in the beaker part of central Europe c. 2500BC. We now know of course they were linked to R1b, almost certainly overwhelmingly P312 - and I would further guess that U152, found already in this section of beaker culture - was the dominant clade of this massive expansion. I dont know a lot about the U152 tree but an enormous sudden branching about 2500BC and the century after should be obvious if it is to match the archaeological record of the beaker east group.

Similarly in the isles DF13 should have a mega expansion around the same time or perhaps a generation after the beaker east group. As far as I can make out the beakers in the Rhine and the isles have a mix of east and west beaker aspects and are a bit harder to pin down and understand than the east and west continental groups. I have no doubt L21 crossed the channel to the isles from opposite coasts closest but I havent got a clue about its story before it got to the continental channel/lower Rhine position.

Beaker individuals with mega mobility and a propensity to marry out will always be archaeologically confusing - there has got to have been a bit of a Magpie quality in that sort of lifestyle, at least in the mobile pioneering lineages. All those pottery influences on beaker and especialy in companion ware -including polypod pots, corded influences seen in isles beaker etc - must relate to this magpie like quality and, pottery being a largely female craft, probably speaks of a complex network of out-marriages with woman of neighbouring cultures. Thank goodness for ancient DNA because I dont think archaeology could on its own ever fully resolve the migrations involved in beaker.

As my comment to Rich, the Y DNA evidence cannot be denied, the star like expansion of R1b in western Europe, etc.. But I think evidence from much of Atlantic Europe is sorely missing - not that im expecting to find anything there too revolutionary or unusual.

I think it must have something to do with the fact that the late 4th, early 3rd Mill was a period of lower population density. New migration, drift and selection must explain the expansion of R1b. Of course, we need later and wider evidence. R1b arrived in Early Bronze Age, but when did it begin to approach today's large frequencies ? Id bet, much later.

TigerMW
07-17-2015, 03:21 PM
As my comment to Rich, the Y DNA evidence cannot be denied, the star like expansion of R1b in western Europe, etc.....
New migration, drift and selection must explain the expansion of R1b. Of course, we need later and wider evidence. R1b arrived in Early Bronze Age, but when did it begin to approach today's large frequencies ? Id bet, much later.
I think we need to be specific related to the Y DNA and R1b. We are probably most focused on P311 as far as western and central European prevalence.
If we look at the P311 MRCA, we see that within only a handful of generations or two a tremendous number subclades were founded that have sustained themselves until today.

There were no doubt various population growth spurts since them among P311 subclades but this initial growth spurt and the apparent rapid geographic expansion and cultural inter-marriage can not be avoided. We should not underestimate a high inter-cultural marriage rate since both the additional gene mixing and cultural alliances, to go with the geographic expansion may have helped provide the sustainability we now see.

nuadha
07-17-2015, 05:11 PM
there was a lot of female movement that went east to west, otherwise the yamnaya like component would have been diluted far too quickly.

Even the bb isotopic study found about as many female migrants from the northeast as male. I would not exclude the females.

nuadha
07-17-2015, 05:18 PM
Rich I think the conclusions of this study, dovetail nicely with the writings of Marc van der Linden. Perhaps some might view them archaic in the light of recent aDNA, but i still think they capture reality better. Perhaps we are being led astray slightly by focussing on 'genetic flows', esp Y chromosome markers. Im not so much interested in where BB 'began'. In fact i think such a question misunderstands the nature of the phenoenon, and I thus always disagreed with the out-of-Iberia paradigm which long dominated. Rather, i very much suspect that the BB was characterized by criss-crossing netowrks of exchange - material and human- across those regions in which it is found. Moreover, it must have meant somethin, becuase there are large areas of central - western Europe not part of the BB horizon. And these have not been investigated much

There is a flow because there was more ydna going in one direction than the other. Its the same with autosomal dna for that matter. I agree network is a good and applicable concept, especially when people were focused on the idea of one single origin, but it was still a migration.

alan
07-17-2015, 05:28 PM
As my comment to Rich, the Y DNA evidence cannot be denied, the star like expansion of R1b in western Europe, etc.. But I think evidence from much of Atlantic Europe is sorely missing - not that im expecting to find anything there too revolutionary or unusual.

