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razyn
07-19-2015, 02:07 PM
Within the still quite large group that is DF27+ but Z195- [aka ZZ12+], there is a somewhat elusive subgroup marked by Z2552+. This mutation is apparently unread by the BigY; and given that DF27 itself is also unread by most tests, its bearers start with at least two strikes against them. If one takes into account the more problematic but very useful ZZ series of SNPs, Z2552 is also below ZZ12 and ZZ19; that might mean the metaphorical count is holding at two strikes, with two subsequent foul balls.

Below Z2552, however, there are known subclades whose evidence may be seen in BigY results. This forum has previously had threads or posts about two of them, L617 and DF81. The latter is the more active thread, and a couple of days ago I added a note there about a newly discovered and named SNP, YP4295. I found that in the shared novel variants of five BigY testers, three of whom were already DF27 project members (and a fourth has since joined). I checked with Vladimir Tagankin at YFull, who confirmed that it was present in only one sample in their database -- that one being a Colombian in the 1000 Genomes project (HG01121) who was already present on the YFull tree, as well as on Alex Williamson's big tree, as Z2552*.

I don't know that there is any need to merge the old threads, just because those brother SNPs share a parent (Z2552). Anyway, for reference, here is the 2013 L617 thread (i.e., post): http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1114-L617-%28DF27-gt-L617%29

And here is the 2013 DF81 thread, a little more active: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1089-DF81-%28DF27-gt-DF81%29

In post #14 of the latter thread, Chris Corner (who has a very active Rox2 site, but that lies outside Z2552) mentioned another SNP, Z15001. (I have a separate note that that mutation is at 23890531, T to A. I think I got that from the handy Mutations Index on Alex Williamson's Big Tree.) I don't believe we have a project member in whom it has been identified -- unless that happened at YSEQ or BritainsDNA, and is below my radar. As far as I am now aware, Z15001 might mark a fourth distinct subclade of Z2552, unless somebody finds that mutation in an L617, DF81 or YP4295 sample.

I did some minimal searching for Z2552. An "advanced" SNP test for it is on the FTDNA menu, so I assume it does yield to Sanger sequencing. But according to the reports available to me as an admin of the DF27 project, no member has either a pending or a completed order for the test. It appears to be an old, robust clade, with a lot of variance in each of its known subclades. Only about a hundred examples of DF27+, Z195- have had BigY tests, and the new YP4295 SNP was found in five of them. Counting those in the previously identified (and better-known) L617 and DF81 groups, over a dozen are Z2552+. People who remain DF27** and think they have tried everything (one SNP at a time) might want to try Z2552.

John Marsh
07-20-2015, 08:44 AM
razyn,

Thanks for starting this thread on Z2552. As you suggest, there may be more to Z2552 than we realize, the problem being it is not included in most standard tests like BigY, and it is so old that you can't predict it from Haplotype. I have been encouraging others to test Z2552, but it is so difficult to predict from haplotype, we need a few pioneers to test Z2552 to get a feel for just how wide spread it is. As you have shown, new subclades are coming to light below Z2552, and there may be many more as yet undiscovered. I have plans to test more Iberians for L617, but will start by testing them for Z2552, as catches a much wider section of DF27.

Someone did age estimates of DF27 subclades a while ago, and as I recall, L617 came up with the oldest age estimate. Given that Z2552 is older than L617, Z2552 must be amongst the oldest known SNPs below DF27. You indicated that Z2552 was below ZZ12+, but I believed L617 was ZZ12-. I have been searching my records to try and find some past discussion on this, but have not found it just yet. I will keep looking!

I am DF27+>Z2552+>L617+>FGC14951+. I have tested BigY and YElite, so should have ZZ12 results somewhere. Also I know of 4 L617s who have tested YElite, and about a dozen FGC14951s who have tested BigY, so we are starting to see some structure below K617. I have some information at http://www.kin.marshdna.com/DNAresultsL617.htm .

Some have assumed DF27 may have first occurred in Iberia. With Z2552 it appears a near certainty that it occurred in Iberia from what I have seen so far. It is almost a certainty that L617 first occurred in Iberia also, and there are a half dozen SNPs grouped with L617 defining that subclade. These SNPs grouped with L617 are...
8466862 G>A (L617+)
15407374 C>T (FGC14936+)
15092671 G>A (unnamed)
7506827 C>T (FGC14934+)
9321347 T>C (FGC14935+)
23332817 T>C (unnamed)
23387829 T>A (FGC14937+)

If some of these are above L617 but below Z2552, they may show up in some of the other Z2552 subclades. I think that the ones tested in BigY don't show up in DF81, but a couple are not tested in BigY, only in YElite. Although I have supported BigY strongly to date to see the General SNP landscape, now that we can see the broad picture, I am tending to recommend YElite as a preference for those that can afford it. So any fence sitters thinking of a more comprehensive Y test, give serious consideration to YElite.

FGC14951 has been so far confirmed in 4 distinct family groups in England, perhaps separated near 3,000 years ago, but not yet found elsewhere, so the possibility is FGC14951 denotes a single ancestor who founded a branch of L617 in the British Isles perhaps near 3,000 years ago.

There are two lines of L617 known in Iberia.

There is a believed L617 in NETHERLANDS, which may trace back to France, or even Brittany earlier, so possibly even Briton earlier still. I am currently trying to get him tested for FGC14951.

This thread on Z2552 is timely. It is something which needs to be tested more.

John Marsh

razyn
07-22-2015, 08:44 PM
I added a couple of BigY-tested DF81 kits to group Gb today, 39078 and 343710. Also got the .vcf files of both, so perhaps Alex can update the Big Tree in a column that has only had 1000 Genomes samples (lower resolution than BigY). Stay tuned*.

In the meantime, the variance keeps getting higher every time a new person joins -- none of these Z2552 guys really look much alike, except for two with the same surname. Also it's beginning to appear (at least, to me) as if each of the three known clades has a branch that is primarily Iberian (in the case of DF81, Basque), and a branch that is not. There will be differences of opinion about what that might mean, held by those who do or don't subscribe to the "Celtic from the West" theory. Not to mention those who do or don't believe that more SNPs = older subclade.


*In case your radio doesn't have a button set to tune one of the channels that are carrying this program, try these two. Both sites are very nimble, and coincidentally have been updated today. That process takes a little longer at YFull (where the whole tree is updated at once), but still occurs quite frequently:

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=641&star=false
http://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2552/

John Marsh
08-28-2015, 06:41 AM
The new R1b backbone test has been turning up more L617s. In the last few days a couple more from England, and one tracing to Poland. Currently there are the following known branches each being possibly as much as 3,000 years old....

1) Iberia (2 surnames, possibly related 1,500 years ago)
2) England (5 distict branches related about 3,000 years ago, quite a few different surnames in each branch)
3) France (1 surname, in France about 1,000 years ago, currently living Netherlands)
4) Poland (1 surname, currently living USA)

Based on the early indications, we should find many more L617s as results start coming in for the new backbone test.

John.

razyn
09-21-2015, 02:01 PM
John Marsh is currently unable to post here, until he recovers his password (it may just be "remembered" on a different computer). In the meantime he has authorized me to cross-post this message that he posted Sept. 18th to a RootsWeb list. There have been a couple of responses, and I'll paste in a link to the archived opening of this conversation in case anyone wants to check it. I won't wrap quotation marks around it, in case someone wants to quote it in a reply -- but the rest of this, apart from a locator url at the end, is from John:
_____________________

There has been recent progress on the L617 tribe since L617 was added to the FTDNA R1b backbone test.

WEB SITE: I have over 40 DNA tested L617s shown at http://www.kin.marshdna.com/DNAresultsL617.htm , and I know of perhaps 60 further DNA tested L617s not on that database yet. I also am aware of many surnames who look from STR haplotypes to possibly be L617. I have been hoping for a L617 project to be approved by FTDNA to get access to project administrator research tools, but approval has not yet been granted. (Sitting here holding my breath!)

BIGY: There is considerable effort being put into testing L617s on BigY, and YElite, and much information has been assembled which is only privately available to L617s who are in contact with me direct at ajmarsh@arrrg.org . The L617s are friendly group, with a number of keen researchers frequently in email contact sharing information and ideas to help each other with L617 exploration. We look forward to contact with new found L617s. I am sure our common L617 ancestor 3,500 years ago would be pleased to know his descendants were still a cohesive family/ tribal group in spite of our wide geographic dispersal.

IBERIA: L617 seems to have likely occurred in Iberia about 3,500 years ago. L617 is found today in Iberia, but has not been much tested there yet.

ENGLAND: Recent findings are a number of L617s amongst DF27s from Cornwall in particular, and surrounding Counties. Early signs are that perhaps as many as 50% of DF27s in Cornwall may be L617. It is also found in Eastern England around Staffordshire, and Cheshire, eg the large Plant family from about 900+ years ago. It looks like there was quite early L617s in the Northumberland area 900+ years ago, eg large de Ogle and De Tindall families, both of which are speculated to have had maternal line links at least to early Anglo-Saxon earls of Northumbria. L617 is also found in Cambridgeshire, but early origin of this line is still unknown. It is thought that some English L617s may stem from bronze or Iron Age Celtic migrations, but some may have arrived separately in later migrant groups, eg Anglo-Saxons, Normans etc.

POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617.

NETHERLANDS, FLANDERS, BELGIUM: Some found in this area.

SEPHARDIC JEWS: Sephardic Jewish DF27s might include L617s. There is a suggestion it is found in Sephardic Jews from Iberia which spread to the Americas and Poland in the past 500 years.

R1b BACKBONE TEST: The new FTDNA R1b backbone test is proving very useful at linking R1bs to their subclades. I recommend that R1bs who are curious about their deeper tribal roots consider the new Backbone test. Or better still, BigY.

COMMENTS ON EXTENT OF L617 TESTING: There has been some testing of L617 in the British Isles, and R1b projects, but many very large geographic projects for different parts of the world have very few tested for L617, so there will be some surprises no doubt when L617 is more widely tested.

WISH LIST: I wish that in their customer database matching FTDNA had an "additional" feature where matches could be searched for moderately recent SNPs like 3,500 year old L617. Perhaps customers could nominate for approval SNPs which have a benefit in being searchable. On STR matching at lower marker numbers at least, matches in my case are mostly unrelated in the past 3,500 years. But if I could search specifically for L617 matches, I would know all were related to me in the past 3,500 years. I have been individually looking through surname and geographic projects for L617, time consuming! I am periodically turning up new L617s, but there has to be a better way of finding needles in haystacks.
_____________________

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2015-09/1442547211

lgmayka
09-21-2015, 06:45 PM
"POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617."
He has 3 cases of L617+ from Poland-Lithuania. His claim that all three are of Sephardic Jewish origin is very weak; and, I suspect, is based partly on his personal belief that L617 began in Iberia. Big Y tests all around would likely settle the matter, but who has the money for that?

John Marsh
09-22-2015, 08:53 AM
He has 3 cases of L617+ from Poland-Lithuania. His claim that all three are of Sephardic Jewish origin is very weak; and, I suspect, is based partly on his personal belief that L617 began in Iberia. Big Y tests all around would likely settle the matter, but who has the money for that?


Laurence,

I have just managed at last to log into Anthrogenica after days of trying, so at last can post directly myself. I appreciate your input into this discussion, as you are the expert on Poland.

Firstly, I have had 4 L617s tested on YElite, and about 15 tested on BigY. We are starting to get some indications on the early SNPs and branching of the L617 subclade. We are not experts yet, but it is hard not to notice repeated signs of links to Iberia. I agree it is possible to construct alternative scenarios to L617 first occurring in Iberia, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to ignore that many independent fragments of information all point to Iberia.

My gut feeling is that Iberia is the most likely origin of L617, and half a dozen other SNPs found in an undivided grouping with L617. The upstream SNP Z2552 shared with DF81 and another subclade is even more strongly indicated to be Iberian. DF81 is strongly linked today to Iberia, and specifically the same area of Iberia which the only L617 with a known geographic location within Iberia is believed to have came from. DF27 the next upstream SNP is widely speculated by persons other than me to have had an Iberian origin, or at very least Iberian early base and spreading point. DF27 was when discovered often described as the Iberian SNP.

I have no reason for wanting L617 to be Iberian, or for wanting some L617 to be Jewish. Only 3 to 5 out of about a 100 Y-DNA tested L617s have hints of Jewish origins. I am just trying to make inferences from the fragments of information as they are revealed. I hope that by putting this hypothesis out for discussion, others might be able to either show me the folly of my speculation, or provide some other clues to investigate.

I have so far received responses off list from 2 individuals with some interesting observations. In response to these contacts I looked up more history of European Jews, and indeed found several historical events consistent with a Sephardic Jewish dispersal of L617 to Poland being possible in some cases. But the majority of L617 does not seem to be Sephardic Jewish. It is possible that some or most of the English lines of L617 had migrated from Iberia to England before Jews even existed.

Of the 3 L617s possibly from Poland/ Lithuania, 2 are definitely from that area in recent times. Of these, one has a surname found in Polish Jews, and the other has a surname the same as a Spanish Town name. The third with a possible Polish link is from Netherlands in the late 1600s, but speculated by those researching that family to possibly have been a Jewish exile from Poland, where that surname is mainly found. None of these families has indicated to me that they are currently Jewish, or were positively known to be Jewish in the distant past. So you suggestion my evidence is very weak might be a valid observation.

But I have been looking at a wider context to try and make inferences. I know of 2 lines of L617 with recent confirmed origins in Iberia. These 2 lines seem from STRs and SNPs to possibly be related about 1500 years ago. One of those lines went to America some time after 1500, and according to family traditions were thought to have been Sephardic Jews.

So whether the Polish L617s had Sephardic Jewish origins or not, we do have indications from family traditions of other L617s that some L617s in Iberia around 500 years ago were Sephardic Jews. I did some research on Jewish history, and found that there was a strong Jewish population in Iberia 500 years ago, and when Persecution of Jews in Spain in 1492, and Portugal in 1497 made life difficult for them then, it seems that Poland, which historically was Pagan rather than Christian, became attractive as a tolerant destination for Jewish exiles.

Compared to other L617s, the purported 3 Polish L617s seem genetically closer (based on STRs) than the large number of L617s found in England. The Polish L617s may have had common ancestor about 2000 years ago, and the 2 with more definite evidence of coming from Poland/ Lithuania appear more closely related.

I am open to suggestions. You I think know at least one of the Polish L617s. Do you have any suggestions yourself on where L617 may have originated, or how and when it got to Poland? Do you think there is any evidence L617 originated in Poland rather than Iberia?

You suggest that BigY testing might answer some of the origin questions. I have already tested 15 L617s on BigY. I would be very keen to test on BigY one of the two L617s with confirmed recent links to Poland/ Lithuania. I can raise some money to contribute towards BigY testing one of these, if they were also able to contribute part of the testing cost. I am not sure BIGY would conclusively prove at this stage either an Iberian or Jewish link 500 years ago, but the more data the better, if we got lucky it just might lead to a break through. As an alternative to BigY, there are relatively new full genome 2 and 4 times coverage tests at FGC which include the Y chromosome. I am looking at starting to use these as a budget test which might suffice in place of BigY in some cases. I say lets work towards testing one of the Polish L617s on BigY, and see if that helps.

John.

John Marsh
10-05-2015, 06:37 AM
NEW R-L617 PROJECT AT FTDNA: John Marsh Project Administrator- ajmarsh@arrrg.org
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l617/about

I have recently started a R-L617 project at FTDNA. I am currently spreading the word amongst L617s to get them to join the project. As a starting point we have a selection of the main L617 subclade branches joined to the project. I hope all L617s will join the project, as having the data in one place helps us analyse the subclade, ie working out branch modals, branch SNPs etc.

I did a quick count, and I am aware of 80 Y-DNA STR tested persons who have also tested L617+, or have a close STR matching Y-DNA relative who has tested L617+. Many of the L617s stem from large 3 families descended from Plant, Tindall and Ogle living about 800 years ago in England. So although L617 is perceived as being a small subclade, there are quite a few members living today.

Since the project started a few days ago, I have been comparing haplotypes, novel variants and SNPs of the first few L617s to join the project. My impression is that L617 is more complex that I thought. Some subgroups which I presumed to be more closely related, seem to in fact have very early common ancestors, perhaps 3,000 or more years ago. Prior to about 3,000 years ago, the SNP FGC14951 defines a branch point, but below that there currently seems quite a few different lines with no common ancestor in the past 3,000 years. Then about 1000 years ago, the various separate lines start branching rapidly again.

There are a few hints about origin locations and migration events, but let's see what the DNA has to say. Some of my initial impressions from STRs have been disproved by SNPs.

I would welcome any inquiries at ajmarsh@arrrg.org.

John Marsh.

razyn
12-03-2015, 06:03 AM
I have recently started a R-L617 project at FTDNA.
In case you don't check it daily or something, one of your guys got his BigY today, 248229. His best match is 126811 (also already a member), and they seem uniquely to share what may be a new subclade-defining SNP, 22076669, C to T.

John Marsh
12-04-2015, 10:04 AM
In case you don't check it daily or something, one of your guys got his BigY today, 248229. His best match is 126811 (also already a member), and they seem uniquely to share what may be a new subclade-defining SNP, 22076669, C to T.

Razyn,

Thanks for the notification.

This is rather an interesting sub branch of L617, FGC14951. It links a Cambridgeshire family with a Cornish family..... Near 3,000 years back in time. We have been finding a lot of L617 tracing to Cornwall lately. For several years we have been speculating L617 may have entered England about 3,000 years ago looking for tin in the Bronze Age. The finding of lots of L617 in Cornwall is therefore interesting. Not conclusive proof of tin seekers, but at least consistent with the tin theory.

We still await several more results for L617s, including 2 BigYs, and a FGC14951 test. So far all English L617s conclusively tested for FGC14951 are positive, and all L617s tracing to Iberia, Lithuania/ Poland are negative. We have one ambiguous FGC14951 result from England which we are currently testing as an individual marker test.

