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View Full Version : Haplogroup R-Z142 and the "Kinman Hypothesis"



kinman
07-17-2015, 02:07 AM
Hi all,
For the past couple of months, I have begun trying to study the origin and evolution of Haplogroup R-Z142 (within R-Z49), and particularly its recently discovered subclade (presently called R-S18325 on the YFull tree, but which will probably be renamed as the slightly larger R-FGC22963 haplogroup). Anyway, I am calling the following ideas the "Kinman Hypothesis" for short, and welcome any comments or evidence either in favor or against my ideas (divided into 4 parts):
(1) I have concluded that both Haplogroup R-Z142 and its subclade R-FGC22963 most likely originated in the southwestern part of the state of Baden-Wurttemberg, Germany, in or near the Black Forest. The earliest branching family of R-FGC22963, Bendell, seems to have spread out from that area into other areas of Germany, as well as west across the Rhine into Alsace-Lorraine, France (there usually spelled Bendel). They would much later enter England and probably give rise to the Bovingdon/Buffington families by the 13th Century. Another important branch includes the Skinner and Zur Bruegg families (the latter around Bern, Switzerland, not far south of the Black Forest). And yet another major branch are the Langleys and their descendants (called Subgroup L in the Langley Project at FTDNA). There is also a basal branch of R-Z142 including the families Stewart, Hill, Perrott (of France, then England), and others.
(2) However, perhaps my most novel idea is that the descendants of these families who ended up in England are concentrated in Buckinghamshire, especially in the south near the Thames River. My first clue was that some of our Langleys have traced their line back to Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire, and Langleys still live there and in Burrnham and various other places in southern Bucks, and have given their name to various places in the area. Then I realized that the village of Bovingdon Green is right next to Great Marlow, and the Buffington/Bovingdon family has a long history in the area, perhaps having been a branch of the Bendells in Buckinghamshire. Buffingtons/Bovingdons also still live in Burnham (and Farnham Royal, etc.). And at some point, a Langley apparently gave rise to a line of Maner/Maynor families. And although Sir Richard Perrott ended up further west in Somersetshire, at least one branch of that family ended up in Buckinghamshire (Newport Pagnell, etc.) and adjacent Bedfordshire (birthplace of Richard Perrott, early colonist of Virginia). Descendants of the Skinner and Zur Bruegg families apparently emigrated directly from continental Europe to America. But the others, were long established in Buckinghamshire before some members emigrated to Virginia in the 1600s (and some of their descendants then moving south to North Carolina, Georgia, etc.).
(3) The question then arose in my mind, when had these members of Haplogroup R-FGC22963 moved from France to England? I now put forward the idea that most of them came with Sir Richard Perrott of Brittany, France, who accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066, and provided the Norman invasion with his quota of men and ships. Perrott was presumably a member of the Perrott family in that basal branch R-Z142* which split off just before the mutation giving rise to larger R-FGC22963 group discussed above. It seems reasonable to assume that various members of the subgroups of R-Z142 could have slowly moved together from northeast France to northwest France (before finally sending members into England, especially in 1066).
(4) In summary, I propose that members of R-Z142 spread out from their origin (in or near the Black Forest) in all directions. However, it was the westward migration across the Rhine and then across northern France (and then into England, and later emigrations to Virginia), always by the most adventuresome members, which allowed this haplogroup to become so numerous and widespread. That some of their families would then continue together south from Virginia to the Carolinas, Georgia, and beyond, would be just a continuation of the long association these families have had for well over 4,000 years. I anticipate finding many more families in R-Z142 showing this same general pattern of western migration. Or are there other "hotspots" in England I have overlooked where these families occur together over a long period of time? Any feedback would be appreciated.
---------------Ken Kinman

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MitchellSince1893
07-17-2015, 02:49 AM
One can't disprove you theory per say, but I could throw out a bunch of other possibilities as R-S18325 is estimated on the Ytree to have formed 4300 years ago.

1. It arrived with Bell Beaker culture to Britain from the Low Countries circa 2100-2300 BC.
2. It came out of the Urnfield culture and crossed into Britain ~3000 ybp.
3. It came to Britain via the Hallstaat Culture 2800 years ago
4. It came to Britain via the La Tene Culture 2500 years ago
4. It came to Britain via the Belgae immigrants in the first and 2nd centuries BC.
5. It came to Britain with the Roman occupation forces from Gaul and the Low Countries
6. It was a small minority haplogroup of the Frisian/Angle/Saxon/Jute invasions 1600 years ago.
7. It was a small minority haplogroup brought by the Danes during the Danelaw period.
8. It came in with the Normans/Flemish 1000 years ago
9. It arrived with the Huguenots 400 years ago.
10. It arrived with the Palatinate Germans 400 years ago.

It arrived from multiple waves above i.e. some S1835 arrived with Bell Beaker, more arrived with Hallstaat and Romans occupation etc.

Some of the the more recent examples could be ruled out if you were able to prove your ancestors were in England prior to the arrival of said people, but at this point we can't really rule out the any of the earlier possibilities.

kinman
07-17-2015, 03:13 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the much earlier migrations of R-S18325 (R-FGC22964) are a possibility. However, I wouldn't have expected them to have stayed together in Buckinghamshire as well as they have if they came over at those much earlier times. They would have more than likely been more scattered (or some even obliterated) after the later invasions. Many of those earlier Celts got pushed west and north into Wales, northern England, and Scotland. So I think the relatively "late" Norman invasion in 1066 (from northwestern France) is a more likely explanation.