I think it must have something to do with the fact that the late 4th, early 3rd Mill was a period of lower population density. New migration, drift and selection must explain the expansion of R1b. Of course, we need later and wider evidence. R1b arrived in Early Bronze Age, but when did it begin to approach today's large frequencies ? Id bet, much later.

i actually agree that the change in dna we see is probably skewed to the elites/better off which may give a false appearance of how big and sudden the impact was on the whole population - which may have been far more gradual.

One limiting factor on the power of beaker lineages who controlled metals is that in the beaker era and even somewhat beyond it the metal items were really for prestige and show and didnt give huge practical advantage. Many tools and weapons remained non-metal and indeed some very high level of skill in making flint tools dates to the beaker and immediate post-beaker period.

It was only towards the end of the early Bronze Age where skilled flint and stone tools and weapons (most strikingly arrowheads in the isles) disappear. From that point onwards with the skill with flint essentially lost and the increasing practicality of tools and weapons I believe the lineage controlling metals entered a period of incredible power and prestige. I cant put an exact date on it although it fell somewhere between 2000 and 1500BC in the isles - probably somewhere in the middle.

It was also a handy thing that loss of flint skills also meant no arrows. The people who controlled the metals in the isles appear to have made sure that arrows were not made in metals, thus eliminating this great leveling weapon which elites probably feared. However, I have seen metal arrows in other areas - I think Unetice for example.

I certainly feel that the lineages linked with metals moved from welcome provider of exotic status items c. 2500BC to having the population totally dependent on them by 1500BC. There were a number of steppes along the way -tin bronze, advances in weaponry, loss of skilled flint tool making etc. I tend to think of the beaker lines as Trojan horses or a slow fuse explosion.

vettor
07-17-2015, 06:19 PM
interesting article about Bell Beakers

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com.au/2015/07/bell-beaker-in-light-of-yamna-corded.html

https://www.academia.edu/13523029/_July_1_2015_._Paradigm_as_a_Buried_Method_in_the_ 21st_Century_Pseudoscience_in_Massive_Migration_.. ._._Publication_of_the_International_Institute_of_ Anthropology

MT1976
07-17-2015, 11:37 PM
i actually agree that the change in dna we see is probably skewed to the elites/better off which may give a false appearance of how big and sudden the impact was on the whole population - which may have been far more gradual.

One limiting factor on the power of beaker lineages who controlled metals is that in the beaker era and even somewhat beyond it the metal items were really for prestige and show and didnt give huge practical advantage. Many tools and weapons remained non-metal and indeed some very high level of skill in making flint tools dates to the beaker and immediate post-beaker period. It was only towards the end of the early Bronze Age where skilled flint and stone tools and weapons (most strikingly arrowheads in the isles) disappear. From that point onwards with the skill with flint essentially lost and the increasing practicality of tools and weapons I believe the lineage controlling metals entered a period of incredible power and prestige. I cant put an exact date on it although it fell somewhere between 2000 and 1500BC in the isles - probably somewhere in the middle. It was also a handy thing that loss of flint skills also meant no arrows. The people who controlled the metals in the isles appear to have made sure that arrows were not made in metals, thus eliminating this great leveling weapon which elites probably feared. However, I have seen metal arrows in other areas - I think Unetice for example. I certainly feel that the lineages linked with metals moved from welcome provider of exotic status items c. 2500BC to having the population totally dependent on them by 1500BC. There were a number of steppes along the way -tin bronze, advances in weaponry, loss of skilled flint tool making etc. I tend to think of the beaker lines as Trojan horses or a slow fuse explosion.

Interesting concept . To use an analogy; in the late Avar period (700-800), there was a 'democritization' of weaponry, which must have contributed to the rise of local potentates /challengers not seen in the early Avar period.
Yes, the control of weapons must have been crucial for power