We have one FGC14951+ from Netherlands, but that line was speculated to have originally been from Flanders, and perhaps 900 years ago from Brittany. Brittany is just across the ditch from Cornwall, with historical population exchanges, so it is at least a chance the Netherlands FGC14951+ traces back to England. The early

Purickis_Lithuania
09-20-2018, 03:55 AM
Hi all, I'm the L-617 that John is referring to from Lithuania. I believe L-617 is less than 1% in Lithuania currently. With R1b not common in Eastern Europe I'm curious how 'we' ended up there. We are not Jewish that I know of. Family settled along the Nemunas River near Kaunas - very old settlement. Family has been there a very long time. In terms of very recent migration, my current theory is some distant relation to the Romanovs who were/are R-M269. My family has a noble line. Romanovs had a Lithuanian branch of the family (Zubov). I have pretty close geni tree matches to both of them through marriages. Don't know if they are blood relation but I think it's likely there is a common ancestor. I am missing a lot of my ancestry in geni. R-M269 migration in their case is from ancient Germany. The Tolstoys are related to the Romanovs. Tolstoy family was founded by a German Knight. They are a close geni tree match to me as well. Probably something to it but theory at this point.

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 09:35 PM
My father's sample is added on YFull Tree as L617* (quite surprising because I expected it under M225):

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2552/

The analysis is finished. We are just waiting for TMRCA ("Age estimation in progress. This may take some time").

Some Czech guy also joined recently, so now there are at least two Z2552 samples from Slavic countries:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP4295*/

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 09:40 PM
POLAND & LITHUANIA: Another recent indication is that L617s may have been present in Sephardic Jews exiled from Iberia to Poland about 500 years ago. This indicates more DF27 lines in the Poland Lithuanian area may turn out being L617.

My father scored "100% East Euro" on Family Finder, although all other tests give him more "Central Euro" results - but that is not surprising considering he comes from the borderland of Wielkopolska and Lower Silesia. Other people in the region have similar results.

So far my dad has not scored any Jewish on commercial tests. Only on GEDmatch 2% "Near_Eastern" in Eurogenes K36, but I actually doubt that it is informative (if you want I can test relatives to try to check if this admix is from grandfather's or grandmother's side).

My dad's Eurogenes K36 (from FTDNA raw data):

Basque 0.29
Central_African 0.05
Central_Euro 10.15
East_Balkan 8.33
East_Central_Euro 19.23
Eastern_Euro 13.7
Fennoscandian 11.05
French 5.28
Iberian 6.23
Italian 3.34
Near_Eastern 1.93
North_Atlantic 9.1
North_Sea 10.51
Volga-Ural 0.36
West_Caucasian 0.24
West_Med 0.17

Generations tend to be long in our family. I was born in the 90s, my father was born in the 50s, and his father (my grandfather) was born in 1904. But since I was not really conducting any proper genealogical research so far (I'm planning to do it), I have managed to trace my direct paternal line only back to the early 1800s, in the same region (Wielkopolska). Recently during a family meeting I talked to my uncle (my father's brother) and he claims that our direct paternal lineage has roots in Wielkopolska region going back at least 400-500 years ago. He also mentioned two other families or "clans" which have been - supposedly - closely associated with our family, and frequently intermarried in the past.

Wielkopolska - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland

My dad is the youngest of 5 brothers including 2 half-brothers (father in common with one, mother with the other one).

At this point my opinion is that Z2552 could actually originate somewhere around Poland and Czech Republic?

Or perhaps we are the "remnants" of Iron Age Celtic groups which lived here?

=====

When it comes to STR matches - so far 100% of my and my father's STR matches are British (mainly Scottish).

However, our STR matches did not buy R1b SNP Packs. They are only listed as R1b-M269, nothing downstream.

It would be nice if they buy SNP Packs just to check if they are Z2552 or not.

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 10:13 PM
We are not Jewish that I know of.

Same in my case, not aware of anything Jewish.

We have the same haplogroup. According to YFull, my father is L617* (see the POL [PL-WP] sample).

We have a very typically Polish Slavic "-ski" surname.

As far as I know, there is also one "-ski" guy (but with a different surname) from Lithuania with L617:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_in_Lithuania#History

Are you in contact with this other Lithuanian?

Webb
12-02-2018, 10:27 PM
Tomenable, please see my response to Michal here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1370-What-about-the-all-of-the-R1b-in-the-Basques/page12

Thread #112. If the age estimation is correct, L617 being formed around 247AD, and the small size of this block, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is indicative of Germanic Migrations.

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 10:36 PM
Tomenable, please see my response to Michal here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1370-What-about-the-all-of-the-R1b-in-the-Basques/page12

Thread #112. If the age estimation is correct, L617 being formed around 247AD, and the small size of this block, I wouldn’t be surprised if it is indicative of Germanic Migrations.

This map is most likely a bit outdated by now because I made it back in 2016.

It shows the distribution of L617 based on the samples that we had back then:

http://i.imgur.com/87kvu5Y.png

I noticed a correlation with ethnonym Lugians (tribes known as "Lugians" were recorded in Poland, Britain and Iberia):

http://i.imgur.com/91eYtUe.png

Lugians in Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii

Lugians in Britain: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/_Texts/Ptolemy/2/2*.html

Lugians in Iberia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astures#Origins

We also have toponyms:

Lugidunon / Lugidunum (= somewhere in ancient Poland)
Luguvalium (= Carlisle in Cumbria, in northern England)
Lugudunum / Lugdunum (= Lyon, in Rhône-Alpes, France)
Lugdunum Batavorum (= Leiden, in Zuid-Holland, the Netherlands)
Lugdunum Convenarum (= Saint-Bertrand-de-Comminges)

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 10:42 PM
According to this book, "Vistula Amne Discreta. Greek and Latin sources to the oldest history of Poland":

https://ecsmedia.pl/c/vistula-amne-discreta-w-iext46142928.jpg

^^^
Soon after the name "Lugians" disappeared from Roman sources, the name "Vandals" appeared in the same area.

Both Lugians and Vandals were federations of many tribes (there were Lugian tribes and Vandalic tribes). My opinion is that the name changed because the leadership changed (Vandals replaced Lugians as the dominant ethnic group within that federation).

The tribal federation in question most likely encompassed the same area as the archeological Przeworsk culture.

=====

These guys made a good job with researching Lugians (this is just a mod to a game, but created by historians):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?413770-Preview-The-Lugiones

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 10:53 PM
Discussion (in Polish) about Iron Age Poland including Lugians, Vandals, Przeworsk culture, etc. (with some maps):

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=170690

Note that locations of many tribes are speculative:

https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png

About Celtic presence in the territory of Poland:

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/bastarnae-poland/

"Archaeologically confirmed areas of Celtic settlement in Poland (according to data published before November 2014)":

https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/a-a-a-poland.jpg

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/tag/celtic-settlements-poland/

https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/map-s-poland.jpg

https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/the-celts-in-poland/

https://balkancelts.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/s-poland.jpg

DNA testing of Iron Age samples is in progress:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15977-2000-year-old-Iron-Age-necropolis-in-Poland

^^^ Thread about 2000 year old cemeteries.

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 10:55 PM
I wouldn’t be surprised if it is indicative of Germanic Migrations.

It could expand in Germanic migrations, but most likely was originally Celtic and later some carriers of L617 could be Germanized.

P312 is generally not Germanic (U106 is Germanic) and the highest concentration of L617 within Britain is in Cornwall, AFAIK.

As of December 2016, there were at least seven families from Cornwall with L617 - more than in any other region of Britain.

=====

As for Sephardic Jews - they are not of native Iberian origin, they came to Iberia from Italy and Eastern Mediterranean.

So even if some Sephardic Jew was L617, it had to be someone descended from Native Iberian converts to Judaism.

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 11:10 PM
I believe L-617 is less than 1% in Lithuania currently.

It is less than 1% in every single country. We need to make more effort to increase our numbers. ;)


With R1b not common in Eastern Europe I'm curious how 'we' ended up there.

R1b is ca. 1/5 of Poles according to Myres 2010, the 2nd most common haplogroup in Poland after R1a (which is ~50%):

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15217-West-Slavic-R1b

I believe that the frequency of R1b in Poland before the Migration Period had to be higher, and R1a was likely much lower.

Before the Migration Period = before year 400 AD.

If we go back even further - to the Early Bronze Age - then Western Europe had 0% of R1b. Check for example Britain:

https://i.imgur.com/TsNYJbw.png

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 11:19 PM
All of R1b-M269 originally came from the Steppes of Eastern Europe. Question is only when and how.

We might be the "remnants" of R1b which was native and more common here before R1a invaded us. ;)

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 11:33 PM
distant relation to the Romanovs who were/are R-M269

The Romanovs are L617, really ??? If they are some other branch of M269, then we are not related (at least not after the Bronze Age).

What about the Piast dynasty of Poland? Bones of two Mazovian Piasts from the 1500s were tested R1b.

They are late Piasts so there could be NPEs. But I joined the FTDNA Piast Dynasty Project just in case.

Webb
12-02-2018, 11:34 PM
It could expand in Germanic migrations, but most likely was originally Celtic and later some carriers of L617 could be Germanized.

P312 is generally not Germanic (U106 is Germanic) and the highest concentration of L617 within Britain is in Cornwall, AFAIK.