MitchellSince1893
07-17-2015, 04:19 AM
Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the much earlier migrations of R-S18325 (R-FGC22964) are a possibility. However, I wouldn't have expected them to have stayed together in Buckinghamshire as well as they have if they came over at those much earlier times. They would have more than likely been more scattered (or some even obliterated) after the later invasions. Many of those earlier Celts got pushed west and north into Wales, northern England, and Scotland. So I think the relatively "late" Norman invasion in 1066 (from northwestern France) is a more likely explanation.

I was primarily referring to how R-S18325/R-FGC22964 and all of it's to be discovered sub branches, got to England. If I understand correctly, I believe your focus is primarily on a yet to be discovered specific subbranch of R-S18325/R-FGC22964 many levels down, localized in the Buckinghamshire area and associated with the Bovingdon/Buffington surnames.

As you mentioned R-S18325/R-FGC22964 includes Langley. When I looked at subgroup L of the Langley project, it's not localized but rather has members from Scotland, Wales, England, and possibly France. It is possible they all came to the British Isles within the last 1000 years e.g. with the Norman Invasion, and spread to Wales and Scotland; but then you have R-S18325/R-FGC22964 member zur Brügg from Switzerland.

You may be on to something but I think it pertains to a yet to be discovered subbranch of R-S18325/R-FGC22964.

Just to give you an example from my own branch of Z142, Z150/Z12222. Currently there are members from Spain, the Netherlands, France, Italy, England, and Scotland. Early on Z150/Z12222 may have been in close proximity to R-S18325/R-FGC22964, possibly as you said, in or near the Black Forest, where it spread primarily North, West, and South. R-S18325/R-FGC22964 may have done the same thing.

One level down from Z150/Z12222, on FGC12378 et al./Y3141 et al, everyone is currently from England and it may be tempting to call this a truly British branch, but
Two levels down from Z150/Z12222, on FGC12383 members are from Spain, and the Netherlands
Three levels down from Z150/Z12222, on FGC12401 et al/Y9080 there are 2 members both from England. This is circa 1000 BC. Again it may be tempting to say I've found the British subbranch for this line, but I'd be wise to wait to see what comes out four, five, six etc. levels down from Z150 before coming to that conclusion.

All that to say, you will probably need to wait until additional subbranches below your line of R-S18325/R-FGC22964 are discovered before you get to the one that relates specifically to the Buckingham concentration.

kinman
07-17-2015, 02:41 PM
Yes, my primary focus has been on R-S18325, but then expanded to the slightly larger R-FGC22963. I have just started exploring the basal R-Z142* group, but will also begin exploring other Z142 subclades. You mentioned your R-FGC12378 (within R-Z150), which apparently includes Stephen Brace. Although he apparently came from Middlesex County, I would not be surprised if he is related to the Brace families just west of London (in and around the area of Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, along with the Perrott families).

So if the "Kinman Hypothesis" is correct, I wouldn't be surprised if the Brace line and your Mitchell line also came with Sir Richard de Perrott's forces during the Norman Invasion. The same could be true for the Mason line in my R-S18325, and the Stewart and Hill families in the basal R-142* branch. I will be exploring other R-Z142 families for possible ties with Buckinghamshire families, and would encourage others to do so as well.
----------------Ken

MattL
07-17-2015, 06:35 PM
Very interesting, the back and forth definitely get the ideas flowing.

Two questions though:
1) @kinman: You mention some Langleys in group L trace to Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire. Which lines are this? My line intersects directly with a lot of the Langley L group likely before an immigrant ancestor and I have yet to confirm an immigrant ancestor. The most likely candidate is a William Langley who went to Norfolk Virginia before 1656. Where he came from as far as I've seen and researched is unknown, it's assumed he came from England (which is likely though in fairness that's an assumption too) but not from where, the assumptions are usually tied to the localities bearing the name Langley in England but that as far as I can tell is purely an assumption (though I could be missing something). Also the connection to the Norfolk Langleys as far as I have researched isn't very definitive in itself, partially since a lot of records and wills have survived from Norfolk but not all other areas in Virginia so it could be people just mapping to the most apparent option.

2) @Mitchel: You mention Langley L group members who trace to Scotland, Wales and France, just curious what information you have on this?

kinman
07-17-2015, 08:12 PM
Very interesting, the back and forth definitely get the ideas flowing.

Two questions though:
1) @kinman: You mention some Langleys in group L trace to Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire. Which lines are this? My line intersects directly with a lot of the Langley L group likely before an immigrant ancestor and I have yet to confirm an immigrant ancestor. The most likely candidate is a William Langley who went to Norfolk Virginia before 1656. Where he came from as far as I've seen and researched is unknown, it's assumed he came from England (which is likely though in fairness that's an assumption too) but not from where, the assumptions are usually tied to the localities bearing the name Langley in England but that as far as I can tell is purely an assumption (though I could be missing something). Also the connection to the Norfolk Langleys as far as I have researched isn't very definitive in itself, partially since a lot of records and wills have survived from Norfolk but not all other areas in Virginia so it could be people just mapping to the most apparent option.

2) @Mitchel: You mention Langley L group members who trace to Scotland, Wales and France, just curious what information you have on this?
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Actually for quite some time, I didn't even pay much attention to the Langley trees tracing back from North Carolina to William Langley (died 1676, Norfolk Co., Virginia) which listed his father as William Langley (died 22 July 1652, Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire), because they were on Ancestry.com, and I couldn't find any that backed it up with solid references. But then when I saw all those related families with ties to that area (especially the Buffingtons of Bovingdon Green, which is right next to Great Marlow), I decided that perhaps they might be right (even if it was based on guess work, rather than solid evidence).

