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hintsu
07-19-2015, 03:04 PM
I'm a guy of primarily North-Norwegian and Eastern Finnish ancestry living in Southern-Norway, where the majority of ethnic Norwegians have light-brown, blonde and ginger hair, and very little eye brows(some look like cancer patients).
I have noticed that the further north we get, the higher the amount of brown and even black-looking hair,
as well as more eyebrow-growth(although also more noticeable due to the dark hair), even among ethnic Norwegians(not sami).

Some examples.

Me and my family:
http://i58.tinypic.com/ebbs4m.jpg
http://i62.tinypic.com/iekz0y.jpg

Tim Sparv:
http://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/fl_keep_iptc/w_1600/w_1600,h_899,c_crop,x_0,y_97/w_700/v1416241856/14-svyle-199796546a22908f653.jpg

Jarmo Mäkinen:
http://is11.snstatic.fi/img/978/1288495919664.jpg

Andreas af Enehjelm:
http://ilarge.lisimg.com/image/3562138/968full-andreas-af-enehjelm.jpg

Juju(artist):
http://data1.whicdn.com/images/102963706/large.jpg

Charlotte Kalla(north swede):
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2Ehdgy6wMrk/maxresdefault.jpg

Steinar Albrigtsen(north norwegian):
http://www.frelsesarmeen.no/filestore/Bilder/Enhetene/Krigsropet/Bilder/Arkiv/Arkiv-kjendis/2001/albrigtsenartSS.jpg

Lars iver strand(north norwegian):
http://www.sandefjordfotball.no/di/library/sandefjord/f2/fd/lars-iver-strand_1beo2euyxoe7i1spm27vkdj3tz.jpg?t=551628877&w=650&h=366&quality=90

Some might jump to conclusions that it's all Sami-admixture, but could there also be that the Northern parts of Norway and Sweden, and the Finns, all contain ancient(with more dark features) north-european admixture(not counting the finnish and saami siberian component)?

ADW_1981
07-20-2015, 07:27 PM
Some of them have very noticeable epicanthic folds which seems to peak in the Scandinavian countries. Otherwise, those who lack these features, look somewhat British/French. How many of these north Norwegians are actually the original people of the area? Perhaps they are actually immigrants and have origins further south. I've seen a number of P312+ descent people (L21 included) turn up in far NW Norway.

EDIT: Aren't Saami the ones with the epicanthic folds? When I google images they look much more Russian than the folks you posted here, at least the last couple guys.

hintsu
07-21-2015, 05:03 PM
Some of them have very noticeable epicanthic folds which seems to peak in the Scandinavian countries. Otherwise, those who lack these features, look somewhat British/French. How many of these north Norwegians are actually the original people of the area? Perhaps they are actually immigrants and have origins further south. I've seen a number of P312+ descent people (L21 included) turn up in far NW Norway.

Not a single ethnic Norwegian are the pure ancient peoples of that area(The hunter-gatherers). All Norwegians likely have quite an extensive German, French, British and even a little southern-european admixture(which have mutated over the years into somewhat distinct Scandinavian DNA).
What makes this interesting, is that the areas with the most west-european ancestry(Britain and west-mediterranean/Spanish/French), western and southern Norway, seems to have the highest amount of blonde, ginger and light-brown hair.




EDIT: Aren't Saami the ones with the epicanthic folds? When I google images they look much more Russian than the folks you posted here, at least the last couple guys.
Yep, some Finns and Saami got the epicanthic folds.

Kurki
03-11-2018, 06:24 AM
This came up in a search, I see it's a pretty old post. But part of my family was north Swede, darker skin, dark brown hair and eyes similar to the Swedish woman you posted. There is newer research on these differences. North Swedes and southern Swedes are different genetically. (I have not seen much for Norway but would assume similar; I am researching Sweden). There can be possibly a little Sami. But more generally the north is less Germanic, possibly less European farmer background and more retained hunter-gatherer because the farmers did not establish well beyond the south, likely due to the difficulty of adapting farming for the north (this is the theory based on the DNA patterns supposedly; there is farmer DNA but at much different proportions).