As of December 2016, there were at least seven families from Cornwall with L617 - more than in any other region of Britain.

=====

As for Sephardic Jews - they are not of native Iberian origin, they came to Iberia from Italy and Eastern Mediterranean.

So even if some Sephardic Jew was L617, it had to be someone descended from Native Iberian converts to Judaism.

I don’t think DF27 was originally Germanic either. I think some of it was in Spain early and some late. But because of the Quedlinburg DF27 sample, I think it was in Germany before Spain, which means DF27 could have been present in any movement out of Germany between Bell Beaker and now. I think the formation date of L617 is a must to hash out in order to figure out the connections between the various kits. If it is as old as Z2552, then from the Urnfield to Hallstatt would be likely. If 247AD, then some sort of German Migration period seems plausible.

Tomenable
12-02-2018, 11:41 PM
However, we do not have any Germans with confirmed L617, to my knowledge. L617 seems common in Iberia, Britain, perhaps Belgium, and Poland-Lithuania. In the middle there is a huge L617-free gap in the area of what is now Germany.

And we can't blame it on too few testers because DNA tests are quite popular in Germany (especially MyHeritage, I think).

Low number of L617 from France can be blamed on scarcity of people who test.

razyn
12-03-2018, 12:03 AM
As for Sephardic Jews - they are not of native Iberian origin, they came to Iberia from Italy and Eastern Mediterranean.

So even if some Sephardic Jew was L617, it had to be someone descended from Native Iberian converts to Judaism.

To the extent that I disagree (not very significantly), mostly it's with an expression such as "had to be" when one is speculating. Anyway, who departed Iberia around 1492 has almost nothing to do with what was going on genetically around 300 AD (such as the spawning of the first Mr. L617 -- somewhere). When and where some Central/East Europeans of today might have acquired that mutation, or from whom, or while adhering to what branch of the larger Judaeo-Christian religious tradition, is still unknown. I think some people who had to leave Iberia 500 years ago were L617, by that time -- and they didn't all go to Brazil. But the east-to-west migration and branching within DF27 that's more apparent happened more like 2500 BC, not between 300 and 1500 AD.

I wouldn't be surprised if Webb's guess (Germanic migrations) is closer to what actually scrambled these eggs. But IIRC he has a thing for Visigoths; so I also wouldn't be surprised if this migration theory is just another instance of that interest.

If enough guesses are made, one of them may turn out to be right.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 12:03 AM
Razyn and Purickis,

I sent you a private message related to the possible connection between Polish and Lithuanian branches of L617.

I sent you a PM about it because I prefer not to publish my surname publicly here.

I know that my surname exists also among ethnic Poles from what is now Belarus (but before WW2 was Poland).

This family is not closely related, but perhaps many centuries ago there was a connection and they might be L617.

Poland-Lithuania were united for as long as England and Scotland, and many Polish families migrated to Lithuania.

=====

I recommend you this extremely interesting interview with prof. Robert Frost about Poland, Lithuania and Scotland:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTrbR4stbhY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKV64izfL78

^^^
I would really like to know if my numerous Scottish matches based on STR markers are also positive for L617 SNP.

About Polish-Scottish connections (but my surname doesn't appear to be of Scottish or any other Non-Slavic origin):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wllE3kVhzIQ


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1ksd2pHHQw

ADW_1981
12-03-2018, 12:23 AM
All of R1b-M269 originally came from the Steppes of Eastern Europe. Question is only when and how.

We might be the "remnants" of R1b which was native and more common here before R1a invaded us. ;)

From an R1 perspective, it looks like Poland was R1a(CWC)>R1b(BB)>R1a(local+eastern) again.

L617 is just one leaf among many under DF27+ who have a similar west to east distribution. It could be that the late bronze age brought warriors and traders of metals from SW to NE that seems to match the distribution of many DF27 splits. However, the origin of DF27 itself could be somewhere like north eastern France which may not be all that far fetched. Take for instance the Tollense battle which has at least one male pegged as plotting close to modern French Basques, no doubt indicating a non-local origin south west of the battle, and a possible candidate for a DF27+ male, all the way back in 1000BC. (Local lines of R1b in northern Germany were probably R1b-L238, U106 among others)

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 12:29 AM
From an R1 perspective, it looks like Poland was R1a(CWC)>R1b(BB)>R1a(local+eastern) again.

Actually I'm not sure if R1a is older in Poland than R1b. For example we have very old R1b from Samborzec Beakers:

Samborzec (Southern Poland) ca. 2800-2200 BC, Bell Beaker, 3 samples of R1b-M269 (what subclades could it be?):

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/06/samborzec-beakers-from-maopolska-poland.html

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_25.html

Only one sample has relatively high coverage:

Bell Beaker Poland Samborzec [I4253 / RISE1124 / grave no. 13], M, 2571-2208 BCE 452974 SNPs, R1b1a1a2

====

As for Iron Age Poland, things do not look good for R1b so far, because preliminary results indicate mostly I1-M253:

http://i.imgur.com/GSuhSG5.png

^^^
As you can see out of 16 Iron Age (likely Germanic?) individuals tested so far 8 (50%) were I1 and only 1 was R1b.

And here something about their autosomal DNA:

https://i.postimg.cc/VN9xkBV3/Screenshot_20180929-073310_Drive.jpg

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 12:38 AM
One problem is that in Iron Age Poland inhabitants used different (biritual) burial practices.

Some burials were inhumations (skeletal) but others, maybe the majority, were cremations.

Obviously with current technology we can only obtain DNA samples from skeletal burials.

Perhaps frequencies of haplogroups were different among groups which cremated their dead.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 12:52 AM
Razyn, how many Sephardic Jews ended up in Poland-Lithuania, in your estimation?

I know that some came to Poland but mostly to South-Eastern Poland, not really to my region and not to Lithuania.


I think some people who had to leave Iberia 500 years ago were L617, by that time -- and they didn't all go to Brazil. But the east-to-west migration and branching within DF27 that's more apparent happened more like 2500 BC, not between 300 and 1500 AD.

I was told that L617 family from Mexico (N45914) has a surname which is probably of Basque or Castilian origin, rather than Sephardic. But indeed there is also a theory that their surname is Sephardic. Maybe these are several families of different origins with the same surname?

It is a patronymic surname, so it can have many unrelated origins, I guess.

Why is this Mexican guy not on YFull, by the way? Could you maybe contact him and ask him to upload his sample to YFull?


I wouldn't be surprised if Webb's guess (Germanic migrations) is closer to what actually scrambled these eggs. But IIRC he has a thing for Visigoths; so I also wouldn't be surprised if this migration theory is just another instance of that interest.

If Webb has a thing for Visigoths then he will probably like this recent theory about the English ethnogenesis:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/an-astonishing-article-on-the-origin-of-the-english.637524/

I admit that it is a fringe theory but the user who posted it in the link above (Pangur Ban) has PhD in history.

But even if L617 was connected with Germanic Migrations, it could as well be related to the Vandals, not Goths.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 12:57 AM
The Queen of Spain has the same surname as this Mexican L617:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Letizia_of_Spain

Her recent ancestry is from Asturias and Galicia mostly.

ADW_1981
12-03-2018, 01:12 AM
One problem is that in Iron Age Poland inhabitants used different (biritual) burial practices.

Some burials were inhumations (skeletal) but others, maybe the majority, were cremations.

Obviously with current technology we can only obtain DNA samples from skeletal burials.

Perhaps frequencies of haplogroups were different among groups which cremated their dead.

Isn't CWC in Germany typically R1a and older than BB? Poland should be included through extrapolation here, especially if CWC arrived from the east ;)

The I1 + G2 of Wielbark are a little bizarre, since we know that R1a/R1b/I1 were in Bronze Age Scandinavia already, perhaps eastern Sweden harboured more I1 lineages than elsewhere and it's just this specific sample that is a tad skewed.

I suggest you submit your L617+ sample to Ytree for a second estimate.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 01:16 AM
around 300 AD (such as the spawning of the first Mr. L617 -- somewhere)

If L617 is indeed so young, then Mr. L617 most likely lived somewhere close to me.

After all weren't ancestors of the Visigoths and Vandals living in Poland in 300 AD?:

=====

Check "Barbarian Tsunami" (many believe that a lot of those barbarians came from lands along the Vistula River):

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/userfiles/pl/Badania/Publikacje/tsunamiinternetzokladka.pdf - in English

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/ - in English

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 01:31 AM
The I1 + G2 of Wielbark are a little bizarre, since we know that R1a/R1b/I1 were in Bronze Age Scandinavia already, perhaps eastern Sweden harboured more I1 lineages than elsewhere and it's just this specific sample that is a tad skewed.

Today Western Sweden and the island of Gotland have over 50% frequency of I1-M253:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253

"The haplogroup reaches its peak frequencies in Sweden (52 percent of males in Västra Götaland County)"

^^^ This is western Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4stra_G%C3%B6taland_County

And according to Eupedia:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Gotland: 50% I1, 17.5% R1b, 14.5% R1a - if Goths came from Gotland then 50% of I1 makes sense.


I suggest you submit your L617+ sample to Ytree for a second estimate.