But since they give an exact date of 22 July 1652 at Great Marlow, I assume a William Langley did die on that date, but I never had the time to figure out if he could be shown to be father of William Langley of Norfolk Co., Virginia. Anyway, I'm not too concerned about it now, because I did a quick check on more of the Z142 family surnames, and several have possible relatives born in Great Marlow---such as Greenwell, Graves, Tucker, Harding, and Fay. I also want to check Hebert, Davenport, and Peacock families north of Great Marlow. Thankfully, I didn't have anything planned for this weekend. If I do find anything more definite about William Langley of Great Marlow, I'll let you know.
--------------Ken

MattL
07-17-2015, 10:43 PM
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Actually for quite some time, I didn't even pay much attention to the Langley trees tracing back from North Carolina to William Langley (died 1676, Norfolk Co., Virginia) which listed his father as William Langley (died 22 July 1652, Great Marlow, Buckinghamshire), because they were on Ancestry.com, and I couldn't find any that backed it up with solid references. But then when I saw all those related families with ties to that area (especially the Buffingtons of Bovingdon Green, which is right next to Great Marlow), I decided that perhaps they might be right (even if it was based on guess work, rather than solid evidence).

But since they give an exact date of 22 July 1652 at Great Marlow, I assume a William Langley did die on that date, but I never had the time to figure out if he could be shown to be father of William Langley of Norfolk Co., Virginia. Anyway, I'm not too concerned about it now, because I did a quick check on more of the Z142 family surnames, and several have possible relatives born in Great Marlow---such as Greenwell, Graves, Tucker, Harding, and Fay. I also want to check Hebert, Davenport, and Peacock families north of Great Marlow. Thankfully, I didn't have anything planned for this weekend. If I do find anything more definite about William Langley of Great Marlow, I'll let you know.
--------------Ken

Ahh ok... you may be correct and that may be where the Langley group comes from. Some day will figure it out.

kinman
07-18-2015, 03:43 PM
Yes, my primary focus has been on R-S18325, but then expanded to the slightly larger R-FGC22963. I have just started exploring the basal R-Z142* group, but will also begin exploring other Z142 subclades. You mentioned your R-FGC12378 (within R-Z150), which apparently includes Stephen Brace. Although he apparently came from Middlesex County, I would not be surprised if he is related to the Brace families just west of London (in and around the area of Newport Pagnell, Buckinghamshire, along with the Perrott families).

So if the "Kinman Hypothesis" is correct, I wouldn't be surprised if the Brace line and your Mitchell line also came with Sir Richard de Perrott's forces during the Norman Invasion. The same could be true for the Mason line in my R-S18325, and the Stewart and Hill families in the basal R-142* branch. I will be exploring other R-Z142 families for possible ties with Buckinghamshire families, and would encourage others to do so as well.
----------------Ken
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Hi all,
As I expand into other subclades of R-Z142, I decided to first look at Stephen Brace (b. ca. 1640, London?; d. 1692, Connecticut), because he happens to be my ancestor (through a female line). I discovered that the Braci/Bracey/Brace family appeared at Stone (near Aylesbury), Buckinghamshire, very soon after Domesday Book (1086), and probably came with William the Conqueror from one of the two places named Breci in Normandy.
Aylesbury is about half way between Great Marlow and Newton Pagnell, and being not far west of London, I am pretty confident that Stephen Brace (b. ca. 1640, London?) or his immediate ancestors came from this area of Buckinghamshire. There are still plenty of Brace families in this area after over 900 years. Anyway, I'll add him as matching my theory that most of Haplogroup R-Z142 in England came over with William the Conqueror and many of these settled in Buckinghamshire.
----------------Ken

kinman
07-19-2015, 01:52 AM
I was just reading that at least some Mitchell families in England were apparently descendants of Radulphus, Geoffrey, Selle, and William de St. Michel, who accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066 and are thought to have come from Mont de St. Michel, Normandy (near the border with Brittany). If they are the ancestors of our Mitchell, that would at least fit well with the timing I proposed in the Kinman Hypothesis. I just wonder if any of them lived in or near Buckinghamshire. Lots of Mitchell baptism records there (especially in Burnham, Aylesbury, Newport Pagnell, and Great Marlow), but it seems to be a fairly common surname elsewhere as well. Also noticed that Newport Pagnell was named for Fulk Pagnell, and that he and members of his family had dealings with the abbey of Mont de St. Michel, but that could be coincidental. But I am learning a lot about early Norman England and its continued close ties with Normandy for a long time.

MitchellSince1893
07-19-2015, 02:09 AM
I was just reading that at least some Mitchell families in England were apparently descendants of Radulphus, Geoffrey, Selle, and William de St. Michel, who accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066 and are thought to have come from Mont de St. Michel, Normandy (near the border with Brittany). If they are the ancestors of our Mitchell, that would at least fit well with the timing I proposed in the Kinman Hypothesis. I just wonder if any of them lived in or near Buckinghamshire. Lots of Mitchell baptism records there (especially in Burnham, Aylesbury, Newport Pagnell, and Great Marlow), but it seems to be a fairly common surname elsewhere as well. Also noticed that Newport Pagnell was named for Fulk Pagnell, and that he and members of his family had dealings with the abbey of Mont de St. Michel, but that could be coincidental. But I am learning a lot about early Norman England and its continued close ties with Normandy for a long time.