It's interesting GedMatch has some references for West Norwegian and East but not North or South. Eurogenes does have South and North Sweden (I match both as my top two populations) and MDLP 23 has a Swede Sami population (which I also match, but after general Swede). I have not seen a North Norwegian reference population. But northern Norway is possibly similar to Northern Sweden in ancient DNA differences to the south of the country.

billybees
03-24-2018, 05:18 PM
I've pronounced epicanthic folds, predominate on my left side, slightly less on my right. Northern European ancestry, possibly Scandinavia. Very light skin, blue eyes.
I've wondered about the folds as they've become more obvious as I age.

Kontidak
03-26-2018, 06:28 PM
Sami admixture with other ethnicities isn't that common, so it's most likely due to the other reasons posted here.

Helves
03-27-2018, 04:52 PM
Northern Norwegians are quite different genetically compared to Northern Swedes. Most Northern Swedes have a decent amount of assimilated Finnish/Sami ancestry. I wouldn't even be suprised if Northern Norwegians have less Finnish and Sami input than even the central parts of Sweden(Svealand). Some people from Svealand almost come out 50% Norwegian 50% Southwest Finnish on Gedmatch. I think it's mostly due to the Norwegian North was settled earlier than that of Sweden.

lukaszM
03-27-2018, 05:09 PM
I think it's mostly due to the Norwegian North was settled earlier than that of Sweden.

Yes in my opinion climate is little better (sea climate) on the Norwegian coast than in Norrland (continental). So it could be a reason.

Nibelung
03-27-2018, 05:12 PM
Yes in my opinion climate is little better (sea climate) on the Norwegian coast than in Norrland (continental). So it could be a reason.

Exactly the way I see it. More hospitable climate, and more food to eat.

Nino90
08-16-2018, 07:21 AM
Can somebody post North Norwegian gedmatch or other autosomal results?

ph.
08-19-2018, 08:19 AM
Looking at "recent" history, much of Finnmark = "the borderland of the Finns" (where "Finn" was a usual name for Saami people), was sometimes taxed both by Norway, Sweden and Russia. A majority of inland toponyms have Saami origins, but there are good reasons to believe that the Norwegian name of at least one coastal feature up there predates the sea level rise of the past 1000 years (a "sund", narrow bit of sea, which is now dry land).

The description that Ottar gave to the English king indicates Norwegian trading in the north, but not much settlement. It is likely that "southerners" did not make a strong genetic imprint on the small inlalnd population up north at the time of the vikings, but searoutes and trading contacts definitively existed.

Snorre writing in the 1200ds, relates stories of intermittent trade with northern Russia (Bjarmeland) a few hundred years before. There were treaties with the Swedish kings defining the common border as the hills and mountains "Kjölen all the way up to Finnmark". Gjesvaer (on the island of the North cape) is mentioned as the first settlement after Bjarmeland, making it likely that the coast between had nomadic use rather than agriculture or export fisheries.

A slightly later manuscript than that of Snorre Sturlason was written in 1265 by Sturla Thordarsson . This mentions relations with Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Germany the Orkneys, Scotland, the Hebrides, Man,Ireland, England, Germany, Spain and the church in Rome. Not much about the northern parts. One page, however relates that Aleksander, the king of Holmgard (Novgorod) sent representatives to Norway to complain about the "East Karelians" who were due to pay tax to Holmgard but constantly broke the law. Aleksander wanted the Norwegian governor of Finnmark to see to law and order. The Norwegian delegation that went back to Holmgard concluded peace "between the tax lands", "Karelians and Finns should not make war, but the peace did not hold for long".

Tenouos Norwegian power would seem to indicate tenuous Norwegian settlement at least east of the North cape, and probably quite some way southwards in the direction of Lofoten where Ottar lived. Both in Sweden and in Norway, territories up north is still named Nordland=the land in the north -possibly originally indicating that it used to be the northernmost part of the kingdoms, while the northernmost bits of Norway is Finnmark and the north of Sweden and Finnland are still called Lappland - the lands of the Saami..

Later history is very well documented. The German Hansa established more intensive trading links, the "Kontor" in Bergen was a major transit post for fish from the north and imports going northwards. Trading posts that had been small grew to become small villages. The clergy and representatives of the crown came from down south. After Sweden broke out of the brief Scandinavian three crown union , most governance functions were centered in Copenhagen, hence Danish influence came to dominate a long time after the reformation. Many clergy and officials had degrees from universities in German states and the low countries (for instance Rostock and Leyden) occasionally brought back wives and intermarried with local property owners. So, just like in the centuries before, genes were brought from a large circumference .