This one?: https://www.ytree.net/

Webb
12-03-2018, 01:35 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Webb's guess (Germanic migrations) is closer to what actually scrambled these eggs. But IIRC he has a thing for Visigoths; so I also wouldn't be surprised if this migration theory is just another instance of that interest.

If enough guesses are made, one of them may turn out to be right.

I gave up my Visigoth notion when I gained my French block mate at FGC23196. I have now shifted my focus to the Franks. I even changed my dog’s name from Alaric to Clovis.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 01:46 AM
I gave up my Visigoth notion when I gained my French block mate at FGC23196. I have now shifted my focus to the Franks. I even changed my dog’s name from Alaric to Clovis.

Better shift your focus to the Vandals / Lugians:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/genealogy/images/d/d6/Germanen_50_n._Chr.png/revision/latest?cb=20071105215719

But Mr. L617 could as well be a Roman soldier helping them against the Suevi (Suebi). :) Check this article:

http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/2018/05/10/first-ever-traces-of-roman-military-presence-in-poland-discovered-by-archaeologists-in-kujawy-region/ - in English

http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news%2C29296%2Carcheolog-mamy-dowody-na-obecnosc-rzymskich-legionistow-na-terenie-polski

^^^
"Based on the writings of Cassius Dio, Emperor Domitian sent 100 cavalry as support for the Lugii in their war against the Suevi. We cannot exclude the possibility that some of discovered items were parts of equipment of those soldiers." - say archaeologists.

=====

Also during Emperor Nero's reign, there was Roman expedition to the Baltic Sea for amber, and they reached the Baltic Sea.

Pliny (XXXVII, 45) wrote:

"There is still living a member of the equestrian order, who was sent thither by Julianus, the manager of the gladiatorial exhibitions for the Emperor Nero, to procure a supply of this article. Traversing the coasts of that country and visiting the various markets there, he brought back amber, in such vast quantities, as to admit of the nets, which are used for protecting the podium against the wild beasts, being studded with amber."

Source: book "Vistula Amne Discreta. Greek and Latin sources to the oldest history of Poland".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Road

Map: https://i.imgur.com/TPPQpPU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/TPPQpPU.jpg

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 02:02 AM
The Vandals marched across France on their way to Iberia:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Vandals_Migration_406-418.png/616px-Vandals_Migration_406-418.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/Vandals_Migration_406-418.png/616px-Vandals_Migration_406-418.png

ADW_1981
12-03-2018, 02:09 AM
Today Western Sweden and the island of Gotland have over 50% frequency of I1-M253:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M253

"The haplogroup reaches its peak frequencies in Sweden (52 percent of males in Västra Götaland County)"

^^^ This is western Sweden: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4stra_G%C3%B6taland_County

And according to Eupedia:

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Gotland: 50% I1, 17.5% R1b, 14.5% R1a - if Goths came from Gotland then 50% of I1 makes sense.



This one?: https://www.ytree.net/

This study had similar frequencies, althought a little lower for the I1 side (45%) https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7058887_Y-chromosome_diversity_in_Sweden_-_A_long-time_perspective

This is also the one who predicted R1b as being the oldest of the bunch in the north. Out of the "big three" north Euro Y haplos, it's likely the youngest and the high STR diversity of R1b is the result of immigrants from all over central and western Europe. I think YDNA from the Tollense battle should answer some questions. It might be that Germanic is the result of the Battle Axe CWC extension (R1a-Z284).

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 02:13 AM
Better shift your focus to the Vandals / Lugians:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/genealogy/images/d/d6/Germanen_50_n._Chr.png/revision/latest?cb=20071105215719

Procopius, "History of the Wars", III, XXII, 13-16 wrote about those Vandals who stayed in their previous homeland:

"(...) Now as for those Vandals who remained in their native land, neither remembrance nor any name of them has been preserved to my time. (...) they were either overpowered by the neighbouring barbarians or they were mingled with them not at all unwillingly and their name gave way to that of their conquerors. Indeed, when the Vandals were conquered at that time by Belisarius, no thought occurred to them to go from there to their ancestral homes. For they were not able to convey themselves suddenly from Libya to Europe, especially as they had no ships at hand, but paid the penalty [2] there for all the wrongs they had done the Romans and especially the Zacynthians. (...)"

But later during the Early Middle Ages, there was still some remembrance, because many sources called Poles Vandals.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 02:19 AM
(...)

But later during the Early Middle Ages, there was still some remembrance, because many sources called Poles Vandals.

For example:

Adam of Bremen wrote the following about West Slavs (in what is now East Germany, Poland and Czechia):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_of_Bremen

"Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis incolitur, qui olim dicti sum Wandali; decies maior esse fertur nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quaia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in partem adiecreris Sclavaniae."

In English:

"Slavia, the largest province of Germania, is inhabited by Winuls [Wends?], who used to be called Vandals. They say that it is larger than our Saxony, especially if we include to Slavia also Bohemians and Polans on the other side of the Oder, who are no different in language or custom."

Gerhard of Augsburg in his "Miracula Sancti Oudalrici" (written in 983-993) referred to Mieszko I of Poland as "dux Wandalorum, Misico nomine" (in English: "duke of the Vandals, called Misico"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mieszko_I_of_Poland

In general in multiple Early Medieval sources, the name Poles was used synonymously with the name Vandals.

=====

Helmold of Bosau, "Chronica Slavorum" ("Chronicle of the Slavs"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmold

Excerpts from Chapter 1, "About the Division of the Slavs":

"(...) Numerous are Slavic nations living along the coast of the Baltic Sea. (...) Around this sea dwell many nations; namely the Danes and the Swedes who are called Normans by us, and who occupy the northern coast. (...) The southern coast is inhabited by Slavic nations; first of them are the Russians; then come the Poles who have Prussians to the north of them, Czechs to the south of them and those who call themselves Moravians and Sorbs. (...) [Slavic] nations are embelished by the sign of Christ. Already for a long time Rus belongs to the believing countries. And Rus is called Ostrogard by the Danes (...) The same country is also called Hunigard, because it is believed that there the Huns had their original seats. And the capital city of this country is Kiev. I have no idea which missionaries converted Ruthenians to the holy faith. But I know for sure one thing, namely that - as it seems - in their customs they are similar to Greeks rather than to Latinists. And the Rus Sea [Black Sea] is a short water bridge to Greece. (...) Bohemia has a king and warlike knights; they have a lot of churches and the people are dedicated to religious practices. Bohemia is divided into two bishoprics - Prague and Olomouc. Poland is a great country of Slavic people; it borders - as they say - with Ruthenia. It is divided into eight bishoprics - Gniezno, Poznań, Włocławek, Płock, Cracow, Wrocław, Lubusz [Lebus] and Wolin. In the past Poland had kings, but now it is ruled by dukes. The kinds of weapons and the methods of combat used by the Poles are the same as those of the Czechs. Called to war, the Poles are brave in battle (...)"

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 02:38 AM
Our "dux Wandalorum Misico" could be R1b too, if there were no NPEs between him and these guys:

http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/news/news%2C413945%2Cgeneticists-have-investigated-the-biological-origin-of-mazovian-princes.html

Interesting that according to the legendary story of the dynasty's origin, the dynasty was descended from a simple commoner (Piast the Wheelwright, or Piast the Farmer - depending on version of the story) who took power from older legendary dynasty, the Popielids.

Piast could also be a maior domus at the court of the Popielids (Polish word for maiordomus is piastun).

There is analogy with Charles Martel, who was also not of royal blood (Carolingians started their career as mayors of the palace at the Merovingian court).

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 06:06 AM
R1b-M269 was probably in Poland before it got to Spain or Britain:

http://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/06/samborzec-beakers-from-maopolska-poland.html

I4251/RISE1122/grave no. 7: 2837-2672 BCE (3990±60 BP, Ki-7926). Male inhumation burial (25-30 years) with northwest-southeast orientation, located on the left side. The grave goods consisted of two vessels (bowl and unornamented cup), a flint blade dagger and a flint scraper. [R1b1a1a2 + H1]

^^^
This is the oldest known R1b from Poland so far, AFAIK.

Bell Beaker from Samborzec, in South-Eastern Poland:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samborzec

=====

The oldest R1b from Britain is few centuries younger than RISE1122:

https://i.imgur.com/TsNYJbw.png

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 06:13 AM
There is also RISE1 (dated to 2865-2578 BCE) from Oblaczkowo, in my region.

It was reported as R1 and later R1b, although I remember that it was disputed because it is a Corded Ware individual, and probably the oldest one.

R1b samples from Samborzec and Oblaczkowo seem to be older than R1a Corded Ware expansion.

=====

By the way, if - hypothetically - my R1b (or at least Piast R1b) is directly descended from RISE1 (Oblaczkowo), now that would give "we won't forsake the land we came from" a whole new meaning, 4000-5000 years in the same place: :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIDq7vDXpE0

Just kidding. I don't mind having Jewish, Iberian, Germanic, Celtic, whatever Y-DNA - as long as we find out which theory is true.

Bollox79
12-03-2018, 12:38 PM
It could expand in Germanic migrations, but most likely was originally Celtic and later some carriers of L617 could be Germanized.