Before 1893 my y-dna line wasn't Mitchell (unless by some freak coincidence, my paternal line ended up being Mitchell).
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3987-Help-me-to-solve-a-family-Mystery-My-paternal-line-before-my-great-grandfather

kinman
07-19-2015, 06:24 PM
Now I understand the name MitchellSince1893. You do seem to be looking for a needle in a haystack. It must be very frustrating waiting for that needle (a closer match) to get YDNA tested. It can be even more frustrating with a female born out of wedlock, and an eventual autosomal DNA match is probably the only hope left of ever tracking down the father.

I was looking at that Hotspot map for U152 in England, and I noticed that Buckinghamshire was one of the few hotspots in southern England. I am now wondering if there are any similar maps for subclade L2 or even Z49?
-----------Ken

MitchellSince1893
07-19-2015, 06:47 PM
Now I understand the name MitchellSince1893. You do seem to be looking for a needle in a haystack. It must be very frustrating waiting for that needle (a closer match) to get YDNA tested. It can be even more frustrating with a female born out of wedlock, and an eventual autosomal DNA match is probably the only hope left of ever tracking down the father.

I was looking at that Hotspot map for U152 in England, and I noticed that Buckinghamshire was one of the few hotspots in southern England. I am now wondering if there are any similar maps for subclade L2 or even Z49?
-----------Ken
No but I could make one or a chart...although with very very small sample sizes.

MitchellSince1893
07-19-2015, 07:04 PM
Not a lot of Z49 samples out there in The British Isles DNA Project by County, but here is what there is...also included U152 project data:

Aberdeenshire
101133 William FERGUSON, b. 1723, Old Deer, ABD, SCT Scotland R-L562 (Z142+)

Angus
14125 George (Georgius) Maule England R-Z49 (Z142-)

Argyll
73381 Patrick MacArthur in Argyll, Scotland Scotland R-L562 (Z142+)

Buckinghamshire
99788 Richard Buffington, 1635, Bovingdon Green, Bucks England R-Z49

Cambridgeshire, England
206005 Richard CLARKE, 1831 [Fulbourn] CAM UK -1912 England R-Z57

Cheshire
209585 Thomas Davenport - 1615-1685 of Dorchester, Ma. England R-Z49 (Z142+)

Cornwall
145421 William Skinner, b. c1704 England R-Z49 (Z142+)

Cork Co., Ireland
240232 Stephen Barry, b. ca. 1780, Barryroe,Cork, Ireland Ireland R-Z49 (Z142- Originally from the Netherlands)

Cumberland
40368 Francis Reid, m 1749, Kirklinton, CUL, England England R-Z49

Devonshire, England
N28922 William Philpot b 3 Sept 1783 Swimbridge, Devon, England R-CTS7970

England (county unknown)
136311 John Mason, b.1740 England d.1807 Philadelphia PA England R-Z49 (Z142+)
102977 William Hill (bef 1742 – bef 1785) England R-L2 (Z142+)
6342 John Hill (bef1710?-c1780) of Amelia County, VA England R-Z49 (Z142+)
203575 Edgar Fay, b.c. 1873, USA England R-Z49 (Z142+)
N115212 Stephen Brace, d. 1692, b. 1644 England England R-Z150 (Z142+)
184173 John Greenwell 1625 - 1658 England R-Z49

Essex
8642 Thomas Foakes, ~1660 - 1711, Essex England R-Z49 (Z142+)

Hertfordshire
233271 Charles R. Foad, b 1904, Sawbridgeworth, HRT, ENG England R-L562

Kincardineshire
313855 Walter Burness, 1615-1670, Glenbervie, Scotland Scotland R-CTS278

Lincolnshire, England
N1950 Johnson, Winterton, Lincolnshire, England England R-L562


Middlesex
223609 Thomas Augustus Swaysland, b. 1797 and d. 1841 England R-Z49
268283 Horatio Sylvanus Roberts 1822London-1910Sydney NSW England R-U152

Norfolk Co., England
N90964 Thomas Applegate-55, b c1604 Norfolk d c1657 NY England R-L562 (Z142+)
130589 Edward Lincoln, b.c. 1580, Norfolk, England England R-U152 (Z142+)
211664 George Pigman d.Aug1649 Hunstanton,Norfolk,England England R-Z49 (Z142+)

Northamptonshire
207883 Richard Harding(Hardinge/Harden), 1597-1657 England R-CTS8125 (Z142+)
1620 Gen. 270, John Graves/Greaves, b.c. 1665 England R-CTS7970 (Z142+)

Scotland (county unknown)
N111533 David Pride 1762-1842 Scotland R-Z49
232800 John Henderson b. 1670 Scotland Scotland R-CTS7970 (Z142+)

Suffolk
281157 William Moody 1611 [poss Ipswich SFK -] 1673 England R-Z49 (Z142-)

Wales (county unknown)
144940 ROBARDS, John b.1684 ?Wales Wales R-Z49 (Z142-)

Yorkshire
65315 George Ward b~1747 Handsworth,Sheffield, Yorks,Eng England R-L2


Keep in mind that there are other Z49+ and Z142+ that aren't from British Isles or France