The Danish king decided to fortify the easternmost outposts and sent millitary contingents up to Finnmark. Trading posts were givern royal "octroy" monopoly on all local trade, imports and exports. In one case settlers from Österdalen in the south were given land up north at Målselv in order to solidify the Norwegian presence. Extremely profitable -but risky- seasonal fisheries attracted boats from far away .

All in all, the demographic changes up north in the last few hundred years must have resulted in substantial genetic mixing, not just among the ruling elites but including the descendants of the scattered settlers and nomads that used to live there.

p.

ph.
08-19-2018, 08:23 AM
Looking at "recent" history, much of Finnmark = "the borderland of the Finns" (where "Finn" was a usual name for Saami people), was sometimes taxed both by Norway, Sweden and Russia. A majority of inland toponyms have Saami origins, but there are good reasons to believe that the Norwegian name of at least one coastal feature up there predates the sea level rise of the past 1000 years (a "sund", narrow bit of sea, which is now dry land).

The description that Ottar gave to the English king indicates Norwegian trading in the north, but not much settlement. It is likely that "southerners" did not make a strong genetic imprint on the small inlalnd population up north at the time of the vikings, but searoutes and trading contacts definitively existed.

Snorre writing in the 1200ds, relates stories of intermittent trade with northern Russia (Bjarmeland) a few hundred years before. There were treaties with the Swedish kings defining the common border as the hills and mountains "Kjölen all the way up to Finnmark". Gjesvaer (on the island of the North cape) is mentioned as the first settlement after Bjarmeland, making it likely that the coast between had nomadic use rather than agriculture or export fisheries.

A slightly later manuscript than that of Snorre Sturlason was written in 1265 by Sturla Thordarsson . This mentions relations with Iceland, Denmark, Sweden, Germany the Orkneys, Scotland, the Hebrides, Man,Ireland, England, Germany, Spain and the church in Rome. Not much about the northern parts. One page, however relates that Aleksander, the king of Holmgard (Novgorod) sent representatives to Norway to complain about the "East Karelians" who were due to pay tax to Holmgard but constantly broke the law. Aleksander wanted the Norwegian governor of Finnmark to see to law and order. The Norwegian delegation that went back to Holmgard concluded peace "between the tax lands", "Karelians and Finns should not make war, but the peace did not hold for long".

Tenouos Norwegian power would seem to indicate tenuous Norwegian settlement at least east of the North cape, and probably quite some way southwards in the direction of Lofoten where Ottar lived. Both in Sweden and in Norway, territories up north is still named Nordland=the land in the north -possibly originally indicating that it used to be the northernmost part of the kingdoms, while the northernmost bits of Norway is Finnmark and the north of Sweden and Finnland are still called Lappland - the lands of the Saami..

Later history is very well documented. The German Hansa established more intensive trading links, the "Kontor" in Bergen was a major transit post for fish from the north and imports going northwards. Trading posts that had been small grew to become small villages. The clergy and representatives of the crown came from down south. After Sweden broke out of the brief Scandinavian three crown union , most governance functions were centered in Copenhagen, hence Danish influence came to dominate a long time after the reformation. Many clergy and officials had degrees from universities in German states and the low countries (for instance Rostock and Leyden) occasionally brought back wives and intermarried with local property owners. So, just like in the centuries before, genes were brought from a large circumference .

The Danish king decided to fortify the easternmost outposts and sent millitary contingents up to Finnmark. Trading posts were givern royal "octroy" monopoly on all local trade, imports and exports. In one case settlers from Österdalen in the south were given land up north at Målselv in order to solidify the Norwegian presence. Extremely profitable -but risky- seasonal fisheries attracted boats from far away .

All in all, the demographic changes up north in the last few hundred years must have resulted in substantial genetic mixing, not just among the ruling elites but including the descendants of the scattered settlers and nomads that used to live there.

p.

Snkves
11-03-2018, 11:54 AM
Very simple, they are not Germanic Swedes but Uralic Finns, the examples you gave all have Finnish names. Charlotte Kalla even states that she is a "Tornedalian" which just translates to Finnish.

Search for "Tornedalians" and you will see Charlotte Kalla in a list on the Wikipedia page.

Even if people up North are indeed mixed with Finns and Saamis, those people there are simply pure Finnish immigrants, not related to Swedes or Norwegians.