P312 is generally not Germanic (U106 is Germanic) and the highest concentration of L617 within Britain is in Cornwall, AFAIK.

As of December 2016, there were at least seven families from Cornwall with L617 - more than in any other region of Britain.

=====

As for Sephardic Jews - they are not of native Iberian origin, they came to Iberia from Italy and Eastern Mediterranean.

So even if some Sephardic Jew was L617, it had to be someone descended from Native Iberian converts to Judaism.

Tomenable,

I recently was made aware of my closest match to date - by the means of being FGC14840+ and A14020- (all other lines in FGC14840 are also positive for A14020) and Dr. Iain McDonald dating that FGC14840 group to about best guess 573 B.C. with a 95% interval of 1234 BC - 6 AD in his most recent draft of the King's Cluster DF98 draft (but that was from a while ago and needs more updating!). I hope this new match (who I hope will take a NGS test - he only has tested SNP packs through YSEQ) will match me on some more SNPs to get us into a solid time period in the A.D. times. His surname is Polish and is the same as a Noble family under the coat of Arms of Cholewa, but earlier on there were several surname changes and his MDKA is actually from the area of Warmia/Ermland and territory that the Teutonic Order controlled after they first invaded since about the 1300s A.D. I'd be interested to see if he and I match at anymore SNPs. The only two other FGC14840+ samples that are European (as apposed to Americans who probably descent via the Isles - colonial settlers in America) are two Swedes and they are also A14020+ while myself and new match are A14020-. Dr. Iain has A14020 dated to about best guess 480 B.C. and 95%: 1114 BC - 93 AD.

Concerning my own research of my Weaver line in Pennsylvania - statistically speaking - it's much more likely to be German (Hessen or Prussian) based on the Weaver families that I can find family trees for at ancestry (ones that don't have a Y-DNA result - all the other Weaver families that do have a result are not DF98)... and even one who shows up in my autosomal cousin match from Pennsylvania - they are from Northern Germany aka Lower Saxony - which I think would make sense given DF98's link to Wettin and Saxony - but without the Y-DNA result it's hard to be sure that it the one, but as I said statistically speaking my male line is more likely to be German even though a distant relative who first started research on my Weaver line (he is deceased) said of the 4th GGF that he was "said to be of English repute."

Anyway - just that data alone makes it more likely he is "more likely" of German descent (in association with the Order and German immigrants/settlers?)... but that line of descent would be based on how closely we match past FGC14840 (if we do at all) and what time period it gets us to... in order to tentatively associate it with a "culture" or tribal group etc, but ultimately we need him to do more testing. He has said he would, but is reluctant to take the Big Y since it's is become outdated. I hope that if he does take a newer Y-test such as the YElite, or even a whole genome, that we can indeed compare his Y-DNA SNPs to my variants to see if we share anymore past FGC14840...

Thought you might be interested in that since you are from Poland ;-). Cheers!

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 01:43 PM
I recently was made aware of my closest match to date - by the means of being FGC14840+ and A14020- (all other lines in FGC14840 are also positive for A14020) and Dr. Iain McDonald dating that FGC14840 group to about best guess 573 B.C. with a 95% interval of 1234 BC - 6 AD in his most recent draft of the King's Cluster DF98 draft (but that was from a while ago and needs more updating!). I hope this new match (who I hope will take a NGS test - he only has tested SNP packs through YSEQ) will match me on some more SNPs to get us into a solid time period in the A.D. times. His surname is Polish and is the same as a Noble family under the coat of Arms of Cholewa (...)

Bollox, one of two Roman era U106 gladiators from Eburacum (York) was R1b-DF98.

The reason why I'm mentioning this is because that DF98 guy actually had some autosomal connection to modern Poles & Lithuanians:

https://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/extref/ncomms10326-s1.pdf

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

http://i.imgur.com/I4nneUr.png

^^^
Especially those two U106 samples (6DRIF-3 with DF98, and 3DRIF-16 with S497):

http://i.imgur.com/2oB32cg.png

^^^
There is a rumour that one of Wielbark culture samples from Poland is R1b-U106:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10383-Wielbark-R1b-U106

It is from Drozdowo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozdowo,_Płońsk_County


(...) but earlier on there were several surname changes and his MDKA is actually from the area of Warmia/Ermland and territory that the Teutonic Order controlled after they first invaded since about the 1300s A.D. (...)

Wielbark culture included also parts of what later became Southern Warmia:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Location-of-archaeological-sites-of-Wielbark-culture-in-the-Lake-Lanskie-area-1_fig4_277489382

"Location of archaeological sites of Wielbark culture in the Lake Łańskie area; 1 – Wielbark culture, 2 – Przeworsk culture (after Cieśliński 2009, modified)". Olsztyn is the capital city of the region of Warmia:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jacek_Madeja/publication/277489382/figure/fig4/AS:341774645121040@1458496833277/Location-of-archaeological-sites-of-Wielbark-culture-in-the-Lake-Lanskie-area-1.png

^^^
Ethnic structure of County Olsztyn (Allenstein) back in year 1825 was 25530 (= 84%) Poles and 4927 (= 16%) Germans:

https://i.imgur.com/IOW5Rvb.png

^^^
But bear in mind, that since the departue of the Goths until the arrival of the Teutonic Knights it was Baltic-speaking land:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15296-Extinction-of-Old-Prussians


(...) I'd be interested to see if he and I match at anymore SNPs. The only two other FGC14840+ samples that are European (as apposed to Americans who probably descent via the Isles - colonial settlers in America) are two Swedes and they are also A14020+ while myself and new match are A14020-. Dr. Iain has A14020 dated to about best guess 480 B.C. and 95%: 1114 BC - 93 AD. (...)

If the only 4 samples are two Swedes, one Pole and you, then IMO the mostly likely connection are the Goths (Wielbark):

Wielbark culture expansion map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Wielbark_culture_expansion.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Wielbark_culture_expansion.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Origins_200_AD.png


(...) Anyway - just that data alone makes it more likely he is "more likely" of German descent (in association with the Order and German immigrants/settlers?)... but ultimately we need him to do more testing. (...)

According to user Olszak-Przytycki from genealodzy.pl / gazeta.pl forums, only ~5% of Poles have German origin surnames*:

https://genealodzy.pl/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-49092-postorder-asc-sid-863c70402414f45ce6562134459aa81c.phtml

On the other hand, almost 20% of Poles have R1b. Do the maths yourself.

No reason to involve Teutonic knights when you had Goths in the same area.

I also know based on FTDNA Projects that a lot of East Germans have Slavic subclades of R1a despite having Germanic-sounding surnames. So you can have a surname of German origin and be R1a like for example Rytels (originally Rittels): http://rytel.org/

One of my threads about Y-DNA among East Germans. Here about East Prussia:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8115-East-Prussian-including-Old-Prussian-(West-Baltic)-R1a-subclades&p=175464&viewfull=1#post175464

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1712-N1c-in-the-Balts&p=176774&viewfull=1#post176774

====

*Not sure how reliable his estimate is. I haven't seen any proper scientific data about % ethnic origins of Polish surnames.

Tomenable
12-03-2018, 02:24 PM
^^^
Percentages of foreign origin surnames among ethnic Poles according to Olszak-Przytycki's amateur research:

German - ca. 5% (as far as I know frequency of Slavic origin surnames among Germans is higher)
Ukrainian - ca. 4.5%
Belarusian - ca. 1%
Czech - ca. 0.5%

He also mentioned several other types of foreign surnames but all with frequencies below 0.1%:

Russian - 0.04%
Slovak - 0.03%
Sorb - 0.008%

I'm aware that many types of surnames are missing here (for example Old Prussian, Vlach, Lithuanian, Scottish).

And this has to be taken with caution, because these estimates are not based on proper scientific research.

====

I counted about 10% frequency of Germanic-sounding surnames among the list of Polish insurgents who died in the uprising against Germany in 1918-1919 (you can't suspect them for being German-identified, if they fought against German rule in Prussian Poland):

https://depot.ceon.pl/handle/123456789/920

List in the spoiler:

8. Albrecht Stanisław
36. Apelbaum Roman
40. Bajer Leon
83. Bauza Jerzy
97. Becker Stanisław
104. Bernau Kazimierz
112. Bierwagen Henryk
145. Böhm Władysław
169. Bötcher Ignacy
170. Brajer Jan
171. Brauer Michał
172. Braun Franciszek
179. Brungart Stanisław
254. Codrow (mother's surname: Szulc) Józef
294. Eichstaedt Stefan
300. Deier Michał
305. Deutsch Kazimierz
306. Deutsch Kazimierz (2nd)
317. Doecker Jan
353. Düsterhöf Michał
368. Estrych Augustyn
373. Felgebel Leon
375. Fender Brunon
379. Fietzner Władysław
388. Finc Ignacy
390. Fiszer Edward
391. Fiszer Józef
392. Flieger Stefan
398. Franke Władysław
411. Frischke Marian
412. Froehlich
413. Fromm Wiktor
423. Galant Wincenty
441. Gehrka Władysław
449. Gimpertowicz Józef
455. Glasner Wacław
456. Glüger
510. Gross Konrad
519. Grützmacher Edmund
539. Gunderman Tadeusz
547. Haller Czesław
554. Hasse Konstanty
556. Heinsch Jan
557. Heintsch Augustyn
559. Heller Aleksander
562. Henke Wiktor
563. Henschke Józef
565. Herzog Leon
567. Hoffman Marian
568. Hoffman Michał
570. Hoppel Wincenty
581. Ikert Józef
582. Ilart Jan
588. Jachman Walenty
605. Janke Stanisław
611. Jansen Henryk
632. Jauer Józef
635. Jenchen Antoni
657. Juhnke Leon
691. Kalke W.
708. Karge Józef
720. Katella
721. Kaus Jan
722. Kaus Władysław
723. Kauzug Stanisław
748. Kierstein Roman Franciszek
754. Klatt Jan
756. Kleiber Stanisław
764. Klinger Jan
778. Knak Wojciech
779. Knappe Leon
780. Koch Henryk
781. Koch Stanisław
805. Konitzer Leon
830. Koschel Karol
875. Kracner Franciszek
879. Kranc Alojzy
880. Krauke Andrzej
881. Krause Edmund
882. Krause Michał
883. Krenc Leonard
884. Krentz Wojciech
935. Kuffel Ludwik
953. Kunert Józef
965. Kurzerl Józef
971. Kutschenreiter Otto
983. Kycler Walenty
985. Lasch (Lacek)
986. Lachera Piotr
987. Lachera Stanisław
988. Lacherny Walenty
990. Lang Wiktor
992. Lautenszlager Grzegorz
995. Leister Wawrzyn
997. Lekier Wincenty
1017. Liebest (Lübest)
1026. Lorenc Andrzej
1027. Lorenc Wacław
1081. Maeusel (Maensel) Seweryn
1082. Miaeusel Stanisław
1090. Majerowicz Mieczysław
1114. Mann Korneliusz
1128. Martinek Jan
1156. Meller Aleksander
1158. Mencel Jan
1159. Mencel Stanisław
1160. Mencel Wincenty
1165. Mettler Władysław
1197. Minczke Paweł
1209. Moellenbrock Józef
1212. Morison Franciszek
1221. Müller Ferdynand
1222. Müller Marian
1223. Münschke Paweł
1473. Otto Jan
1485. Paetzold Stanisław
1497. Pauter (Panter) Franciszek
1503. Paschke (Paszke) Edmund
1504. Paschke (Paszke) Józef
1536. Peterknehl Adolf
1568. Pikel Józef
1592. Pohl Stanisław
1615. Preis Aleksander
1637. Putz Stanisław
1666. Rau Jan
1667. Rausch Władysław
1671. Reich Piotr
1672. Reinsz Wincenty
1675. Richter Franciszek
1676. Rissmann Wiktor
1687. Romel Walenty
1726. Rysman (Rissmann) Wiktor
1727. Ryster Władysław
1738. Schmidt (Szmyt) Franciszek
1739. Seiler Maksymilian
1740. Seker (Secker) Wincenty
1746. Sewohl Anna
1748. Siebert Stanisław
1803. Snella Franciszek
1804. Snella Jan
1805. Snella Wincenty
1822. Sommer Franciszek
1827. Specht Józef
1828. Speier (Speyer) Jakub
1829. Springer Jan
1848. Steinberg Paweł
1850. Stelter Ernest
1861. Streck Gustaw
1868. Stürmer Andrzej
1901. Szeffler
1902. Szefner Franciszek
1904. Szemberg Marian
1913. Szmidereit Michał
1914. Szmytkowski Władysław
1920. Szrajter Władysław
1922. Szturmer Andrzej
1926. Szulc Stefan
1927. Szulczyński Jan
1928. Szulz Stanisław
1929. Szulz Władysław
1931. Szwajerek Marcin
1955. Szymlet Stanisław
1986. Tabat Tomasz
1993. Tamul (Tammel) Szczepan
2000. Tetzlaff Władysław
2001. Thiede Bruno
2002. Thomas Stanisław
2006. Tomas Henryk
2007. Tomas Jan
2034. Tycner Walenty
2049. Vogt Piotr
2055. Wachtel Mariusz Józef
2056. Wagnerowski Marcin
2077. Wandt Leon
2078. Wangenmann Józef
2096. Weber Antoni
2097. Weber Marian
2098. Wechterowicz Józef
2099. Wegnerowski Marcin
2100. Weiman Franciszek
2101. Weinkauf Franciszek
2102. Weis Jan
2103. Weis Kazimierz
2104. Weiss Franciszek
2105. Wejman Adam
2106. Wekert Edmund
2107. Welke Ignacy
2110. Wendland Franciszek
2125. Wick Ludwik
2150. Wilhelm Franciszek
2151. Wilhelm Stefan
2152. Wilke Benjamin
2174. Witmann Ludwik
2175. Wittmann Stefan
2176. Wiza Wacław
2177. Wize Jędrzej
2260. Zerbst Julian
2279. Zyber Wojciech

Webb
12-03-2018, 02:29 PM
Our "dux Wandalorum Misico" could be R1b too, if there were no NPEs between him and these guys:

http://scienceinpoland.pap.pl/en/news/news%2C413945%2Cgeneticists-have-investigated-the-biological-origin-of-mazovian-princes.html

Interesting that according to the legendary story of the dynasty's origin, the dynasty was descended from a simple commoner (Piast the Wheelwright, or Piast the Farmer - depending on version of the story) who took power from older legendary dynasty, the Popielids.

Piast could also be a maior domus at the court of the Popielids (Polish word for maiordomus is piastun).

There is analogy with Charles Martel, who was also not of royal blood (Carolingians started their career as mayors of the palace at the Merovingian court).

It is funny that you mentioned this, because my FGC23196 block mate is a Valois. I don't think he is the Valois from the Capetians, because he claims descent from a Vincent de Valois Crepy, who was a French knight that fought for King Jaime of Spain during the Reconquest. Crepy-en-Valois is a small commune located in metropolitan Paris. So Valois would be a place name type of surname.

Webb
12-03-2018, 02:49 PM
I actually just realized there is a FGC21115 kit that is German in the DF27 project. He is Z2552>DF81>FGC2115. According to Ytree.net this block has an age of 150AD.

razyn
12-03-2018, 03:37 PM
Razyn and Purickis,

I sent you a private message related to the possible connection between Polish and Lithuanian branches of L617.

I sent you a PM about it because I prefer not to publish my surname publicly here.

I saw and read it, but didn't reply because I don't want to be bogged down in someone else's surname research, unless maybe it's from some county in the US colonies of western Europe with which I'm already pretty familiar.

However, in the PM you mentioned Pinsk, and that made me wonder whether you have seen my bold assertions that P312 originated "closer to Pinsk than to Barcelona." Most usefully contextualized on the following thread, or "poll;" I think those are silly, but sometimes participate in silliness if the serious stuff has gone boring. (Now is such a time.) So: razyn's tip of the hat to Pinsk -- https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15293-Which-of-the-following-choices-is-your-best-guess-for-where-P312-originated&p=505620&viewfull=1#post505620

Bollox79
12-03-2018, 03:58 PM
Bollox, one of two Roman era U106 gladiators from Eburacum (York) was R1b-DF98.

The reason why I'm mentioning this is because that DF98 guy actually had some autosomal connection to modern Poles & Lithuanians:

https://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/extref/ncomms10326-s1.pdf

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10326

http://i.imgur.com/I4nneUr.png

^^^
Especially those two U106 samples (6DRIF-3 with DF98, and 3DRIF-16 with S497):

http://i.imgur.com/2oB32cg.png

^^^
There is a rumour that one of Wielbark culture samples from Poland is R1b-U106:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10383-Wielbark-R1b-U106

It is from Drozdowo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drozdowo,_Płońsk_County



Wielbark culture included also parts of what later became Southern Warmia:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Location-of-archaeological-sites-of-Wielbark-culture-in-the-Lake-Lanskie-area-1_fig4_277489382

"Location of archaeological sites of Wielbark culture in the Lake Łańskie area; 1 – Wielbark culture, 2 – Przeworsk culture (after Cieśliński 2009, modified)". Olsztyn is the capital city of the region of Warmia:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jacek_Madeja/publication/277489382/figure/fig4/AS:341774645121040@1458496833277/Location-of-archaeological-sites-of-Wielbark-culture-in-the-Lake-Lanskie-area-1.png

^^^
Ethnic structure of County Olsztyn (Allenstein) back in year 1825 was 25530 (= 84%) Poles and 4927 (= 16%) Germans:

https://i.imgur.com/IOW5Rvb.png

^^^
But bear in mind, that since the departue of the Goths until the arrival of the Teutonic Knights it was Baltic-speaking land:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15296-Extinction-of-Old-Prussians



If the only 4 samples are two Swedes, one Pole and you, then IMO the mostly likely connection are the Goths (Wielbark):

Wielbark culture expansion map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Wielbark_culture_expansion.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4b/Wielbark_culture_expansion.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Origins_200_AD.png



According to user Olszak-Przytycki from genealodzy.pl / gazeta.pl forums, only ~5% of Poles have German origin surnames*:

https://genealodzy.pl/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-49092-postorder-asc-sid-863c70402414f45ce6562134459aa81c.phtml

On the other hand, almost 20% of Poles have R1b. Do the maths yourself.