273531 Sakse Ottarsen Balle ab1535 Bjørkedal, Volda MRO Norway R-Z149 (Z142+)
B3637 Bernardo Vasquez, b. ca.1770, Galicia, Spain Spain R-Z148 (Z142+)
N114339 Giovanni Pietro Giacometti, b 1790, Someo, Ticino Switzerland R-L562 (Z142+)
13788 Peter zur Brügg (1700-1761), Wengi bei Frutigen, S Switzerland R-Z49 (Z142+)
72367 Natale Squecco Abt 1550,Cavazzo Carnico UD - ITALY Italy R-Z49 (Z142-)
142637 Borbándi, Torja, Szekelyland Hungary R-Z49 (Z142-)
258131 Frederick Steinbuck, abt 1829 - aft 1870 Germany R-Z49 (Z142-)
309846 Tyres Olsson, b.abt. 1668, d. 1753 Sweden R-Z49 (Z142-)
376225 Israel Argillander s.1630 k. 1691 Saarijärvi Finland R-U152 (Z49+, Z142-)
N55642 Ludwig Gottlieb Bruns, Leipzig, Germany Germany R-Z49 (Z142-)
B22173 Johann Stratmann, b.1765, Bad Wünnenberg Germany R-U152 (Z49+, Z142-)
N71871 Johannes Haussli, b1587, Brütten, Kt Zh, Schweiz Switzerland R-F2083 (Z49+, Z142-)
64890 Wojciech Dyrek, b. 1900, Lacko, Poland Poland R-Z49 (Z142-)
N9622 Johannes Grauel, b. 1625, Schluctern, Hessen, Germ Germany R-Z49 (Z142-)
121740 Johann Anton Doerter (Darter) 1729 Laubach,Germany Germany R-Z49 (Z142-)
N90233 AntonioTomasso, 1856, Vallerotonda, FR, Italy Italy R-Z49 (Z142-)
B2635 Mathias Kummer, 1672-1727, Deisenhofen, Bayern Germany R-Z49 (Z142-)
266162 Heinrich Krames, b. 1865 and d. 1939, Germany Germany R-P37 (Z49+)
B3175 Andreas Kabitzki, b.1776, d. 1/8/1832 West Prussia Germany R-P37 (Z49+)
N102392 Andrew Smith, b. 1736 and d. 1811 Switzerland R-Z49
N131911 Jan Kisielnicki, b. 1922 Poland R-Z49
315957 Fins Mats Andersson b 1626 d 1679 Mora (W) Sweden Sweden R-Z49
188493 Russian Federation R-Z49
264772 Gustaf Lorentzon, b. 1871 Nyköping, SWE, d. 1951. Sweden R-Z49
N46133 Johann Peter Morasch, 1674-, Kleinhuebach, Germany Germany R-Z49

Pigmon
07-19-2015, 08:05 PM
Wow! Very thorough and informative Mark.

I should be under Norfolk, England though instead of Suffolk.


Suffolk
281157 William Moody 1611 [poss Ipswich SFK -] 1673 England R-Z49 (Z142-)
211664 George Pigman d.Aug1649 Hunstanton,Norfolk,England England R-Z49 (Z142+ Z150*)

Thanks

kinman
07-19-2015, 09:42 PM
Wow, that was fast. Thanks. Among those who are Z142+ on the continent, I am not surprised by the two in Switzerland (being not far south of the Black Forest). However, I guess the ones in Norway and Spain definitely need explaining. Since they are not far from the coast, I suppose their ancestors could have been mariners from France or Britain. Now I just need to see if I can connect some of the county unknowns to either Buckinghamshire or Middlesex.
----------Ken
P.S. Looks like those in R-Z49 who are Z142- tended to stay in Germany, but some trickling out in all directions (at least a trickle compared to the big move made by their Z142+ relatives across northern France and then to Britain).

MitchellSince1893
07-19-2015, 09:49 PM
Wow! Very thorough and informative Mark.

I should be under Norfolk, England though instead of Suffolk.


Suffolk
281157 William Moody 1611 [poss Ipswich SFK -] 1673 England R-Z49 (Z142-)
211664 George Pigman d.Aug1649 Hunstanton,Norfolk,England England R-Z49 (Z142+ Z150*)

Thanks
Sorry I got my Folks mixed up...fixed it

kinman
07-19-2015, 10:32 PM
I got out my notes on Stephen Brace (or Bracey). His father Thomas Bracey was baptized in Maulden, Bedfordshire, in 1601, who in 1617 inherited land in nearby Nettleden, Buckinghamshire (which is east of Aylesbury) from his father Edmund (who had been baptized in London). Thomas Bracey was indentured in London and he was married in 1631 in London, so I would list Thomas Bracey in Middlesex County (whether he ever lived on his land at Nettleden, Buckinghamshire, or not). Stephen Brace was probably born after his parents emigrated to Massachusetts.

MitchellSince1893
07-19-2015, 11:26 PM
[EDITED to fix identity error]

A couple of things to keep in mine with your hypothesis is the concepts of genetic distance (GD) and Time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) based on STRs and SNP ages.


MRCA -- Most Recent Common Ancestor: In this context, it refers to the straight paternal line. The MRCA of brothers is their father, the MRCA of first cousins is their grandfather, and so forth. If the genealogy is not known, the time to the MRCA (TMRCA) can be estimated statistically, using the mutation rate of markers on the Y chromosome. On the average, the closer the DNA match, the more recent the TMRCA. The 95% confidence interval for the TMRCA typically covers a very wide range. If a single value is stated, it is usually the median value (50% of pairs who match each other at X out of Y markers will find their common ancestor within G generations, but 50% will have to keep on looking).

I used the http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html tool and your data along with your FGC22963 matches to look at a STR comparison.

5251

Your closest matches are William/Miles Langley 67/37 markers at GD =6/4 and with TMRCA = 570/660 years ago.

Here is what FTDNA has to say about 37/67 marker matches.

A 33/37 match between two men who share a common surname (or variant) means they may share a common male ancestor. This relationship should be confirmed with additional testing. The only way to confirm the relationship is to test additional family lines and to find where the mutations took place. By testing additional family lines you can find the person in between. This ‘in betweener’ is essential for you to find.

A 61/67 or 62/67 match between two men who share the same surname (or a variant) means that they may to share a common ancestor within the genealogical time frame. The common ancestor is probably not recent, but may still be within the range of most well-established surname lineages in Western Europe.
It is most likely that they matched 24/25, 36/37 or 37/37 on previous Y-DNA tests. Mismatches are within DYS458, DYS459, DYS449, DYS464, DYS576, DYS570, and CDY.

https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/y-dna-testing/y-str/two-men-share-surname-genetic-distance-37-y-chromosome-str-markers-interpreted/

"Genealogical Time Frame: A time frame within the last 500 up to 1000 years since the adoption of surnames and written family records."
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_Glossary.html

Your other FGC22963 matches range from 1800 to 2670 years ago. This is in part why I believe Z142 has arrived through various waves over several thousand years. Most of the currently identified members of Z142 have great GD with each other using STRs, and they are on different SNPs below Z142 where TMRCAs diverged in most cases over 3000 years ago.

Using SNP counting methodolgy Yfull has come up with ages for various SNPs. Look how long ago the various branches of Z142 diverged.
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z142/
The Z142 TMRCA is estimated to have lived 4300 years ago...meaning one would have to go back approximately 4300 years to get to the man whom all currently known Z142 men descend from.



I got out my notes on Stephen Brace (or Bracey). His father Thomas Bracey was baptized in Maulden, Bedfordshire, in 1601, who in 1617 inherited land in nearby Nettleden, Buckinghamshire (which is east of Aylesbury) from his father Edmund (who had been baptized in London). Thomas Bracey was indentured in London and he was married in 1631 in London, so I would list Thomas Bracey in Middlesex County (whether he ever lived on his land at Nettleden, Buckinghamshire, or not). Stephen Brace was probably born after his parents emigrated to Massachusetts.

Based on the above, the MRCA for you and Brace would have lived approximately 4300 years ago (confidence interval of 95% that it's between 4900 to 3800 years ago) .

Your own branch R-S18325/FGC22940 * FGC22942 * FGC22963, currently has TMRCA at 3700 years ago (CI 95% 4800 to 2700 years ago) meaning that you, Buffington, zur Brugg, Langley, etc, shared ancestor lived somewhere between 700 BC and 2800 BC.

kinman
07-20-2015, 02:13 AM
Yes, I agree that it sounds about right that my MRCA with Stephen Brace (in the male line) lived about 4,300 years ago. And my MRCA with Zur Brugg at 3000 years ago sounds fairly reasonable.

However, I cannot believe that my MRCA with the Langley family is anywhere near that old. STR marker values show that I am actually closer to Langley than to Zur Brugg. And my match results at FTDNA show four Langleys matching me at 33 out of 37, and one of those is even 63 out of 67. I don't get a match with ZurBrugg until 12 markers (matching 11 out of 12), but I have 17 matches with Langleys with 12 out of 12.
--------------Ken

MitchellSince1893
07-20-2015, 03:08 AM
My apologies, I was confused about your identity...I thought you were either 99788 Richard Buffington, 1635, Bovingdon Green, Bucks England R-Z49, or
399543 John David Bendell Unknown Origin R-U152,

but I now realize you are 380315 John Kinman b. ca. 1737 and d. ca. 1782 Unknown Origin R-Z49.

So here is the corrected chart. Yes you do have a close match with the Langley men 570 to 660 years ago

5250

I went back and edited my earlier post to correct my error.

kinman
07-20-2015, 03:31 AM
Thanks,
That's great. 600 years sounds about right for my split with Langley in England. But I suspect that I might be even closer to some matches with the Maynor/Maner family Project at FTDNA, possibly even as recent as 340 years ago in colonial Virginia. But that presently is just an educated guess.
---------------Ken

MitchellSince1893
07-20-2015, 03:49 AM
I did a quick check in the U152 project and found only one other close match.

Sainte Marie O'Neill Michel-Etienne is a close match to you and the Langley fellows. In fact he's a closer match to you than the Langleys.
[email protected] markers = 5, TMRCA=480 years ago

5255

MitchellSince1893
07-20-2015, 04:02 AM
Thanks,
That's great. 600 years sounds about right for my split with Langley in England. But I suspect that I might be even closer to some matches with the Maynor/Maner family Project at FTDNA, possibly even as recent as 340 years ago in colonial Virginia. But that presently is just an educated guess.
---------------Ken

The Maynor/Maner family are indeed close.
GDs are [email protected] markers, [email protected] markers, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] markers. TMRCA ranges from 360 to 810 years ago.

Also E5562 Zoror R-Z49, is [email protected] markers and 300 years for TMRCA.

kinman
07-20-2015, 04:03 AM
Yes,
I also have Saint Marie O'Neill Michel-Etienne closer to me than the Langleys. However, I think that some of the Maynor/Maner family might be even closer (especially kit number 30136). But again, this is just an educated guess. I still have so much to learn about the statistical probabilities that I can't be sure.

kinman
07-20-2015, 04:13 AM
You beat me to it. I think your date of 360 years ago sounds about right (in colonial Virginia). I even have found a record (about 1670) of a Maynor man punished in Virginia for fornication, which presumably produced an illegimate child (since the mother was also punished). If a Kinman family adopted one of Maynor's illegitimate sons, that would solve the mystery of the name change.