No reason to involve Teutonic knights when you had Goths in the same area.

I also know based on FTDNA Projects that a lot of East Germans have Slavic subclades of R1a despite having Germanic-sounding surnames. So you can have a surname of German origin and be R1a like for example Rytels (originally Rittels): http://rytel.org/

One of my threads about Y-DNA among East Germans. Here about East Prussia:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8115-East-Prussian-including-Old-Prussian-(West-Baltic)-R1a-subclades&p=175464&viewfull=1#post175464

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1712-N1c-in-the-Balts&p=176774&viewfull=1#post176774

====

*Not sure how reliable his estimate is. I haven't seen any proper scientific data about % ethnic origins of Polish surnames.

Thanks for the posts and all that info!! Yes I'm aware of the U106 Roman gladiator's connection to the Baltic (noticed that early on) and also 6drif-3 in my signature is Mr. DF98. In fact he matches that sample from Unetice Jinonice at a couple more - S1911 and 1894/S1900 under DF98.

Also thank you for reminding me that there was a rumor of U106 in Wielbark site at the village Drozdowo, in NE Poland as I think I had seen it, but had forgotten about it. Anymore come of that research or has anyone heard anything?

The two Swedes, the Roman Gladiator 6drif-3, and some American colonial families with probably English roots are in the group above FGC14840 - here: https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1330

The FGC14840 block has Staples, Via, and Alley (all probably from the Isles and related to me only to the FGC14840 level - they carry on as closer matches to each other under A14020). The two Swedes are also A14020 and match the others at that SNP, but then break off on their own (they are closer related than the A14020 level). Then it's just me and the gentleman from Warmia at A14020- so far (as I said he needs more testing to see if he matches any of my personal variants)... he has a "ski" name now, but earlier it was another Polish surname and possibly a German one? That is what he is trying to determine - who his ancestors were past probably 1600s - if they Polish or German and if they were local or not I suppose.

"IF" we are descended from Goths from Sweden (conjecture)... then I wonder what context got 6drif-3 to NE England in the Roman period...?

Once again thanks for the info!! Cheers - Charlie

P.S. I also hesitate to assign DF98 to Germanic tribesman even though House of Wettin is positive for it... since we haven't technically found DF98 in a "Germanic migration" context yet like the other sub groups of U106 (including DF98's brother group DF96 in the Baivarii sample from Altheim and a Z305 result for Baivuarii sample AED 106 from Altenerding - Z305 being ancestral to DF98 and DF96 - you can see it in the list of SNPs in my signature).

Tomenable
12-06-2018, 06:45 PM
Data from the German Project about regional distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups in Germany:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15998-German-Regional-Y-DNA-Distribution

Their sample size for former eastern German provinces like Posen is 255. Not sure if they included only ethnic Germans?

I am part of the German Project but I specified my sample's ethnicity as Polish. Anyway I contribute to lower % of R1a.

Purickis_Lithuania
01-05-2019, 09:58 PM
The Romanovs are L617, really ??? If they are some other branch of M269, then we are not related (at least not after the Bronze Age).

What about the Piast dynasty of Poland? Bones of two Mazovian Piasts from the 1500s were tested R1b.

They are late Piasts so there could be NPEs. But I joined the FTDNA Piast Dynasty Project just in case.

Romanovs are R-M269 it was determined. Only 10 or so markers were released to the public. I don't think deeper level testing was done.

Purickis_Lithuania
01-05-2019, 10:40 PM
Good stuff. I have a Master's in East European Studies. Frost is the recognized expert on the Poland-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

JoeyP37
01-05-2019, 11:35 PM
Actually it was the Romanov dynasty descended in the male line from the House of Holstein-Gottorp that was tested as R1b, not the original Romanovs descended from Nikita Romanovich, brother-in-law of Ivan the Terrible. It would be unlikely that they were R1b, as they were ethnically Russian from the Grand Duchy of Moscow.

Purickis_Lithuania
01-06-2019, 07:42 PM
Actually it was the Romanov dynasty descended in the male line from the House of Holstein-Gottorp that was tested as R1b, not the original Romanovs descended from Nikita Romanovich, brother-in-law of Ivan the Terrible. It would be unlikely that they were R1b, as they were ethnically Russian from the Grand Duchy of Moscow.

Yes, I was referring to the contemporary German Romanovs. I have a DNA connection to a direct ancestor of Rurikid himself but that would not be a paternal peerage only a common ancestor or two probably several hundred years old or more. My match is listed in the Rurikid FTDNA project under 'closest cousins'.

favouriteslave
04-17-2019, 08:59 PM
razyn,

My father who is 222261 at FTDNA tested with YSEQ and we found him to be DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z2552 > YP4295 > A6457 > BY3232 !!! His earliest known ancestor is from Spain. I see on the Big Y tree there is a Colombian, a Few English, a Maltese and the well know Van Tuyl family. Has there been any other discoveries about By3232 that you know of?

razyn
04-17-2019, 09:50 PM
Sorry, I don't keep up with the latest branching discoveries, just try to monitor the conversations. Lucas McCaw runs the DF27 project now. Besides the Big Tree, the best other place to look (and you could ask this question) would be that project's "activity feed."

Webb
04-18-2019, 01:29 PM
razyn,

My father who is 222261 at FTDNA tested with YSEQ and we found him to be DF27/S250 > ZZ12 > Z2552 > YP4295 > A6457 > BY3232 !!! His earliest known ancestor is from Spain. I see on the Big Y tree there is a Colombian, a Few English, a Maltese and the well know Van Tuyl family. Has there been any other discoveries about By3232 that you know of?

According to YTree, which uses Ian McDonald's aging method, BY3232 was formed at roughly 197AD. YFull has BY3232 formed and the TMRCA date as 4300 ybp. At YFull this whole branch has the same formed date and TMRCA date, so I don't know which calculation is most accurate. YTree has A6467, which is one block above BY3232 as being formed at 84BC. One block above A6467 is YP4295, which has a formed date of 282BC. This block includes kits from Sweden, Czech Republic, Belgium, Britain, and Spain. Then your block, BY3232, which you are already aware of. Block A13148, which is right under A6467 has the Belgian, Brit, and Spanish kit is listed as being formed at 65BC. So according to Ytree, this whole block isn't very old. I can't tell where the Spanish kits are from, though. If the Basque region, then I have a theory. If not, then my theory gets scrapped.

Tomenable
10-02-2019, 01:21 AM
Romanovs are R-M269 it was determined.

We aren't related to Romanovs my friend. But one of my Spanish matches has a surname of Gothic origin (at least I think so).

It is much more likely that we are descended from some Goths/Vandals/Lugians/Celts that stayed in this part of Europe.

Or we (at least me) might be descended from some Roman soldier who settled in Kuyavia, where legions were present:

http://archaeologyinbulgaria.com/2018/05/10/first-ever-traces-of-roman-military-presence-in-poland-discovered-by-archaeologists-in-kujawy-region/

https://polska.pl/history/history-poland/archaeologists-we-have-proof-roman-legions-presence-poland/

^^^
This kind of matches what SNP-Tracker claims for me (that my Y-DNA came from Roman Gallia during Roman times):

https://i.imgur.com/9kTcQty.png

PS:

Can you please add a Lithuanian flag to your sample on YFull? It feels lonely being the sore thumb from East Europe.

But you know there are two of us. We are taking over this haplogroup! :D

Edit:

Okay, that is not you but the other Lithuanian guy. You are currently waiting for your Big Y results. That's awesome!

Good luck with your results.

Tomenable
11-12-2019, 05:28 PM
(...)

Things are getting exciting! I can see that you've received your Big Y results and joined YFull.

But look who else we got there - our subclade just got also one new member from Ukraine!

Garimund
11-12-2019, 05:53 PM
Things are getting exciting! I can see that you've received your Big Y results and joined YFull.

But look who else we got there - our subclade just got also one new member from Ukraine!

L617 has some odd distribution. We’re missing way too many pieces to the puzzle when it comes to DF27 in general.

sktibo
11-13-2019, 06:02 AM
We aren't related to Romanovs my friend. But one of my Spanish matches has a surname of Gothic origin (at least I think so).

It is much more likely that we are descended from some Goths/Vandals/Lugians/Celts that stayed in this part of Europe.


FWIW Tomenable my surname (French) is supposedly Gothic in origin and I've long wondered about the Goths being a possibility for part of the DF27 spread.

EastAnglian
11-21-2019, 09:46 AM
My L617 clade originates in Cornwall.

I suspect that the starting point for L617 was central Europe, branching off from there.

Garimund
11-21-2019, 09:53 PM
Have you for certain traced your paternal line to Cornwall? I’m L617 and my paternal line from as far as I can tell traces to Sussex or London.

EastAnglian
11-28-2019, 01:01 PM
Have you for certain traced your paternal line to Cornwall? I’m L617 and my paternal line from as far as I can tell traces to Sussex or London.

SNP matches, I match three Cornish Families.

I'm not sure at what point my ancestor left the region, I think it was around 700/800 years ago.