MitchellSince1893
07-20-2015, 04:37 AM
You beat me to it. I think your date of 360 years ago sounds about right (in colonial Virginia). I even have found a record (about 1670) of a Maynor man punished in Virginia for fornication, which presumably produced an illegimate child (since the mother was also punished). If a Kinman family adopted one of Maynor's illegitimate sons, that would solve the mystery of the name change.

Did you see the comment in post 24 about you close Zoror surname match?

E5562 Zoror R-Z49, is [email protected] markers and 300 years for TMRCA.

kinman
07-20-2015, 04:58 AM
Yes, I saw it. But I believe that I am probably closer to Maynor (kit number 30136) because we share DYS570=19 to the exclusion of Zoror. And Zoror also has the less derived value of 406S1=11, while I share with Maynor (and Langley) the very rare DYS406S1=12.

kinman
07-20-2015, 08:32 PM
I did a quick check in the U152 project and found only one other close match.

Sainte Marie O'Neill Michel-Etienne is a close match to you and the Langley fellows. In fact he's a closer match to you than the Langleys.
[email protected] markers = 5, TMRCA=480 years ago

5255
---------------------------------------------------------
By the way, Zoror and Sainte Marie O'Neill Michel-Etienne are the same kit (Zoror is the descendant's name and the other is the ancestor's name). The [email protected] markers is indeed 5, so a TMRCA of 480 years ago would be valid. I'm not sure how you then got Zoror (the same kit) with [email protected] of only 3 (and TMRCA 300 years). Perhaps due to a couple of incorrect STR values in one of the FTDNA databases. Anyway, 480 years for Zoror sounds about right, with Langleys further back at about 600 years, and 360 years for my closest match (Maynor), so your TMRCA dates seem to be pretty accurate.

I believe that closest Maynor match is kit 30136, but I need to recheck on that. My common ancestor with that Maynor is probably John Maynor (Maynard), who was perhaps born about 1650 (365 years ago) and was convicted of fornication in Virginia about 1670. If the resulting child was a son (or he had other illegitimate sons), the son could be grandfather (or great grandfather) of my John Kinman (born ca. 1738 near Philadelphia). And there were Kinmans living in between (in Maryland) about 1710. The timing is perfect.

kinman
07-22-2015, 02:15 AM
Quick update,
John Maynor Sr. (b. ca. 1650) apparently had his first legitimate son (John Maynor Jr.) about 1676. Since his conviction was in 1670, perhaps he sowed his wild oats from about 1667 to 1674, and then got married about 1675 and started producing legitimate descendants (who moved south into North Carolina, while at least one illegitimate son probably ended up going in the opposite direction to Maryland).
Anyway, now I need to attempt to figure out where in England the Langley to Maynor (Maynard?) name change occurred (either by adoption or illegitimacy). That might have happened about the early part of the 1500s.
-----------Ken

kinman
07-24-2015, 03:20 AM
Another update:
I have found two more members of the Langley-Zoror-Maynor-Kinman group. It is two members of the Stallings family (Group K in the Sterling family Project at FTDNA). Neither of them appears to have been tested at FTDNA. Not sure, but I suspect that they branched off between the Langley and Maynor families, perhaps about 500-600 years ago.

And I also have a sneaking suspicion that they may be related to Edward Stallion (a.k.a. Stallins/Stallyon/Sterling/Stanley) who was born in Great Missenden, Buckinghamshire about 1623 (and settled in Connecticut). But he unfortunately left no male descendant lines that can be tested. Darn it.

Cernunnos
09-25-2015, 03:57 PM
Hi Ken,

I'm Scott Bendell with ancestor (John David Bendell). While I don't have a huge amount of information to contribute..I have to say your theory sounds pretty reasonable and what I've conjectured although I am not the best researcher. There is a 'Bendell' town name in England and the earliest origins of the name seem to go back to Germany. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find where John David Bendell came from. The next few generations or so after him ended up in Ohio, USA from what I have been speculating was either England or Germany. If you have any questions that may help let me know. Thanks for your hyptothesis- Scott Bendell

kinman
09-25-2015, 07:48 PM
Hi Scott,
I suspect that the Bendells in England may have arisen independently of the Bendells of France and Germany, and therefore probably not closely related. Therefore, my best bet is that your Bendells probably came directly from France or Germany (or maybe Switzerland?).
I never did figure out in which of the colonies your immigrant ancestor first settled (perhaps Pennsylvania?). I remember finding that a John D. Bendell was made a postmaster in Ohio (Jefferson County if I recall correctly).
------------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------


Hi Ken,

I'm Scott Bendell with ancestor (John David Bendell). While I don't have a huge amount of information to contribute..I have to say your theory sounds pretty reasonable and what I've conjectured although I am not the best researcher. There is a 'Bendell' town name in England and the earliest origins of the name seem to go back to Germany. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find where John David Bendell came from. The next few generations or so after him ended up in Ohio, USA from what I have been speculating was either England or Germany. If you have any questions that may help let me know. Thanks for your hyptothesis- Scott Bendell

kinman
09-26-2015, 02:25 AM
I've been looking again at the distribution of R-Z142, and the total lack of its presence in Germany (at least so far), makes me somewhat skeptical that Scott Bendell's ancestors came from Germany. I would tend to concentrate on France (especially Alsace-Lorraine) and perhaps Switzerland. Even the Roelofs line in the Netherlands may have been from France if they were Huguenots (who fled in large numbers from France to Netherlands). As I recall that was after the Edict of Nantes, but I have forgotten the year. And I still believe that most of the Z142 men who did go to England probably accompanied William the Conqueror in 1066, and that they settled mostly in southern England (Buckinghamshire, Devonshire, and London are of particular interest). As always, more data will make things clearer in the future.
-------------------Ken

Cernunnos
09-30-2015, 07:57 PM
Hi Scott,
I suspect that the Bendells in England may have arisen independently of the Bendells of France and Germany, and therefore probably not closely related. Therefore, my best bet is that your Bendells probably came directly from France or Germany (or maybe Switzerland?).
I never did figure out in which of the colonies your immigrant ancestor first settled (perhaps Pennsylvania?). I remember finding that a John D. Bendell was made a postmaster in Ohio (Jefferson County if I recall correctly).
------------Ken
------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ken,

Thanks for the reply. Yes you are correct that John D Bendell was a postmaster. And after extensive research I still have yet to find out where he was born or from what country my Bendell line came over from. I would guess the colony that they did end up in would be Pennsylvania as Pennsylvania seems to come up in some of my research and the proximity of his burial site seems to be in Martins Ferry, Belmont county Ohio which borders Pennsylvania. Any suggestions of where to research where they may have come over from? Thanks for your help..Scott

kinman
10-01-2015, 02:23 AM
Hi Scott,
Have you found your John Bendell in any census records?
--------Ken

Cernunnos
10-05-2015, 10:10 PM
Hey Ken, Yea, actually thanks to your suggestion I just found a census under John Bendell's son 'Edgar T Bendell' that John David was born in Kentucky..if that is accurate. Maybe they happen to be travelling at the time or something. That's quite a surprise..anyhow doesn't seem like any closer to finding out where the Bendell line came from. I wish I knew because maybe it would put some more pieces together to support your hypothesis. Thanks again, sorry to bore other people with this topic. Thanks-Scott

kinman
10-06-2015, 12:54 AM
If John David Bendell was born in Kentucky and then moved to Ohio, that could probably indicate his father came from the South (Virginia, the Carolinas, or even Georgia). I would guess Virginia or North Carolina would be most likely. If so, that would probably make an origin from Germany less likely. But those are just educated guesses that could turn out to be wrong. The immigrant ancestor could have been a German coming through Maryland or Pennsylvania (but the Kentucky connection just seems to now make that seem less likely to me).
------Ken


Hey Ken, Yea, actually thanks to your suggestion I just found a census under John Bendell's son 'Edgar T Bendell' that John David was born in Kentucky..if that is accurate. Maybe they happen to be travelling at the time or something. That's quite a surprise..anyhow doesn't seem like any closer to finding out where the Bendell line came from. I wish I knew because maybe it would put some more pieces together to support your hypothesis. Thanks again, sorry to bore other people with this topic. Thanks-Scott

St. Pierre
06-18-2017, 05:54 PM
Hi, I descend from Colin de Saint Pierre who was living in Rouen, Normandy around the mid to late 1500's, his great grandson immigrated to Quebec, Canada in 1664 and 10 generations later is me born and raised in Biddeford, Maine, USA. The family stories were that the St. Pierre's were Vikings from the area of Gouy in Normandy and I tested at 23andMe and was positive for R1b/L2, also Wegene, Gedmatch, Chris Morley haplo all backed that up, well I ran my raw data thru Whit Athey's y haplo predictor and it gave me STR markers and then I manually put them in Nevgen haplogroup predictor and all the different R1b tools all came back as 95-100% probability as R1b-U152-L2-Z49-Z142-FGC22963. Also the St. Pierre name was the original name and paternal ancestors of the noble Bunbury family of Cheshire, England and the Bunbury's legend is that the St. Pierre's were of high distinction in Normandy and their castles were in the area of St. Lo and that it was a younger son of the family that came over to England with Hugh Lupus who was the nephew of William the Conqueror and the 1st Earl of Chester. Lately I've read that U152 is most likely descended from the Cimbri Celts, so was just wondering with what I've told you what your thoughts are? Sorry for the length just always trying to learn more. Thanks

Adam R. St. Pierre

kinman
06-19-2017, 02:45 PM
Hi Adam,
I already responded to you on the other thread. If you have STR results, feel free to post them, and perhaps we can find your closest match. Certain SNP mutations can also help in finding a match.
-----------------Ken
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi, I descend from Colin de Saint Pierre who was living in Rouen, Normandy around the mid to late 1500's, his great grandson immigrated to Quebec, Canada in 1664 and 10 generations later is me born and raised in Biddeford, Maine, USA. The family stories were that the St. Pierre's were Vikings from the area of Gouy in Normandy and I tested at 23andMe and was positive for R1b/L2, also Wegene, Gedmatch, Chris Morley haplo all backed that up, well I ran my raw data thru Whit Athey's y haplo predictor and it gave me STR markers and then I manually put them in Nevgen haplogroup predictor and all the different R1b tools all came back as 95-100% probability as R1b-U152-L2-Z49-Z142-FGC22963. Also the St. Pierre name was the original name and paternal ancestors of the noble Bunbury family of Cheshire, England and the Bunbury's legend is that the St. Pierre's were of high distinction in Normandy and their castles were in the area of St. Lo and that it was a younger son of the family that came over to England with Hugh Lupus who was the nephew of William the Conqueror and the 1st Earl of Chester. Lately I've read that U152 is most likely descended from the Cimbri Celts, so was just wondering with what I've told you what your thoughts are? Sorry for the length just always trying to learn more. Thanks

Adam R. St. Pierre

St. Pierre
06-19-2017, 03:06 PM
thanks Kinman, didn't see your other post but will post my SNP's and the STR's Whit Athey's tool gave me either later today or tomorrow.